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[6:38] <nextgens> hi
[6:43] <Synonymous> hi
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[8:42] <Synonymous> wb
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[12:15] <thelema> I assume everyone has seen newsbyte's Freenet story on freenet.
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[12:32] <hobx_> hehe
[12:35] * mikeeusaa (~rvm@fe805ba173d8e90d.session.tor) has joined #freenet
[12:35] <mikeeusaa> hello
[12:36] <hobx_> hey, Mikee, start submitting stories to Slashdot!
[12:36] <mikeeusaa> ?
[12:36] <hobx_> Submit that everybody in this channel is gay or something, it is sure to get through.
[12:37] <mikeeusaa> ah
[12:37] <mikeeusaa> perhapse
[12:37] <hobx_> It seems like publishing rambling nonsense posts from trolls is their new policy...
[12:37] <hobx_> (new?)
[12:37] <mikeeusaa> I wonder if Death To women's Rights with enough ramble will get through?
[12:37] <mikeeusaa> also I read the darknet proposial and I like it
[12:37] <hobx_> put in a reference to Freenet and I'm sure it is.
[12:38] <mikeeusaa> but it would be nice if we could have both (cake and eat)
[12:38] <mikeeusaa> so some people could be with the harvestable nodes
[12:38] * tessier_ (~treed@203.210.212.17) has joined #freenet
[12:38] <mikeeusaa> and others in more communist countries could just do things by invites
[12:38] <tessier_> ROFLMAO
[12:38] <mikeeusaa> +stenography
[12:38] <tessier_> Well, Freenet is getting more publicity thanks to /. :)
[12:39] <tessier_> mikeeusaa: I'm in Vietnam. Communist all the way. :(
[12:39] * mikeeusaa always wanted stenography in FN
[12:39] <tessier_> There are hammer and cicle flags hanging outside my door. I shit you not.
[12:39] <mikeeusaa> tessier_, do the produckts suck?
[12:39] <tessier_> mikeeusaa: Yes.
[12:39] <mikeeusaa> what about the women
[12:39] <tessier_> They are slowly changing and opening up to the world (otherwise I could not be here) but it is going to take many more years to undo the damage.
[12:40] <mikeeusaa> (are they all pro-equality for themselves)
[12:40] <tessier_> April 30th was "Liberation Day" aka the day they defeated the US.
[12:40] <tessier_> mikeeusaa: The women are very traditional and conservative.
[12:40] <tessier_> They don't make noise about equality.
[12:40] <mikeeusaa> ah well that's good
[12:40] <mikeeusaa> though it depends on what traditions there are
[12:40] <mikeeusaa> like in thailand
[12:41] <mikeeusaa> .... well microsurgery is very advanced there
[12:42] * mikeeusaa wonders why the men there don't cap the women who do those rather bad things to their husbands
[12:42] <mikeeusaa> FNet is going udp etc soon
[12:42] <mikeeusaa> which means it will work on kaffe
[12:42] <mikeeusaa> and I can put my node back up :D
[12:43] <mikeeusaa> (du to not needing NIO anymore)
[12:44] <mikeeusaa> tessier_, what's the music like?
[12:44] <mikeeusaa> do they have those military marches like they did in old soviet russia?
[12:47] <tessier_> I don't hear much military marches.
[12:47] <tessier_> There seems to be two kinds of music: modern super-sappy and shallow love ballads and traditional skinning-a-cat vietnamese wailing music.
[12:48] <mikeeusaa> o annoying it must be
[12:48] * mikeeusaa dislikes the chilvarous sap love and cat-voices
[12:49] <tessier_> Yes. I just don't dig the music.
[12:49] <tessier_> I am taking a vietnamese class.
[12:50] <mikeeusaa> wish more java oss devs would come to freenet, would make the transition to udp etc faster
[12:50] <tessier_> To^i ho.c tie^'ng Vie.t
[12:50] <tessier_> Wish freenet would stop beating the dead java horse. :(
[12:50] <mikeeusaa> yes as do I, but that's the lang Ian chose
[12:50] <tessier_> Every java guy I know won't touch freenet. Says Java is great and the only reason freenet sucks so badly is because the coders don't know what they are doing.
[12:50] <tessier_> I find that hard to believe.
[12:51] <tessier_> I used to advocate freenet quite a bit, especially around 4 years ago.
[12:51] <tessier_> Expecting that in a year it would be doing awesome things and saving the free world from fascism.
[12:51] <tessier_> Oh well.
[12:52] <mikeeusaa> java does get rid of the possiblity of buff overflows (to my knowledge)
[12:52] <mikeeusaa> which is good in such an app
[12:52] <mikeeusaa> but so does perl
[12:52] <mikeeusaa> if freenet had more then 1 active programmer... it would have
[12:52] <gregh> python has been used successfully in other projects of this type such as bittorrent
[12:53] <mikeeusaa> perhapse since fn is going to be redone anyway it should change langs?
[12:53] * thelema|away (~thelema@193.220.86.4) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[12:53] <greycat> Ian would have a conniption
[12:53] <tessier_> Just about any modern lang gets rid of buffer overflows.
[12:54] <tessier_> I'm afraid Ian has religious affiliation with java.
[12:54] <mikeeusaa> greycat: give him an oriley book
[12:54] <hobx_> gregh: Name one.
[12:54] <gregh> one what?
[12:55] <mikeeusaa> who is hobx6 in #crossfire btw?
[12:55] <mikeeusaa> (or a nick similar)
[12:55] <mikeeusaa> for all the times I've been there
[12:55] <mikeeusaa> it seems to be a girl
[12:56] <hobx_> gregh: I missed that you said Bittorrent at the end, sorry. Bittorrent is nothing like freenet.
[12:56] <gregh> it's a bulk data transfer internet application.
[12:56] <hobx_> mikeeusaa: How should I know.
[12:56] <mikeeusaa> http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=149637&threshold=-1&commentsort=0&tid=156&mode=thread&pid=12543875#12543926
[12:57] <gregh> of course the project goals and such are different between bittorrent and freenet, but that's not what I'm talking about.
[12:57] * avocado (~avocado@24-155-160-173.dyn.grandenetworks.net) has joined #freenet
[12:57] <hobx_> but bulk internet transfer is not freenet's main problem by a long shot.
[12:58] <hobx_> You might as well say httpd...
[12:58] <gregh> also there was a project called mojonation which was very much more like freenet, also in python, but it died for political reasons
[12:58] <hobx_> no, it died because it didn't work well.
[12:58] <greycat> that's a much better example
[12:58] <gregh> what I'm trying to say is that there is nothing about java that makes it specifically suitable for freenet.
[12:58] <hobx_> Just like Freenet.
[12:58] <hobx_> no, but there is nothing about Python that makes it more suitable.
[12:59] <mikeeusaa> better freesoftware compat
[12:59] <gregh> yes that's true
[12:59] <hobx_> If anything, Freenet should have been written in C/C++
[12:59] <greycat> python has a free implementation.
[12:59] <greycat> java doesn't.
[12:59] <hobx_> But the code is not the main problem.
[12:59] <gregh> ok you've pointed out two things that are not the problem, what's the main problem in your view?
[12:59] * tessier_ peeks in on freenet-tech which he hasn't looked at in a month
[12:59] <hobx_> greycat: Back in the day we tracked kaffe. I developed on it.
[13:00] <tessier_> greycat: I favor python also, not that it matters what I think.
[13:00] <hobx_> Now i think gcj4 should work.
[13:00] <mikeeusaa> but we dont anymore
[13:00] <mikeeusaa> which is a problme
[13:00] <mikeeusaa> *em
[13:00] <greycat> yes, kaffe is free, and for what it can do, it's quite good... but it doesn't implement the whole of java, unfortunately.
[13:00] <hobx_> gregh: The system doesn't work.
[13:00] <gregh> that's pretty general.
[13:00] <mikeeusaa> freenet on kaffe broke when fnet went to NIO
[13:01] <mikeeusaa> I hear fn is going to udp and chucking NIO
[13:01] <hobx_> The algorithms don't do what they are supposed to do, and the development model has been non-scientific and haphhazard so nobody has a clue where what breaks.
[13:01] <tessier_> Just wait until Sun does something that screws the free software world over and freenet comes to a standstill.
[13:01] <mikeeusaa> freenet dosn't have to uses all sun's new crap
[13:01] <gregh> if that happens, somebody will port freenet to C#. :)
[13:01] <hobx_> tessier_: How could they do that?
[13:01] <mikeeusaa> hopefully the devs will resist the temptation
[13:01] <tessier_> hobx: I think the original routing idea should have been proven without involving cryptography as a sort of bittorrent like app without the tracker problem before they tackled the rest of the problem.
[13:02] <greycat> The early freenet models all used nodes that were on 24/7. I think that was a fundamental conceptual error.
[13:02] <tessier_> But freenet constantly tries to swallow the problem whole.
[13:02] <hobx_> tessier_: Perhaps.
[13:02] <tessier_> And anonymity pretty much guarentees you can't debug your network.
[13:02] <hobx_> Yes, I agree.
[13:03] <mikeeusaa> freenet can't get my young obedient wives that have recently reached menarche :(
[13:03] <tessier_> menarche?
[13:03] <mikeeusaa> I think it needs that feature
[13:03] <mikeeusaa> tessier_, menarche == when they can have children
[13:03] <mikeeusaa> usually happens at 12/13/14
[13:03] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-77-17.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[13:03] <hobx_> Matthew shouldn't have taken my op away
[13:03] <Redb3ard> you guys have made slashdot frontpage again
[13:04] <hobx_> if he isn't around to ban mikeeusa
[13:04] <mikeeusaa> hobx, are you suggesting that you are against having young wives?
[13:04] <hobx_> Redb3ard: What else is new?
[13:04] * mikeeusaa can't be banned
[13:04] <mikeeusaa> you've tried countless times
[13:05] * mikeeusaa (~rvm@fe805ba173d8e90d.session.tor) Quit (".")
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[13:05] <mikeeusaa> freenode Tor problems.
[13:06] <sanity> hobx: that is what /ignore is for
[13:06] <mikeeusaa> peeps have run freenet over tor?
[13:06] <hobx_> yes, I already did
[13:06] <mikeeusaa> sanity, peeps have run freenet over tor?
[13:06] <hobx_> Happy about todays slashdotting?
[13:15] * avocado (~avocado@24-155-160-173.dyn.grandenetworks.net) has left #freenet
[13:15] <hobx_> I think your response to The Register article is incorrect, Ian.
[13:15] <hobx_> Why would one need to break into somebodies computer to time how fast the node responds to queries for the data in a splitfile?
[13:16] <hobx_> All you need to do is request the keys from the node.
[13:18] <tessier_> mikeeusaa: Interesting. I have heard of menopause but had never heard of menarche.
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[13:23] <Synonymous> what freenet story of newsbyte's on freenet?
[13:24] <hobx_> eh?
[13:25] <Synonymous> <thelema> I assume everyone has seen newsbyte's Freenet story on freenet.
[13:25] <Synonymous> I see it's on slashdot
[13:25] <mikeeusaa> yea
[13:25] <mikeeusaa> YEA!
[13:25] <Synonymous> i'm going to go read it
[13:26] <mikeeusaa> F' YEAH, AMERICA!
[13:30] <tessier_> newsbyte has always been the freenet gadfly :)
[13:31] <tessier_> I'm sure sanity is pleased with this. :)
[13:31] <sanity> yeah, its funny, about half the comments on the story are about what a troll Newsbyte is :-)
[13:31] <tessier_> Look at it this way: No negative effects on the network due to influx of /.'ers if everyone thinks it sucks.
[13:32] <mikeeusaa> the network works?
[13:56] <sanity> hobx: the register article describes a forensic attack, which is what i respond to. doing a remote attack may indeed be possible in theory, but one must consider the practical difficulties of obtaining the public key of the node you wish to target, among other things. Yes, even a theoretical risk is dangerous, which is why we will do premix routing in 0.7 - but in practical terms it would be extremely difficult to achieve a remote attack like th
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[13:57] <sanity> implying that there is a realistic immediate danger that a remote attacker can get a list of the files you have downloaded would be alarmist in the extreme.
[14:04] <hobx> How do you premix in a darknet?
[14:07] * PrintStar (~Noneof@adsl-68-76-101-24.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #freenet
[14:10] <mikeeusaa> PrintStar, Death To women's Rights
[14:10] <mikeeusaa> yea that's right PrintStar
[14:10] <mikeeusaa> what you gunna do? Call NOW?
[14:10] <tessier_> Funny, the first post I see decrying Newsbyte as a troll is...sanity!
[14:10] <mikeeusaa> I'll cut all their heads off
[14:11] * PrintStar (~Noneof@adsl-68-76-101-24.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[14:11] <mikeeusaa> tessier_, know anywhere I can get a good and relativly low cost sword?
[14:11] <mikeeusaa> oohhh
[14:11] <mikeeusaa> guess PrintSar is going to mommy!
[14:13] <sanity> hobx: your neighbours tell you their neighbours, who tell you their neighbours
[14:13] <sanity> hobx: would be dangerous with untrusted links, but recall that you trust your neighbours
[14:13] <sanity> tessier_: the joys of a /. subscription ;-)
[14:13] <mikeeusaa> anything with star, angel, or xoxoxox might be a female
[14:14] <mikeeusaa> so all that has to happen is that CommunistChinaman agent get's friendly with some one
[14:14] <mikeeusaa> and they have the whole network
[14:14] <mikeeusaa> ... great
[14:14] * tessier_ had a subscription but I think it might be used up by now
[14:15] <tessier_> mikeeusaa: No idea. Sometimes there are gun shows in San Diego and I hear they had swords etc there too
[14:15] * mikeeusaa orders from I net
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[14:17] <spaetz_> jesus, is it the annoying newsbyte who submitted freenet to slashdot?
[14:18] <mikeeusaa> spaetz, sup
[14:19] <mikeeusaa> spaetz, newsbyte is pro-women's rights
[14:19] <spaetz_> very helpful his deeds
[14:21] <mikeeusaa> perhapse if he wasn't pro-women's rights he wouldn't be a bitch?
[14:22] <tessier_> ah, the wonderful cp debate that comes up whenever freenet is mentioned on /.
[14:23] <tessier_> Well, time to go smack my bitch around so she knows I still care for her. bbl
[14:24] <spaetz_> hehe
[14:24] <mikeeusaa> :D
[14:24] * mikeeusaa goes and eats food for today
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[15:22] * greycat is checking out the GNUnet FAQ. It looks like they've come quite a long way since I last looked at them. They have something like SSK@ now.
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[16:47] * Lollergator (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[16:52] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-196-203.clvdoh.adelphia.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:56] <Lollergator> hey.
[17:05] <Elly> hmm
[17:05] * Negi-Sensei (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[17:05] <Elly> I'm surprised there aren't ~100 people here
[17:05] <Elly> we got pseudo-slashdotted
[17:07] <NullAcht15> Elly: When? Where?
[17:08] <NullAcht15> Elly: Oh, I see it
[17:09] <mikeeusaa> hi
[17:10] <mikeeusaa> Elly, we got ./ dissed
[17:10] <Elly> yes, you did
[17:10] <Elly> http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/05/16/1212248.shtml?tid=156&tid=1 <---- oh snap
[17:10] <mikeeusaa> I hear N3wsByt3 is pro-women's rights
[17:11] <mikeeusaa> he also is rumored to be a mac fan-boi
[17:11] <mikeeusaa> rather fruity....
