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[0:23] <tessier> Wow, bittorrent is moving right along. Becoming decentralized.
[0:23] <tessier> Soon they may add an optional layer or two of redirection and it will completely usurp freenet.
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[0:37] <TheSeeker> Bit torrent works so well because you only share bandwidth with people who want the exact same content as you... it will slow down a bit if you start acting as a router for other nodes, and will become useless is you trry and route the traffic of thousands of other files as well as the one you're interested in
[1:07] <tessier> TheSeeker: I think you will be proven wrong. :)
[1:07] <tessier> And if that is really the case the same would happen to freenet.
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[1:28] <linyos> don't worry, they will lock down the internet soon enough.
[1:28] <linyos> then you can say goodbye to bittorrent and everything else.
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[1:31] <TheSeeker> freenet's already pretty much useless though :p bt is really really efficient for single, large, popular files.
[1:32] <linyos> depends on how you define efficient.
[1:32] <linyos> the internet is ludicrously inefficient in every single imaginable way.
[1:32] <TheSeeker> very fast, and very little wated bandwidth.
[1:32] <TheSeeker> *wasted
[1:33] <TheSeeker> with Freenet, a ton of bandwidth is wasted just shuffling around queries that never reach anything...
[1:35] <linyos> counterpoint: there are tons of dysfunctional bittorrents out there.
[1:35] <linyos> and tons of p2p-type computers with bandwidth and storage to spare.
[1:35] <linyos> that is the definition of inefficiency.
[1:35] <TheSeeker> I've never met one. but then, I don't use it all that often myself.
[1:35] <linyos> they often have too few uploaders.
[1:36] <linyos> or missing parts.
[1:37] <linyos> anyway, i think the whole concept of downloading is stupid when practically everything can be streamed over broadband.
[1:38] <linyos> it is just more evidence that, while the hardware is there, programmers are too incompetent to use it well.
[1:38] <linyos> another thing that bugs me: web site latency.
[1:39] <linyos> i mean, in any sane world, nearly everything would be cached at your isp.
[1:39] <linyos> and there would be no tcp handshakes that take so much time.
[1:39] <linyos> would take a few milliseconds.
[1:44] <linyos> now it is like six serialized packets. dns lookup (2 packets), tcp initiation (4 packets)
[1:48] <TheSeeker> you're seriously suggesting that nobody have local storage, and should just stream everything over the 'net whenever they wanted to get any form of content?
[1:51] <Synonymous> lots of interest in Freenet now which is good
[1:51] <linyos> it's not a valuable concept.
[1:51] <linyos> users shouldn't have to worry about "files"
[1:51] <linyos> just tell your damn computer to play the britney spears CD, and it plays.
[1:52] <linyos> whether that involves downloading it, playing it from your disk, or beaming it from mars
[1:52] <Synonymous> That is a good idea linyos, i was thinking of making a metacontent index with hashes for content, then you could look up anything you want, find its hash and start downloading
[1:53] <Synonymous> and if you download something and want to know if it's ledgit, you can compare its hash with the metacontent list's hash to see if it has viruses or scratches, buts, and other info
[1:53] <linyos> not a bad idea.
[1:53] <Synonymous> ya, i tried to make the database, i made a few in access and tried to put it on mysql but its hard
[1:58] <linyos> filesystems are totally wrong, they should just disappear.
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[7:11] <spaetz> mmmh, would having an automatically updated freenet api (doxygen) help?
[7:12] <spaetz> I tried to set one up for now (weekly autogenerated) http://sspaeth.de/freenetapi/
[7:12] <spaetz> although the code is not well documented for doxygen purposes yet
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[7:24] <nextgens> hi
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[8:23] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/requests-per-cycle-spread.png
[8:45] <spaetz> they differ significantly.
[8:46] <spaetz> still linear
[8:46] <spaetz> more or less
[8:49] <TheSeeker> what's ideal?
[9:02] <toad_> ideal would be a flat line at 1.0 :)
[9:02] <toad_> that'll never happen though
[9:02] <toad_> probably
[9:03] <toad_> at least we've established that #reqs/cycle has a significant impact
[9:03] <toad_> it was possible that it didn't
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[9:18] <TheSeeker> hmm, so the higher the 'optimal' requests/cycle, the better the graph?
[9:19] <toad_> the higher the line, the better the probability of success especially at large network sizes, the better the graph
[9:20] <toad_> but yes it looks like more requests/cycle leads to a better graph
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[9:32] <toad_> hi
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[9:34] <TheSeeker> makes sense... with a higher requests/cycle limit, you'll get less "I'm backed off" due to traffic ... the question is, if it's actually possible to pass that many messages (and what about trailers?)
