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[0:08] <linyos> toad_: the trusted-links thing is just delaying the inevitable. it's not my idea of a fun time.
[0:12] <linyos> toad_: anyway, just publish a CHK on the start page that has a bunch of useful, socially acceptable content.
[0:12] <linyos> who can object to that?
[0:12] <linyos> you not only get a freenet node, you get a _free_ link to a trove of books to read.
[0:13] <linyos> i don't see what right users have to demand more.
[0:49] <linyos> hmm, search scalability is not terribly important if you enforce low search rates
[0:49] <linyos> iirc i calculated that broadcast search would work fine in a million-node p2p network.
[0:49] <linyos> all the more so in sneakernet.
[0:51] <linyos> the key to efficiency is probably the caching algorithm, to minimize hops.
[0:58] <linyos> and the key to everything will be trust gravity, i just know it.
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[1:12] <Negi-Sensei> hey.
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[1:12] <Lollergator> is it worth it to upgrade to unstable?
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[2:13] <Ash-Fox> The opt-in thing is going to be annoying if it ever gets implemented :/
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[5:42] <spaetz> *sigh* I could not resist
[5:43] <spaetz> now let's see if my mail to tech- gets through
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[6:46] <nextgens> hi
[6:46] <Synonymous> hi
[6:48] <Synonymous> toad, you were talking about quantum computers just now and public keys, what if a working quantum computer were to be created, would that impare Freenet to the point where it could no longer be anonymous?
[6:54] <spaetz> Synonymous: he was merely replying to a comment on quantum computers
[6:54] <spaetz> how should that impare freenet?
[6:54] <spaetz> Wouldn't it rather help?
[6:55] <spaetz> but is OT anyway IMHO :)
[6:55] <Synonymous> hmmm it will not help i dont think since freenet uses public key / private key systems that quantum computers can break in seconds
[6:56] <spaetz> ahh, I see your point now :)
[6:56] <Synonymous> so that means SSL, PGP etc. will all be broken
[6:56] <Synonymous> :O)
[6:57] <Synonymous> MUTE doesnt have end to end encryption using public keys, so an anonymous p2p system can exist without it but some modifications might have to be made to freenet was what i was wondering, its very interesting
[6:58] <Synonymous> bbiab, going to go do my work but i'll read what ppl say when i get back
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[8:30] <aum> hi all
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[8:46] <aum> hard to get a word in edgewise, with all the traffic on this channel
[8:46] * aum misses the 'freenet heyday' (2001-2002)
[8:53] <TheSeeker> it's better when there's a rapid development environment with new releases and features to test at least once a week...
[8:54] <aum> did u read the /. article?
[8:59] <TheSeeker> I don't read /.
[8:59] <aum> probably wise
[9:03] <toad_> sorry folks
[9:03] <toad_> will try to put out a progress report weekly
[9:04] <toad_> now i need to get nextgens to get me back into the cluster...
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[9:19] <spaetz> hi toad
[9:19] <spaetz> I didn't want to press oyu on this, but I think it would make sense
[9:19] <spaetz> latest Changelog entry for stable is half a year ago and latest news on the website are also... mhhh... antiwue
[9:20] <spaetz> antique
[9:20] <TheSeeker> minus the "register" news item
[9:21] <spaetz> TheSeeker: yes
[9:22] <spaetz> toad, if joining a network quickly is "the common case", then optimizing for it makes of course sense. no doubt
[9:32] <spaetz> hey just noticed that toad stopped to reply above the reply quots :)
[9:37] <TheSeeker> yeah, he does that... reads the chat logs and responds to things, sometimes days later o.o
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[10:06] <nextgens> toad_: ping
[10:13] <nextgens> Creating a wiki could be a good idea
[10:14] <nextgens> (/me is talking about Newsbyte s latest post on tech)
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[10:52] <tessier_> Wikis are definitely good.
[10:52] <tessier_> I used to be skeptical but now many projects have them and they have helped me many times.
[10:56] <nextgens> proof that newbyte s idea aren t always bad ones :-D
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[11:06] <tessier_> nextgens: shhh...sanity is here.
[11:07] <sanity> nextgens: i didn't realise that newsbyte invented wikis
[11:07] <tessier_> nextgens: Oh great, now you've done it.
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[11:47] <spaetz> mmmh wikis only work if people actually contribute
[11:47] <spaetz> I'm not sure how much more activity we'd see
[11:47] <spaetz> Given that you could also "just" get CVS access
[11:48] <spaetz> fairly easily
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[11:53] <tessier_> What does cvs access have to do with a wiki?
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[11:56] <spaetz> with cvs access you can modify the webpages :)
[11:56] <spaetz> at least that used to be the case
[11:57] <linyos> if all the unproven crypto primitives broke, that would probably rule out using hashes for document ids
[11:58] <linyos> but you could have private namespaces i guess.
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[12:15] <nextgens> he didn't invented them ... but he isn't wrong : a wiki could be usefull :)
[12:20] <linyos> i just wish html was designed in a saner way.
[12:20] <linyos> but that is rather off topic.
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[12:32] <chapin> how can i make freenet faster?
[12:32] <greycat> forward your FNP port from your firewall/NAT to your node's box.
[12:32] <greycat> or... solve the routing problems that the Freenet developers have been working on for the past 7 years.
[12:33] <chapin> you're talking about the FProxy port?
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[12:34] <chapin> doubt if i'll be solving the routing problem any time soon. i'm no network expert
[12:35] <chapin> every time i try to click a link, it says couldnt retrieve key
[12:35] <chapin> is taht normal? i just started using freenet
[12:35] <[DH]Chris> you using a router
[12:36] <chapin> yes
[12:36] <greycat> switch to "advanced mode" and check your open connections link.
[12:36] <[DH]Chris> i jsut started today
[12:36] <[DH]Chris> had a problem where wouldnt connect to shit so opend all the ports in my router
[12:36] <[DH]Chris> you opend the fnet pors in your router?