[17:11] <Elly> hmm
[17:11] <Elly> I can see why slashdot would react negatively to freenet
[17:12] <Elly> it just doesn't look very good on paper
[17:12] <Elly> I mean, yay, censorship-proof
[17:12] <mikeeusaa> /. == Apple good
[17:13] <mikeeusaa> even though apple is more litigous(SP) then M$
[17:13] <Elly> I'd say /. == linux good
[17:13] <mikeeusaa> especially against the common man
[17:13] <Elly> MS doesn't need to be litigious
[17:13] <mikeeusaa> ah, you're behind the times
[17:13] <Elly> MS can afford to buy out any serious competition
[17:13] <mikeeusaa> Apple sues people for saying apple smells like chilli
[17:13] <Lollergator> huh
[17:14] <mikeeusaa> they are the worst
[17:14] <Lollergator> apple sucks
[17:14] <Elly> where? show me that lawsuit
[17:14] <Elly> I haven't seen anything like that
[17:14] <mikeeusaa> /. == linux is pretty good
[17:14] <Lollergator> agh /. is gay
[17:14] <mikeeusaa> as is apple
[17:14] <Lollergator> people at /. love apple and linus torvalds
[17:15] <Lollergator> in the ass
[17:15] <Lollergator> all day every day
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> they don't much love linus anymore
[17:15] <Lollergator> oh really why not?
[17:15] <greycat> mikeeusaa: Lollergator: stop trolling, asshole. We know Lollergator and mikeeusaa are the same person.
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> because they have apple
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> ?
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> Lollergator, is not me
[17:15] <Elly> Yes, it is
[17:15] <Elly> heh
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> nope
[17:15] <mikeeusaa> how do you figure
[17:15] <Lollergator> ..
[17:16] <Lollergator> Dude
[17:16] <greycat> he's you without the .tor to hide behind.
[17:16] <Lollergator> I'm completely different
[17:16] <Lollergator> ..
[17:16] <Lollergator> How do you change the tor exitnode
[17:16] <Lollergator> When I run it
[17:16] <Lollergator> the exitnode is always harvard
[17:16] <Lollergator> I am so newb.
[17:16] <mikeeusaa> greycat, no he isnt
[17:16] <Elly> sigh.
[17:16] <Lollergator> is there any way to change the exitnode in tor?
[17:16] <mikeeusaa> r00t@debian:~$ host 24.190.58.202
[17:16] <mikeeusaa> 202.58.190.24.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer ool-18be3aca.dyn.optonline.net.
[17:17] <mikeeusaa> * [Lollergator] (NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net): Negi
[17:17] <Elly> congratulations, you can use the 'host' utility on a random IP address
[17:17] <Elly> next please
[17:17] <greycat> mikeeusa <~morph@ool-18be39f5.dyn.optonline.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #debian, 74d 17h 57m 19s ago, saying: '!ops abrotman stupid whore that dosn't contribute to OSS either... at all'.
[17:17] <mikeeusaa> r00t@debian:~$ host cat2.dynu.ca
[17:17] <mikeeusaa> cat2.dynu.ca has address 24.190.58.202
[17:18] <mikeeusaa> Elly go to https://cat2.dynu.ca
[17:18] <greycat> Lollergator [NEGRO@ool-4352b3cd.dyn.optonline.net]
[17:18] <mikeeusaa> greycat, diff IPs
[17:18] <greycat> yeah, and I'm *so* sure you have a static IP.
[17:19] <Elly> you can change an ool IP in 15 minutes
[17:19] <mikeeusaa> would you like me to come on with my Ip?
[17:19] <Elly> heh
[17:19] <mikeeusaa> right now?
[17:19] <greycat> no, I'd just like you to stop trolling.
[17:19] <Elly> That would indeed be nice
[17:19] * rah (~rah@fennel.arb.bash.sh) Quit ("The truth will set you free")
[17:19] <mikeeusaa> I'm not trolling
[17:19] <Elly> yes, you are
[17:19] <mikeeusaa> trolling assumes the person dosn't believe what they say
[17:19] <Elly> not necessarily
[17:19] * rah (~rah@fennel.arb.bash.sh) has joined #freenet
[17:19] <mikeeusaa> I am truely anti-women's rights
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> Elly, it implies it
[17:20] <Lollergator> ..
[17:20] <Lollergator> I swear
[17:20] <Lollergator> it's not him
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> anyway go to https://cat2.dynu.ca
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> that's me
[17:20] <Lollergator> hold on
[17:20] <Lollergator> http://cx.roflol.net
[17:20] <Elly> to quote urban dictionary
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> as you well know
[17:20] <greycat> don't side-track it into a meta-discussion of what trolling is. you're spouting off topic crap.
[17:20] <Elly> Being a prick on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.
[17:20] <Lollergator> http://cx.roflol.net
[17:20] <Lollergator> elly
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> Elly, I am anti-women's rights in real life too
[17:20] <Elly> 'Lollergator' aka sock
[17:20] <mikeeusaa> in my college etc
[17:21] <Elly> mikeeusa, I don't care what you are in real life, we don't want to hear it
[17:21] <Lollergator> YOU PEOPLE ARE ALL GAY
[17:21] <mikeeusaa> so
[17:21] <Lollergator> SHUT UP FAGGOT
[17:21] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[17:21] <Lollergator> I AM NOT SOME FAGGOT ON THE INTERNET
[17:21] <Elly> lmao
[17:21] <Elly> It just gets funnier
[17:21] * Lollergator is now known as laffo
[17:21] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[17:21] * laffo is now known as omz
[17:22] <omz> omz.
[17:22] <mikeeusaa> you mean omgz, no?
[17:22] <mikeeusaa> so omz why do you use http rather then ssl'd http?
[17:26] <Elly> I'm going to kill my project team with my bare hands
[17:27] <mikeeusaa> why?
[17:28] <Elly> they're incompetent
[17:28] <Elly> beyond reason
[17:28] <Elly> I've spent more time fixing their code than writing my own
[17:29] <mikeeusaa> are they women?
[17:29] * pithen (~ken@c-24-2-131-129.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[17:30] <Elly> public Image getTile(int floor) { int floor = 1; if (floor == 1) { return tile1; } if (floor == 2) { return tile2; } ... up through floor == 20
[17:30] <Elly> no
[17:30] <Elly> all guys
[17:30] <mikeeusaa> pithen, Death To women's Rights
[17:30] <mikeeusaa> Elly, are they pro women's rights guys?
[17:30] <greycat> as you can see, we have trolls here.
[17:30] <Elly> mike, not really
[17:30] <Elly> they're all reactionaries
[17:30] <Elly> it's really wierd
[17:30] <mikeeusaa> reactionaries?
[17:30] <Elly> yes
[17:31] <mikeeusaa> so if I say anything
[17:31] <mikeeusaa> they react with indignation?
[17:31] <Elly> That's not what reactionaries are, mike
[17:31] <Elly> sigh
[17:32] <mikeeusaa> From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.44 [gcide]:
[17:32] <mikeeusaa> Reactionary \Re*ac"tion*a*ry\, n.; pl. {Reactionaries}
[17:32] <mikeeusaa> (-r[i^]z).
[17:32] <mikeeusaa> One who favors reaction, or seeks to undo political progress
[17:32] <mikeeusaa> or revolution.
[17:32] <Elly> The second definition there
[17:32] <Elly> they seek to undo a lot of the political advances of the 20th century
[17:32] <greycat> don't forget, Congress (n.) Opposite of progress.
[17:33] <Elly> Hehe, greycat.
[17:33] <mikeeusaa> so would they get rid of women's rights
[17:33] <mikeeusaa> (or is that out of scope)
[17:34] <Elly> I have no idea
[17:34] <Elly> I have yet to bring it up
[17:34] <mikeeusaa> (being a social advance)
[17:34] <Elly> but the fact remains that they are vastly incompetent
[17:34] <mikeeusaa> if they were women I would have suggested making them slave wives
[17:34] <mikeeusaa> but the fact is they are not
[17:34] <Elly> I think I'm being subtly trolled again
[17:35] <greycat> "subtly"?
[17:35] <Elly> Alright, blatantly.
[17:36] <Elly> gah
[17:36] <Elly> this one kid is supposed to be writing the interface
[17:36] <Elly> so far he's made seven bitmaps for images of game objects
[17:36] <Elly> and that's IT
[17:36] <mikeeusaa> this is not a troll
[17:37] <mikeeusaa> notice how I always talk about women's rights
[17:37] <mikeeusaa> (anti)
[17:37] <Elly> that's just OCD
[17:37] <Elly> the trolling is the constant references to female slavery
[17:37] <mikeeusaa> if I was trolling I'd move on to other subjects as ye became numb to it
[17:37] <Elly> so you're just an especially dumb troll, I guess
[17:37] <mikeeusaa> wives are supposed to be the obedient servants of their husbands
[17:38] <Elly> Uh-huh. Whatever.
[17:38] <mikeeusaa> dumb... yet I said this "mikeeusaa if I was trolling I'd move on to other subjects as ye became numb to it"
[17:38] <mikeeusaa> surely a dumb troll would never realise such?
[17:38] <Elly> So you've read the Flamer's Bible
[17:38] <Elly> big deal
[17:38] <mikeeusaa> I read the real Bible
[17:39] <mikeeusaa> it's rather nice
[17:39] <greycat> oh goody, we get to have a religious trolling now.
[17:39] <Elly> That explains a lot
[17:39] <mikeeusaa> women are to be slaves to husband
[17:39] <mikeeusaa> husband can have many wives
[17:39] <greycat> where are all those extra women supposed to come from?
[17:39] <Elly> So you're a mormon, then?
[17:39] <mikeeusaa> nope
[17:40] <Elly> I'm fairly sure the bible sharply discourages polygamy
[17:40] <mikeeusaa> then you've not read it at all
[17:40] <mikeeusaa> you just listen to what others tell you
[17:40] <mikeeusaa> such blind faith is... disturbing
[17:40] * Elly shrugs
[17:41] <Elly> I know...blind faith in a book written by monks
[17:41] <Elly> very disturbing
[17:42] <mikeeusaa> if someone told you the earth was flat... and you didn't perticuarlly give a damn weather it was or was not... would you be inclined to believe them?
[17:42] <greycat> depends on who said it.
[17:42] <mikeeusaa> belief in a book that supports what you want... and many others also believe never having read it... giving you a allready-been-made audiance
[17:42] <Elly> No, because it's bullshit
[17:42] <greycat> also depends on what else I'd already been told, and/or seen for myself.
[17:42] <Elly> I've SEEN that it's not flat
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> Elly, ah so you've "read the book" then
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> on earth being not flat,
[17:43] <Elly> No
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> now if you hadn't
[17:43] <Elly> I've been in an aircraft at high altitude
[17:43] <Elly> and looked out the window
[17:43] <greycat> mikeeusaa: you can learn this without a book. Go stand on a beach and watch a ship.
[17:43] <Elly> and seen the curvature of the earth
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> greycat, Elly notice the quotes
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa Elly, ah so you've "read the book" then
[17:43] <Elly> what quotes?
[17:43] <mikeeusaa> it is an allusion
[17:44] <greycat> mikeeusaa: what is your point? you've lost me.
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa mikeeusaa Elly, ah so you've "read the book" then
[17:44] <Elly> No, it's not
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> it is so
[17:44] <Elly> I have not read 'the book'
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> Elly I'm fairly sure the bible sharply discourages polygamy
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa then you've not read it at all
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa you just listen to what others tell you
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa such blind faith is... disturbing
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> * Elly shrugs
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> Elly I know...blind faith in a book written by monks
[17:44] <Elly> There is a difference between reading about something and seeing it
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> Elly very disturbing
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa if someone told you the earth was flat... and you didn't perticuarlly give a damn weather it was or was not... would you be inclined to believe them?
[17:44] <mikeeusaa>
[17:44] <mikeeusaa> damn... you're thick
[17:44] <greycat> don't just repeat what you wrote earlier
[17:45] <Elly> or you're just bad at explaining naturally inarticulate points
[17:45] <mikeeusaa> greycat, do you see the allusion?
[17:45] <greycat> no, because one is an article of faith, and the other is the result of direct observation of the natural universe
[17:45] <mikeeusaa> Elly, nm, can't be subtle at all... not even slightly so
[17:45] <Elly> direct observation ne faith
[17:45] <Elly> as I said
[17:46] <Elly> if some guy were to come up to me and say "Woah, I just went up in a plane and I saw that the earth is a giant flat disk"
[17:46] <mikeeusaa> greycat, one says how girls are supposed to be servants for their husbands
[17:46] <Elly> I'd think he were crazy
[17:46] <mikeeusaa> now in the past this happened
[17:46] <Elly> if I went up into the air and saw such a thing myself
[17:46] <Elly> I'd think either a) I was crazy or b) It was so
[17:46] <mikeeusaa> so it's not just mysticism... you can have society set up in such a way
[17:46] <Elly> Not a good one
[17:47] <greycat> that doesn't make it a *good* way.
[17:47] <mikeeusaa> perhapse you don't understand why I like the Bible
[17:47] <mikeeusaa> it does for me
[17:47] <greycat> but it doesn't make it a good way for the women, and guess what? they outnumber you.
[17:47] <Elly> you can have a society which is based on regularly beating half of the members
[17:47] <mikeeusaa> what? you think I care what people who are pro-women's rights think is good?
[17:47] <Elly> but that doesn't mean it's good
[17:47] <mikeeusaa> You think I care what good is?
[17:47] <Elly> What other possible defense is there for your position?
[17:48] <mikeeusaa> You think I care what good is?
[17:48] <Elly> See what I just said
[17:48] <Elly> you previously tried to justify yourself by saying that it was 'right'
[17:48] <mikeeusaa> I want women to be slaves to their husbands
[17:48] <Elly> and now you're claiming not to care about that
[17:48] <greycat> why?
[17:48] <Elly> yes, why?
[17:48] <mikeeusaa> Elly: onion peel
[17:48] <Elly> ?
[17:48] <mikeeusaa> because it is sutable to me :)
[17:49] <Elly> so because it benefits you, it should be extended to the rest of society?
[17:49] <mikeeusaa> yes
[17:49] <mikeeusaa> ofcourse
[17:49] <Elly> I think I should assume immediate dictatorship of planet earth then
[17:49] <Elly> As it would clearly benefit me quite a lot
[17:49] <mikeeusaa> when the middle east is gone.. perhaps
[17:50] <Elly> Hmm, okay
[17:50] <mikeeusaa> but as it is now, there are places where you can aquire proper females today
[17:50] <Elly> I thought you were crazy - now I think you're crazy and narcissistic
[17:50] <mikeeusaa> but for how long?
[17:50] <mikeeusaa> and yes, I am right.
[17:51] <Elly> Right about what?
[17:51] <mikeeusaa> women's rights
[17:52] <Elly> Prove it.
[17:52] <mikeeusaa> that would mean there is a measure of rightness
[17:52] <Elly> No, it wouldn't
[17:52] <Elly> Justify yourself.
[17:52] <mikeeusaa> which you would probably say... is how many people agree with me, no?
[17:52] <Elly> Few people agree with you
[17:53] <Elly> But no, that is not what I'd say
[17:53] <Elly> rightness is a function of proveability
[17:53] <mikeeusaa> why is anti-women's rights right
[17:53] <Elly> as I said, prove it.
[17:53] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[17:54] <mikeeusaa> anti-women's rights is right because it procures a greater number of sweet obedient females to be wives for the enjoyment of men
[17:54] <Elly> Does it not occur to you that a lot of men enjoy having equal relationships with women?
[17:55] <mikeeusaa> it occurs to me that alot of men do not enjoy having equal relationships with women aswell
[17:55] <mikeeusaa> so the men that wish to be equals... so be it
[17:55] <mikeeusaa> and the men that wish to be vastly superior
[17:55] <Elly> Besides, the majority of women do not enjoy such relationships
[17:55] <mikeeusaa> they must have their cake aswell
[17:55] <Elly> and they are of equal value
[17:55] <mikeeusaa> where in did I ever give a damn about what women enjoy or want?