[9:36] <toad_> no backoff
[9:36] <toad_> no load balancing in these simulations yet
[9:36] <toad_> and yes i think O(log^2(N)) is quite feasible
[9:37] <toad_> O(log^3(N)), with 10,000 at #nodes=200
[9:38] <toad_> => for 200 nodes, we get 10,000 requests
[9:38] <toad_> for 1000 nodes we get 17000 requests per cycle
[9:38] <toad_> for 10,000 nodes we get 30,200 requests per cycle
[9:38] <toad_> for 100,000 nodes we get 47,000 requests per cycle
[9:38] <toad_> for 1M nodes we get 68,000 requests per cycle
[9:39] <toad_> for 10M nodes we get 92,500 requests per cycle
[9:39] <toad_> assuming reality is 10 times worse, we get 700,000 requests per added node on a 1M node network
[9:40] <TheSeeker> is that per hour? day?
[9:40] <toad_> in other words each node needs to process around 700,000 requests on average to get fully integrated
[9:40] <TheSeeker> minute? :p
[9:40] <toad_> (that's a guesstimate, but it seems logical)
[9:40] <TheSeeker> ah, hmm
[9:40] <toad_> now, if they are 1kB each... 700,000*1kB = 700*1MB
[9:40] <toad_> = 700MB
[9:40] <toad_> big deal!
[9:41] <toad_> if they are 32kB, we have 700,000*32kB = 22.4GB
[9:41] <toad_> which is somewhat more of a problem
[9:41] <TheSeeker> splitfiles will make up a large number of requests, and those tend to be about a meg each don't they?
[9:41] <toad_> as a 12kB/sec uplink only does about 1GB/day...
[9:42] <toad_> TheSeeker: with the current network yes
[9:42] <toad_> TheSeeker: we propose to have fixed size keys
[9:42] <toad_> of either 32kB, 1024 bytes or 512 bytes
[9:42] <TheSeeker> that will make the key size graph a lot more boring :p
[9:42] <toad_> ;)
[9:43] <toad_> oh and it's triple the above if we discover that log^3 is necessary
[9:43] <TheSeeker> ack
[9:43] <toad_> which still isn't a big deal imho if we have small keys
[9:43] <toad_> triple again if we need log^4
[9:43] <toad_> and obviously it increases linearly if we increase the starting point from 10,000 requests
[9:44] <toad_> TheSeeker: what's ACK?
[9:46] <TheSeeker> having to process several gigs of data before being integrated into the network... most users won't want to leave freenet running for a week before they're able to use it very well...
[9:46] <toad_> why would it take a week?
[9:46] <toad_> anyway they have to do so now :(
[9:46] <toad_> i am hoping we can improve it significantly
[9:46] <toad_> on where it is now
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[9:47] <TheSeeker> true, it would be hard to make freenet slower than it is now, while technically 'working' better.
[9:48] <toad_> still, i'm probably missing something...
[9:48] <toad_> there should be an easier way perhaps
[9:49] <toad_> okay, bbiab
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[10:38] <toad_> hi folks
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[10:48] * toad_ checks out some SSH shells he has acquired...
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[10:48] <toad_> spaetz___: having problems?
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[11:00] <toad_> Host: sbc.lir.dk
[11:00] <toad_> User: toad
[11:00] <toad_> Specs: Duron 1800
[11:00] <toad_> Email: Sonax <sonax@hush.com>
[11:00] <toad_> IRC: Sonax (via I2P)
[11:00] <toad_> Notes: permission to run sims
[11:00] <toad_> argh
[11:00] <toad_> thank god that didn't include the password... :)
[11:01] <toad_> [12:12] <Drew> FYI I can confirm that installing Freenet on an XP professional system sets maxnodeconnections to 60
[11:01] <toad_> that's what I was trying to say
[11:01] <toad_> what can we do about this?
[11:04] <spaetz> fix it :-)
[11:04] <spaetz> I wonder why people keep expecting you to fix the wininstaller
[11:07] <toad_> because I do everything else?
[11:08] <toad_> because I get paid and therefore should do all the unpleasant grunt jobs?
[11:08] <spaetz> :-( sadly enough, yes that's probably the reason
[11:08] <toad_> spaetz: did you get my email?
[11:08] <spaetz> javadoc?
[11:08] <spaetz> I don't know javadoc
[11:08] <toad_> no, re ssh
[11:09] <spaetz> ahh
[11:09] <toad_> as far as sims go.... i need to run them out to 10k requests... or at least i need them to catch up with each other...
[11:09] <spaetz> just reading. I had to reinstall the whole shebang (except user dirs)
[11:09] <spaetz> so yes the key and all kind of stuff will have changed
[11:10] <toad_> but what i have running now is a reasonably solid spread of different options...
[11:10] <toad_> yay
[11:11] <toad_> i get a password prompt (it doesn't know my pubkey)
[11:11] <spaetz> mmh, wait a sec
[11:11] <toad_> but at least it doesn't grumble about identity
[11:11] <toad_> email me a password (encrypted), and i'll upload my PK so i can log straight in
[11:11] <toad_> that's if you want me to be able to log in?