[12:36] <[DH]Chris> no site will load for me, it either says no key or its stuck on loading erghh lol
[12:36] <[DH]Chris> apart from freedon enegine
[12:37] <greycat> how many open connections, and are any of them incoming?
[12:38] <chapin> how do i switch to advanced mode
[12:38] <greycat> click "advanced mode" in the upper right corner of the web interface
[12:38] <[DH]Chris> ok greycat done that
[12:38] <chapin> i have too
[12:38] <greycat> now click open connections
[12:39] <[DH]Chris> i have like 6 idle out and six idle in
[12:39] <greycat> it says "12 (6/6/200)" or something similar?
[12:40] <[DH]Chris> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 12 (6/6/60)
[12:40] <chapin> mine says 30 (0/30/200)
[12:40] <[DH]Chris> hmmm
[12:40] <[DH]Chris> chapin have you opend the ports on your router?>
[12:41] <greycat> [DH]Chris: that looks reasonable for a new node. Just let it run for a while, and keep trying periodically. It can take a few hours for the node to be able to find stuff.
[12:41] <greycat> chapin: yours sounds like you forgot to forward your FNP port from your firewall.
[12:41] <[DH]Chris> ahh right yeah i thought so, seams to be running a bit quiker now buit that could be cos the pages are still in my firefox chache
[12:42] <chapin> yeah i've got a weird network setup here, but i'll check the forwarding
[12:42] <[DH]Chris> eyah chapin, i have that problem you need to open 8481 to 8888 and 30981, well thats what i did and it works
[12:42] <greycat> you do NOT want to open 8481 and 8888 to the world.
[12:42] <[DH]Chris> lol
[12:42] * [DH]Chris closing
[12:42] <greycat> and 30981 is a randomly chosen number; his may be on a different port.
[12:43] <[DH]Chris> oh right..yeah its in the ini file
[12:43] <[DH]Chris> so why wouldnt i want to open them
[12:43] <greycat> 8888 is your web interface, and 8481 is your application interface to the node (called "FCP")
[12:43] <[DH]Chris> so...means i wouldnt be annonmous anymore
[12:43] <greycat> if 8888 is open to the world you're acting as a public gateway, and people will start using you as their freenet portal
[12:44] <greycat> if you *want* the entire chinese population using you for freenet access, cool... but most people don't have that kind of bandwidth.
[12:44] <chapin> where do i find the random number port?
[12:44] <greycat> chapin: listenPort in the freenet.{conf,ini} file
[12:44] <[DH]Chris> in lke d:\program files\freenet
[12:44] <greycat> 8481 is what apps like Frost use to talk to the node.
[12:45] <chapin> wow i totally didnt know what the hell i was doing lol
[12:45] <[DH]Chris> ahh so lots of the chinese use this then cos of th crappy filter shite, is frost good b) what does it do
[12:45] <greycat> frost is a sort of BBS that runs on top of freenet
[12:45] <[DH]Chris> hmmm
[12:47] <[DH]Chris> is it good grey?
[12:48] <greycat> I've never used it.
[12:48] <[DH]Chris> ah ok
[12:48] <tessier_> frost was a mess last time I tried it a year or two ago.
[12:48] <tessier_> It really depends on freenet working properly.
[12:48] <tessier_> If freenet does not work, frost does not work.
[12:48] <greycat> 5102 seems to be a reasonably working build.
[12:48] <tessier_> So I'm not going to bother any more with frost until I see some real progress on freenet.
[12:49] <[DH]Chris> so this freenet thing, is it like the internet which is connected to via the "internet" but is anamouse
[12:49] <tessier_> [DH]Chris: www.freenetproject.org
[12:49] <greycat> "anonymous", but it's not really analogous to the internet. It's just a file storage and retrieval systme.
[12:49] <tessier_> You can read all about it there
[12:49] <greycat> I2P is more analogous to the Internet.
[12:50] <[DH]Chris> yeah im there but im just wondering how ananymouse it is
[12:50] <tessier_> [DH]Chris: It's not ready for you to store your pics of underage children on, if that's what you mean
[12:50] <tessier_> Although some idiots do anyway.
[12:51] <[DH]Chris> haha wehey, /me deletes nah i just rewaad something on the registry about it being anonymouse or somehting
[12:51] <[DH]Chris> so thought id look
[12:52] <tessier_> The goal is for it to be anon-e-moose but it isn't there yet.
[12:52] <[DH]Chris> ahh ok, nah i just like my anoanytiy, one of those fgreeks
[12:52] <[DH]Chris> freeks*
[12:52] <tessier_> Hopefully after the move to udp and all of the other reworking that is planned it will finally be anonymouse
[12:53] <greycat> I really hope Freenet becomes Anonymous some day. Because then it'll write great poetry. Anonymous is the best poet ever.
[12:53] <[DH]Chris> lol, but i understand that its "harder" per say to find the owner of the files
[12:53] * [DH]Chris n00b attack on the chan AHH >>>
[12:53] <tessier_> I will write Vogon poetry and post it as anonymous and ruin the reputation of the great Anonymous and point to it as a lesson in the Tragedy of the Commons
[12:56] <[DH]Chris> nicew
[12:56] <linyos> apparently russians love to memorize poetry.
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[12:57] <[DH]Chris> why
[12:57] <[DH]Chris> and, wy do you know that lol
[12:57] <linyos> i read it in a book.
[12:58] <linyos> i am writing a gnome feature request to implement a system-wide text color palette.
[12:59] <greycat> I thought you were writing a Freenet node this weekend, in C or C++.
[13:00] <linyos> that urge wore off in an hour or so.
[13:00] <linyos> but i am going to figure out a sneakernet system soon.
[13:00] <linyos> which is actually a productive activity.
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[13:04] <[DH]Chris> so this freenet, running slow as shit atm
[13:04] <[DH]Chris> cos i got a thingy of 60 <#::12 (6/6/60) ::
[13:04] <[DH]Chris> and wth time, this will get quicker
[13:06] <linyos> last time i checked there was nothing on freenet that i wanted to download.
[13:06] <linyos> but that was three years ago.
[13:06] <linyos> i'm betting nothing has changed.