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> *wherein
[17:56] <Elly> You kind of have to
[17:56] <Elly> they're 51% of the population
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> I do not
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa that would mean there is a measure of rightness
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> mikeeusaa which you would probably say... is how many people agree with me, no?
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> Elly No, it wouldn't
[17:56] <mikeeusaa>
[17:56] <Elly> [16:54] Elly: rightness is a function of proveability
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> so a i predicted
[17:56] <Elly> Your case so far: It would make men happy.
[17:56] <mikeeusaa> you fall back on the will of the majority
[17:56] <Elly> No proof there. That statement is not even provably true
[17:57] <gregh> I know freenet is about free speech and all, but when did #freenet become about bigotry?
[17:57] <Elly> No, I don't. I point out that your scheme is unfeasible.
[17:57] <mikeeusaa> as a proof of right
[17:57] <Elly> gregh: mike gets his jollies trolling around here
[17:57] <mikeeusaa> you do not prove anything
[17:57] <gregh> so don't feed him
[17:57] <mikeeusaa> you say women are 51%
[17:57] <Elly> mike: I don't have to. The burden of proof falls on the one making the claim.
[17:57] <mikeeusaa> and I wonder how that is relevant?
[17:57] <Elly> It's relevant because it makes your plan unfeasible
[17:57] <Elly> heh
[17:57] <mikeeusaa> how so?
[17:58] <mikeeusaa> and how does it make my plan... un-right?
[17:58] <Elly> Opressing 51% of the world's population doesn't sound like it would be easy or cheap
[17:58] <Elly> You have yet to prove anything.
[17:58] <mikeeusaa> if you believe that... I have a gulag to sell you
[17:58] <Elly> You've made a statement -- with no evidence -- that most men would enjoy such a thing
[17:58] <Elly> which is invalid in terms of proof anyway
[17:58] <Elly> gregh: But it's so fun
[17:58] <mikeeusaa> I would enjoy it.
[17:59] <mikeeusaa> so where is the problem?
[17:59] <Elly> There's that "I" again.
[17:59] <mikeeusaa> yep :)
[17:59] <mikeeusaa> I propose that we do not agree with each other.
[17:59] <Elly> I already know that
[17:59] <mikeeusaa> so that is that
[18:00] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's RIghts
[18:00] <Elly> * Added mikeeusaa!*@* to ignore list
[18:00] <mikeeusaa> ah, I see you fail then :)
[18:01] <mikeeusaa> fag
[18:01] <mikeeusaa> but you'll be duely nutured by your equal wife
[18:02] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-255-176.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[18:02] <Elly> hmm, anyone know where toad_ is?
[18:02] <mikeeusaa> an now he, after failing, want's to ban me
[18:02] <mikeeusaa> how faggly
[18:02] <mikeeusaa> crying to mommy
[18:03] <Elly> actually someone else can probably answer this
[18:03] <Elly> who's going to be on the initial 0.7 darknet if/when it appears?
[18:12] <omz> hihi
[18:12] <omz> anyway
[18:12] <omz> sorry about earlier
[18:12] <omz> I really wanted to know how to get freenet to work
[18:12] <omz> but I am a failure.
[18:12] * omz is now known as Lollergator
[18:13] * mikeeusaa (~rvm@2071cdaa6e5796d0.session.tor) has left #freenet
[18:13] <Lollergator> also
[18:13] <Lollergator> how do you access freenode through tor?
[18:14] <Lollergator> does it have root tor access or something crazy like that?
[18:14] <Elly> nope
[18:14] <Lollergator> oh
[18:14] <Elly> well hmm
[18:14] <Lollergator> 'splane?
[18:14] <Elly> maybe freenode groks tor routing or something
[18:14] <Elly> but uhh
[18:14] <Lollergator> ah
[18:14] <Elly> just set up a TOR tunnel to freenode
[18:14] <Elly> then connect locally
[18:14] <Elly> I guess
[18:14] <Lollergator> k
[18:14] <Elly> I'm not sure
[18:14] <Lollergator> well then
[18:14] <Lollergator> how about you tell me what I'm doing wrong
[18:14] <Lollergator> cause you're all down with that stuff
[18:15] <Lollergator> I left freenet to integrate
[18:15] <Lollergator> for 2 days
[18:15] <Lollergator> but I still can't get any content
[18:15] <Lollergator> when I forward the ports
[18:15] <Elly> uhh
[18:15] <Elly> got any outbound connections?
[18:15] <Lollergator> ..
[18:15] <Lollergator> nope.
[18:15] <Lollergator> I set up my nat
[18:15] <Lollergator> forward port 24130 to whatever on my local machine
[18:15] <Lollergator> err
[18:15] <Lollergator> you know
[18:15] <Elly> Are you forwarding the right ports?
[18:15] <Lollergator> same port
[18:16] <Lollergator> well
[18:16] <Lollergator> which ports do I need to?
[18:16] <Elly> is 24130 the one in your freenet.[ini|conf]?
[18:16] <Lollergator> uh
[18:16] <Elly> that's the only one
[18:16] <Lollergator> yeah
[18:16] <Lollergator> I believe so
[18:16] <Lollergator> lemme check
[18:17] <Lollergator> # The port to listen for incoming FNP (Freenet Node Protocol) connections on.
[18:17] <Lollergator> listenPort=24130
[18:17] <Lollergator> then on my router
[18:17] <Lollergator> I have
[18:17] <Lollergator> enabled|portforwarding|192.168.0.1|24130|24130
[18:17] <Lollergator> err
[18:17] <Elly> 24130->freenetbox:24130?
[18:17] <Lollergator> 192.168.0.100
[18:17] <Lollergator> huh
[18:18] <Lollergator> freenetbox:24130?
[18:18] <Elly> and 192.168.1.100 is your freenet node?
[18:18] <Lollergator> yes.
[18:18] <Lollergator> err
[18:18] <Lollergator> .0.100
[18:18] <Lollergator> d-link.
[18:18] * Elly checks
[18:19] <Elly> Are you using Windows XP SP2?
[18:19] <Lollergator> nop.e
[18:19] <Elly> what OS?
[18:19] <Lollergator> all firewalls is awf
[18:19] <Lollergator> xpsp1
[18:19] * Elly hmms
[18:19] <Lollergator> do I need sp2?
[18:19] <Elly> nope
[18:19] <Lollergator> hmm
[18:19] <Elly> you should only need to forward your listen port to your box
[18:19] <Elly> have you tried actually using freenet yet?
[18:19] <Lollergator> hmm
[18:19] <Lollergator> yes.
[18:19] <Lollergator> I get to the local portal
[18:20] <Lollergator> but when I try to use a thingy
[18:20] <Lollergator> it's like
[18:20] <Lollergator> KEY NOT FOUND FAGGOT
[18:20] <Elly> Could you stop with that please?
[18:20] <Lollergator> what?
[18:20] <Elly> Now, anyway,
[18:20] <Elly> how many inbound connections do you have open?
[18:20] <Lollergator> some.
[18:20] <Elly> how many?
[18:20] <Lollergator> how do I check?
[18:21] <Elly> http://localhost:8888/servlet/nodeinfo/networking/ocm
[18:22] <Lollergator> 2
[18:22] <Lollergator> 2 connexions
[18:22] <Elly> That is quite possibly why
[18:22] <Lollergator> how do I fix this craziness
[18:22] <Elly> what're your min/maxes for bandwidth and connections set to in freenet.ini?
[18:22] <Lollergator> 0
[18:22] <Lollergator> is that not unlimited?>
[18:22] <Lollergator> cause mebbe that is the problem
[18:22] <Elly> no, 0 is unlimited
[18:23] <Lollergator> well, I reinstalled
[18:23] <Lollergator> does that make me
[18:23] <Lollergator> unintegrated
[18:23] <Elly> What's your node uptime according to http://localhost:8888/servlet/nodeinfo/performance/general?
[18:24] <Lollergator> Mon May 16 17:23:52 EDT 2005
[18:24] <Lollergator> ?
[18:24] <Lollergator> I don't see it
[18:24] <Lollergator> oh.
[18:24] <Elly> What is it?
[18:24] <Lollergator> 3min
[18:24] <Lollergator> for some reason
[18:25] <Lollergator> this crazy stuff is working again
[18:25] <Elly> Your node has restarted for some reason
[18:25] <Elly> on its own
[18:25] <Lollergator> I just loaded an image
[18:25] <Lollergator> nono
[18:25] <Lollergator> I just restarted it
[18:25] <Elly> oh
[18:25] <Elly> I'd venture that most nodes have TFE in their caches
[18:25] <Elly> so it's easy to get
[18:25] <Lollergator> TFE?
[18:26] <Lollergator> oh
[18:26] <Elly> The Freedom Engime
[18:26] <Elly> *Engine
[18:26] <Lollergator> for some reason
[18:26] <Lollergator> images load in opera
[18:26] <Lollergator> but firefox keeps calling me the gay kid
[18:26] <Lollergator> and I opened another connection
[18:26] <Elly> dude please
[18:26] <Elly> stop with the 'gay' thing
[18:26] <gregh> by default, firefox doesn't open very many connections to the server
[18:26] <Lollergator> ..
[18:26] <Lollergator> I set it high
[18:27] <Lollergator> like
[18:27] <Lollergator> 256
[18:27] <Lollergator> and 128
[18:27] <Lollergator> but opera is like
[18:27] <Lollergator> YOU ARE SO COOL
[18:27] <Lollergator> but I'm using firefox just for freenet
[18:27] <gregh> what is "it" that you set high?
[18:27] <gregh> there are four related firefox settings
[18:27] <Lollergator> uhh
[18:27] <Lollergator> http.max.server.connections
[18:27] <Lollergator> is like
[18:27] <Lollergator> 128 or something
[18:28] <gregh> and max-connections-per-server?
[18:28] <Lollergator> http.max.connections is like 256
[18:28] <Lollergator> yeah
[18:28] <Lollergator> per server is 128
[18:28] <Lollergator> and all connections
[18:28] <Lollergator> is 256
[18:28] <Lollergator> pipelining is enabled
[18:28] <Lollergator> proxying is all cool
[18:28] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d5152629C.access.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:29] <Lollergator> hmm
[18:30] <Lollergator> maxconn is 256, max conn per server is 128, persistents are 128 and 64 respectively piplining =100 and proxypipelining is on
[18:31] <Elly> You'll have to excuse my friend, he's not null-terminated.
[18:33] <Elly> man, the first 24 hours of running a node SUCK
[18:33] <Elly> three connections and I can get TFE
[18:41] * linyos (~asdfasdf@adsl-68-20-15-138.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net) has joined #freenet
[18:42] <linyos> that newsbyte is really something...
[18:42] <Elly> you're telling us
[18:44] <Lollergator> hmm
[18:44] <Lollergator> firefox fails at this
[18:44] <Lollergator> is it possible firefox is borked?
[18:45] <gregh> I'm using firefox successfully with freenet. Are you using the latest firefox?
[18:45] <Lollergator> uhh
[18:45] <Lollergator> 104?
[18:47] <Lollergator> how much bw will freenet suck up?
[18:48] <linyos> there has got to be some way to change the nature of the internet in order to make it politically unacceptable, at least for many governments, to replace it with a locked-down technology.... i am going to solve this if it kills me.
[18:49] <Lollergator> Govt doesn't lock the internet, they just watch it.
[18:49] <Lollergator> the nature of the internet doesn't include anonymity
[18:49] <linyos> Lollergator: freenet will eat all the bandwidth you let it.
[18:49] <Lollergator> k
[18:50] <Lollergator> I gave it 10gb of cachespace is that enough
[18:50] <Lollergator> and how do I see how much it's transfering as we sp33k
[18:50] <linyos> the bigger the better.
[18:50] <Lollergator> how about the kuestion I just asked
[18:51] <Lollergator> have there been any attempts to run bittorrent through freenet yet?
[18:51] <linyos> the status page should show that i think.
[18:51] <linyos> at localhost:whateveritis
[18:51] <Lollergator> ..
[18:51] * pithen (~ken@c-24-2-131-129.hsd1.ct.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[18:51] <Lollergator> right
[18:51] <Lollergator> which one
[18:51] <linyos> somebody here will know
[18:52] <linyos> otherwise just use your favorite traffic monitor to keep track.
[18:52] <Lollergator> I don't want to install one
[18:53] <linyos> but really you should run all your packets through a traffic shaper anyway.
[18:53] <Lollergator> like what?
[18:53] <linyos> linux has the "tc" utility, you can use it to classify and prioritize, throttle ip traffic.
[18:54] <Lollergator> oh so like
[18:54] <Lollergator> netlimiter?
[18:54] <Lollergator> for windows
[18:54] <linyos> i guess.
[18:54] <linyos> i only know how linux does it.
[18:54] <Lollergator> cause I'm not all "up in it" with the linsux
[18:55] <linyos> i hear it can steal the mp3s out of other people's stereos.
[18:55] <Lollergator> what? linsux?
[18:55] <Lollergator> LUNIX
[18:56] <Elly> Linux is cool.
[18:56] <linyos> yeah. but anyway, traffic shaping is the only way to keep your latency from going to hell.
[18:56] <linyos> it's a necessity.
[18:57] <Elly> Mmmm. tcpwrappers.
[18:57] <Lollergator> what should I shape my traffic as?
[18:57] <Lollergator> a bunny?
[18:57] <Lollergator> a lollergator?
[18:57] <Lollergator> (what percentages)
[18:57] <Lollergator> and can't you just do it through the freenet intorfacesdsafsd
[18:57] <linyos> windows will help you fully express your artistic potential in every way.
[18:58] <Elly> by 'artistic potential' he means love of pain
[18:58] <linyos> and play the tuba while you hold worldwide meetings.
[18:58] <Lollergator> I was thinking of trying linux but then I was like "I DONT FEEL LIKE FINDING A GOOD DISTRO CAUSE EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION AND IS GAY"
[18:59] <gregh> perhaps you should try a few distros and form your own opinion
[18:59] <linyos> Lollergator: there are a lot of fancy ways to shape traffic. for something easy, just limit traffic on the freenet port to like 80% of your connection's speed.
[18:59] <Elly> Heaven forbid! An educated opinion!
[19:00] <Lollergator> yeah
[19:00] <Lollergator> but I don't feel like bothering to install so many distros
[19:00] <Lollergator> I don't have that kind of time
[19:00] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@66.151.22.70) has left #freenet
[19:00] <gregh> save yourself some time and install freebsd then
[19:00] <gregh> :)
[19:00] <Elly> lol
[19:00] <Elly> I like gentoo personally
[19:00] <Elly> neither of those two are user-friendly
[19:00] <Lollergator> and I don't want to be sitting there one day with xwindows or something and then it's like oshit you need GNOME
[19:01] <Lollergator> I can configure inis and shit
[19:01] <Lollergator> and rcs
[19:01] <Lollergator> not that hard
[19:01] <Elly> Gnome and X are not the same thing
[19:01] <Lollergator> but I want something that at least mounts cds by default
[19:01] <Elly> mine does that
[19:01] <Lollergator> oh, explain
[19:01] <gregh> get an apple. :)
[19:01] <Lollergator> freebsd doesn't
[19:01] <Lollergator> ..
[19:01] <Lollergator> apple sucks, faggot
[19:01] <gregh> heh
[19:01] <gregh> hot button there
[19:01] <Lollergator> apple is worse than windows
[19:01] <linyos> jesus, somebody needs a new natalie portman poster to boost their morale.
[19:01] <Elly> apples are easier to use than either gentoo or freebsd, that's for sure
[19:02] <Elly> $ cat /etc/fstab | grep cdrom
[19:02] <Elly> #/dev/cdroms/cdrom0 /mnt/cdrom iso9660 auto,ro 0 0
[19:02] <Lollergator> ....
[19:02] <Lollergator> to mount a cd
[19:02] <Lollergator> you have to type all that in
[19:02] <Lollergator> pathetic
[19:02] <Elly> no
[19:02] <Elly> that's in my fstab file
[19:02] <Lollergator> oh.