[11:12] <spaetz> weird
[11:12] <spaetz> it should work. your home dir with its original .ssh dir is still their
[11:12] <toad_> hmmm
[11:12] <toad_> maybe my pk changed?
[11:12] <toad_> make me a new password...
[11:13] <spaetz> ahh, user toad unknown :)
[11:13] <spaetz> having a home dir alone is not enough
[11:13] <toad_> :)
[11:13] <spaetz> I'll recreate you
[11:13] <toad_> you need to be in the password file, and you need to be in sshd_config:AllowedUsers
[11:14] <spaetz> ok, recreated toad
[11:14] <spaetz> without a password, but public ssh key should still work
[11:14] <toad_> hey i'm in
[11:14] <toad_> cool
[11:14] <toad_> can i run sims here?
[11:14] <spaetz> sure
[11:14] <spaetz> as long as you nice them somewhat
[11:14] <toad_> 1GB of RAM, it's an athlon 64 3000+ right?
[11:14] <spaetz> right
[11:15] <toad_> i don't recommend running a node on a machine that runs sims as well even if they're niced
[11:15] <spaetz> it has libgmp installed but complains about not finding the CPU optimized stuff
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[11:15] <toad_> is it running in 64 bit mode?
[11:15] <toad_> spaetz: right, it will
[11:16] <spaetz> toad_: that is ok. I don't run a node there
[11:16] <spaetz> at least not ususally
[11:16] <spaetz> yes 64 bit mode
[11:16] <toad_> hrrm
[11:16] <toad_> we really ought to solve the freenet-ext.jar-doesn't-work-on-k8's problem
[11:16] <toad_> you have the JDK? you have GCC?
[11:16] <spaetz> Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build Blackdown-1.4.2-01)
[11:16] <spaetz> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build Blackdown-1.4.2-01, mixed mode)
[11:17] <spaetz> gcc 3.4.3
[11:17] <toad_> that's JRE, do you have the JDK i.e. do you have javac?
[11:17] <spaetz> yep
[11:17] <toad_> toad@hal ~ $ javac
[11:17] <toad_> Error occurred during initialization of VM
[11:17] <toad_> Could not reserve enough space for code cache
[11:17] <toad_> hmmm nice
[11:17] <toad_> :)
[11:17] <toad_> toad@hal ~ $ java
[11:17] <toad_> Error occurred during initialization of VM
[11:17] <toad_> Could not reserve enough space for code cache
[11:17] <toad_> even nicer...
[11:17] <spaetz> ahh ?
[11:18] <toad_> uh, it doesn't work ;|
[11:18] <spaetz> wait. I might have set a ulimit for you once
[11:18] <toad_> must be pretty low if it doesn't let me run java...
[11:18] <spaetz> ulimit -v 786432
[11:19] <spaetz> mmh
[11:19] <toad_> toad@hal ~ $ ulimit -v
[11:19] <toad_> 786432
[11:19] <toad_> that ought to be plenty...
[11:19] <toad_> that's virtual memory in kilobytes? or in pages?
[11:19] <spaetz> I don't have other ulimit's set
[11:20] <spaetz> no other restrictions as well. But I can run java just fine
[11:20] <toad_> hrrm
[11:20] <toad_> what happens if you su to toad?
[11:20] <spaetz> whoo, same error
[11:21] <spaetz> wait. I'll remove any ulimit stuff and retry
[11:21] <spaetz> removing ulimit. java worked now
[11:21] <toad_> what editors are installed?
[11:21] <spaetz> emacs mainly
[11:21] <toad_> vi, joe, nano, and jed are not installed
[11:22] <toad_> hmmm
[11:22] <toad_> could you put vim in please? :)
[11:22] <spaetz> need nano or joe?
[11:22] <toad_> yay java worked
[11:22] <spaetz> I'm not a vi fan
[11:22] <toad_> jed or joe or nano or anything really
[11:22] <spaetz> ok, so you run unlimited now...
[11:22] <spaetz> *shrug*
[11:22] <toad_> vim is good for deleting lots of lines quickly
[11:22] <toad_> :)
[11:22] <spaetz> so is emacs :)
[11:23] <spaetz> ok, let's see if I can get you vim
[11:23] <toad_> yeah but it takes ages to load and i know even less of the keys than i do for vim :)
[11:23] * toad_ needs to edit his .bashrc and explicitly set LOCALE=C
[11:23] <spaetz> hehe
[11:23] <spaetz> ohh, might be german by default, yes
[11:24] <toad_> curiously enough that doesn't affect java
[11:24] <toad_> but it does affect GCC
[11:24] <spaetz> vim is a 7MB source code hog
[11:24] <toad_> GCC has better l10n than java... heh
[11:24] <spaetz> java is installed as binary. Might therefore not be localized
[11:24] <toad_> what distro is this?
[11:24] <toad_> gentoo?