[13:06] <linyos> and i don't care to find out.
[13:07] <[DH]Chris> lol i just get stck on loading....pages
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[13:16] <nextgens> toad_: ?
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[13:33] <linyos> this galloway oil thing is funny.
[13:34] <linyos> i mean, look at his situation: either he's on saddam's payroll... or saddam is so fond of him that he wishes he were on the payroll.
[13:34] <linyos> either way it is politically disasterous.
[13:35] * linyos hopes it's the latter, because that's poetic justice.
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[16:27] <Elly> lalala
[16:28] * [DH]Chris is now known as sf\chris`Gym
[16:34] <linyos> oof oof oof
[16:35] <toad_> [16:46] <[DH]Chris> ahh so lots of the chinese use this then cos of th crappy filter shite, is frost good b) what does it do --- no, they don't, pages with "freenet" in their content are blocked
[16:36] <sf\chris`Gym> ...
[16:36] <sf\chris`Gym> ooo
[16:36] <sf\chris`Gym> ok
[16:36] <sf\chris`Gym> danke
[16:36] <sf\chris`Gym> late but danke
[16:36] * Negi-Sensei (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[16:38] <toad_> sf\chris`Gym: hi
[16:38] <toad_> sf\chris`Gym: what do you want?
[16:39] <linyos> same person
[16:39] <Elly> aww, I'm not in #freenet's access list =(
[16:39] <toad_> Elly: huh?
[16:40] <Elly> [15:40] -ChanServ- -- Access List for [#freenet] --
[16:40] <Elly> [15:40] -ChanServ- Num Level Hostmask Time since last use
[16:40] <Elly> [15:40] -ChanServ- --- ----- -------- -------------------
[16:40] <Elly> [15:40] -ChanServ- 1 30 toad_ 34m 52s
[16:40] <Elly> [15:40] -ChanServ- -- End of list --
[16:40] <toad_> you mean you don't get auto-opped?
[16:40] * mikeeusaa (~dfvjdv@eaa365aa8e1812b1.session.tor) has joined #freenet
[16:40] <mikeeusaa> freenet!
[16:40] <toad_> uh oh
[16:40] <toad_> mikeeusaa: hi
[16:40] <mikeeusaa> hi
[16:40] <mikeeusaa> DTwR
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> (Death To women's Rights)
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> so what's up?
[16:41] <toad_> mikeeusaa: were you trying to tell me something the other day?
[16:41] <Elly> toad_: It claims I don't anyway
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> oh yes
[16:41] <toad_> about the darknet proposal?
[16:41] <Elly> let me test it
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> about the darknet
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> could there be 2 modes, dark and not dark?
[16:41] <mikeeusaa> so for peeps outside of china etc the auto stuff can be done
[16:42] <toad_> we were planning to have two separate networks
[16:42] <mikeeusaa> but for peeps inside bad areas they can shut that off
[16:42] <mikeeusaa> can the net's be bridged?
[16:42] <toad_> but we need to have a large darknet as well as an opennet
[16:42] <toad_> I don't think so
[16:42] <Elly> brb, testing
[16:42] * Elly (elly@ool-182c3b26.dyn.optonline.net) has left #freenet
[16:42] * Elly (elly@ool-182c3b26.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[16:42] <toad_> I'm not convinced routing would work and IMHO we need to validate it
[16:42] <Elly> nope
[16:42] <toad_> I don't think we want to have lots of fragmentary darknets linked by the opennet
[16:43] <spaetz> toad_: why would that be especially bad?
[16:43] <mikeeusaa> perhapse by something in a 3rd mode (where it dosn't leak ips like open nodes, but does connect to both open and darknet)
[16:43] <spaetz> not ideal in any case
[16:43] <spaetz> but would it give away a lot?
[16:43] <toad_> spaetz: well firstly i'd like to show that a pure darknet can scale
[16:43] <toad_> in practice
[16:43] <mikeeusaa> the bridging node would be trusted by the darknet (or else it wouldn't get in the darknet)
[16:43] <toad_> and secondly, i don't think the routing would work
[16:44] <toad_> and thirdly, i don't like the fragment-darknets-linked-by-opennet because it assumes the opennet is perfectly safe
[16:44] <spaetz> toad_: agreed. that should be first goal
[16:44] <toad_> spaetz: <toad_> spaetz: well firstly i'd like to show that a pure darknet can scale ?
[16:45] <linyos> whatever the O complexity of the search, you have to minimize the constant factor.
[16:45] <spaetz> yes. that should be priority 1
[16:45] <linyos> that is really important.
[16:45] <Elly> oh, toad_
[16:45] <Elly> You have AOp set to 'off' in the LEVELS config
[16:46] <toad_> Elly: hmm?
[16:46] <toad_> huh?
[16:47] <Elly> ./cs access #freenet add Elly 10
[16:47] <toad_> linyos: huh?
[16:47] <Elly> and ./cs level #freenet set autoop 10
[16:48] <toad_> what's ./cs ?
[16:48] <linyos> toad_: scalability is defined as the complexity of search = O(some function of n)
[16:48] <spaetz> crypt/BlockCipher.class class file has wrong version 49.0, should be 48.0
[16:48] <spaetz> what is this?
[16:48] <Elly> chanserv
[16:48] <Elly> it's /cs
[16:48] <Elly> but I needed to append a .
[16:48] <spaetz> just trying to compile .7
[16:48] <toad_> linyos: sure, and?
[16:48] <linyos> toad_: the cost of one "n" is also very important to the final result.
[16:49] * Romster (Romster@203.129.154.44) has joined #freenet
[16:49] <toad_> spaetz: ahhh :)
[16:49] <linyos> toad_: in other words, if queries are very cheap, you can be inefficient with them.
[16:49] <linyos> whereas if they are very expensive, the complexity is critical.
[16:50] <linyos> so that's one thing to look at, is all
[16:51] <toad_> the complexity determines the scalability
[16:51] <spaetz> linyos: sure cost of 1*n matters. But for scalability the complexity is way more important
[16:51] <linyos> i think you have to optimize both.
