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[3:58] <spaetz_> *uahhh* mornng everybody
[3:58] * spaetz_ needs coffee
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[4:04] <linyos> good idea
[4:05] <linyos> excuse me while i make some
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[4:15] <linyos> made tea instead
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[4:18] <spaetz> tea is much healthier anyway :)
[4:19] <spaetz> I drink loads of it. But I need a coffee to get started
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[6:56] <nextgens> hi
[7:01] <toad_> hi
[7:01] <toad_> bbiab
[7:02] <spaetz> toad, all my CPU cycles are belong to you (if you need them)
[7:08] <nextgens> toad_: you've got mail
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[7:39] <hobx_> blah
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[8:20] <Ash-Fox> Heh, I discovered at a campus that I work at.. quite a few people there run freenet
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[8:50] <toad_> OUR freenet or some other freenet? there are loads of freenets
[8:50] * toad_ just read Cache Missing for Fun and Profit
[8:50] <toad_> actually quite interesting
[8:51] <toad_> and it portrays a mindset that would be helpful if we ever thought about implementing any sort of mobile code
[8:56] <nextgens> toad_: did you use any node below 20 yesterday?
[8:56] <toad_> nope
[8:56] <nextgens> ok :)
[8:56] <toad_> just 32 down to 22 like you said
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[8:56] <toad_> i'm not supposed to use 1-21 :)
[9:01] <nextgens> we are having problems with them, that"s why ;)
[9:01] <nextgens> n28 is down
[9:01] <nextgens> I'm restarting it :-$
[9:02] <nextgens> did you use it ?
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[9:04] <nextgens> toad_: was a sim. running on n28? you will have to restart it :-$
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[9:18] <toad_> nextgens: :(
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[9:48] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/latest-full.png
[9:49] <toad_> that's ALL the simulations
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[9:49] <toad_> the bottom bunch are either random routing or ian_crazy_one
[9:49] <toad_> which amount to the same thing
[9:51] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/latest-tsuccess_times_pfailure-200x20x20-variable_reqs_per_cycle.png
[9:51] <toad_> here's the recent work
[9:53] * toad_ updates tech list
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[10:02] <toad_> Subject: Re: [Tech] More simulations
[10:02] <toad_> everyone have a look at that mail
[10:02] <toad_> and the graphs linked
[10:02] <toad_> including sanity :)
[10:02] <toad_> it's going to be a while before orange reaches 10K
[10:03] <toad_> but when it does it might well be 4% above red (the baseline)
[10:04] <toad_> but we need it to be up around 90%, at least, for this to be viable...
[10:06] <toad_> hmmm
[10:06] <toad_> i can't connect to jabber
[10:06] <toad_> and i can't connect to the machine that relays me to the cluster either
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[10:08] <toad_> i can't connect to jabber...
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[10:21] <toad_> gah
[10:21] <toad_> i need to get into the cluster...
[10:22] <toad_> and nextgens (and his computer) have been abducted by aliens...
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[10:29] * Ash-Fox uses amessage.info for jabber
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[10:38] <nextgens> toad_: I m back on jabber
[10:40] <nextgens> brb
[10:47] <hobx_> stupid shit
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[10:53] <spaetz> interesting. Why does red seem to flatten out respectively increase again for large n?
[10:53] <spaetz> or is it just a random glitch?
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[11:52] <toad_> argh
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[12:44] <nextgens> toad_: ?
[12:44] <toad_> nextgens: hi
[12:44] <nextgens> I m back:)
[12:45] <toad_> yay
[12:45] <toad_> ssh: connect to host cypres3.dyndns.org port 20022: No route to host
[12:45] <nextgens> I try to restart it
[12:49] <toad_> kaffe -Xnative-math is very bad
[12:49] <toad_> does not work well at all...
[12:50] <toad_> at least, not for the NativeBigInteger test benchmark
[12:50] <toad_> run time is around 1400ms (optimistically) on kaffe -Xnative-math
[12:50] <toad_> ohh, it's not using native-math.. duh...
[12:51] * toad_ recompiles kaffe from CVS locally
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[13:00] <nextgens> the computer is restarting
[13:00] <nextgens> toad_: can you start jabber ?
[13:00] <nextgens> toad_: I will give you an other gateway address
[13:00] <nextgens> toad_: not a wifi one ;)
[13:10] <toad_> this is really interesting...
[13:10] <toad_> 40k, log^3:
[13:10] <toad_> Cycle 120: Average path length: 4.66113263605886, Success probability: 0.9981965012123519, inserts: 1.0, first-time success ratio: 0.9981912226700091 (31513) -first time path length 4.65580493387589, mini-cycles: 1 - 300 nodes, 49903 requests
[13:10] <toad_> 20k, log^3:
[13:10] <toad_> Cycle 120: Average path length: 4.453185173299102, Success probability: 0.999078
[13:10] <toad_> 1932587872, inserts: 1.0, first-time success ratio: 0.9989817348692166 (15713) -
[13:10] <toad_> first time path length 4.437089889787858, mini-cycles: 1 - 300 nodes, 24951 req
[13:10] <toad_> uests
[13:11] <toad_> so more requests leads to less performance!