[19:02] <Elly> cdroms are automounted when I put them in
[19:02] <Lollergator> yey.
[19:02] <Lollergator> freebsd doesn't do it by default
[19:02] <Elly> You can make it if you want
[19:02] <Elly> by editing /etc/fstab
[19:02] <Elly> It's not even difficult
[19:03] <Lollergator> I know
[19:03] <Lollergator> it's a pain in the ass though
[19:03] <Lollergator> it really shows how far behind OpenSource is getting in the way of client OSes
[19:03] <gregh> is that more or less of a pain in the ass than not being able to do something at all because windows doesn't support it?
[19:03] <Lollergator> ..
[19:03] <Elly> heh
[19:03] <Lollergator> windows supports like everything
[19:03] <Elly> no it doesn't
[19:03] <Elly> not by a longshot
[19:03] <Lollergator> like what?
[19:04] <Lollergator> Linux is way better for servers, I agree
[19:04] <Elly> let's use this example and say you don't want it to mount cdroms when you insert them
[19:04] <Lollergator> .......
[19:04] <Elly> because you're making copies or something
[19:04] <linyos> this whole discussion should move to #freenet-adequacy.org or something.
[19:04] <Elly> how would you configure that on windows?
[19:04] <Lollergator> registry
[19:04] <Elly> lol, yes, it should actually
[19:04] <Lollergator> set automount off.
[19:04] <Elly> Lollergator: explain
[19:04] <Lollergator> I forgot the key
[19:04] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-084-059-133-232.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[19:04] <Lollergator> but you can turn automount off
[19:04] <Lollergator> it's in one of the technet articles
[19:04] <Lollergator> which google will bring up
[19:04] <Elly> so it's a choice between editing a commented config file
[19:05] <Elly> and editing the uncommented registry
[19:05] <Lollergator> albeit poorly commented
[19:05] <Elly> not at all
[19:05] <Elly> # noatime turns off atimes for increased performance (atimes normally aren't
[19:05] <Elly> # needed; notail increases performance of ReiserFS (at the expense of storage
[19:05] <Elly> # efficiency). It's safe to drop the noatime options if you want and to
[19:05] <Elly> # switch between notail and tail freely.
[19:05] <Elly> # <fs> <mountpoint> <type> <opts> <dump/pass>
[19:05] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-082-082-146-045.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[19:05] <Elly> one block of comments
[19:05] <Lollergator> is it commented better than litestep?
[19:05] <Elly> LiteStep is not an OS
[19:05] <Lollergator> a shell, I know
[19:06] <Lollergator> is it commented better than LS though
[19:06] <Elly> it's better-documented
[19:06] <Elly> not better-commented
[19:06] <Elly> but LS is not part of windows either
[19:06] <Lollergator> ..
[19:06] <Lollergator> but the thing is
[19:06] <Lollergator> noatime
[19:06] <Lollergator> wtf is atime
[19:06] * Elly shrugs
[19:06] <Elly> I don't need to know, the comment tells me what it does
[19:06] <Lollergator> just curious
[19:06] <Lollergator> what is it
[19:07] <Elly> oh
[19:07] <gregh> http://www.google.com/search?q=atime has it on the first page.
[19:07] <Elly> it disables writing of access times to files for file reads
[19:07] <Lollergator> oh
[19:07] <Lollergator> noaccesstime
[19:07] <Elly> yes
[19:07] * Elly shrugs
[19:08] <Elly> I still stand by my gentoo recommendation
[19:08] <Lollergator> do they have books that explain every ini?
[19:08] <Elly> Nah, webpages
[19:08] <Elly> cheaper and quicker to get to
[19:08] <Elly> they aren't inis, they are just config files
[19:08] <Lollergator> k
[19:09] <Elly> for example
[19:09] <Lollergator> did anyone ever think of making a config gui?
[19:09] <Elly> if I want to know about /etc/fstab, man fstab
[19:09] <Lollergator> that would be pretty cool
[19:09] <Elly> yeah, practically every distro has one
[19:09] <Lollergator> well
[19:09] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-082-082-146-045.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[19:09] <Elly> mandrake and redhat both have control centers
[19:09] <Elly> gentoo has a bunch of smaller tools
[19:09] <Lollergator> hmm
[19:09] <Elly> both for X config and system config
[19:09] <Lollergator> how is the new novell linux that people are coming all over
[19:10] <Elly> no idea
[19:10] <Lollergator> (spilling their seed)
[19:10] <Elly> it has something to do with suse
[19:10] <Lollergator> ah
[19:10] <Lollergator> a superset of suse?
[19:10] <Elly> quite possibly
[19:10] <Lollergator> new closed-source code?
[19:10] <Lollergator> or is it a derivative work
[19:10] <Elly> probably all open-source
[19:10] <Lollergator> why would you buy it then
[19:10] <Elly> check it out, www.google.com/search?q=novell+linux
[19:10] <Lollergator> cause they sell it for lots of moneys
[19:10] <Elly> the same reason people buy redhat
[19:11] <Elly> for a) the support and b) the certification
[19:11] <Elly> when you buy red hat, you get support, and you get a guarantee that it's going to work in a given environment
[19:11] <Elly> and with certain software
[19:11] <Elly> you know that RHEL will work with Oracle/MySQL/Postgre because they're certified
[19:11] <Elly> businesses like that so they pay
[19:11] <Lollergator> boo-urns on buying thigns
[19:11] <Elly> home users don't care so they download
[19:11] <Lollergator> *things
[19:11] <Lollergator> Support is sux
[19:12] <Lollergator> I'd rather go to the official LINUX CHATROOM THAT's LIKE SUP
[19:12] <Elly> If you're a corporation
[19:12] <Elly> you NEED to have a support agreement
[19:12] <Elly> otherwise if stuff goes offline and you can't fix it you lose
[19:12] <Lollergator> k
[19:12] <Lollergator> what is xwindows and gnome and all that jazz
[19:12] <Elly> X Windows is a GUI system
[19:12] <linyos> are competent unix admins hard to find these days?
[19:12] <Elly> Gnome is a window manager
[19:12] <Elly> linyos, no idea
[19:13] <linyos> you'd think there would be a surplus of them
[19:13] <Elly> Gnome is a window manager for X
[19:13] <Elly> (written to X)
[19:13] <Lollergator> ah
[19:13] <Lollergator> what is the alt to x?
[19:13] <Elly> Is there even one?
[19:13] <Elly> Sun had a proprietary one once
[19:13] <gregh> there are two alternatives to x - windows and osx. :)
[19:14] <Lollergator> OSX SUX MORE THAN WINDOWS
[19:14] <Elly> hehe
[19:14] <Elly> there's one called Y
[19:14] <Elly> XOrg and XFree are two free implementations of the X protocol, or you can use Y
[19:14] <Elly> or you can use OSX if you like Darwin ;)
[19:15] <Lollergator> OSX SUCKS
[19:15] <Elly> Why do you say?
[19:15] <Lollergator> seeing as how I've used a lot of G5s
[19:16] <Lollergator> at school
[19:16] <Lollergator> top of the line
[19:16] <Lollergator> I can say
[19:16] <Lollergator> they're shit
[19:16] <gregh> ...in no less than five lines...
[19:16] <Elly> We have G4s in the AV lab that run OSX fine
[19:16] <Lollergator> We have G5s that run OSX but the OS is shitty
[19:16] <Lollergator> It crashes more than my xp box
[19:16] <Lollergator> (not more than my 98 box)
[19:16] <Elly> what on earth are you talking about
[19:16] <Lollergator> ..
[19:16] <Elly> OSX never crashes unless you use crappy hardware
[19:16] <Lollergator> OSX crashes all the time
[19:17] <Lollergator> wait wait
[19:17] <Lollergator> lemme explain
[19:17] <Elly> are you using cheap ram or what?
[19:17] <Lollergator> osx doesn't crash
[19:17] <Lollergator> it goes really slow
[19:17] <Lollergator> to the point of freezing
[19:17] <Lollergator> for a few minutes
[19:17] <Lollergator> then goes back to normal
[19:17] <Elly> then those are some fucked-up G5s
[19:17] <Lollergator> nono
[19:17] <Lollergator> it's the OS
[19:17] <Elly> nah, it's not
[19:17] <Lollergator> also, having a one button mouse is the dumbest thing ever
[19:18] <Elly> Why do you say?
[19:18] <Lollergator> ..
[19:18] <Lollergator> Use a two-button mouse for a week
[19:18] <Elly> I do use a two-button mouse
[19:18] <linyos> my ram is so cheap it plays the fiddle like rothschild
[19:18] <Elly> but why don't you use a five-button mouse?
[19:18] <linyos> dances a little jig.
[19:18] <Lollergator> ..
[19:18] <Elly> they were originally called X-Mice
[19:18] <Lollergator> I do use a 5button
[19:18] <Lollergator> actually
[19:18] <Lollergator> 6button
[19:18] <Elly> you can be much more productive with them
[19:18] <Lollergator> but regardless
[19:19] <Lollergator> I mean, why not have a good mouse on a mac
[19:19] <Elly> So what's wrong with a one-button mouse, other than that you disagree with it as an interface decision
[19:19] <Lollergator> ..
[19:19] <Elly> you can get two-button mice if you like
[19:19] <Elly> apple sells them
[19:19] <Lollergator> ..
[19:19] <Lollergator> Because I don't want to have to pay for overpriced hardware/software
[19:19] <Lollergator> and then have to replace it with shit I want
[19:21] <Elly> anyway
[19:21] <Elly> enough of this adequacy-style stuff
[19:21] <Elly> does anyone know how we're choosing initial participants for the darknet 0.7?
[19:21] <Lollergator> anyway, if I want a really sexy OS, I'll switch to linux
[19:21] <Lollergator> and learn to program to make it sexier
[19:21] <Lollergator> cause that's like the only thing you can do on linux
[19:22] <Lollergator> =)
[19:22] <Lollergator> jkjk
[19:22] <Lollergator> but linux is much more programming conducive
[19:22] <gregh> that's an odd assertion to make
[19:23] <Lollergator> it's true
[19:23] <Lollergator> but seeya bye
[19:24] <linyos> where does the trusted-links-only thing fit in logically between the network proper and the onion premixing?
[19:25] <linyos> i haven't studied the rambling proposals lately..
[19:26] * linyos looks up those messages again.
[19:30] <linyos> ok, now i read the rationale.
[19:30] <linyos> if you connect to a hostile node they will know you exist.
[19:31] <linyos> but they can know that just by monitoring IP traffic, it is not hard. so there is little point.
[19:31] <linyos> it's like cutting off the hydra's head.
[19:31] <Elly> Uhh no
[19:31] <Elly> freenet traffic looks like HTTPS traffic
[19:31] <Elly> =)
[19:32] <Elly> you can't tell what cipher is in use without knowing the key
[19:32] <linyos> it has different statistical patterns
[19:32] <linyos> very easy to detect in real life.
[19:32] <Elly> like what?
[19:32] <linyos> like, the statistical distribution of the message frequency
[19:32] <linyos> and the fixed set of destinations
[19:32] <linyos> delineating a graph
[19:33] <linyos> and the connection lifetimes
[19:33] <linyos> the internet leaks so much information, it is impossible to conceal anything substantial.
[19:35] <linyos> if you don't think they would have the whole network mapped out in the war room under the mountain, you are just being delusionally optimistic.
[19:35] <linyos> like the hydra fighting guy.
[19:37] <linyos> anyway, how can you design a sneakernet protocol?
[19:37] <linyos> like, say each person has five friends with whom he exchanges DVDs on a weekly basis.
[19:37] <Elly> how can you design it?
[19:38] <linyos> how do you put a content-addressable document retrieval system on top of that.
[19:38] <Elly> Well
[19:38] <Elly> I don't know
[19:38] <Elly> for human interaction it'd be horifically slow
[19:38] <Elly> what I'd do is if I want some document A
[19:39] <Elly> I say to all 5 people 'Hey, can you give A to me?'
[19:39] * Rom|Away (Romster@203.129.156.163) has joined #freenet
[19:39] <linyos> worst come to worst, it would be a nice way to get your hands on banned documents. but it has to resist attack.
[19:39] <Elly> and they say to everyone they know 'Hey, can you give A to me?'
[19:39] <Elly> and so on until one of them gets A
[19:39] <Elly> at which point it is returned back along the same path
[19:39] <Elly> nobody in that path knows who it is for or where it originated
[19:40] <Elly> that's the simplest way
[19:41] <Elly> there are other, more complex ways
[19:41] <linyos> it's the attack resistance i'm most interested in.
[19:41] <linyos> (of course simply how to route and cache documents is also interesting)
[19:41] <linyos> but what keeps somebody from flooding the network with requests and making it useless?
[19:42] <linyos> lots of stuff to consider.
[19:42] <Elly> well
[19:42] <Elly> humans can filter shit like that =)
[19:42] <Elly> with computers it's harder
[19:42] <Elly> a human can easily tell a bogus request from a real one
[19:42] <Elly> If someone asks for a document entitled 'jasuh4ahuwae', they're probably faking
[19:44] <linyos> hmm
[19:44] <Elly> also, if the network is 'trusted'
[19:44] <linyos> is there a way to impost a per-week request limit on each participant?
[19:44] <Elly> then every person in it can be trusted not to flood it
[19:44] <Elly> no
[19:44] <Elly> because that would entail linking requests with participants
[19:45] <Elly> which is bad for anonymity
[19:45] <linyos> is there a way around that
[19:45] <linyos> like, say i'm bob, and joe connects to me on the graph
[19:45] <linyos> if i know that joe is connected to five people besides me, and each of those five people make one request per week
[19:46] <linyos> and joe forwards those requests to me
[19:46] <linyos> i should expect six requests, five from joe's neighbors, and one from joe
[19:46] <linyos> i don't know which one came from joe
[19:46] <linyos> but i know how many to allow;
[19:46] <Elly> so what do you do
[19:46] <Elly> if you get seven requests
[19:46] <linyos> you say sorry, something's wrong
[19:46] <linyos> and refuse to route them
[19:47] <Elly> simple DoS there
[19:47] <Elly> all someone has to do is send two requests
[19:47] <Elly> if you don't trust the other nodes it's a lot harder to do
[19:47] <linyos> all joe can do is kick himself out of the network by sending bob illegal DVD request packets
[19:48] <linyos> because bob simply does not allow joe to send seven requests
[19:48] <linyos> all i'm saying is maybe there's a way to impose request limits on clients without betraying what they request
[19:48] <linyos> by enforcing certain properties
[19:49] <linyos> maybe then you could put an upper bound on network load
[19:49] <Elly> *shrug*
[19:49] <Elly> you can do global rate limiting
[19:50] <linyos> rate limiting meaning failing on X of N requests where X/N is the ratio of load/capacity?
[19:50] <linyos> the network's utility declines to zero as X/N approaches infinity
[19:51] <linyos> because your chance of getting a legit request through is about the same as winning the lottery
[19:51] <linyos> what's necessary is local rate limiting.
[19:51] <Elly> you can't do that
[19:51] <Elly> without corellating two requests to some sort of ID
[19:51] <Elly> which ruins the anonymity
[19:51] <Elly> and makes it pseudonymous instead
[19:52] <linyos> my bob and joe scheme is something in that direction
[19:52] <linyos> haven't thought it through.