[11:24] <spaetz> gcc was compiled on this box
[11:24] <spaetz> gentoo
[11:25] <spaetz> and ahh. I might occassionally switch between gcc 3.4.3 and 4.0.pre1 :)
[11:25] <spaetz> so complain if gcc dies :)
[11:25] <toad_> are they compatible?
[11:25] <spaetz> ususally yes
[11:25] <toad_> actually gcj 4.0 would be quite useful, i can't easily get it here (debian)
[11:25] <spaetz> toad_: I don't have gcj installed.
[11:25] <spaetz> Could do that
[11:25] <spaetz> let me see
[11:26] <toad_> hmmm
[11:27] <spaetz> ok vim is available
[11:27] <toad_> why does cpuid not load on x86_64? it ought to, it has code to detect it... maybe it tries to load the .so in long mode?
[11:28] <toad_> ahhh
[11:28] <toad_> even with export LOCALE=C, LANG=C, gcc has only the de locale.. odd
[11:28] <toad_> oh well
[11:29] <spaetz> That is I2P code, isn't it?
[11:29] <spaetz> I think jrandom had a fix at some point
[11:29] <spaetz> toad_: opportunity to learn some German :-)
[11:29] <spaetz> I might have deleted english at some point. Lemme check this
[11:30] <spaetz> LC_ALL="C" gcc -version
[11:30] <spaetz> gcc: unrecognized option `-version'
[11:30] <spaetz> gcc: no input files
[11:30] <spaetz> english works for me with GCC
[11:31] * rkupke (fpxkhb@p54ACFA7B.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ()
[11:31] <toad_> oh, LC_ALL
[11:31] <toad_> duh
[11:32] <spaetz> locale -a tells I only have en_US installed not UK (GB?)
[11:32] <spaetz> sorry ;)
[11:32] <toad_> heh
[11:33] <spaetz> gcj 4.0 is in the works...
[11:33] <spaetz> I will stop bothering you now. Go to work :). Ping me if you need something
[11:35] * toad_ checks out the source into his home dir on spaetz's pc
[11:36] <toad_> yay you have ant
[11:37] <spaetz> :). I need it. As gentoo is very compile happy, I have
[11:37] <spaetz> ant as a dependency
[11:38] <toad_> naturally i can't compile the windows version of the k8 dlls here
[11:39] * Romster (Romster@203.129.153.65) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[11:40] <spaetz> well, leave that to some poor soul with Windows...
[11:41] <toad_> poor soul is right... on monday and tuesday i spent like 8 hours reinstalling windows and various updates and virus checkers for a friend
[11:41] <toad_> it took aaaaaaages, and something like 100 reboots
[11:42] <spaetz> I stopped doing windows related help (besides very close family) saying I don't know it anymore :)
[11:42] <spaetz> I would be happy to help them install e.g. Ubuntu though :)
[11:42] <toad_> :)
[11:43] <toad_> yeah, i was tempted
[11:43] <toad_> he needed a web browser and MSN instant messenger...
[11:43] <spaetz> right. Nothing which absolutely requires Win
[11:43] <toad_> i don't know
[11:43] <toad_> MSN is pretty MS-specific isn't it?
[11:44] <spaetz> nahh. Gaim, Kopete, Centericq,....
[11:44] <spaetz> don't they all support MSN?
[11:44] <toad_> no idea
[11:44] <toad_> but he also needed support for his digicamcorder...
[11:44] <spaetz> mmh, already trickier
[11:46] <spaetz> ahh, btw if you already run simulations. I still use all the CPU power on the box
[11:46] <toad_> hmm?
[11:46] <spaetz> might take another 10 minutes
[11:46] <toad_> ah np
[11:47] <hobx_> The west is the best
[11:47] <spaetz> RandomHobxQuote()
[11:48] <hobx_> That which does not please you, makes you stronger.
[11:48] <hobx_> Nietzche was a hedonist pussy.
[11:48] <toad_> lol
[11:49] <toad_> okay, we simply need an x86_64 version of the jcpuid library...
[11:49] <toad_> or maybe...
[11:49] * Negi-Sensei (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[11:49] <toad_> well there's only two different x86_64 chips at the moment anyway
[11:49] <toad_> so just pick it up from the os.arch
[11:52] <spaetz> os.arch=x86_64 should work IMHO
[11:52] <toad_> actually it reads as "amd64"
[12:00] <toad_> spaetz: i think you need more swap...
[12:01] <toad_> compile:
[12:01] <toad_> [javac] Compiling 966 source files to /home/toad/freenet/build
[12:01] <toad_> [javac] The system is out of resources.
[12:01] <toad_> [javac] Consult the following stack trace for details.