[13:12] <toad_> and it's not always as small as that diff. either...
[13:13] <toad_> Error: Unrecognized JVM specific option `-Xnative-math'.
[13:13] <toad_> with kaffe
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[13:16] <toad_> robilad: kaffe with -Xnative-big-math is slightly slower than sun java with freenet-ext.jar
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[13:26] <Ash-Fox> Hmm.. wget doesn't work well at all with fred
[13:28] <toad_> are you trying to fetch a whole site?
[13:30] <Ash-Fox> Pretty much
[13:35] <Ash-Fox> Although I noticed something annoying with wget, that is if it sees two or more /'s used in a row.. it strips them all out until there is only one slash in that location.
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[14:10] <Ash-Fox> Gah.. why can't people make one page sites in a zip file...
[14:11] <Ash-Fox> The constant attempts for images drive me insane
[14:12] <greycat> so make routing work better, and the images won't take as long :)
[14:16] <Ash-Fox> It's not take as long, it's like fallen off freenet I think
[14:16] <Ash-Fox> I've been refreshing one image all day
[14:16] <Ash-Fox> Still hasn't appeared yet
[14:17] <Ash-Fox> And when I say all day, I started at 6am, it's now 7:18pm
[14:17] <greycat> "Francesca's Asshole"?
[14:17] <Ash-Fox> Uh?
[14:17] <greycat> guess not ;)
[14:18] <greycat> oh, by the way, just for the record... when your /freenet file system fills up because 28G was just a *hair* too big, and you want to lower the data store size to 28000, *DON'T* forget the "M" on the end, because otherwise Freenet treats it as 28000 bytes instead of 28000 megabytes. Just a *purely* hypothetical tangent. :/
[14:20] <Ash-Fox> Ah, I wrote everything in bytes :P
[14:20] <Ash-Fox> I have a 37GB store.. whole old HD dedicated to freenet
[14:24] <linyos> the node should just check the amount of free space on the store's filesystem
[14:24] <linyos> and adjust accordingly
[14:24] <linyos> ie, "if there's less than 1GB of space, increase free space to 4GB"
[14:24] <Ash-Fox> I use native
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[14:24] <greycat> yes, and any realistic language would permit the program to do that.
[14:25] <linyos> like java
[14:25] <linyos> just use the JNI thing
[14:25] <greycat> is that Yet More Proprietary Black Magic that won't work on all platforms?
[14:25] <linyos> feel real sorry for all those people running fred on their phones
[14:26] <Ash-Fox> Haha
[14:26] <linyos> their stores will be unmanagable!!!!
[14:26] <Ash-Fox> I used to run a small freenet network over ham radio :P
[14:26] <greycat> I've already had to move my node from my openbsd box to a linux box because kaffe no longer works (until they scrap NIO)
[14:26] -lilo- [Global Notice] Good evening, all. News up on the freenode website: (1) Major downtime on Sunday. (2) Status of fundraiser. Please take a look at http://freenode.net/news.shtml ! Thank you for your support for freenode, and have a great evening!
[14:27] <Ash-Fox> eegads? people run this network!?
[14:27] <robilad> toad_: heya
[14:27] <robilad> oh, nice, seems like they started to optimise stuff :)
[14:28] <greycat> Ash-Fox: no, they just solicit money for no good reason (since the servers are already run by volunteers, the money has no purpose other than to let lilo stay unemployed)
[14:28] <robilad> toad_: slower than 1.4? 1.5?
[14:29] <linyos> but starting the irc server daemon is such hard work!
[14:29] <linyos> surely we should shower him in gold
[14:29] <greycat> I'm *not* going to get into any golden showers that involve lilo.
[14:29] <Ash-Fox> ... Hmm, my IRC network got more in fund raisers...
[14:29] <linyos> i'll beat him with a cane if that helps
[14:31] <Ash-Fox> But then again.. all the money went to the servers :P
[14:33] <linyos> wireless displays make a lot of sense
[14:34] <linyos> you stick a tft, a battery, a wireless chip, and a vector graphics rasterizer in a tablet
[14:36] <linyos> carry it around for portability, or plug it into a base station with input devices
[14:38] <linyos> i imagine having this rugged server cube thing, you just plop it down somewhere and plug it in, and then all these client devices connect to itt
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[15:14] <Ash-Fox> I wanted to use what I consider, a better java under windows... unfortunate this now happens with the new versions http://www.quickfox.org/temp/IBM-JAVA-HATES-ME.PNG
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[15:35] <toad_> [18:27] <greycat> is that Yet More Proprietary Black Magic that won't work on all platforms? -- you missed a word out
[15:36] <toad_> [18:28] <Ash-Fox> I used to run a small freenet network over ham radio :P --- sounds illegal...