[16:51] <spaetz> 1/2 of infinity is still bad :-)
[16:51] <Elly> toad_: You haven't done it yet =(
[16:52] <toad_> Elly: hmm?
[16:52] <toad_> [20:54] [Notice] -ChanServ- Maintains the channel access list for <channel>.
[16:52] <toad_> [20:54] [Notice] -ChanServ- Users matching a hostmask on the access list will
[16:52] <toad_> [20:54] [Notice] -ChanServ- have access to various ChanServ commands depending on
[16:52] <toad_> [20:54] [Notice] -ChanServ- what level they have (/msg ChanServ HELP LEVEL for
[16:53] <toad_> users matching a hostmask?
[16:53] <Elly> or a nickname
[16:53] <Elly> when they are identified
[16:53] <Elly> see /cs help access
[16:53] <Elly> or /cs help access add
[16:53] <toad_> but will it match users not identified?
[16:53] <Elly> nyet
[16:53] <Elly> if it's a nickname
[16:54] <Elly> it only matches when I'm identified to nickserv
[16:54] <Elly> or I guess you could use my full hostmask
[16:54] <linyos> gnutella produces O(n^2) queries as a function of network size, but even when you have a million nodes making 100 queries every day... if 100 queries is one kilobyte, that's still only a gigabyte of search bandwidth per node per day.
[16:54] <linyos> which is acceptable.
[16:54] <toad_> Elly: I get +o'd by doing /msg chanserv op all iirc...
[16:55] <toad_> linyos: in practice gnutella has big problems due to not scaling. all the p2p networks that work like that have non-global horizons.
[16:55] * mikeeusaa (~dfvjdv@eaa365aa8e1812b1.session.tor) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:55] <greycat> there is a school of thought which says that running around as Op all day is like logging in as root.
[16:55] * toad_ logs in as root, and su's down to other users to do network stuff :)
[16:56] <toad_> e.g. irc, email
[16:56] <Elly> toad_; You can do that because your nickname is on the access list =p
[16:56] <toad_> jabber
[16:56] * mikeeusaa (~dfvjdv@ef0983eda0a21624.session.tor) has joined #freenet
[16:56] <linyos> toad_: in practice gnutella is horribly inefficient, but the time complexity of the search is not a theoretical problem for a million node network.
[16:56] <Elly> greycat: And there is another school of thought that says it's nice to see stuff like op notices
[16:56] <linyos> (mind you, there are other issues with broadcast search, like keeping track of a changing set of nodes)
[16:56] <greycat> you mean wallops? that's been totally separated out in Freenode.
[16:56] <toad_> 1M nodes * 100 reqs/day * 100 bytes/req = 10G/day
[16:56] <toad_> not 1G/day
[16:56] <toad_> per node
[16:57] <linyos> 10 bytes per request, enough for a hash.
[16:57] <Elly> greycat: Besides, I still need access to /cs op and /cs deop
[16:57] <linyos> stick them into a UDP packet
[16:57] <greycat> true.
[16:57] <Elly> even if I'm not always going to be +o
[16:57] <toad_> 10 bytes is not really enough for a hash
[16:57] <Elly> toad_: It depends what the hash is for
[16:57] <Elly> if you're just checksumming, CRC32 would be okay
[16:57] <toad_> 10 bytes is not enough for hash ADDRESSING
[16:57] <Elly> ah
[16:58] <spaetz> linyos: however small the packet. when the network is large enough complexity matters way more
[16:58] <toad_> and if each node produces only 100 requests per day each one will be its own packet
[16:58] <toad_> meaning it will be around 28 bytes of packet protocol overhead alone
[16:58] <linyos> spaetz: but as long as the network is never that large (however large that is), it is not a problem.
[16:58] <toad_> plus crypto overhead etc
[16:58] <linyos> toad_: in my super gnutella scheme, each node would send one packet to each other node every day.
[16:58] <linyos> the queries would be bundled.
[16:59] <linyos> the queries would be scheduled according to the time of day, so that each two nodes had some particular second during which they could communicate.
[16:59] <linyos> that averages out the load.
[17:00] <linyos> the point is that the math worked, the queries would reach the entire network every day.
[17:01] <linyos> while only using like 10% of a typical connectionn for incoming search queries from everyone else.
[17:01] <toad_> 1G/day is 10% of a typical connection?
[17:01] <toad_> also you'd need request IDs
[17:02] <linyos> my 160byte/sec connection transfers 13 gigs per day
[17:02] <linyos> you just send your query at the right time, and the queried node sends back a reply of a bitfield that indicates which files he has.
[17:02] <linyos> the transfers happen out of ban
[17:02] <linyos> d
[17:03] <linyos> i mean 160kbytes/sec
[17:04] <toad_> you'd need request IDs
[17:04] <toad_> because more than one client might request a given file
[17:04] <toad_> and you need to prevent loops
[17:04] <linyos> the queries just detect availability, "do you have this?"
[17:04] <linyos> then you connect with HTTP to download it, just like gnutella.
[17:04] <linyos> so there is no state.
[17:05] <toad_> you still need query IDs to prevent infinitely repropagating the same query
[17:05] <linyos> i'm just bringing this up to illustrate how even an "unscalable" O(n^2) algorithm can be used so long as "n" is not too big.
[17:05] <linyos> there is no propagation.
[17:05] <toad_> of course there is
[17:05] <toad_> it's a broadcast
[17:06] <toad_> A sends to all its neighbours
[17:06] <toad_> B sends to all its neighbours, including A
[17:06] <toad_> A then sends it to B again
[17:06] <linyos> oh, no.. every node is your neighbor.
[17:06] <toad_> and B sends it to A again
[17:06] <toad_> and...
[17:06] <linyos> you keep a list of a million IP addresses
[17:06] <toad_> linyos: you send one packet to each node? hmmm
[17:06] <linyos> update it every day from the central server.
[17:06] <linyos> and every day, you iterate through those addresses, sending that day's queries.