[19:54] <Elly> I tried to design a thing like you're talking about
[19:54] <Elly> but it was a chat network
[19:54] <Elly> the thing is
[19:54] <Elly> if you trust other nodes
[19:54] <Elly> then you have no problem with rate limiting
[19:54] <Elly> because all nodes have the network's best interests at heart
[19:54] <Elly> and if you don't
[19:54] <Elly> then you are vulnerable to people introducing bogus IDs
[19:55] <toad_> Claiming FreeNet was just "designed" for child porn is like saying
[19:55] <toad_> Slashdot was designed to attract trolls. Sure, it happened, but that
[19:55] <toad_> wasn't the original intent; back when it started, I think they honestly
[19:55] <toad_> wanted to encourage and support open, public debate on important
[19:55] <toad_> topics. Heh. Whoops.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)
[19:55] <toad_> ROFL
[19:55] <linyos> in a sneakernet trust would only go so far as your adjacent links (your friends)
[19:57] <Elly> do you trust the people your friends trust?
[19:57] <linyos> supposing that A of B nodes are malicious, maybe you can get some maximum load as a nice function of that ratio.
[19:57] <Elly> toad_: post to slashdot
[19:57] <linyos> Elly: i don't think so.
[19:57] <Elly> linyos: Why not? Your friends trust them and you trust your friends
[19:58] <linyos> it would be best if trusting your friends would be necessary and sufficient to have anonymity.
[19:58] <Elly> so let's say
[19:58] <Elly> that you trust your friend
[19:58] <linyos> as far as other properties like resistance to flooding depending on some declining trust measure, that is ok
[19:58] <Elly> and your friend trusts someone else
[19:58] <Elly> and that someone else trusts someone else
[19:58] <Elly> and so on and so on
[19:59] * Hory (~Miranda@82.78.27.85) Quit ("CyberLore.net - Recommendations on the best games, freeware and websites.")
[19:59] <linyos> it's entirely reasonable that your friend's friend is unlikely to be malicious. but then, one malicious 'friend' has an infinite graph of his malicious buddies behind him, whatever that means for your network...
[19:59] <Elly> freenet's getting an assload of press recently
[19:59] <Elly> linyos: Any malicious user
[19:59] <Elly> if trusted
[20:00] <Elly> can spawn other malicious users as he pleases
[20:00] <linyos> right, an infinity of them.
[20:01] * Romster (Romster@203.129.152.209) Quit (No route to host)
[20:01] <linyos> in real life i could actually imagine a sneakernet system working as a last resort substitute for a free internet.
[20:01] <linyos> you'd just have to wait a little while.
[20:02] <linyos> and avoid the gaze of the party members
[20:02] * Elly shrugs
[20:02] <Elly> with my chat system
[20:02] <Elly> the barrier to unlimited malicious users
[20:02] <Elly> was the time needed to make a new identity
[20:02] <Elly> which is a huge digital signature
[20:02] <Elly> it takes hours to generate
[20:03] <Elly> so making more than a few users is not feasible
[20:03] <linyos> i never liked hash cash. the playing field is too uneven when one guy has special hardware.
[20:03] <linyos> and everyone else has slow computers.
[20:03] <TheSeeker> I'm still not sure how you can possibly add dynamic *but focused* routing in a sneakernet...
[20:03] <Elly> Gnunet is already at that stage, just needs more peers. But Freenet won't do that, because they'd rather keep making speeches about privacy and free speech rather than getting on and actually coding the program to get it working.
[20:03] <Elly> owch.
[20:04] <Elly> TheSeeker: the theory with mine was that you'd maintain lists of which files are owned by which IDs
[20:04] <Elly> without associating an ID with a node
[20:04] <Elly> so you'd look at your list and say 'Okay, user A has file B, and I was introduced to user A by node C, so I'll request it from node C'
[20:05] <Elly> and node C says 'Hmm, user D wants something from user A, which was introduced to me by node E, so I'll request it from there'
[20:05] <Elly> and so on through however many steps it takes to reach a node where user A is locally connected
[20:05] <Elly> and then back
[20:06] <linyos> the "trust gravity" property, where the probability of a user's being malicious declines as you radiate out through the graph from your edge, is pretty interesting.
[20:06] <TheSeeker> resistance movements usually work better when people congregate and know eachother, don't they?
[20:07] <linyos> perhaps that property could inform caching decisions, how to fill up your terabytes of disk with secret messages
[20:07] <TheSeeker> or do most movements die before they have a chance to work due to infiltration?
[20:07] <linyos> err s/declines/increases/
[20:09] <linyos> like, the set of documents you cache could reflect the collective interests of your gravitational field in the universe
[20:09] <linyos> somehow
[20:09] <Elly> *blink*
[20:10] <linyos> very precise reasoning, huh
[20:10] * Elly ponders emerging gnunet
[20:10] <linyos> i tried tor last week, worked ok.
[20:11] <linyos> stupid about how it doesn't do dns though.
[20:11] <linyos> that is embarrassing.
[20:11] * mikeeusaa (~rvm@901f99c182d7676d.session.tor) has joined #freenet
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> FREENET
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> FREENET
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> FREENET
[20:11] <linyos> ok, somebody kick this guy.
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[20:11] <linyos> toad_: we need a kick here.
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> linyos, shut up you fag
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> linyos, shut up you fag
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[20:11] <Elly> yes, we do
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> linyos, shut up you fag
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[20:11] <mikeeusaa> what's up?
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> what's up?!
[20:12] <linyos> mikeeusaa: you are the most depraved, worthless troll i have met..
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> WHAT THA FUCK IS UP
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> linyos, you haven't met me
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> you have only bitched at me on IRC
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> Because YOU ARE A BITCH
[20:12] <mikeeusaa> stinky pussy
[20:13] <linyos> i've seen enough of you to know that you're an insult to all the other trolls in this unfortunate world.
[20:13] <mikeeusaa> linyos, what's it like having a smelly cunt fish?
[20:13] <Elly> linyos, ignore him
[20:13] <mikeeusaa> Death To women's Rights
[20:13] <linyos> ignored
[20:13] <Elly> I think I'm going to try gnunet
[20:13] <Elly> it's reputation-based according to the faq
[20:13] <mikeeusaa> well.. perhapse... since I contrib to OSS
[20:14] <mikeeusaa> when other trolls (which I am not) don't
[20:14] <linyos> last time i read about gnunet they had a very sleazy approach to scalability.
[20:14] <Elly> They do?
[20:14] <Elly> what is it, heh?
[20:15] <linyos> it was a bunch of wishful thinking about how "well performing nodes will be preferred" while their routing is otherwise broadcasting.
[20:16] <Elly> *shrug*
[20:16] <Elly> I'll give it a shot
[20:16] <linyos> if any node performed better than another under those conditions it would be proof of god's existence
[20:16] <Elly> why do you say?
[20:16] <Elly> I mean, it sounds like it would work if properly implemented
[20:16] <Elly> also, working and crappy routing >> not working and elegant routing
[20:17] <linyos> because (last time i checked, which was years ago) there was no routing discipline of any kind.
[20:17] <linyos> which meant that it was not a viable distributed hashtable.
[20:17] <linyos> a dist.hash. has to be able to organize itself.
[20:17] <linyos> freenet organizes itself.
[20:18] <linyos> gnunet didn't.
[20:18] <Elly> I'll test it and see
[20:19] * Elly hmms
[20:19] <linyos> oh, never mind. they have improved.
[20:19] <mikeeusaa> NIGGA!
[20:19] <linyos> they're implementing a real DHT over their pipe framework thing.
[20:19] <linyos> so never mind.
[20:20] <TheSeeker> freenet organizes itself... has anyone actually made network maps taken over time to show this organizatino?
[20:21] <Elly> toad makes maps using sims
[20:22] <TheSeeker> he stop using static links snd go to dynamic ones?
[20:23] <linyos> by 'organization' i simply mean that it can locate data with less than O(n) complexity.
[20:23] <linyos> approximately, O(log(n)), give or take.
[20:23] <linyos> where n is network size.
[20:25] <TheSeeker> I think I'm starting to see the problem with freenet.
[20:25] <Elly> TheSeeker: do tell
[20:26] <TheSeeker> ok, the problem with having a set specialization range, is that if you route requests outside of that range, you're much more likely to have made the request yourself.
[20:27] * cbreak (~cbreak@84-72-98-199.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit ("leaving")
[20:27] <TheSeeker> so Freenet doesn't have a set range per node... instead it tries to guess at what other people things it's specialization is.
[20:27] <TheSeeker> if the node ever actually specialized, it would present the same problem as the set range.
[20:28] <TheSeeker> trending towards globally acepted specialization, and therefore better routing, is against the fundamental concepts of anonymity they're going for ... :P
[20:29] <Elly> lol
[20:29] <linyos> the key distribution of requests passing through a node would most likely (i haven't verified this) have one or more specialization humps
[20:29] <Elly> I have no idea what you are talking about
[20:30] <linyos> but there will be plenty of keys outside those hump
[20:30] <linyos> s
[20:30] <linyos> because of the way freenet nodes in the request chain get progressively more specialized relative to the requested key.
[20:30] <linyos> your node would often be in the beginning of the request chain for keys that are outside your specialization.
[20:33] <TheSeeker> does freenet use "hops" with a fake initial value to determine the % chance of going to a node not closer the requested key? (trying to remember the origin hiding methods)
[20:35] <Elly> hahaha!
[20:35] <linyos> your neighbor nodes to whom you route can't tell the difference between a request your initiated and one you're forwarding.
[20:35] <Elly> my friend just got infected with an AIM worm because he clicked and ran a random link
[20:35] <TheSeeker> and does freenet send the first hop to a random node instead of the "best" node ?
[20:35] <Elly> I clicked it too and it was like 'Want to download badstuff.exe?'
[20:36] <Elly> and laughed to myself
[20:36] <linyos> TheSeeker: i'm not sure what we're doing atm.
[20:37] <TheSeeker> it seems thgat efficient routing leads to non-anonymity, so steps are put in place to make sure that routing is never efficient enough to allow specialization :P
[20:37] <Elly> damn right
[20:37] <linyos> that's true.
[20:37] <Elly> otherwise The Man could corellate a given node with unusually fast responses to anarchist document requests
[20:37] <linyos> although the routing is naturally slow enough.
[20:38] <Elly> and infer that a node has those locally cached more than the background level
[20:38] <linyos> he can do that anyway.
[20:39] <TheSeeker> I was thinking more along the lines of "The man can then say with a high probability that reqested keys that are not inside the specialization range of a node as being requested by that node"
[20:39] <linyos> (there are tons of really good attacks on freenet, but there are also a good class of them that are prevented)
[20:39] <linyos> TheSeeker: and he can't do that because a high proportion of requests a node receives lie outside its specialization range.
[20:39] <Elly> TheSeeker, The Man doesn't need proof, just suspicion
[20:40] <linyos> because of the properties of the request chain.
[20:40] <linyos> it is very logical.
[20:40] <TheSeeker> linyos: I'm talking about if we had GOOD routing instead of crap/intentionally broken routing
[20:40] <Elly> good routing -> no anonymity
[20:40] <TheSeeker> well, less.
[20:40] <Elly> good routing is as direct as possible
[20:40] <Elly> we need it to be as indirect as possible
[20:41] * RiderOfTheStorm (~chatzilla@chrax6-a178.dialup.optusnet.com.au) has joined #freenet
[20:41] <linyos> TheSeeker: good routing by what standard? freenet's routing is much more resilient than DHT schemes.
[20:41] <TheSeeker> good routing for me would be sending requests to the node that has a specialization that is centered closest to the key you're interested in.
[20:41] <Elly> hehehe
[20:41] <Elly> And lo, I saw assembled behind him
[20:41] <Elly> a host of the brokenhearted.
[20:41] <Elly> Betrayers and those betrayed by Heaven's lies.
[20:41] <Elly> Above him the shattered mountains, before him, black water.
[20:41] <Elly> And all around him fallen feathers of immortal wings.
[20:41] <Elly> -- Book of Makhvet, 21:4
[20:41] <TheSeeker> and having nodes prefer to connect to other nodes that are centered nearest their own specialization
[20:42] <linyos> don't start a quoting war, dude...
[20:42] <linyos> TheSeeker: the thing is, the schemes that allow that tend not to be as attack-resistant as freenet
[20:43] <linyos> freenet routing sort of stands apart from the other schemes.
[20:43] <linyos> it's not easy to tweak in all sorts of ways.
[20:44] <TheSeeker> it would allow someone to set up nodes that had centers of specialization around a single key they they want to block, but they could only effectively block that key from people directly connected to them.
[20:45] <linyos> if you can coerce your nodes' specialization to that of a particular document, you really can censor it from freenet.
[20:45] <Elly> more over
[20:45] <TheSeeker> you cannot block new content by type, as you don't know the key it will have, and by the time you harvest the keys and get a node up to block the content, the content is scattered and will have a good chance of being retrievable before it ever gets to the "percfectly specialized to that key" node.
[20:45] <Elly> then The Man can order you to do the same
[20:46] <Elly> the RIAA can not order you to shut down your node
[20:46] <Elly> but they can order you to block a given key if that is possible
[20:46] <TheSeeker> freenet is capable of doing that now, isn't it?
[20:46] <linyos> god only knows what they will order you to do under tomorrow's laws.
[20:47] <Elly> true
[20:47] <linyos> TheSeeker: it may be possible to mount an effective censorship attack by making your pool of malicious nodes dynamically shape their specializations towards the key of the banned document.
[20:47] <Elly> TheSeeker: not easily
[20:47] <TheSeeker> the reason it's not done, is because the average home user doesn't have a computer powerful enough to hold every possible hashkey for compywrited content and be able to check that against the blocks in their datastores.
[20:47] <linyos> but more likely you would just flood freenet to hell first.
[20:47] <Elly> people with more bandwidth than the network
[20:47] <Elly> can always flood it to hell
[20:47] <Elly> there's no point worrying about that
[20:47] <linyos> just because it's impossible doesn't mean it can't be mandated.
[20:48] <Elly> true
[20:48] <linyos> Elly: it takes only a little bandwidth, actually.
[20:48] <linyos> Elly: you make a million requests for some set of garbage documents, spread evenly over the nodes.
[20:48] <linyos> and then you hang up.
[20:49] <linyos> for 1 kbyte of effort you get 10 mbytes of work done.
[20:49] <TheSeeker> won't the nodes start RNFing if you make more requests per minute than they tell you you're allowed?
[20:49] <linyos> freenet has a huge flood multiplier built in. even if you fix the hang-up problem, a request still employs the resources of HTL-count nodes
[20:49] <linyos> TheSeeker: you are a thousand nodes
[20:50] <Elly> linyos: a million requests, lol
[20:50] <linyos> TheSeeker: big pool of different IPs
[20:50] <TheSeeker> I've never seen a thousand nodes on freenet o.o
[20:50] <linyos> you haven't seen me flood it off the face of the earth either.
[20:50] <Elly> <Idioteq> shit.. the zombie processes have gone chaotic on my pull parity
[20:50] <Elly> <happy> flip the bits, STAT
[20:50] <Elly> <Yoinkster> you should also vi the slackware
[20:50] <Elly> <thirtyseven|IGOTHEADTODAY> I get the idea that you guys might be making this shit up.
[20:50] <TheSeeker> someone with a thousand nodes could completely destroy freenet as it is now just by being black holes :P
[20:50] <Elly> yeah heh
[20:51] <linyos> on the internet, a thousand nodes is the same as one node.
[20:51] <linyos> negligible cost.
[20:51] <TheSeeker> I don't know many people running more than 2 freenet nodes on their machines.
[20:52] <Elly> not me =D
[20:52] <linyos> don't be so narrow minded. you'd write a node that binds to a thousand different IPs.
[20:52] <linyos> the box is multhomed.
[20:52] <Elly> linyos, uh-huh
[20:52] <TheSeeker> that's a bit over my head to know if it's BS or not.
[20:52] <linyos> what about it?
[20:53] <linyos> if you have a huge chunk of IP addresses it is no big deal to route IP with them.
[20:53] <Elly> or you could just own a net core router
[20:53] <Elly> and wreak havoc
[20:54] <linyos> any schmuck can have an allocation of a few thousand stupid addresses
[20:54] <linyos> no core router in sight.