[15:37] <Ash-Fox> toad_, it wasn't, we wern't hiding our IP addresses, plus we were licensed hams :P
[15:37] <toad_> linyos: MS is working on that.. UWB may let you have enough bandwidth to do it
[15:37] <toad_> Ash-Fox: in my country you can't encrypt on ham packet
[15:37] <toad_> and in most countries except for the US IIRC
[15:37] <toad_> (and you can't swear)
[15:38] <toad_> (and probably some other restrictions)
[15:38] <Ash-Fox> Oh I know about the PG ratings
[15:38] <toad_> PG ratings?
[15:38] <gregh> I don't think encrypted comms is allowed on the ham bands in the us
[15:38] <Ash-Fox> But as I said, it was a 'small freenet network' not part of the rest of freenet
[15:39] <Ash-Fox> toad_, no sex, no violence, no swearing etc. etc.
[15:39] <toad_> :|
[15:40] <toad_> well they have to be able to give licenses to juveniles... (this was before stalking over electronic media became a big problem)... right?
[15:41] <Ash-Fox> To my knowledge, the rules related ham in Poland are simply that encrypted content is allowed, but you may not compress the IP headers or spoof/hide IP addresses
[15:41] <toad_> cool
[15:42] <Ash-Fox> A lot of hams though get annoyed at encrypted stream though
[15:42] <Ash-Fox> And they used to have a tendency to report that a 'commercial' operation was going if it was constant
[15:45] <gregh> ah here it is, section 97.113
[15:45] <gregh> (a) No amateur station shall transmit:
[15:45] <gregh> (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided elsewhere in this Section; communications intended to facilitate a criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals or identification;
[15:46] <toad_> gregh: i think you're in the US and he's in Poland
[15:46] <gregh> right, I'm just talking about the US
[15:47] <gregh> just clarifying your conjecture that encrypted comms is allowed in the us (unless I misread your statement)
[15:50] <Ash-Fox> Hey toad_, is it possible to get a freenet node to act like a gateway for a network.. say Internet<->node<->Wi-fi network<->over nodes ? Without it introducing nodes to the wrong sides?
[15:51] <Ash-Fox> *other
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[15:58] <toad_> Ash-Fox: in 0.7, sure
[15:58] <toad_> Ash-Fox: in 0.6... perhaps
[15:58] <toad_> might need some minor source changes
[15:59] <Ash-Fox> 0.7 is going to use a BBS type system where you had to know somebody that was 'on the inside' to get in\
[15:59] <Ash-Fox> From my knowledge
[15:59] <toad_> sorta yes, so what you say becomes really easy
[15:59] <Ash-Fox> Although... Would that mean that the only way to communicate with the rest of freenet would be through that 'somebody'?
[15:59] <toad_> you can have more than one connection
[16:00] <Ash-Fox> I am going to have problems finding people :/
[16:00] <toad_> then use the open network
[16:01] <toad_> anyway you don't have to know them offline
[16:01] <toad_> nor do they have to be Ultimately Trustworthy (unless you can get killed for running a node, in which case you're an idiot for running a node)
[16:01] <Ash-Fox> oh, I know that.. It's just that I'm very quiet on freenet :P
[16:01] <toad_> but they can't be randomly found on a website somewhere
[16:01] <toad_> or you get the wrong link pattern
[16:02] <toad_> well beyond a certain level of penetration it becomes possible to get these things done through LUGs, 2600 meetings and so on
[16:03] <Ash-Fox> I imagine the 'open network' is basically 0.6 right?
[16:04] <toad_> nextgens says i can use nodes 20 and 21...
[16:04] <toad_> Ash-Fox: not necessarily
[16:04] <toad_> we may implement both
[16:04] <toad_> although we might not implement premix routing on the open network
[16:04] <toad_> (we'd implement SOME means to address the problems premix routing fixes, but not as solid)
[16:05] <toad_> the two networks would be a common codebase anyway
[16:05] <toad_> now why hasn't ian contacted me?
[16:06] <Ash-Fox> Check your freemail, sometimes I feel he's extremely paranoid :P
[16:07] <toad_> freemail?
[16:07] <toad_> we were going to talk about reasonable targets for simulations...
[16:09] <Ash-Fox> I'd be more informed about freenet if I didn't kept geting removed from the mailing lists (I imagine it's because my server changes it's ip addy once every 24 hours.. and sourceforge has some sort of problem with that)
[16:09] <Ash-Fox> Or wait.. It was a server freenet.org according to the mailogs
[16:09] <Ash-Fox> bleh
[16:11] <Ash-Fox> By the way, by freemail.. I was refering to a e-mail implementation that was done on freenet, but the guy who wrote the server I use.. hasn't updated since.. ever :P
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[16:32] <linyos> if the internet is locked down radio links will be too
[16:33] * Rom|Away (Romster@203.129.145.152) has joined #freenet
[16:34] <Ash-Fox> linyos, eh?