[12:01] <toad_> [javac] java.lang.OutOfMemoryError
[12:01] <toad_> but maybe it's just java being crazy
[12:01] <spaetz> Mem: 1025508k total, 694452k used, 331056k free, 0k buffers
[12:01] <spaetz> Swap: 498004k total, 616k used, 497388k free, 250564k cached
[12:01] <greycat> ulimit -a
[12:02] <toad_> nothing looks particularly a problem
[12:02] <toad_> javac bug apparently
[12:02] <spaetz> I could get Suns Java if that makes it work...
[12:03] <spaetz> or jikes. Or whatever :)
[12:04] <toad_> wierd...
[12:05] <toad_> yeah, try getting sun 1.5 jdk...
[12:05] <spaetz> ok, just a sec
[12:05] <toad_> meanwhile i'll make a cvs diff and see if it compiles on servalan...
[12:07] <toad_> ah, got it
[12:08] <toad_> btw if you ever do any java hacking i strongly recommend Eclipse
[12:08] <toad_> hmm... pig
[12:09] <toad_> i fixed the error and it still OOMs
[12:09] <toad_> compiles cleanly here
[12:10] <toad_> Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.2-b28, mixed mode)
[12:10] <spaetz> ok, downloading suns jdk
[12:20] * [DH]Chris is now known as sf\chris
[12:27] <spaetz> toad suns jdk is installed now
[12:27] <spaetz> relogin or "source /etc/profile" should make the new java work
[12:28] <spaetz> gcj 4.0 is still in the works...
[12:29] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-255-095.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[12:39] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-196-163.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit ("Lost terminal")
[12:40] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-196-163.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[12:58] <toad_> spaetz: thx
[13:02] <spaetz> gcc-Version 4.0.1-beta20050514 available now as well
[13:02] <spaetz> gcj, I mean
[13:03] <toad_> cool
[13:06] * sf\chris is now known as [DH]Chris
[13:06] <toad_> [DH]Chris: your node working well now?
[13:07] * Negi-Sensei (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[13:08] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) Quit (No route to host)
[13:09] <[DH]Chris> toad_
[13:09] <[DH]Chris> working a bit better
[13:09] <[DH]Chris> been able to get hold of some things
[13:09] <[DH]Chris> firefox got a problem tho
[13:09] <[DH]Chris> keeps crashing esspcilly when trying to access freenet
[13:09] <toad_> hmmm
[13:09] * [DH]Chris is now known as sF\Chris
[13:09] <toad_> that's our fault? :)
[13:09] <sF\Chris> nah does it with other sites aswell
[13:10] <toad_> it works pretty well for me
[13:10] <toad_> what version?
[13:10] <sF\Chris> it only started few days ago i htink its cos i got s fook load of spy/as where somehow
[13:10] <sF\Chris> so clearning up
[13:10] <toad_> through firefox?
[13:10] <toad_> possible but unlikely..
[13:11] <sF\Chris> i only use firefox
[13:11] <sF\Chris> but part form that
[13:11] <sF\Chris> yeah frenet working a bit better got more connections now
[13:11] <toad_> how many connections each way?
[13:12] <sF\Chris> lemme check
[13:14] <sF\Chris> 53 (30/23/200)
[13:15] * toad_ builds library for amd64...
[13:15] <sF\Chris> ??
[13:15] <sF\Chris> whats that about amd64
[13:15] <spaetz> yay, great!
[13:15] <toad_> sF\Chris: looking reasonable
[13:15] <sF\Chris> yeah sites seam to be loading a bit quicker now, not great but better then for
[13:16] <toad_> hmmm many compile errors though
[13:16] <toad_> maybe need a more recent libgmp
[13:16] <sF\Chris> libary or amd64.....libary?
[13:16] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) has joined #FreeNet
[13:16] <toad_> this one uses "amd64", doesn't recognize "athlon64" !
[13:16] <sF\Chris> whats this for
[13:16] <spaetz> toad gmp should be recent lemme check
[13:17] <toad_> speeding freenet up by using native code for a few expensive operations
[13:17] <toad_> spaetz: i'm using the one in contrib
[13:17] <toad_> spaetz: you have source for a more recent one? where?
[13:17] <spaetz> gmp-4.1.4
[13:17] <toad_> hmmm
[13:17] <spaetz> doesn't it use the system installed lib by default?
[13:18] <toad_> it's built it dynamically linked to the system lib
[13:18] <toad_> i think we want it statically linked
[13:18] <toad_> iirc that's the way the others were...
[13:18] <spaetz> need the source? I can get it
[13:19] <toad_> what is linux-gate.so.1? oh, it's a thunking lib isn't it
[13:20] <spaetz> toad_: should I switch back to gcc 3.4.3? 4.0 still fails on quite some stuff...
[13:20] * sF\Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ("(#uk.radio :: BNC = No)")
[13:20] <toad_> spaetz: probably
[13:20] * cbreak (~cbreak@84-72-98-199.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[13:20] <spaetz> ok, source /etc/profile
[13:20] <spaetz> and oyu are on 3.4.3 again
[13:21] <toad_> why does it not want to link it statically?