[20:54] <TheSeeker> isn't it generally difficult to get a lot of IPs in different subnets?
[20:54] <linyos> not for someone with money.
[20:54] <linyos> then it's very easy.
[20:55] <linyos> or hell, someone with the latest windows worm.
[20:55] * sanity (~ian@81-179-237-88.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ()
[20:57] <mikeeusaa> TheSeeker: Death To women's Rights
[20:59] <TheSeeker> So you're proposing that someone will be able to write a worm that installs java, installs freenet, configures freenet correctly, isntalls the port info silently into the windows firewall to prevent popups, and hides the java process from showing in the process manager? (on top of spreading itself)
[21:00] <linyos> the code necessary to make a request is tiny, you could code it up in 1000 lines of C.
[21:00] <linyos> install it the same way all that windows malware installs itself (however that is)
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> oh nice
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> who's going to do it?
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> freenet would get huge
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> got to analize the hdd space
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> and allocate appropriatley
[21:01] <mikeeusaa> and nice the fnet process to hell
[21:02] <mikeeusaa> so it dosn't inpact the poor victim
[21:02] <linyos> in fact you might fit it in 20 lines if the transport is SSL now
[21:02] <mikeeusaa> unless it's a girl's pc
[21:02] <mikeeusaa> then make hog everything and laugh at her
[21:03] <TheSeeker> most malware still shows itself in the process list.
[21:03] <TheSeeker> stuff that doesn't is usually an IE 'helper' bar,
[21:04] <linyos> well, whatever. if code red worked this could.
[21:04] <mikeeusaa> hmm how bout a very small ie helper bar?
[21:04] <linyos> but it is easier just to send the packets from your own box
[21:04] <mikeeusaa> would it beable to run 24/7 though
[21:05] <mikeeusaa> (or as long as the box is up)
[21:05] * RiderOfTheStorm (~chatzilla@chrax6-a178.dialup.optusnet.com.au) has left #freenet
[21:05] * mikeeusaa (~rvm@901f99c182d7676d.session.tor) has left #freenet
[21:06] <TheSeeker> yay
[21:13] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-77-17.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has left #freenet
[21:13] <linyos> one thing about the dvd sneakernet, a 128 bit content id is not very big.
[21:13] <linyos> you could have a huge number of outstanding requests.
[21:14] <linyos> 100 million in a gigabyte.
[21:17] <linyos> i will figure this out some time soon.
[21:17] <linyos> and code something up.
[21:17] <toad_> i don't see why the dvd sneakernet should be radically different to the trusted links architecture
[21:17] <TheSeeker> so you get a dvd, take it home, run the requests and trailer data through your node, take a snapshot of the new request and trailer data per node that you'll be sending the data out to, write individual DVDs for each node, and then go find them to pass on the data? what a pain. ... and "the man" could probably find you from all the dvd purchasing :P
[21:17] <toad_> there's no point rewriting it
[21:17] <toad_> TheSeeker: so use RWs
[21:17] <linyos> toad_: i want to exploit trust properties to prevent flooding.
[21:17] <linyos> but i have not thought about this yet.
[21:18] <linyos> so don't expect an argument with logical points and all that.
[21:18] <toad_> linyos: then post to the tech list, and explain it. that information will be useful in a fixed-links network even if it uses UDP.
[21:18] <linyos> sure thing. first i have to think of it though.
[21:18] <toad_> linyos: there is no reason to duplicate effort and code
[21:18] <linyos> you know the richard feynman problem solving technique
[21:18] <linyos> 1) write down your problem
[21:18] <linyos> 2) think real hard
[21:18] <linyos> 3) write down your answer
[21:18] <toad_> we will have much the same problems on a dvd-based network as we have on the UDP based network
[21:19] <linyos> yeah, they are isomorphic.
[21:19] <TheSeeker> is that a pun?
[21:20] <toad_> and it's quite possible that we will have significant noninfringing uses
[21:20] <toad_> and not be banned many places
[21:20] <linyos> my sneakernet software is for when the internet is locked down though.
[21:20] <TheSeeker> I'd rather more time was spent trying to get freenet over IP working than trying to kill that project and turn it to a sneakernet. :P
[21:20] <linyos> or i suppose for people who want to download mp3s without paying for an internet connection.
[21:20] <TheSeeker> I'm not using a sneakernet... too much work.
[21:21] <linyos> :)
[21:21] <toad_> far too much work
[21:21] <Elly> linyos
[21:21] <Elly> I'd go out on a limb
[21:21] <linyos> you could get used to burning say four dvds per week and giving them to your friends at starbucks.
[21:21] <Elly> and say that DVD burners will become illegal before the net is that locked-down
[21:21] <toad_> hehe
[21:21] <linyos> Elly: then you could exchange hard disks.
[21:22] <TheSeeker> I wonder how the use of quantum computers will affect the ability to be anonymous on the internet?
[21:22] <linyos> i rate the net being "upgraded" to a regulated technology much higher than computer data storage devices being registered and inspected by the state
[21:23] <linyos> you could just meet your friend and transfer the data to his laptop right from yours
[21:23] <Elly> linyos: trusted hardware
[21:23] <Elly> TheSeeker: it depends entirely
[21:23] <linyos> that's probably the most likely solution.
[21:23] <Elly> one, quantum cryptanalysis. Very Bad Thing.
[21:23] <linyos> Elly: you could use old hardware.
[21:23] <Elly> two, quantum crypto. Very Good Thing.
[21:23] <linyos> because you wouldn't need to log in to the nazi internet
[21:23] <Elly> linyos, old hardware doesn't play 'trusted' content
[21:23] <Elly> you can basically just pass around documents
[21:23] <Elly> assuming old hardware is still legal in such an environment
[21:24] <TheSeeker> quantum computers + holographic storage mediums... the ability to store all the information on the net in once place and anylize it quickly x.x
[21:24] <linyos> why would you have TCPA encrypted content on the underground network?
[21:24] <Elly> I dunno
[21:24] <linyos> just re-encode it.
[21:24] <linyos> if you must
[21:24] <Elly> linyos: How?
[21:24] <linyos> you record the monitor image
[21:24] <Elly> the re-encoder would definitely not be trusted to access the hardware
[21:24] <Elly> and the output channel is encrypted
[21:24] <Elly> right up to the monitor hardware
[21:24] <Elly> heh
[21:24] <linyos> not the one to your eyes.
[21:24] <Elly> So re-record it with a video camera?
[21:24] <Elly> That'd be fucking lousy transfer
[21:25] <linyos> and you could probably open up the monitor and attach a recording device
[21:26] <linyos> it would be pretty hard to build tamper-resistant LCD circuits
[21:26] <Elly> *shrug*
[21:26] <Elly> It'd be a colossal fucking hassle
[21:26] <Elly> heh
[21:27] <linyos> it is only an issue for filez like movies and music
[21:27] <Elly> why's that?
[21:27] <linyos> who cares if your movies are a little bit worse than they might be.
[21:27] <Elly> you can put anything in a trusted format
[21:27] <Elly> imagine if documents were distributed in a trusted, encrypted format
[21:27] <Elly> and exe files
[21:27] <linyos> because the free documents in the underground would be written on unencrypted formats
[21:27] <Elly> and so on
[21:27] <Elly> heh yeah
[21:27] <linyos> like your manifestos
[21:28] <Elly> *shrug*
[21:28] <Elly> sneakernet works in principle for small groups
[21:28] <linyos> you also have to design the network to be resilient against people forgetting to do the transfers one week.
[21:28] <linyos> i think you could make it work pretty well. for instance, by caching popular documents all over the place so they are found quickly.
[21:29] <Elly> yeah
[21:29] <linyos> you have a lot of storage room if only you can use it well.
[21:29] <Elly> you could, actually
[21:29] <Elly> if you had old hardware
[21:29] <Elly> just set up a wi-fi network
[21:29] <linyos> or use a patch cable, or plug into a router in your basement and broadcast packets.
[21:30] <Elly> well yeah
[21:30] <Elly> I mean, TCP/IP is open
[21:30] <Elly> if you felt like investing a bit in it
[21:30] <Elly> you could set up a network for your apartment building or something
[21:30] <TheSeeker> I've seen a working sneakernet in an office before... it's anything but efficient. countless problems with finding teh data one os looking for, leading to re-doing of work that was already done, then the original is found and you have seperate copies floating around causing problems.
[21:30] <linyos> sure.
[21:31] <Elly> TheSeeker: you have to organize it properly
[21:31] <linyos> TheSeeker: that is why we will apply our huge intellects to optimizing it, d00d.
[21:31] <Elly> linyos: The beauty of that plan is that old hardware would be dirt cheap =)
[21:31] <Elly> lol@huge intellects
[21:31] <Elly> maybe in your case
[21:31] <linyos> and make something that any joe schmoe can use.
[21:31] <linyos> the online IQ test says mine is 144.
[21:31] <linyos> that's probably not much around here.
[21:31] <Elly> my counsellor said 163
[21:31] * Elly shrugs
[21:32] <toad_> not a very accurate measure at the best of times...
[21:32] <Elly> I know, toad_
[21:32] <Elly> btw can you ban mikeeusaa again?
[21:32] <Elly> he's trolling
[21:32] <linyos> i think mine was like that when i was a little kid, but then i must have hit my head a few too many times.
[21:32] <Elly> is/was
[21:33] <linyos> what he does doesn't deserve to be called trolling. a real troll challenges your received wisdom.
[21:33] <Elly> true
[21:33] <Elly> but uhh, if you scroll up a bit you'll see what I mean
[21:33] <toad_> linyos: it's relative to your agegroup...
[21:33] <TheSeeker> that's why I want "yay" when he left. I learned the first time that acknowledging his statements only made him make more of them
[21:34] <toad_> +20 points = 1 standard deviation, 100 = average (by calibration and definition)
[21:34] <linyos> all the other kids are their vegetables i guess.
[21:34] <linyos> ate
[21:35] <Elly> I've ignored him now
[21:35] <Elly> but toad, can you ban him?
[21:35] <TheSeeker> he'll just come back with a different name/ip.
[21:36] <toad_> who? mikeeusa?
[21:36] <toad_> Elly: gnunet isn't anonymous btw :)
[21:36] <Elly> toad_: It says it is
[21:36] <Elly> yeah
[21:36] <linyos> their web page is terrible at explaining the network technology
[21:36] <toad_> okay, I shouldn't believe what I see on /. ...
[21:36] <Elly> unfortunately
[21:36] <Elly> [11:37] * mikeeusaa!~rvm@&fe805ba173d8e90d.session.tor has joined #freenet
[21:37] <toad_> ahh
[21:37] <toad_> just ignore him, no way am i banning .tor
[21:37] <linyos> just ban *mikee*
[21:37] <linyos> tell him he's unwelcome at least.
[21:37] <Elly> yes
[21:37] <Elly> or (hint, hint) give ops to a few people
[21:37] <Elly> this channel is anarchy when you aren't here
[21:37] <TheSeeker> he knows he's not welcome, that's why he comes here :P
[21:38] <toad_> okay, who should I +o to counterbalance Elly?
[21:39] <TheSeeker> says nothing he means, means nothing he says, and just sits there laughing at how angry other people get over his words. sounds like a troll to me.
[21:39] <linyos> i suppose i'll be around for a while yet while i am working on my sneakernet program.
[21:39] <toad_> that's what /ignore is for...
[21:39] <toad_> but yes i can see the problem
[21:39] <linyos> but i am so capricious, you know.
[21:39] <toad_> i would kick/ban him if he started mouthing off at women or jews or blacks or whatever while i was here...
[21:40] <toad_> (has he ever done the racist shit? certainly he's said things about women...)
[21:40] <linyos> i read "rothschild's fiddle" today.
[21:40] <Elly> yeah he has
[21:40] <Elly> toad_: It's not so much that he bothers us as that he bothers random people who come in with questions
[21:41] <Elly> [13:08] * PrintStar!~Noneof@&adsl-68-76-101-24.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net has joined #freenet
[21:41] <Elly> [13:11] mikeeusaa: PrintStar, Death To women's Rights
[21:41] <Elly> [13:11] mikeeusaa: yea that's right PrintStar
[21:41] <Elly> [13:11] mikeeusaa: what you gunna do? Call NOW?
[21:41] <Elly> [13:11] tessier_: Funny, the first post I see decrying Newsbyte as a troll is...sanity!
[21:41] <Elly> [13:12] mikeeusaa: I'll cut all their heads off
[21:41] <Elly> [13:12] * PrintStar has quit (Client Quit)
[21:42] <toad_> ugh
[21:42] <Elly> that's not the kind of image we need
[21:42] <toad_> well he'll just change his nick won't he?
[21:42] <Elly> yeah, basically
[21:42] <Elly> we know his home IP but he'll just use tor
[21:42] * toad_ sets mode +o hobx
[21:42] <linyos> maybe he's too stupid to try.
[21:42] <Elly> doubtful
[21:43] <linyos> need a keyword ban bot
[21:43] <Elly> heh yeah
[21:43] <linyos> that would get him for sure.
[21:43] <Elly> *death*women*right*
[21:43] <Elly> *wife*slave*
[21:43] <Elly> he'd get owned
[21:44] <TheSeeker> mikee lives here: https://cat2.dynu.ca/
[21:45] <Elly> mhm
[21:45] <Elly> well
[21:45] <Elly> he says he does
[21:45] <linyos> maybe his trolling is actually a sophisticated denunciation of society's exploitation of women, and we are too dumb to understand his profound points.
[21:45] <Elly> linyos: It's possible
[21:45] <Elly> but less likely than the entire earth undergoing TEF at once
[21:45] <linyos> he is crying out against the injustice!
[21:45] <Elly> lol
[21:46] <linyos> no more booty videos for me, that's for sure.
[21:46] <Elly> oh mighty toad, bring down the shining glory of thine +o upon me!
[21:46] <linyos> i guess it is what you make of it.
[21:47] <linyos> back to sneakernets...
[21:47] * linyos turns off the music to think harder.
[21:47] <TheSeeker> note the tilte of that page up there... 'Feminism Delenda Est' definately the same guy. :P
[21:48] <Elly> hmm...is that 'thy' or 'thine'?
[21:50] <Elly> 'For security purposes...' and his SSL cert expired 2 years ago
[21:51] <TheSeeker> mikeeusa@cat2.ath.cx wants to be added to all internet mailing lists.
[21:52] <linyos> stop dignifying his juvenile rhetoric by reading it...
[21:52] * toad_ sets mode +o Elly
[21:53] <Elly> it's funny though =O
[21:53] <Elly> thanks toad_
[21:53] <Elly> "Freenet: The only anonymous p2p network marked stable in portage!" <--- new slogan
[21:53] <toad_> Elly: you probably need to be identified...
[21:53] <Elly> I am, am I not?
[21:53] <toad_> marked stable? ugh
[21:53] <Elly> yeah, I am
[21:54] <Elly> I identify on connect
[21:54] <toad_> Elly: yes cool
[21:54] <Elly> why ugh <-> marked stable?
[21:54] <linyos> "stable" doesn't mean "works"
[21:54] <toad_> i wonder if my not being available when mikeeusaa wanted to talk to me precipitated his trolling?
[21:54] <linyos> its stability lies in its consistent broken condition.
[21:54] <toad_> LOL
[21:55] <Elly> that would explain a lot
[21:55] <Elly> like how xchat is 'stable'
[21:55] <TheSeeker> he probably wanted to tell you how much he hates women personally, instead of having to have you read it in a log file.
[21:55] <Elly> and by 'stable' they mean 'crashes all the time but doesn't change'
[21:55] <toad_> oh, people, what freesites should be on the gateway? some of the old ones have gone...
[21:55] <TheSeeker> from his site, it looks like he hates women because he was rejected once.