[17:06] <toad_> with an average of 100 requests in the packet
[17:06] <spaetz> linyos: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
[17:06] <linyos> or whatever.
[17:07] <spaetz> and how is that freenet related?
[17:07] <linyos> 100, 10, 15.
[17:07] <linyos> spaetz: i'm illustrating how scalability isn't everything.
[17:07] <linyos> O(n^2) sucks, but it works for a million-node gnutella style p2p network
[17:07] <linyos> it works perfectly.
[17:07] <spaetz> scalability is easy if you connect to every other node in the network
[17:07] <spaetz> won't work for freenet though
[17:08] <spaetz> gnutella with a central server? mmmhhh
[17:08] <linyos> well, my scheme would not scale if there were 10 million nodes, so there is a limit.
[17:08] * spaetz is sceptical
[17:08] <linyos> it's just a thought experiment, there is no need for nitpicking.
[17:09] <spaetz> :)
[17:09] <toad_> hmmm no nextgens...
[17:10] <toad_> okay i propose to put one more 510X out
[17:11] <spaetz> 510X ?
[17:11] <spaetz> ahh
[17:11] <greycat> stable build
[17:11] <spaetz> got it
[17:11] <toad_> now, changes will be pretty minor
[17:11] <toad_> but:
[17:11] <toad_> - fix the "please report me to devl@freenetproject.org...." on Transfer Failed Exceptions
[17:11] <spaetz> remove all the "bug the dev list with" :)
[17:11] <toad_> hopefully make them really reported as what they are
[17:11] <spaetz> hah I knew it!
[17:11] * Rom|Away (Romster@203.129.154.44) Quit (Connection timed out)
[17:12] <toad_> - update the default bookmarks
[17:12] <toad_> I need some new index site links
[17:12] <toad_> FIND is down, it used to link to some good ones
[17:12] <toad_> anyone know some?
[17:12] <spaetz> I thought you'd just remove the "bug the dev mailing list" messages
[17:12] <spaetz> yoy still up. that yahoo like group?
[17:12] <greycat> all the indices but TFE seem to have gone away.
[17:12] * spaetz hasn't been on stable for ages
[17:14] <toad_> all the ones on the web interface yes
[17:14] <toad_> but there were others
[17:14] <linyos> hmm, on hash sizes: the probability of collision is defined as (number of possible hashes) / (number of existing documents). so you just pick a maximum document count you're designing the system to scale to, and divide that by the acceptable worst probability of collision.
[17:15] <toad_> well maybe but there are also crypto issues if you want it to be reliable against spammers
[17:15] <toad_> e.g. we should probably use 256-bit hashes
[17:15] <gregh> that's not the collision probability
[17:15] <toad_> currently we use 160-bit
[17:16] <gregh> look up the birthday paradox, ie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_paradox
[17:16] <linyos> so for a billion documents, and a .001 worst-case probability of collision, you need 40 bits of hash.
[17:16] <linyos> gregh: what's wrong with my logic? i think it is obvious.
[17:16] <linyos> but i'm bad at math.
[17:16] <gregh> it seems obvious, but it's not. read that page
[17:17] <toad_> the rule of thumb is you divide the bitlength by two and raise 2 to the power of it
[17:17] <toad_> I worked out the maths a while ago, it does work
[17:18] <linyos> that page is full of math, i'm not going to try to decipher it.
[17:18] <linyos> i know about the birthday paradox.
[17:18] <gregh> the short answer is that it's not just a simple ratio
[17:19] <linyos> i think of it like having an array of 100 slots, and you throw balls at it
[17:19] <gregh> that would be determining the probability that there is a collision with a *specific* hash
[17:19] <linyos> clearly, when no slots are occupied with balls, your probabilty of collision is zero
[17:19] <linyos> and when all are occupied, 100%
[17:19] <gregh> but you want to know whether there's a combination of *any two* hashes
[17:19] <linyos> when half are occupied, 50%
[17:20] <gregh> yes, you're calculating the probability of matching a specific hash
[17:20] <linyos> therefore, to limit the chance that your ball collides, you have to limit the ratio of filled slots to total slots.
[17:20] <gregh> but if you throw 50 balls at those 100 slots, there's a much better than 50% chance that two of them will collide
[17:20] <linyos> gregh: you're just confused about the design criteria for the hash function. it's no big deal if somebody can come up with two documents that hash to the same thing.
[17:21] <spaetz> linyos: I doubt he is confused. He is pretty much right
[17:21] <toad_> linyos: it's a big deal for some applications
[17:21] <linyos> maybe he's right, i'm no mathematician.
[17:21] <toad_> linyos: it's a big deal for P2P using it as an address, IMHO
[17:21] <linyos> gregh: but that doesn't matter
[17:22] <gregh> if you're identifying content by hash, it most certainly does matter
[17:22] <linyos> toad_: no, it's not. in the gnutella system, you could verify the document with a bigger hash to make sure that it wasn't inserted by some script kiddie who has a colliding document that he later inserts to blow up your computer or whatever
[17:22] <linyos> it doesn't matter for my specific design.
[17:23] <toad_> linyos: just because you can verify the document with a bigger hash does NOT mean that you can't DoS the document by breaking the hash on the individual chunks
[17:23] <linyos> the only security property is that you shouldn't be able to, given hash X, find another document that hashes to that
[17:23] <toad_> we have an overall hash in freenet splitfiles too
[17:23] <toad_> linyos: right
[17:24] <linyos> toad_: that's not the birthday attack though. it has 2^hashbits compexity, not 2^(hashbits/2) complexity
[17:24] <toad_> okay yeah
[17:24] <toad_> birthday attack matters in other things
[17:24] <linyos> no argument there.
[17:24] <toad_> some authentication stuff, maybe PK crypto
[17:27] <toad_> hmmm
[17:27] <toad_> is there an easy way to create one of the regularly reported transfer failed WrongStateExceptions?
[17:28] <linyos> octave:11> log2(2^40 / 0.0000001)
[17:28] <linyos> ans = 63.253
[17:28] <linyos> if my math is right, that means a 64-bit hash can accommodate a set of 2^40 documents with a 0.0000001 chance of collision for each document.