[13:22] <toad_> spaetz: where is the source for 3.4.4?
[13:22] <toad_> err
[13:22] <toad_> 4.1.3?
[13:23] <spaetz> gcc?
[13:23] <spaetz> look in /usr/portage/distfiles
[13:23] <spaetz> there is gcc....
[13:24] <spaetz> as a tar file
[13:26] <spaetz> gmp source is also in there
[13:26] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[13:29] <toad_> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.3-20050110/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/
[13:29] <toad_> bin/ld: .libs/libgmp.a(powm.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `__gmp_modlimb_i
[13:29] <toad_> nvert_table' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
[13:29] <toad_> .libs/libgmp.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
[13:29] <toad_> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[13:29] <toad_> cp: cannot stat `libjbigi.so': No such file or directory
[13:29] <toad_> argh
[13:30] <spaetz> arrg indeed
[13:30] <spaetz> I'll try get a sane static version of gmp
[13:36] <spaetz> >> /usr/lib64/libgmp.so -> libgmp.so.3.3.3
[13:36] <spaetz> >>> /usr/lib64/libgmp.la
[13:36] <spaetz> >>> /usr/lib64/libgmp.a
[13:36] <spaetz> ok, recompiled
[13:37] <toad_> hmmm
[13:37] <toad_> i wonder if it was a gcc4.0 issue
[13:37] <toad_> ARGH
[13:38] <spaetz> might very well be
[13:38] <spaetz> ARGH?
[13:38] <toad_> /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/3.4.3-20050110/../../../../x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/bin/ld: .libs/libgmp.a(powm.o): relocation R_X86_64_32S against `__gmp_modlimb_invert_table' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC
[13:38] <toad_> .libs/libgmp.a: could not read symbols: Bad value
[13:38] <toad_> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[13:38] <spaetz> mmmhh
[13:38] <toad_> hmmm
[13:38] <spaetz> beat me. I don't know what to do
[13:38] * Ash-Fox (UNKNOWN@ecv236.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[13:38] <spaetz> I can recomplie with fPIC
[13:38] * Ash-Fox (UNKNOWN@ecv236.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[13:38] <spaetz> didn't try that
[13:39] * spaetz is not even sure what -fPIC does
[13:40] <toad_> R_X86_64_32S
[13:40] <toad_> is that a thunk?
[13:40] <spaetz> ok, last try. -fPIC this time... compiling
[13:40] <toad_> in other words, has it actually compiled a 32-bit library?
[13:40] <spaetz> I don't think it compiled a 32bit version
[13:43] <spaetz> ok, recompiled again using -O2 -fPIC
[13:43] <spaetz> If it doesn't work I don't know why
[13:45] <toad_> hmmm
[13:45] <toad_> it worked with your version
[13:47] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:47] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d5152629C.access.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[13:48] <toad_> okay
[13:48] <toad_> you just need --with-pic
[13:49] <toad_> that's the difference
[13:50] <spaetz> does it work now or do I need to recompile gmp with --with-pic?
[13:50] <toad_> yes it works now
[13:50] <spaetz> ahh, ok
[13:50] <toad_> now why does jar not work?
[13:51] <spaetz> *sig* jar is simply part of the sun jdk. Right?
[13:51] <spaetz> now why should that *not* work?
[13:51] <toad_> yeah
[13:51] <spaetz> wierd
[13:51] <toad_> jars are almost the same as zip files
[13:51] <spaetz> I now.
[13:52] <toad_> hrrm
[13:52] <toad_> -rw-r--r-- 1 toad users 214143 May 19 16:43 libjbigi-linux-athlon.so
[13:52] <toad_> -rwxr-xr-x 1 toad users 77304 May 19 18:57 libjbigi-linux-athlon64.so
[13:52] <toad_> WTF?!
[13:53] <toad_> maybe compiled smaller because different linker etc?
[13:53] <toad_> it's definitely not dynamic...
[13:53] <spaetz> may be
[13:53] * [DH]Chris (~kicken18@80-193-62-89.cable.ubr03.gill.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[13:53] <spaetz> as long as it works...
[13:54] <toad_> well it'd be nice if we could shrink freenet-ext.jar significantly
[13:54] <toad_> but there is the question of whether it WORKS
[13:54] <spaetz> mmh, that would be nice
[13:56] <toad_> ARGH
[13:56] <toad_> now that we have i
[13:56] <toad_> it finally
[13:56] <toad_> it SEGVs!
[13:56] <spaetz> damn
[13:57] <toad_> i'm not convinced it did compile properly...
[13:57] <toad_> but it _did_ compile...
[13:58] * toad_ tries with 4.1.3...
[14:01] <toad_> hrrrm
[14:01] <spaetz> no success either?
[14:01] <toad_> even compiled with 4.1.3 it doesn't work
[14:02] <toad_> stupid sun...
[14:02] <toad_> obviously it's all their fault.. :)
[14:02] <spaetz> must be!