[16:37] <linyos> freenet over radio (or lasers, whatever)
[16:38] <linyos> there is not much point
[16:39] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-196-163.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[16:39] <linyos> what we need is freenet over nothing
[16:40] * Romster (Romster@203.129.145.152) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[16:40] <linyos> because any medium becomes the weakest link
[16:44] <toad_> linyos: it is very expensive to lock down wireless
[16:44] <toad_> you can ban it, of course
[16:44] <linyos> there's wireless and then there's wireless, you know
[16:44] <toad_> or you can require remote control capabilities in every piece of electronic hardware
[16:44] <linyos> it's one thing to go a hundred feet
[16:44] <linyos> toad_: thing is, people can keep using old hardware in private. that is the best you can hope for.
[16:45] <linyos> but you can't really hope that old hardware will be able to use super-tyrant-net-one-million-2010
[16:46] <linyos> unless you think it's practical to have long-distance wireless links that are both (a) not detectable with a wireless scanning van, and (b) easy to set up
[16:47] <linyos> ie, no fancy lasers
[16:47] <linyos> radio links can always be locked down under the pretext of frequency regulation
[16:48] <Ash-Fox> linyos, define a 'wireless scanning van'
[16:49] <Ash-Fox> linyos, it's possible to pin point the general area of where a wireless network is.. where exactly.. Bahaha
[16:49] <linyos> something that detects and locates radio signals
[16:49] <Ash-Fox> Not to mention, if it's in a city, you'll have no real luck finding it
[16:49] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[16:49] <linyos> i admit i'm not an expert in wireless
[16:50] <linyos> so i don't know what the state of the art is in detection, or what kinds of long-distance wireless technologies are practical.
[16:51] <linyos> i just feel like it's a bad long-term bet that you can send wireless signals over significant distances without being found out or blocked
[16:51] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[16:51] <Ash-Fox> Trust me, it's difficult to locate where signals originate from... the wireless truck thing though was funny.. because it sounds just like when the RIAA was trying to stop illegal pirate stations.. they couldn't, they couldn't even locate them.. although they did have some luck, but most of the luck was done by investigating.. this is no real technology for locating such things
[16:52] <Ash-Fox> err
[16:52] <Ash-Fox> Damn it
[16:52] <Ash-Fox> Not RIAA
[16:52] <Ash-Fox> FCC
[16:52] <linyos> is that because they are incompetent, underfunded, what?
[16:52] <Ash-Fox> No, it's because the technology simply isn't there
[16:52] <spaetz> ypu read about the spanish university teacher who got fired?
[16:53] <spaetz> because he gave a course on legal P2P uses?
[16:53] <Ash-Fox> It's insanely difficult to locate exactly where a broadcast is originating from
[16:53] <Ash-Fox> I haven't actually
[16:53] <spaetz> spanish copyright organization talked the dean into firing the guy
[16:53] <linyos> that's weird, p2p courses are being taught everywhere these days
[16:54] <toad_> spaetz: woah
[16:54] <spaetz> boingboing.net has a link to the full story
[16:54] <toad_> spaetz: that's insane
[16:54] <Ash-Fox> "WTF LEGAL USES! GET 'IM FIRED!"
[16:54] <spaetz> it is. the tascher himself published the full story from his side...
[16:54] <toad_> i mean even games companies use bittorrent for legit things
[16:54] <toad_> Blizzard distributes WoW trailers using a proprietary bittorrent client...
[16:54] <toad_> (which you can't throttle)
[16:54] <spaetz> the dean refused to give him a room so he held the course in the cafeteria :)
[16:55] <spaetz> which was fully packed :)
[16:55] <spaetz> then he got fired
[16:55] <linyos> Ash-Fox: if it really is infeasible in principle, at least for some class of transmissions, that would open the door to some things.
[16:55] <toad_> Ash-Fox: and those are real broadcasts, not wifi nodes... BUT long range links are going to be rather more obvious
[16:55] <toad_> you'll need a dish, and you'll need to operate in regulated space i.e. 5.8GHz or thereabouts
[16:55] <toad_> or more
[16:56] <Ash-Fox> toad_, I'm quite aware :)
[16:56] <toad_> having said that, long range links would be point to point...
[16:56] <Ash-Fox> toad_, I've seen antenas made from the old apartment balconys in the city I live
[16:57] <Ash-Fox> Interesting ground antenas etc.
[16:57] <toad_> cool
[16:57] <toad_> omni's?
[16:57] <Ash-Fox> I've a drain pipe used for Omni stuff
[16:57] <Ash-Fox> *I've seen a
[16:58] <Ash-Fox> Although it wasn't exactly connected to the drains anymore :P
[16:58] <toad_> link length = #nodes ^ random()
[16:58] <toad_> produces a 1/d probability distribution...
[16:59] <toad_> so if #nodes is 10
[16:59] <toad_> probability of a link length 1...