[17:29] <linyos> in other words, 64 bits is ample.
[17:30] <linyos> i guess, unless you are worried about some quantum computer doing 2^64 hashes to DOS your file
[17:30] <toad_> or 2^24 hashes to DoS any file
[17:31] <linyos> if somebody is ramming the system full of billions of junk files, you have bigger problems.
[17:31] <toad_> hmmm
[17:31] <toad_> interesting take on CofE on the Ian=CofE theory#
[17:31] <linyos> oh, well i guess if you know all the hashes already.
[17:32] <linyos> hmm
[17:33] <toad_> interesting update really
[17:33] <toad_> anyway, next job...
[17:34] <toad_> Contract length: 32024 = 533:44
[17:34] <toad_> ugh
[17:34] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/multi-whacky-graph.png
[17:37] * toad_ looks around for alternative freenet portals
[17:40] <toad_> hmmm
[17:40] <toad_> i can't get OFIFY or DFI...
[17:41] <toad_> can anyone get ANY index sites apart from TFE?
[17:42] <linyos> i'd volunteer to put together a big page of socially acceptable material to link to from the start page.
[17:42] * FallingBuzzar1 (~srademach@66.151.22.70) has left #freenet
[17:42] <linyos> it would be more useful to the users than the indexes, which are full of conceited bloggers, unreliable sites, and porn.
[17:43] <greycat> toad_: I can't. And it's been that way since FIND/Sonax announced he's going away.
[17:43] <toad_> SSK@z2VuP6druFs3s9dcRJKaKIVoH-kPAgM,O9vrq9Y4Rk~RL4TgtNm0qA/hwi/11//
[17:43] <toad_> HWI is up
[17:45] <greycat> ah. that's not one of the ones I'm used to.
[17:45] <greycat> it's also not DBR.
[17:45] <greycat> ``Index Generated: 2005-03-22 01:25:49 GMT''
[17:45] <greycat> ``Edition #$#e:ps.ednum+1;'' heh.
[17:46] <toad_> :(
[17:46] * toad_ drops subtle hints that we need more indexes...
[17:46] <toad_> WE NEED MORE DBR INDEXES !
[17:46] <spaetz> hehe
[17:46] <spaetz> on stable, right? or on unstable
[17:46] <greycat> I'd hate to see what your non-subtle ones look like.
[17:47] <toad_> they involve baseball bats
[17:47] <toad_> and skywriting
[17:48] <toad_> :)
[17:51] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-81-153.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[17:53] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[17:55] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d5152629C.access.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[17:56] <linyos> a pretty formatted edition of the complete gutenberg library would be a good thing to link to from the start page even alongside the indexes.
[17:56] <linyos> i know it would impress me if i were trying freenet for the first time.
[17:57] <toad_> spaetz: on stable
[17:57] <toad_> linyos: do you think it would get enough hits to stay on freenet?
[17:57] <toad_> if so, build one
[17:59] <linyos> i suppose one could hope that at least the more popular books would be reliable enough.
[17:59] <linyos> i will look into it soon
[18:01] <toad_> i can't get into the cluster...
[18:04] * sf\chris`Gym is back after 1h35m: Gone To Run Without Going Anywhere(Gym)
[18:04] * sf\chris`Gym is now known as [DH]Chris
[18:04] * Negi-Sensei (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[18:07] <toad_> [DH]Chris: hi
[18:07] <toad_> [DH]Chris: how's your node?
[18:07] <toad_> Negi-Sensei: how's your node?
[18:08] <[DH]Chris> hmm lemme check
[18:08] <[DH]Chris> i just got back from gym
[18:08] <toad_> (and which sensei does your name refer to?)
[18:08] <[DH]Chris> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 19 (12/7/60) << still on 60 but its now 19 which is more then befor
[18:10] <[DH]Chris> ergh keep gettinv couldnt retrieve key or theotehr crappy error
[18:11] <[DH]Chris> and it really as slow as shite
[18:15] <spaetz> freenet *is* currently slow
[18:15] <[DH]Chris> so my reason for using it is....
[18:16] <[DH]Chris> or will my speed increse that 60 number go up to like 200 or something
[18:16] <spaetz> anonymity and being on the edge of technology :-) ?
[18:16] <[DH]Chris> (22:18:17) (spaetz) anonymity <> people said earlyier it was anonmouse
[18:17] <[DH]Chris> was NOT***
[18:17] <spaetz> it is as anonymous as it gets.
[18:18] <[DH]Chris> lol ok
[18:18] <[DH]Chris> more then, then the internet then
[18:18] <spaetz> ask toad for potential attacks, he would know best
[18:18] <spaetz> but it should be pretty safe even right now
[18:19] <[DH]Chris> the light at the end of the tunnel is total anonamyty then
[18:19] <spaetz> it is not anonymous in the sense that it won't remain a secret that you run a node
[18:19] <[DH]Chris> but like now, it is possible to be cought say, looking at i duno making bombs, but less likley then search "arnicisk cook book" on google lol
[18:20] * TheSeeker (Fridlekh@pool-71-107-161-8.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #Freenet
[18:20] <spaetz> but what you exactly publish and retrieve will not be known without serious (ie ISP or government) effort
[18:20] <[DH]Chris> ah so basically unless i am a known IRA terroist, nobody has any reason to lok that deep
[18:20] <spaetz> yep
[18:20] <[DH]Chris> intresting, tbh i have never haeard of this, so weired ive like heard of everything else but never this,
[18:21] <linyos> the nodes you connect to will also be able to make guesses about what you are doing.