[14:02] <spaetz> :)
[14:03] <spaetz> classpath & co will use libgmp by default without hassle
[14:03] <toad_> probably some sort of JNI problem which we have no idea how to fix...
[14:03] <toad_> yeah but it's a major PITA to run even the simulations on classpath
[14:03] <spaetz> I guess so.
[14:03] <toad_> it shouldn't be
[14:04] <toad_> but last i tried it was
[14:04] <toad_> you have to recursively strip out everything it doesn't like
[14:04] <toad_> which is everything
[14:04] <toad_> with gcj 3.4
[14:04] <spaetz> sounds bad
[14:05] <spaetz> and will propbably still not work after stripping the hell out of it
[14:05] <toad_> well it might work with 4.0
[14:06] <toad_> you said you'd installed gcj?
[14:06] <toad_> you uninstalled it again?
[14:07] <spaetz> it might. I can switch to 4.0 if you'd like to try.
[14:07] <spaetz> No it's installed
[14:07] <toad_> yes plz
[14:07] <toad_> well its not in the path...
[14:07] <spaetz> I just have to switch between 3.4.3 and 4.0 as only one of the two is in the path by default
[14:07] <toad_> ahhh
[14:07] <toad_> debian would install both as gcj-4.0 and gcj-3.4
[14:07] <toad_> :)
[14:08] <toad_> but sadly debian doesn't have gcc 4.0 yet
[14:08] <spaetz> yes, gentoo provides gcc-config to switch. but oyu have to be root obviously
[14:08] <spaetz> switched
[14:08] <spaetz> it might work now or require "source /etc/profile" again
[14:08] <spaetz> dunno
[14:10] <spaetz> mmh, usually it works like debian with most apps, e.g. xchat-2 gimp-2.2. But with java and gcc it allows only one default install
[14:10] <spaetz> dunno why
[14:10] <spaetz> never bothered to find out
[14:11] <toad_> still gets verification errors compiling the jars...
[14:12] <toad_> grrr.. that was a big waste of time..
[14:12] <toad_> i suppose we'll have to wait for gcj 4.1 :<
[14:13] <toad_> of course, Kaffe will work fine
[14:13] <spaetz> what a pity. but propably the only way ...
[14:13] <toad_> we hope
[14:13] <toad_> and will use the native bigint's
[14:13] * toad_ suggests you install it
[14:13] <toad_> i mean it will use the system bigint library
[14:13] <spaetz> kaffe-1.1.5 ok?
[14:13] <toad_> probably
[14:14] <toad_> JIT is good
[14:14] <robilad> -Xnative-math, i didn;t manage to amke that automatical before 1.1.5
[14:14] <spaetz> will install jikes-1.22 as dependency, interesting
[14:14] <robilad> yeah, i suck :)
[14:14] <toad_> robilad: so we need CVS?
[14:14] <toad_> robilad: what does it use in 1.1.5?
[14:14] <toad_> oh we just pass the argument ok
[14:14] <robilad> nah, it works, jusyt with 1.1.5, you need to tell it to use the cool big math, and not the looney one.
[14:14] <robilad> yeah
[14:15] <spaetz> hehe
[14:15] <toad_> robilad: you have a trigger on "kaffe" on this channel?
[14:15] <toad_> or do you just read it way too much?
[14:15] <robilad> i am eberywhere.
[14:15] <robilad> :)
[14:15] <spaetz> I just wondered the same :)
[14:15] <robilad> yeh, this chatzilla thing tiggers on kaffe.
[14:15] <robilad> no idea why.
[14:16] <robilad> i must have set it that way eventually and forgot about it.
[14:16] <spaetz> .oO( big red lamps and sirens go on all over robilads place)
[14:16] <spaetz> ahh kaffe was mentioned somewhere :)
[14:16] <robilad> little red tab in this thing, yeah.
[14:16] <toad_> robilad: gcj still sucks even in 4.0. :<
[14:16] <spaetz> kaffe's downloading...
[14:16] <robilad> i guess it would even beep if i let it.
[14:17] <robilad> toad_: the compiler?
[14:17] <toad_> yeah
[14:17] <spaetz> robilad: yes
[14:17] <robilad> yeah, it does.
[14:17] <robilad> donkey balls and all that.
[14:17] <robilad> gcjx will kind of fix everything.
[14:17] <robilad> it even comes with a sane verifier :)
[14:17] <toad_> THAT would be an improvement
[14:17] * toad_ looks forward to it next year
[14:17] <robilad> that is at leat the plan, of the mighty gcj gods.
[14:18] <toad_> it has a JIT too iirc
[14:18] <robilad> oh, the verifier might end up soon in kaffe, depending on how much time gonso has to merge it in.