[16:59] <toad_> 10^x = 1
[17:00] <Ash-Fox> Hmm, I wonder what a true peer to peer radio network would be like
[17:00] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
[17:00] <toad_> x = 0
[17:00] <toad_> hmmm
[17:01] <toad_> 10^x = 2 => x log(10) = log(2) => x = log(2)/log(10)
[17:01] <toad_> 30% chance of distance = 2 or less
[17:01] <toad_> 47% chance of 3 or less
[17:01] <toad_> 60% chance of 4 or less
[17:01] <toad_> 70% chance of 5 or less
[17:02] <toad_> 78% chance of 6 or less...
[17:02] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) has joined #FreeNet
[17:02] <spaetz> Ash-Fox: you mean the mesh networks, or whatever they are called?
[17:02] <toad_> 85% chance of 7 or less...
[17:02] <toad_> not possible at the moment IIRC
[17:02] <toad_> WDS _SUCKS_
[17:03] <toad_> maybe with the new mimo kit, when we figure out how to abuse it to work outdoors
[17:03] <toad_> of course you could just have a mesh of ronjas
[17:03] <toad_> but that'd be expensive
[17:03] <toad_> 90% chance of 8 or less
[17:03] <toad_> nah
[17:03] <toad_> it's not "or less"
[17:03] <toad_> it's "less than"
[17:03] <toad_> so
[17:04] <linyos> toad_: you could use genetic algorithm methods to grow that function
[17:04] <toad_> 0% chance of dist < 1
[17:04] <toad_> 30% chance of dist < 2
[17:04] <linyos> the distribution function
[17:04] <toad_> 17% chance of dist < 3
[17:04] <toad_> err
[17:04] <toad_> 17% chance of dist ~= 3
[17:04] <toad_> 13% = 4
[17:04] <Ash-Fox> Hmm
[17:04] <toad_> 10% = 5
[17:04] <toad_> 8% = 6
[17:05] <toad_> etc
[17:05] <toad_> so this function makes shorter links much more likely
[17:05] <linyos> you have a population of 1000 points that delineate the decreasing link probability curve as distance => infinity
[17:05] <toad_> and does not produce ANY links of distance 1
[17:06] <linyos> you mutate and breed that point set
[17:06] <toad_> p(link length == X) = 1/x
[17:06] <linyos> at each generation you simulate how each population member does
[17:06] <toad_> so we always have the immediate neighbours
[17:06] <toad_> no
[17:06] <linyos> by using the interpolation of those points as your distance->probability function
[17:06] <toad_> it's p(link length == X) PROPORTIONAL TO 1/x
[17:06] <toad_> oooooooh
[17:07] <toad_> i think hobx got his maths wrong ;)
[17:07] <toad_> or rather its application...
[17:07] <toad_> it's an off by one error i think...
[17:07] <linyos> yeah, 1/d implies that nodes with distance=1 have a 1/1=1 probability of linking
[17:08] <toad_> linyos: except that it's not a probability
[17:08] <linyos> toad_: you do that by connecting the nodes in a ring though
[17:08] <toad_> it's PROPORTIONAL TO 1/d
[17:08] <toad_> not EQUAL TO 1/d
[17:08] <linyos> meaning there is a coefficient factor?
[17:08] <toad_> linyos: sure, but me and ian have been discussing this, we're not convinced that it's necessary or useful to connect the nodes in a ring
[17:08] <linyos> like 1/d * 0.4
[17:08] <Ash-Fox> I should write a RFC draft for a IRC whiteboard protocol
[17:08] <toad_> yes, you calculate the coefficient by adding up all the 1/d's
[17:09] <toad_> and then inverting it
[17:09] <toad_> so:
[17:09] <toad_> n=10
[17:09] <toad_> coefficient = 1/(1/1+1/2+1/3+1/4+...1/10)
[17:09] <linyos> i think math-competent people (ie not me) should really handle this arguments...
[17:09] * linyos buts out.
[17:09] <toad_> = 2.929
[17:09] <toad_> well 1/2.929
[17:09] <toad_> heh
[17:09] <toad_> i'm not math competent either :)
[17:10] <toad_> anyway the coefficient is 0.341 according to my calculations
[17:10] <toad_> which almost but not quite fits with the formula... hrrrrrrrm
[17:10] <toad_> grrr!
[17:11] <toad_> http://www.math.chalmers.se/~ossa/rv.pdf
[17:12] <toad_> P(X<x) = log(x)/log(n)
[17:12] <toad_> where n is the bound
[17:12] <toad_> so if it's 1...9, we have n=10
[17:12] <toad_> so P(X<10) = 1.0
[17:12] <toad_> P(X<1) = 0
[17:13] <toad_> P(X<2) = 0.301
[17:13] <toad_> in other words
[17:13] <toad_> THE PROBABILITY OF A LINK OF LENGTH ONE IS NOT ONE !
[17:14] <toad_> our left and right links are completely artificial...