[18:21] <gregh> everything else? heh
[18:21] <toad_> [DH]Chris: limit is 60, because you're running on Windows 98
[18:21] <[DH]Chris> lol
[18:21] <toad_> will always be 60
[18:21] <[DH]Chris> riught...XP sp2 is now win98 is it ?:S
[18:21] <toad_> [DH]Chris: speed will increase with time
[18:22] <[DH]Chris> (OS) Windows XP Home Edition, Service Pack 2 (5.1 - 2600), (installed for) 3w 3d 1h 55m, (uptime) 4h 4m 41s, (record) 1w 1d 19h 1m 23s (set on 15.03.2005 12:27 using WinXP)
[18:22] <toad_> yes it's more anon than the internet is
[18:22] <[DH]Chris> yeah i been reading that, but on my home page thingy its like onl a few links, where can i find other freenet pages
[18:22] <toad_> [DH]Chris: okay, so why is the limit 60 then?
[18:22] <toad_> that's odd...
[18:22] <toad_> check the config file
[18:22] <toad_> does it set it explicitly to 60?
[18:22] <[DH]Chris> no idear mate i jsut sitnalled, opend router ports and away i go
[18:23] <[DH]Chris> Max Connections: 60
[18:23] <toad_> maxNodeConnections=60 in the config file?
[18:23] <[DH]Chris> lemme check file i was i the config thiny
[18:24] <toad_> freenet.ini
[18:24] <[DH]Chris> maxNodeConnections=60
[18:24] <[DH]Chris> there
[18:24] <toad_> hmmm
[18:24] <toad_> increase it to 200
[18:24] <[DH]Chris> tjhays jsut stock install
[18:24] <[DH]Chris> ok
[18:24] <toad_> how did it get to be 60?!
[18:25] <[DH]Chris> no idear i jsut installed and that was it
[18:25] <[DH]Chris> should i re-start it
[18:25] <[DH]Chris> guess so
[18:25] <toad_> yes
[18:26] <[DH]Chris> done and done
[18:26] <toad_> okay, so now how do i graph these along with the rest?
[18:26] <[DH]Chris> ermmm <> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 19 (16/3/60)
[18:27] <[DH]Chris> wtf didnt save
[18:28] <[DH]Chris> ahh
[18:28] <[DH]Chris> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 6 (6/0/200) ok <> thanks lads
[18:32] <Elly> toad_, freenet is using 160MB of RAM
[18:33] <toad_> Elly: that's bad?
[18:33] <Elly> was using =D
[18:33] <Elly> well yeam
[18:33] <Elly> I'm trying to run OO, Firefox, and XChat too
[18:34] <toad_> ... and you only have 256M because you're a poor student?
[18:34] <toad_> whose parents bought you a car but not a PC
[18:34] <Elly> no, I have 512
[18:34] <toad_> that should be approximately enough...
[18:34] <Elly> and I'm not living away from home =D
[18:34] <Elly> apparently not
[18:35] <toad_> :(
[18:35] <[DH]Chris> at unit
[18:35] <Elly> 7836 freenet 15 0 380m 159m 3444 S 1.6 31.9 0:15.90 java
[18:35] <[DH]Chris> n still at home
[18:35] <[DH]Chris> pfft
[18:35] <Elly> box slows down with freenet running
[18:35] <Elly> so does my net connection
[18:35] <Elly> which is rather inexplicable
[18:36] <linyos> so buy some memory, renice the node, and set up traffic shaping
[18:37] <toad_> or just reduce the bandwidth limit
[18:38] <Elly> hmm
[18:38] <Elly> ahhh
[18:38] <toad_> so far log^2(N) requests per cycle looks promising...
[18:39] <toad_> okay, bbiab
[18:39] <Elly> freenet has been niced
[18:41] <Elly> I'm in thread city, man!
[18:41] <Elly> note to self: inbound rate limiting DOES help
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[20:14] <linyos> hmm, why not structure searching as constrained broadcast plus 'accelerators'
[20:15] <linyos> like, requests for various files are randomly shooting around, and then you could layer over that all sorts of different search mechanisms
[20:15] <linyos> so you have stupid nodes and smarter nodes, etc
[20:16] <linyos> that way, you fall back to the constrained broadcast if nobody knows any better
[20:16] <linyos> which works approximately.
[20:16] <linyos> or the superior search mechanisms work even better.
[20:18] <linyos> the regression to constrained broadcast, which often works well enough, at least for relatively popular files, makes the system resilient.
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[21:55] <Lollergator> hihi
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[22:23] <linyos> thinking about how to physically move the data in the sneakernet
[22:24] <linyos> dvdrws might be too much of a pain
[22:24] <linyos> since you have to remember to burn the things
[22:24] <linyos> if only to stick the dumb disk in the drive
[22:25] <linyos> so, if you have a laptop you can just bring your laptop when you meet your friend at the bar
[22:25] <linyos> but desktops might be around for a long time
[22:26] <linyos> on the other hand a dvdrw might be more convenient to carry than a laptop
[22:27] <linyos> external hard disks are an option.
[22:27] <Elly> yeah
[22:27] <Elly> 40GB USB disks
[22:30] <linyos> the process has to be totally effortless
[22:30] <linyos> otherwise people will get sick of the thing
[22:31] <linyos> and it has to be cheap, can't require wacky hardware.
[22:31] <Elly> make a script that automatically moves files from your sneakernet dir to the hardware
[22:31] <linyos> yeah, the programming is not the problem as i see it.
[22:31] <linyos> that part could be totally automatic
[22:32] <linyos> but ultimately people have to move the data, and that part is trickier.
[22:32] <Elly> *shrug*
[22:33] <linyos> i mean, if it is a hassle, you will have some hard core of users who get great utility from the system and therefore continue doing it anyway.
[22:33] <Elly> what I'd do
[22:33] <linyos> but the rest will say, it's not worth the bother
[22:33] <Elly> is just make a wifi network
[22:34] <Elly> have everyone donate a few gig of drive space
[22:34] <linyos> wifi would be totally great if only the users had laptops.
[22:34] <Elly> wimax.
[22:34] <linyos> then bob and joe just meet in the park and their laptops do the transfer automatically while they talk.,
[22:35] <Elly> wimax
[22:36] <linyos> even an ethernet crossover cable would be pretty easy.
[22:36] <Elly> wimax.
[22:36] <Elly> range in the several-mile area
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[22:37] <linyos> i wouldn't want to make long-distance wireless transfers a design requirement. they are too easy to detect.