[14:18] <toad_> all the Really Cool Stuff except the multi-mode support using other free JVMs
[14:18] * robilad lays out his cool vm plan
[14:18] <robilad> we tack gcj to kaffe, use vmgen to generate a speedy fast interpreter
[14:19] <robilad> use latte for a mixed mode engine,
[14:19] <toad_> what's vmgen?
[14:19] <toad_> latte is a kaffe variant which has mixed mode, right?
[14:19] <robilad> use janosvm for isolation, and use jessica for single system image transparent clustering
[14:19] <robilad> yeah
[14:19] <toad_> so you just need to make latte work together with GCJ-generated code?
[14:19] <spaetz> latte? LOL oopen source names are just great
[14:19] <robilad> and boehm is plugged in already. :)
[14:19] <toad_> isolation?
[14:20] <robilad> yeah, and with jit4 from pocketlinux kaffe. then I am happy.
[14:20] <toad_> so how much of that is Easy Stuff and how much of that is Nasty Stuff?
[14:20] <robilad> cough.
[14:20] <toad_> jit4 being a much improved jit...
[14:20] <robilad> i will be soon finished merging classpath into kaffe, so i intend to find out then. :)
[14:21] <robilad> 19 classes to go. that's a weekedn or two.
[14:21] <toad_> so you have latte-interpreter (is that the fastest free bytecode interpreter?) -> jit4 JIT -> GCJ JIT
[14:21] <toad_> where the last item is caching
[14:21] <toad_> cool
[14:21] <robilad> well, I think the first item is using pre-gcjed rt.jar.so
[14:21] <toad_> yes
[14:21] <robilad> that saves you the interpreting cost.
[14:21] <toad_> that would be a significant gain
[14:22] <toad_> and that means you have to have GCJ code and Kaffe code work smoothly together
[14:22] <robilad> as a jit can be a real drag on an m68k box
[14:22] <toad_> with exceptions etc, which could be a big deal
[14:22] <robilad> that's the master plan, yeah.
[14:22] <robilad> exceptions are nasty, though fortunately other clever people have written all that code before.
[14:22] <toad_> but it'll have to be written again?
[14:23] <robilad> which means it needs soeone to whack it into shape, i guess.
[14:23] * toad_ finds the way Kaffe has forked and bubbled and merged quite fascinating... strength through forking!
[14:23] <robilad> it will probably have to be rewritten for the gcj abi in 4.0
[14:23] <robilad> yeah
[14:23] <robilad> it's pretty unique that way.:)
[14:24] <robilad> i mean, if we get isolation and ssi merged in ... hmm, transparently running apps on large clusters with migrations and all that ... ther may be oneor two places even interested in such applications.
[14:24] <toad_> what's isolation?
[14:24] <robilad> in particular if the apps stay in their containers.
[14:25] <toad_> and surely there are really nasty requirements for SSI parallelization to work faster than one computer?
[14:25] <robilad> isolation is a way to run mutliple applicaitons in a single vm instance so that they can share resources, but do not interfere with each other.
[14:25] <robilad> yeah
[14:25] <toad_> ahhh
[14:25] <toad_> isolation nice
[14:25] <robilad> ssi works great when you have workers thayt do work.
[14:25] <toad_> is there an official API for it?
[14:26] <robilad> yes, in development.
[14:26] <toad_> if you want to run some mobile code say...
[14:26] <robilad> the janosvm deva are actually on the jsr.
[14:26] <toad_> and do it reasonably securely
[14:26] <robilad> :)
[14:26] <toad_> ahh cool
[14:26] <toad_> okay
[14:27] <toad_> i ought to get some food before i go out
[14:27] <toad_> bbiab
[14:27] <toad_> robilad: what are likely performance characteristics of GCJ JIT?
[14:28] <toad_> it'll be really slow to start with and only compile stuff after ages since there's a relatively huge compilation cost?
[14:28] <spaetz> toad, kaffe installed
[14:28] <spaetz> have fun
[14:28] <toad_> but if stuff has already been compiled, it'll go fast.. comparable to sun, sometimes faster, sometimes slower
[14:29] <toad_> (sun does some optimizations you simply can't do in GCJ...)
[14:29] <robilad> toad_: bug green on #classpath about it, it's still experiemental.
[14:29] <robilad> have fun, see you later.
[14:31] * toad_ supposes you could do even THOSE optimizations by some sort of low overhead profiling and then profile driven optimizations, making alternate versions of functions that optimize the common case really fast, if those functions are used loads and always get the common case...
[14:31] <toad_> anyway bbiab
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[15:51] <spaetz> darn, I shut down the box out of habit. toad, I hope you weren't running a simulation on it
[15:51] <spaetz> restarting...
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[16:10] <linyos> i bought a laptop for $50 last night
[16:10] <linyos> panasonic toughbook CF-25
[16:12] <spaetz> fell off a truck somewhere? :)
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[19:07] <Elly> you know what's odd though
[19:08] <Elly> Azureus doesn't slow my net connection nearly as much as freenet
[19:08] <Elly> which makes no sense
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