[17:14] <linyos> the real question is whether the node graph in the real world corresponds to your model
[17:15] <linyos> because we have no control over it.
[17:15] <toad_> well, academia suggests so
[17:15] <toad_> that's all we really have at the moment
[17:15] <toad_> it is LIKELY that real world connections conform to 1/d
[17:15] <linyos> all you can do is route as best you can over the links you have.
[17:15] <toad_> for some value of d
[17:15] <linyos> hmm
[17:15] <toad_> lets see...
[17:15] <toad_> P(X<1) = 0
[17:16] <toad_> P(X==1) = P(X<2) = 0.301
[17:16] <toad_> P(X==2) = 0.176
[17:16] <toad_> P(X==3) = 0.125
[17:16] <toad_> P(X==4) = 0.0969
[17:16] <toad_> okay
[17:17] <toad_> this does... no it doesn't... argh
[17:17] <toad_> if P(X==1) = 1K, P(X==2) = 0.5K
[17:18] <toad_> then the above numbers are whacky
[17:18] <toad_> so
[17:18] <linyos> wouldn't a realworld darknet have some people with lots of friends who hook up to them, and some people with only a few?
[17:18] <toad_> maybe hobx HAS got his maths wrong...
[17:18] <toad_> linyos: yes, one thing at a time...
[17:20] <toad_> back to the original question...
[17:20] <toad_> assuming hobx's proof is correct
[17:21] <toad_> we have link length = N ^ random()
[17:21] <toad_> where N is a random between 0 and 1
[17:22] <toad_> therefore, if link length = 1, and N = 10, we get N ^ x <= 1
[17:22] <toad_> i.e. x log(N) <= 0
[17:22] <toad_> i.e. x == 0
[17:22] <toad_> so that formula produces no links of length 1
[17:23] <linyos> round(10^0.01) is one
[17:24] <toad_> round which way?
[17:24] <toad_> ahhh
[17:24] <toad_> okay
[17:24] <linyos> i don't know how you are rounding
[17:24] <toad_> "it is hard to simulate random values that take a discrete set of values"...
[17:24] <toad_> oskar says
[17:24] <toad_> so
[17:24] <toad_> define Int(X) to be the integer part of X
[17:25] <toad_> that seems the only viable interpretation of his proof
[17:25] <toad_> so we get link length = 1, N = 10 => N ^ x < 2
[17:25] <toad_> => x log N < log(2) => x = log(2)/log(N)
[17:26] <toad_> so if randomvariable < log(2)/log(N), we get a link of length 1
[17:26] <toad_> except that we are rounding the wrong way in the actual code...
[17:26] <linyos> is it floor() or nearest integer?
[17:26] <toad_> we are rounding to the nearest integer in the code
[17:26] <toad_> which is definitely wrong
[17:26] <linyos> if it's floor(), then you will practically never get 10^1=10
[17:26] <toad_> it is definitely wrong, because we get 0 - 0.5, then 0.5 - 1.5, then 1.5 - 2.5
[17:26] <toad_> linyos: yes, and that's intended
[17:26] <linyos> or do you not want d=10
[17:27] <linyos> ah
[17:27] <toad_> we don't want d=10
[17:27] <toad_> okay so it's a rounding error
[17:27] <linyos> floor it is then
[17:27] <toad_> it has to be a rounding error
[17:28] <toad_> it is inconceivable that hobx means Int(X) here to be the NEAREST integer
[17:28] <linyos> toad_: keep this in perspective though, if the distance of every other link on average is one too long, is that going to change the world so much?
[17:28] <linyos> i mean relative to what we know about the real world
[17:28] <toad_> linyos: well, it could impact it a bit
[17:29] <toad_> what could impact it more is that the length 1 links are STILL wrong
[17:29] <toad_> we have far too many of them
[17:29] <linyos> i mean, do we have any reason to say that what happens now is a bad model of the conjectural real world graph?
[17:29] <toad_> however... if we don't have them... we get worse things probably...
[17:30] <linyos> or do we know so little about the nature of that graph that minor variations in the model are relatively insignificant.
[17:30] <linyos> you have two of them per node
[17:30] <linyos> because of your ring.
[17:31] <linyos> that is all you can have in a one-dimensional world
[17:31] <linyos> in a three dimensional world you could have six.
[17:31] <toad_> why do you have a ring?
[17:32] <toad_> why do you have 3x as many 1-length links as you should?
[17:32] <linyos> toad_: your code puts them in a ring first.
[17:32] <linyos> when i read it a few days ago.
[17:32] <linyos> i don't know why it does that.
[17:32] <toad_> yes
[17:32] <toad_> hobx said we should
[17:32] <toad_> but i'm not convinced that it's necessary
[17:33] <toad_> or that it's required by Kleinberg
[17:33] <linyos> certainly in the real world everybody does not get in a big circle and hold hands.