[21:55] <Elly> TFE, CofE
[21:55] <Elly> uhh
[21:56] <Elly> maybe a couple of the bigger flogs
[21:56] <linyos> preferably not the ones that link to porn, for a change.
[21:56] <Elly> TheSeeker: I reckon he was abused as a kid or something horrible
[21:56] <Elly> linyos: All the spiders link to porn
[21:56] <TheSeeker> so does google.
[21:56] <Elly> Yes
[21:56] <Elly> google links to more porn than all our spiders combined
[21:56] <Elly> it links to metric tons of porn
[21:56] <TheSeeker> you just have to search for <anything> first to find it, instead of it being shown to you right off :P
[21:57] * toad_ doesn't understand why there can't be "clean" indexes for various kinds of "clean"
[21:57] <toad_> we'll have to have a set of indexes linking to each other eventually anyway for scaling reasons...
[21:57] <linyos> we've had this stupid flame war a thousand times, i still think we have no business associating ourselves with specific documents. that lies totally outside our remit.
[21:57] <toad_> we don't
[21:57] <toad_> but we have to provide a jumping off point
[21:57] <linyos> let the damned users get their URIs some other way.
[21:57] <Elly> yes
[21:58] <Elly> users can't just find shit on their own
[21:58] <TheSeeker> people don't want to be shown that content exists on a network, they want to have to search for it, and only get results they wanted :P
[21:58] <Elly> linyos: *hollow laughter*
[21:58] <linyos> edonkey URIs are all over the web!
[21:58] <linyos> works fine for them.
[21:58] <Elly> edonkey is fast and has lots of users
[21:58] <Elly> freenet is struggling to have a network
[21:58] <toad_> if the author of an index is totally anonymous, then he can link to what he likes
[21:58] <TheSeeker> I wonder how fast freenet would be with as many users as ED2K has...
[21:58] <Elly> technically he can link to what he likes anyway
[21:58] <Elly> TheSeeker: depends on how well we scale
[21:58] <toad_> not very, at the moment
[21:59] <toad_> usually things slow down with size above a certain point
[21:59] <Elly> toad_: Freenet help looks gone, FIND looks gone, YoYo looks gone
[21:59] <TheSeeker> tell that to bit torrent :P
[21:59] <linyos> toad_: think of all the users (like tavin once described) who throw out their node because all that child porn is in their face when they click a few links deep from the front page.
[21:59] <toad_> there would probably be good effects on splitfiles though
[21:59] <TheSeeker> Elly: are you on stable or unstable?
[21:59] <Elly> linyos: Make a good index for us
[21:59] <Elly> and maintain it
[21:59] <Elly> seeker: stable
[21:59] <toad_> Elly: we need to link to others. there ARE others. they were linked from FIND
[21:59] <linyos> we don't have to rub their faces in the fact that freenet contains such things.
[21:59] <toad_> maybe they're still linked from TFE?
[21:59] <Elly> we really, really should have a clean index
[21:59] <linyos> it's totally unnecessary and harmful.
[22:00] <Elly> yeah, I'm just trying to retr TFE now
[22:00] <toad_> but i do think that on the open network we have to provide some jumping off links
[22:00] <Elly> I think OFIFY would be a good one to have
[22:00] <Elly> CofE should stay
[22:00] <toad_> now, on the CLOSED network, we can have each user share his own bookmarks...
[22:00] <linyos> toad_: the project can publish its own freesite then.
[22:00] <Elly> TFE must stay
[22:00] <toad_> linyos: which logically can't link to any content
[22:00] <linyos> that's no problem.
[22:00] <Elly> anything we link to is seen as an endorsement by us
[22:00] <toad_> linyos: and which also we would have to secure so we could distribute stuff
[22:01] <toad_> updates eg
[22:01] <linyos> so you or ian controls the key, whatever.
[22:01] <toad_> Elly: well maybe long term we'll get everyone on the darknet. :)
[22:01] <toad_> but that's a bit of a dream.
[22:01] <toad_> linyos: you need more than that
[22:01] <toad_> linyos: you need several trustworthy people who can revoke it if it's blown
[22:01] <Elly> toad_: If everyone's on the darknet, it's not dark
[22:01] <toad_> which it WILL be sooner or later
[22:01] <linyos> you could have links to all sorts of files there for newbies to check out, like thousands of books and so forth.
[22:01] <toad_> Elly: yes it is
[22:02] <linyos> toad_: we have ssk revocation now?
[22:02] <linyos> news to me.
[22:02] <toad_> linyos: most books are in copyright...
[22:02] <TheSeeker> You just have to put a disclaimer by the index links that you are not responsible for their content, and allow any spider or index site to be listed... be an 'official' index of indexes so to speak.
[22:02] <toad_> linyos: no, we don't
[22:02] <linyos> i mean gutenberg.
[22:02] <toad_> linyos: we need revocable SSKs before we can have a project freesite
[22:02] <linyos> tons of stuff, you can read all of checkov.
[22:02] <toad_> i suppose i should read the backlog since i can't copy it to another buffer (it's too big!)
[22:03] <Elly> lol
[22:03] <linyos> if the thing gets taken over big deal, you say sorry and change it.
[22:03] <linyos> better than oodles of offensive porn.
[22:03] <TheSeeker> toad: is there currently some sort of secret invite-only netowrk going on right now? :P
[22:03] <Elly> toad_
[22:03] <Elly> the slashbots make a good point
[22:03] <linyos> and it's something to browse for the newbs
[22:03] <Elly> about the FAQ question about child porn
[22:04] <Elly> the answer to it is very agressive
[22:04] <Elly> "If you don't want child porn on your node you're just another oppressor"
[22:04] <linyos> toad_: just publish a CHK with a big list of books and political documents.
[22:04] <Elly> a better answer would be something like
[22:04] <linyos> toad_: then people can rejoice in how socially productive and wonderful their freenet node is.
[22:05] <Elly> "Due to the design of freenet, which makes censorship exceedingly difficult, it is also exceedingly difficult to prevent the spreading of child pornography and other distasteful materials."
[22:05] <linyos> and still download mikeeusa's collection of sadistic porn if they wnat.
[22:05] <Elly> or something
[22:06] <TheSeeker> The content that is on freenet will reflect the people that use it. Most people just don't want to know about the true nature of humanity :P
[22:06] <Elly> Hmm
[22:06] <linyos> TheSeeker: there's no reason to rub it in anyone's face.
[22:06] <Elly> alright
[22:06] <Elly> my personal project for this summer
[22:06] <Elly> is to start grabbing stuff that people actually want off the net
[22:06] <Elly> and posting it to freenet
[22:06] <linyos> Elly: there's no point, that will happen naturally once the network performs decently.
[22:07] <Elly> FOSS stuff, artistic license/creative commons books, etc
[22:07] <Elly> linyos: Content -> users
[22:07] <linyos> and before it performs decently, nothing will matter.
[22:07] <Elly> users -> content
[22:07] <linyos> users -> content
[22:07] <Elly> yeah
[22:07] <Elly> if the content is already there
[22:07] <Elly> attracting users is that much easier
[22:07] <Elly> and maybe it'll push the child porn at least off the first page of TFE
[22:07] <linyos> the users will come once the thing works reliably
[22:07] <linyos> and not one day sooner, content or no content
[22:08] <Elly> yeah I know
[22:08] <Elly> but if it runs at 100kbps and is reliable
[22:08] <Elly> people still won't use it with no content
[22:08] <linyos> what will push off the child porn is this project coming to its senses and taking the bad offensive indexes off the front page where they never should have been in the first place.
[22:08] <linyos> Elly: that will happen spontaneously
[22:08] <TheSeeker> TFE is bad for not censoring anyone?
[22:09] <Elly> no, TFE is good for it
[22:09] <linyos> people will just start using it for their movies and so on because it's less legally threatening.
[22:09] <linyos> in the near term.
[22:09] <Elly> but I don't want the first thing people see to be child porn
[22:09] <Elly> the idea bothers me
[22:09] <toad_> [18:16] <mikeeusaa> so all that has to happen is that CommunistChinaman agent get's friendly with some one
[22:09] <toad_> [18:16] <mikeeusaa> and they have the whole network
[22:09] <toad_> [18:16] <mikeeusaa> ... great
[22:09] <toad_> ummm, no
[22:09] <toad_> they don't tell them their contact details just their PKs
[22:09] <Elly> toad_, he's not here
[22:09] <toad_> and links
[22:09] <Elly> and we know already
[22:09] <Elly> but uhh
[22:09] <linyos> and i don't even know what he's referring to, so i can't add my usual pessimistic indictment of freenet's potential.
[22:10] <linyos> a shame, i'm sure.
[22:10] <Elly> short list: make the FAQ response a little bit less agressive, change the default bookmarks
[22:10] <Elly> and for myself, put up a freesite =D
[22:11] <TheSeeker> toad: does freenet intentionally sabotage routing efficiency to maintain anonymity?
[22:11] <Elly> indirect routing is less efficient than direct routing
[22:11] <Elly> but also not anonymous
[22:11] <linyos> any FAQ response is bound to be disingenuous if it doesn't recognize that many systems (like democratic censorship) could be set up to censor certain content without having a slippery slope or an uncontrollable censor.
[22:12] <Elly> could do
[22:12] <Elly> but it could be less "YOU'RE JUST A TOOL OF THE MAN IF YOU DON'T WANT TO HELP DISSEMINATE CHILD PORN"
[22:12] <linyos> you could only censor something if 90% of the users voted to, or whatever.
[22:13] <Elly> no
[22:13] <Elly> that defeats the purpose
[22:13] <Elly> the majority should not be able to censor the minority
[22:13] <toad_> [21:34] <greycat> don't forget, Congress (n.) Opposite of progress.
[22:13] <toad_> LOL
[22:13] <linyos> sure.
[22:13] <Elly> I don't take issue with the FAQ response. I like the point of it
[22:13] <Elly> but it's aggressive and implies that if you aren't all for freedom of speech at any price then you should gtfo
[22:14] <linyos> but the naive either/or either you have censorship or you don't and censorship is always a slippery slope argument is bogus.
[22:14] <linyos> you can have technically regulated censorship.
[22:14] <Elly> Not on freenet
[22:14] <Elly> I mean, you'd need a total redesign
[22:14] <linyos> you could design another technology that had it.
[22:15] <Elly> You could
[22:15] <Elly> feel free
[22:15] <Elly> but if 90% of the people can censor it
[22:15] <Elly> then a bogus agency that owns 91% of the nodes can censor anything it wants to
[22:15] <linyos> i'm just talking about how to honestly answer the "but some censorship is good" argument.
[22:15] <Elly> and don't think it's beyond the power of the government to do such a thing
[22:15] <Elly> well, I don't know
[22:16] <Elly> the honest answer is that such a thing is not possible with freenet's design
[22:16] <linyos> you could very likely design a system that resists manipulation.
[22:16] <Elly> it was designed to be censorship-resistant
[22:16] <linyos> true.
[22:16] <Elly> to that end you can't censor stuff
[22:16] * SigTyr6 (~SigTyr@ti121210a080-11224.bb.online.no) has joined #freenet
[22:16] <Elly> I mean, its design goals are censorship-resistance and anonymity
[22:16] <linyos> you can question the usefulness of the design, period.
[22:16] <Elly> You can, yes
[22:16] <Elly> but if you dislike the design
[22:16] <TheSeeker> The only way to properly censor a concept is to teach an opposing concept universally to new generations.
[22:16] <Elly> you can make your own
[22:16] * toad_ LOL at mikeeusa and Elly tying themselves up in knots over self-centered worldviews and absolute truth...
[22:17] <Elly> toad_, it was fun
[22:18] <SigTyr6> any girl who want`s to talk to a norwegean metalfan?
[22:18] <Elly> umm SigTyr
[22:18] <Elly> this is a technical discussion channel about an anonymous p2p network
[22:18] <Elly> this may not be the best place to find a date
[22:18] <toad_> [22:05] <Elly> actually someone else can probably answer this
[22:18] <toad_> [22:05] <Elly> who's going to be on the initial 0.7 darknet if/when it appears?
[22:18] <toad_> good question
[22:19] <toad_> we might have several.. but initially, me.
[22:19] <Elly> I mean, who is 'trusted' to be in it?
[22:19] <Elly> lol
[22:19] <Elly> a darknet of 1
[22:19] <Elly> is immune to denial of service, impersonation, traffic analysis
[22:19] <Elly> attacks on anonymity
[22:19] <Elly> the whole legion of attacks simply fail when you have 1 user
[22:19] <spaetz> hehe
[22:19] <spaetz> man in the middle won't work either then
[22:20] <Elly> yeah
[22:20] <spaetz> there are going to be enough people to build an initial network
[22:20] <Elly> I hope so
[22:21] <spaetz> We just need a genious marketing strategy just as gmail had :)
[22:21] <spaetz> invitation only works!
[22:21] <toad_> Lollergator: turn off pipelining
[22:21] <toad_> for freenet
[22:21] <Elly> viral marketing works
[22:22] <Elly> when you have a product that people want
[22:22] <toad_> Lollergator: no need to run bt over freenet (and not poss anyway), but our splitfile download should work similarly to bt
[22:23] <linyos> toad_: i still think this assumption that adversaries won't do traffic analysis to detect your darknet is stupid. it is such wishful thinking.
[22:23] <linyos> which makes the whole thing pointless.
[22:25] * SigTyr6 (~SigTyr@ti121210a080-11224.bb.online.no) Quit ("www.darkdate.com")
[22:25] <toad_> Elly: that is NOT what mount -o auto does... not with most FSs anyway
[22:25] <TheSeeker> Removing records of an act does not undo an act, or prevent it from being done again. It's just a way of sticking your head in the sand, pretending there's no problem, and allowing nothing to be done to take care of the problem.
[22:26] <Elly> toad_: no? oh well
[22:26] <linyos> that is why the undo button was invented?
[22:26] <linyos> so your photos won't get screwed up when you select the paintbrush tool by accident.
[22:27] <Elly> toad_: Would you change that FAQ response?
[22:27] <linyos> <NewsByte> toad: Would you fly me to the moon?
[22:27] <TheSeeker> re-market freenet as a distributed uncensorable blog, which comes with a simple blocg maker tool.... then let people "discover" hacks for it like Frost, FIW, and FUQID to allow other content to be distriobuted ;)
[22:27] <linyos> <NewsByte> I AM ENTITLED!!1!!
[22:28] <spaetz> newsbyte sucks
[22:29] <TheSeeker> the blog maker tool should have the ability to add friends, and automatically make links to their blogs as part of the freepage that's generated.
[22:30] <linyos> TheSeeker: freenet is a generic document publishing primitive. anything you can do by publishing documents, you can do by freenet.
[22:30] <TheSeeker> Yeah, but the average user doesn't need to know that.
[22:30] <linyos> i'm saying, it's not a big deal.
[22:30] <spaetz> TheSeeker: no way to hide that from the user. that is what freenet is known for
[22:30] <linyos> the problem is making the underlying network function.
[22:31] <Elly> <Aunt Tillie> Cool! A generic document-publishing primitive!
[22:31] <TheSeeker> you just need a single killer app that works over freenet so you can market freenet as "for this purpose" ...
[22:31] <toad_> linyos, Elly: we have done a lot of work in freenet on load balancing. it's not a new problem. it probably doesn't need a radically different solution for a sneakernet freenet.
[22:31] <linyos> TheSeeker: people usually call that "piracy"
[22:31] <TheSeeker> eh?
[22:31] <TheSeeker> I meant the blog thing :P
[22:31] <linyos> TheSeeker: the killer app.
[22:32] <linyos> download movies without getting lawsuits in the mail.
[22:32] <TheSeeker> follow the trends.