[22:37] <linyos> but it is an option.
[22:37] <Elly> *shrug*
[22:38] <Elly> it's the easiest option of all for starting your own net
[22:39] <linyos> but also a good way to scream "hey look, somebody is transferring a bunch of data over here!!!"
[22:39] <linyos> anyway.
[22:39] <linyos> the system has to work naturally with high privacy requirements. person to person meetings, connect the transfer cable or exchange the media, etc.
[22:40] <linyos> people will do it because at every meeting they have some chance of receiving a document they are waiting for.
[22:42] <linyos> maybe we can just say "buy a cheap laptop if you want convenience"
[22:42] <linyos> otherwise you can burn media
[22:43] <linyos> or maybe there is a middle way
[22:43] <linyos> since media, you can burn ten DVDs while you're watching booty videos and pass them out all over the next day
[22:44] <Elly> yeah but it's a PITA
[22:44] <linyos> and laptops, you can spontaneously do transfers
[22:44] <linyos> agreed, media is going to be a hassle no matter what.
[22:45] <linyos> maybe it has a place, i dunno.
[22:45] <linyos> BUT ONE DAY I WILL KNOW!!1!!!1!!!!
[22:48] <Elly> lol
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[22:54] <linyos> so the preferred conception would be: two or more people meet in the bar with their laptops. the laptops spontaneously connect via wireless and start transferring bits of data to each other.
[22:54] <linyos> people leave, repeat the same thing with the next ad-hoc group.
[22:54] <linyos> data moves all over.
[22:56] <linyos> that would require absolutely no effort by the users, besides remembering to bring their laptops and waiting for the 'file downloaded!' dialog box to pop up one day.
[22:57] <linyos> anyway, it is all doubly justified because desktop computers are evil. they keep you stuck in a room all day.
[22:58] <linyos> so you get your free networking and an excuse to get outside.
[23:03] <mikeeusaa> oh man that would be an awsome feature for freenet
[23:03] <mikeeusaa> but linux wireless support isn't easiest to set up
[23:03] <mikeeusaa> but adding that feature would be one more thing in a rather nice data swap system
[23:04] <linyos> mikeeusaa: one day you'll tell your grandkids how you were there when computer networking was changed forever.
[23:04] <linyos> and then your laptops will spontaneously exchange documents.
[23:04] <mikeeusaa> that would also be great for pdas
[23:05] <linyos> yes
[23:05] <mikeeusaa> and since freenet is in java
[23:05] <mikeeusaa> we can also use that
[23:05] <mikeeusaa> with the pdas /laptops freenet could maqurade perhapse a wep stuff etc
[23:05] <mikeeusaa> though a root level handler might need to be made
[23:06] <mikeeusaa> because that would need raw ip stuff
[23:06] <mikeeusaa> or would it?
[23:06] <mikeeusaa> (root levl handler should be in C... securely programed with the secure functions)
[23:06] <linyos> WEP is like wireless?
[23:06] <linyos> i am pretty out of touch with today's buzzwords.
[23:07] <mikeeusaa> Wireless Encryption Protocall
[23:07] <mikeeusaa> freenet data could masqurade as it
[23:08] <linyos> it may be too much to ask, since the transfers will be so unusual looking compared to, say, web traffic.
[23:08] <linyos> you would just hope that orwellian network monitors are not set up in the bar
[23:09] <linyos> in that case, you would want to transfer your data in private at home, with a wire.
[23:09] <linyos> while you plot against big brother.
[23:10] <mikeeusaa> nope
[23:10] <mikeeusaa> with wep "enabled" all traffic goes over wep
[23:10] <mikeeusaa> that's alot of traffic
[23:11] <mikeeusaa> we can make freenet data look like wep
[23:11] <linyos> i know, but there's traffic and then there's traffic
[23:11] <mikeeusaa> freenet radiates traffic, not _traffic_
[23:11] <mikeeusaa> bittorret radiates _traffic_
[23:12] <linyos> it's a hard problem in any situation. if you take, say, web browsing throughput, and plot it in time on a graph, it will have distinctive characteristics.
[23:12] <mikeeusaa> well you can have time-data patterns
[23:12] <linyos> it is not easy to force freenet traffic to conform to to that statistical pattern.
[23:12] <mikeeusaa> to match normal wireless traffic
[23:12] <linyos> it's a possibility.
[23:12] <mikeeusaa> since you'll just be sitting at a bar etc
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> need to save dl states ofcourse
[23:13] <linyos> just not an easy problem.
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> then slow down
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> stop for awhile
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> it's not that hard I don't think
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> just need to kismet near hotspot and watch
[23:13] <mikeeusaa> and then modle this stenography mode
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[23:14] <mikeeusaa> hi lonescout
[23:14] <mikeeusaa> sup G?
[23:14] <lonescout> hi, how's it ooing
[23:14] <linyos> if there's an internet gateway router there, wouldn't all legitimate web browsing traffic go there?
[23:14] <linyos> your freenet traffic would go directly between the laptops.
[23:15] <linyos> or is destination information not sniffable.
[23:15] <linyos> whatever, it is not a big deal either way.
[23:22] <mikeeusaa> just have to make the huristics (correct word) look believable
[23:22] <mikeeusaa> (correct word?) rather
[23:22] <Elly> heuristics
[23:22] <mikeeusaa> thanks
[23:25] <linyos> the network could be modeled. the model is basically that you have this set of storage units. consider one unit at one point in time. it will interact, at this point in time, with other unit X with probability N.
[23:26] <linyos> the probability distribution would have to reflect reality.
[23:26] <mikeeusaa> yes
[23:26] <mikeeusaa> I don't think it would be too difficult
[23:26] <linyos> so once you have that going, you can think about how to implement services on top.
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[23:27] <linyos> you could see how quickly data moves from one point to another
[23:27] <linyos> and make various observations
[23:27] <mikeeusaa> yes
[23:28] <mikeeusaa> I think someone should write this down
[23:28] <mikeeusaa> as it's doable
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