[17:33] <linyos> toad_: it ensures that your graph is fully connected, if that means anything
[17:33] <toad_> right, it does
[17:33] <toad_> but is that necessary?
[17:33] <toad_> and even if it is, doesn't it cripple routing?
[17:34] <toad_> a 10,000 node network with a 1/d distribution of links is going to be fully connected...
[17:34] <linyos> with some probability. dunno what that is, it may approach one
[17:34] <toad_> huge probability i'd think
[17:35] <toad_> anyway i'm going to try without them...
[17:36] <linyos> i'd like to see the Kleinberg model simulated with a genetically-grown distance->probability function
[17:36] <toad_> eh?
[17:36] <toad_> hmmm
[17:36] <linyos> if kleinberg is right, it should spontaneously approach the 1/d curve
[17:36] <toad_> without the side links, greedy routing doesn't work
[17:36] <toad_> hmmm
[17:37] <toad_> linyos: eh?
[17:37] <linyos> you have this function, f(distance) = probability of linking to that node
[17:37] <toad_> hmmm
[17:37] <linyos> kleinberg says that should be 1/distance
[17:37] <linyos> but you could generate a curve based on 1000 genetically mutated points
[17:37] <toad_> so is Kleinberg P(link length = x) proportional to 1/d but only if d > 1, if d == 1, then P(link length = x) == 1.0 ?
[17:37] <linyos> and simulate routing to make a fitness function
[17:38] <linyos> it might be interesting.
[17:38] <linyos> 1/1=1
[17:38] <toad_> linyos: what exactly is kleinberg? does it require p(D=d) = k / d ?
[17:38] <linyos> i haven't studied the paper.
[17:38] <toad_> or does it require P(D=d) EQUALS 1/d ?
[17:38] <linyos> i'm quoting that second hand.
[17:39] <toad_> ohhhh
[17:39] <toad_> i think it's P(D=d) = 1/d
[17:39] <toad_> ummm
[17:39] <toad_> that's scary
[17:39] <toad_> that means you have to have exactly the right number of links as well as the right distribution...
[17:39] <toad_> hrrrrm
[17:40] * linyos looks up that paper
[17:40] <linyos> lots of math in that one, it's scary
[17:42] <Elly> hey toad_, uP2P is cool =D
[17:43] <linyos> the nature article has the nodes in a 2d lattice
[17:43] <linyos> each one connects to the four adjacent nodes
[17:43] <toad_> yeah, then it's 1/d^2
[17:43] <linyos> and then has one random link chosen with that 1/2 function
[17:43] <linyos> 1/d
[17:43] <toad_> linyos: is it probability = 1/d, or is it probability is proportional to 1/d ?
[17:43] <linyos> that's the illustration anyway
[17:44] <linyos> if there is only one link, must be proportional.
[17:44] <toad_> huh?
[17:44] <linyos> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/home/kleinber/nat00.pdf
[17:44] <toad_> it's quite possible for it to be either way
[17:44] <toad_> if it's P(X=x) = 1/d, then we are back to the classic small worlds stuff
[17:44] <toad_> oh shit
[17:45] <toad_> oh ****!
[17:45] * toad_ resigns
[17:45] <toad_> well not quite yet ;|
[17:45] <toad_> it has to be proportional, doesn't it?
[17:45] <linyos> never mind
[17:45] <linyos> that is just one case of his general algorithm where "q=1"
[17:46] <linyos> toad_: the kleinberg model explicitly demands connections to adjacent nodes.
[17:46] <linyos> that is why hobx said to do it i think.
[17:46] <linyos> so it is proportional, you choose one at a time and the function is just weighted to produce lots of short links and few long links.
[17:48] <linyos> "node v is selected with probability proportional to r^-a, where r is the lattice distance and a is a fixed clustering exponent"
[17:50] <spaetz> don't resign toad!
[17:50] <spaetz> we need you :)
[17:51] * piratePenguin (~declan@194.165.179.62) has joined #freenet
[17:52] <toad_> linyos: node v?
[17:52] <toad_> the node you are connecting to?
[17:52] <piratePenguin> is is it OK to use freenet on dial-up?
[17:53] <piratePenguin> yey, I just loaded my first freesite :D At last
[17:54] <toad_> piratePenguin: you can try
[17:54] <piratePenguin> I am trying :) Working, just about
[17:58] <linyos> the node you're connecting to, yeah. i'm sure you can understand that article better than i can.
[17:59] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-255-254.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[18:01] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-084-059-152-156.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:11] <toad_> okay, there's no point looking at the simulations until they get to a couple thousand nodes...
[18:11] <piratePenguin> If someone setup, say, a blog on freenet, and few to no users visited the blog, would the blog dissapear off the face of freenet?
[18:12] <toad_> log^3 with a 20k start is pretty much the same at 500 as flat 10k
[18:12] <toad_> but at 3000, there's a _big difference_ between the two of them
[18:12] <toad_> so...
[18:12] <spaetz> toad_: so starting out at 1000?
[18:12] <spaetz> or more?
[18:13] <toad_> so the two spare nodes - 20 and 21 - need to run something...
[18:13] <spaetz> hehe, tapping into a cluster must be nice
[18:13] <toad_> lets say log^3 with 10k and 20k with the New Fixes
[18:14] <toad_> or even flat 10k with the New Fixes, but i do have a copy of that running locally...
[18:14] <toad_> this machine crashes pretty often though
[18:14] <toad_> oka
[18:15] <toad_> okay
[18:15] <toad_> log^3 it is, with 10k and 20k
[18:23] <toad_> okay, loaded both
[18:23] <toad_> bbiab (dinner)
[18:23] <toad_> poss won't be back tonigh
[18:23] <toad_> t
[18:23] <spaetz> bye then
[18:37] * piratePenguin (~declan@194.165.179.62) has left #freenet
[18:40] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[18:50] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-255-254.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[18:53] * linyos writes a kleinberg simulator
[19:13] <linyos> works
[19:13] <linyos> cool
[19:14] <linyos> ten hop average for 8000 nodes
[19:15] <linyos> 20 hops for a million nodes
[19:15] <linyos> this is with eight long-range links
[19:15] <linyos> 22 hops for 1000 nodes and one long-range link
[19:16] <linyos> 13 hops for same with two links
[19:17] <linyos> 10 for three
[19:17] <linyos> this is fun!
[19:18] <linyos> million nodes, 16 links: 12 hops
[19:19] <linyos> 30 hops max
[19:26] <linyos> 8 hops with 32 links
[19:27] <linyos> all the time is spent calculating the hundreds of mbs of node identifiers in the routing tables
[19:28] <linyos> 5 hops with 64 links, million nodes
[19:29] <linyos> waiting for my computer to explode, it is rather flaky
[19:30] <linyos> anticipation....
[19:30] <linyos> 3 hops for 160 links
[19:30] <linyos> let's get floating point on that
[19:32] <linyos> anticipation...
[19:32] * linyos makes some more tea
[19:34] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[19:34] <linyos> 3.46 hops, to be exact.
[19:36] <linyos> 8 million nodes with 16 links.....
[19:37] <linyos> 15.9 hops
[19:38] <linyos> changing from 1/d to random: 112 hops for million nodes, 64links
[19:38] <linyos> very bad indeed!
[19:38] <linyos> though not horrible, the greedy routing still finds it in 112
[19:39] <linyos> so now i just write my genetic algorithm distance function, and find a supercomputer to run it
[19:41] <linyos> hah, and my closeness function is wrong, it doesn't wrap around.
[19:47] <linyos> very small difference
[19:47] <linyos> interesting.
[19:59] * linyos works on the genetics
[20:24] * spaetz_ (~spaetz@217-162-196-163.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[20:24] <linyos> hmm. this is not quite the same as freenet because the links are one directional
[20:24] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-196-163.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:52] * verl (verl@h155n2fls33o877.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[20:54] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[21:00] * bigtemp (kvijayan@S01060050ba488230.ss.shawcable.net) Quit ("Konversation terminated!")
[21:28] <linyos> bugs
[21:37] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[21:48] <linyos> cool
[21:48] <linyos> got the genetic code half done
[21:50] <linyos> i have this array of distances
[21:50] <linyos> say 64 distances in an array
[21:51] <linyos> to set the distance for an item, randomly pick one
[21:51] <linyos> if i use the kleinberg function to populate my array, my results are almost the same as using that function directly
[21:52] <linyos> s/item/node/
[22:07] <linyos> ~$ gcc -O9 -fomit-frame-pointer -malign-double -Wall kleinberg.c -o kleinberg -lm && ./kleinberg
[22:07] <linyos> Simulating a network of 65536 nodes of 32 long-range links each.
[22:07] <linyos> random: 39.53 mean hops on 16 networks.
[22:07] <linyos> kleinberg: 5.14 mean hops on 16 networks.
[22:07] <linyos> genetic: 5.12 mean hops on 16 networks.
[22:07] <linyos> genetic: 5.39 mean hops on 16 networks.
[22:21] <linyos> code code code
[22:27] * larsl (~larsl@larsl.developer.qgis) has joined #freenet
[22:28] <larsl> Hello, I understand that it can take time to get content from Freenet, but is it normal that it takes several minutes just to load some of the pages in the web interface?
[22:28] <larsl> I'm not complaining, I just want to know if something is broken in my node.
[22:28] <linyos> it's slow and unreliable.
[22:29] <linyos> if you'd paid anything for it, you'd have every right to complain. :)
[22:30] <larsl> The local pages too? I'm trying to get to the "Current downloads" page for example, but it's been loading for five minutes too.
[23:00] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[23:25] * Zothar (~chatzilla@ppp-70-243-28-212.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68a [Firefox 1.0.4/20050511]")
[23:47] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[23:48] * cbreak|WoW is now known as cbreak
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