[22:32] <Elly> hahahahaha
[22:32] <Elly> if we bought a banner ad on slashdot and k5
[22:32] <Elly> "DOWNLOAD MOVIEZ AND WAREZ WITHOUT THE RIAA KNOWING"
[22:32] <Elly> boom, 20000 nodes
[22:32] <linyos> and the network still won't work.
[22:32] <Elly> yeah
[22:32] <Elly> but it wouldn't work in a big way
[22:32] <TheSeeker> Anime fansub groups would be a good place for getting a lot of quasi-legal content.
[22:32] <spaetz> lol
[22:32] <linyos> supposedly a million people have downloaded fred.
[22:33] <Elly> hmm
[22:33] <TheSeeker> latest version, or total?
[22:33] <linyos> anime was cool when i was 17 years old.
[22:33] <Elly> browsing through TFE
[22:33] <linyos> i'm pretty fond of korean movies now.
[22:33] <TheSeeker> I like Naruto :P
[22:33] <linyos> some of those are great.
[22:33] <Elly> I see a site which almost definitely belongs to mikeeusa
[22:33] <TheSeeker> Hero was pretty damn cool.
[22:33] <Elly> which _looks_ from the description like child porn
[22:33] <linyos> that's chinese. chinese movies are pretty lame.
[22:33] <TheSeeker> Elly: the one I linked to up there ^ ?
[22:33] <TheSeeker> oh, guess not
[22:34] <Elly> no
[22:34] <Elly> "Women are Bitches"
[22:34] <Elly> like #12 on TFE
[22:34] <TheSeeker> ah, freesite
[22:34] <toad_> [00:05] <TheSeeker> I'm still not sure how you can possibly add dynamic *but focused* routing in a sneakernet... -- of course you can! you do it exactly the same way as you do it with a fixed-links network running over any other transport
[22:35] <Elly> I like my ID introduction/creation system
[22:35] <toad_> TheSeeker: many resistance movements work well with cellular structure
[22:35] <Elly> What the hell
[22:35] <Elly> we're not designing a resistance movement
[22:36] <linyos> do you think he's particularly intimidated by girls?
[22:36] <Elly> I don't really want to speculate
[22:36] <spaetz> Elly: but we can learn a lot from their workings
[22:36] <Elly> but I'd say yes
[22:36] <TheSeeker> well, technically, anti-censorhip is a bit of a resistance movement...
[22:36] <Elly> spaetz: true
[22:36] <Elly> I suggest we take their anonymity practices
[22:37] <Elly> while abandoning the drug-running, assassinations, and bombings
[22:37] <spaetz> right, small cells connected by weak ties
[22:37] <spaetz> seems to work quite well
[22:37] <toad_> [00:18] <Elly> also, working and crappy routing >> not working and elegant routing -- no, there are a zillion broadcast networks out there. they all suck if they get big.
[22:37] <Elly> toad_
[22:37] <Elly> if it doesn't work
[22:38] <linyos> spaetz: but they _need_ to work in groups.
[22:38] <Elly> it sucks more than if it does work
[22:38] <linyos> spaetz: you don't need a group to read a book on freenet.
[22:38] * spaetz .oO(wonders when freenet gets big)
[22:38] <Elly> so wait, does the darknet encourage formation of cells?
[22:38] <toad_> [00:29] <TheSeeker> if the node ever actually specialized, it would present the same problem as the set range.
[22:38] <toad_> [00:30] <TheSeeker> trending towards globally acepted specialization, and therefore better routing, is against the fundamental concepts of anonymity they're going for ... :P
[22:38] <Elly> it makes everyone into a giant cell
[22:38] <toad_> this IS a problem, however, there are ways around it
[22:38] <toad_> premix routing for example
[22:39] <TheSeeker> premix routing is a bit over my head I think. :/
[22:39] <toad_> [00:39] <TheSeeker> it seems thgat efficient routing leads to non-anonymity, so steps are put in place to make sure that routing is never efficient enough to allow specialization :P --- no...
[22:40] <Elly> what if you were to design a network that encourages cell structures?
[22:40] <Elly> small groups of friends with closely-linked nodes loosely tied to other groups
[22:40] <toad_> [00:42] <TheSeeker> linyos: I'm talking about if we had GOOD routing instead of crap/intentionally broken routing
[22:40] <toad_> [00:42] <Elly> good routing -> no anonymity
[22:40] <toad_> [00:42] <TheSeeker> well, less.
[22:40] <toad_> [00:42] <Elly> good routing is as direct as possible
[22:40] <toad_> [00:42] <Elly> we need it to be as indirect as possible
[22:40] <toad_> no, no, and no
[22:40] <Elly> you trust your own group but not others
[22:40] <toad_> yes you need to layer the first level of anonymity on top
[22:40] <toad_> but that's not fatal
[22:41] <toad_> and as far as "as direct as possible", that's incorrect too
[22:41] <toad_> if it's too few hops you won't be able to store much, and you won't have much redundancy
[22:41] <linyos> Elly: i'm not sure what that would facilitate
[22:41] <Elly> linyos: No, it probably wouldn't
[22:42] <toad_> [00:47] <linyos> if you can coerce your nodes' specialization to that of a particular document, you really can censor it from freenet. --- modulo per node failure tables ;)
[22:43] <linyos> toad_: you just introduce a bias towards success for keyspace-proximate documents, and a bias towards failure for keyspace-distant documents.
[22:43] <linyos> toad_: do that for your swarm of 1000 nodes, and you may well control a bit of the keyspace.
[22:43] <Elly> guys
[22:43] <Elly> are we looking at the right threat vectors?
[22:44] <Elly> I mean, a single cancerous or buggy node is MUCH more likely than a large governmental-style takedown
[22:44] <linyos> i'm betting they ban the internet, personally.
[22:44] <Elly> if that happened we have to assume freenet as it is folds
[22:45] <linyos> Elly: there may be some room to dissuade governments from replacing the internet with a locked-down replacement, but i don't know how, to what extent, or for how long that is possible.
[22:45] <linyos> so i'm planning on no more free internet.
[22:46] <linyos> Elly: anyway, even a small attacker (me, for instance) could do a lot of damage to freenet by flooding.
[22:46] <spaetz> linyos: I doubt they would suceed in shutting down the internet generally (in western countries)
[22:46] <linyos> so your attack vector there is every single script kiddie with something to prove to his schoolmates.
[22:46] <spaetz> e.g. too much business depend on it
[22:46] <toad_> [01:25] <Elly> two, quantum crypto. Very Good Thing. -- not necessarily, only covers link crypto
[22:47] <linyos> spaetz: i've thought of that. but in fact, it would be easy to replace residential internet connections a filtered, proxied replacement network.
[22:47] <toad_> [01:25] <TheSeeker> quantum computers + holographic storage mediums... the ability to store all the information on the net in once place and anylize it quickly x.x --- no. data expands to fill available space :). sure we can have the library of alexandria in a back pocket, but people will find ways to exploit the extra storage
[22:48] <spaetz> spaetz: nahh, think of VoIP. There are going to be thousands of encrypted data streams over the pipes
[22:48] <toad_> [01:30] <Elly> sneakernet works in principle for small groups -- i think it can be done with large scalable trusted-links networks
[22:48] <spaetz> they can't filter all that
[22:48] <TheSeeker> true, once we get full-color, full-motion holographic recording devices...
[22:48] <linyos> spaetz: and they can filter the streams to remove any embedded data.
[22:49] <linyos> spaetz: i'm just not betting on any technical difficulties when they are designing the system.
[22:49] <linyos> spaetz: seems like you can provide people with all the internet they need without allowing any unauthorized data to pass through.
[22:50] <spaetz> linyos: if they do this I take up a gun to throw down the gov. I agree with elly that we need to address realistic threats first
[22:50] <linyos> spaetz: i think it's only a matter of time, and it would be easier than you think. but anyway, a sneakernet system could work pretty damn well to publish information.
[22:51] <TheSeeker> need is a function of avaliable options and room for innovation
[22:51] <linyos> so it is not the end of the world. just means you have to wait a little longer for your requests to complete.
[22:51] <Elly> toad_: Quantum crypto necessitates entanglement
[22:51] * linyos wanders off, later
[22:51] <Elly> there is not even a theoretical basis for finding out where the coparticle of an entangled particle actually us
[22:51] <Elly> *is
[22:51] <toad_> anyone want to develop a spec for publish-index-to-one-or-multiple-keys-then-client-side-fetch-and-search files?
[22:52] <toad_> would be really useful..
[22:52] <Elly> uhh well
[22:52] <toad_> but not critical for 0.7...
[22:52] <Elly> if you could explain what it is
[22:52] <TheSeeker> can you explain that in more words?
[22:52] <toad_> [02:04] <linyos> if the thing gets taken over big deal, you say sorry and change it. -- how?
[22:53] <toad_> [02:05] <TheSeeker> toad: is there currently some sort of secret invite-only netowrk going on right now? :P --- hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe... no.
[22:53] <toad_> [02:07] <Elly> "Due to the design of freenet, which makes censorship exceedingly difficult, it is also exceedingly difficult to prevent the spreading of child pornography and other distasteful materials." -- sorry, better answer than what?
[22:54] <Elly> than the current one?
[22:54] <toad_> Elly: keep everything, so you can reinsert it after the content reset for 0.7
[22:54] <Elly> starts like
[22:54] <Elly> The true test of someone who claims to believe in Freedom of Speech is whether they tolerate speech which they disagree with, or even find disgusting.
[22:55] <Elly> that strikes me
[22:55] <Elly> as kind of rude
[22:55] <Elly> I know it's true of myself but rude
[22:55] <Elly> toad_: "keep everything"? You want me to start grabbing stuff from freenet?
[22:55] <toad_> [02:10] <linyos> what will push off the child porn is this project coming to its senses and taking the bad offensive indexes off the front page where they never should have been in the first place. --- we can't rely on people searching the web to get their first index site
[22:56] <toad_> [02:12] <TheSeeker> toad: does freenet intentionally sabotage routing efficiency to maintain anonymity? --- no, not in general
[22:56] <Elly> ^ see what I just said
[22:56] <toad_> [02:13] <linyos> any FAQ response is bound to be disingenuous if it doesn't recognize that many systems (like democratic censorship) could be set up to censor certain content without having a slippery slope or an uncontrollable censor. --- not true - how do you hold a censor to account if they can just censor you? there ARE problems even in democratic countries
[22:57] <toad_> if people vote on censoring stuff they have to see it
[22:57] <toad_> which means it's not really censored in the first place
[22:57] <TheSeeker> not only must it be seen , but it must be seen by everyone.
[22:58] <toad_> [02:18] <linyos> you can question the usefulness of the design, period. -- sure... if you don't like absolute freedom of speech don't use freenet
[22:58] <TheSeeker> and then how do you decide how much of a majority is enough to allow it to be censored?
[22:59] <TheSeeker> the person who first put it there is probably going to be on the side of it staying...
[22:59] <Elly> toad_: Do you want me to start grabbing content and saving it or not?
[22:59] <toad_> [02:25] <linyos> toad_: i still think this assumption that adversaries won't do traffic analysis to detect your darknet is stupid. it is such wishful thinking. --- they will not do expensive statistical global traffic analysis. to start with. if we piss them off enough they may.
[23:00] <TheSeeker> Toad: will we need to re-set our datastores for 0.7, or can we just set it to a few hundred gigs now and "collect" stuff that way?
[23:00] <Elly> uhh
[23:00] <toad_> [02:27] <TheSeeker> Removing records of an act does not undo an act, or prevent it from being done again. It's just a way of sticking your head in the sand, pretending there's no problem, and allowing nothing to be done to take care of the problem. --- sure, but distributing child porn may help to create a market for it
[23:00] <Elly> we need stuff which will actually be re-insertible
[23:00] <Elly> you can't insert blocks
[23:00] <Elly> (can you?)
[23:00] <Elly> also, I don't have a few hundred gig
[23:01] <Elly> do you or do you not want me to start downloading stuff in fuqid and slapping it on my network storage
[23:01] <toad_> look, we can't tell the users that child porn doesn't exist on freenet.. we can't really hide it either. we can perhaps not shove it in their faces. maybe.
[23:01] <toad_> published searchable indexes would be useful perhaps
[23:02] <toad_> but with the tiny amount of content we have so far wouldn't make much diff.
[23:02] <TheSeeker> how do you make a searchable index?
[23:02] <toad_> personally i don't see why categorized indexes are such a big problem re child porn - you only get it if you ask for it
[23:03] <toad_> [02:34] <TheSeeker> Anime fansub groups would be a good place for getting a lot of quasi-legal content. -- quasi-legal meaning what exactly? normally they are straightforward copyright violations...
[23:03] <toad_> [02:34] <linyos> supposedly a million people have downloaded fred. - 2 million actually, at least
[23:03] <Elly> toad_: Our biggest index, TFE, is not categorized
[23:04] <toad_> [02:39] <spaetz> right, small cells connected by weak ties
[23:04] <toad_> [02:39] <spaetz> seems to work quite well
[23:04] <toad_> or by strong ties
[23:05] <TheSeeker> anime fansub groups sub anime that's not licenced for distrobution or sale in other coutries, so there's no real laws governing the distrobution of the subs... they also tend to act as a way of finding out which anime will be popular enough in the USA for licencing and distrobution, so provide a useful service (probably why they tend to not get raided and shut down, free exposure in a new market)
[23:06] <toad_> [02:42] <Elly> you trust your own group but not others -- then it'd be harvestable at the intercellular level. If you're the IRA, your cellular structure is based on fairly strong links between cells.
[23:06] <Elly> toad_
[23:06] <Elly> answer the question I keep asking
[23:06] <Elly> do you want me to start archiving stuff which is currently on freenet
[23:08] <toad_> Elly: re quantum crypto, you have no public/private key crypto with quantum crypto, and with quantum cryptanalysis against public/private key crypto, you have a big problem
[23:08] <toad_> freenet uses PK crypto for more than link level encryption...
[23:09] <Elly> god damn it
[23:09] <Elly> that's old stuff
[23:09] <Elly> answer my current question
[23:09] <TheSeeker> archiving for re-insertion will work for content, but not sites really.
[23:09] <toad_> [02:57] <Elly> toad_: "keep everything"? You want me to start grabbing stuff from freenet? --- no, you said you'd fetch stuff from the web and shove it to freenet
[23:09] <Elly> ohhh okay
[23:09] <TheSeeker> but... if someone re-upped their site, it might go faster with half their content colliding.
[23:09] <Elly> that's much easier
[23:09] <toad_> [03:00] <Elly> toad_: Do you want me to start grabbing content and saving it or not? -- no
[23:10] <Elly> yeah but see
[23:10] <Elly> I'm lazy
[23:10] <Elly> downloading stuff from the net -> easy
[23:10] <Elly> downloading stuff from freenet -> slow, painful
[23:10] <toad_> [03:01] <TheSeeker> Toad: will we need to re-set our datastores for 0.7, or can we just set it to a few hundred gigs now and "collect" stuff that way? --- yes. if you want to manually migrate stuff you can, but you'll need to make new pubkeys for everything
[23:11] <TheSeeker> so the mechanism for generating keys will be different in 0.7 ?
[23:11] <toad_> [03:05] <Elly> toad_: Our biggest index, TFE, is not categorized --- oldest, not biggest. all the others are. TFE doesn't spider iirc.
[23:12] <TheSeeker> it checks for updates, but only gets new pages by submission?
[23:12] <toad_> TheSeeker: the keys won't be compatible
[23:12] <toad_> they'll be similar but we can't migrate directly
[23:12] <toad_> only the content author can migrate by reinserting into 0.7
[23:12] <toad_> and keep his privkey
[23:12] <toad_> otherwise people can mirror stuff
[23:12] <Elly> okay
[23:13] <Elly> hmm
[23:13] <toad_> but probably getting stuff from the inet and making nice sites with it linked is good
[23:13] <toad_> as far as searching goes... you just need a file format
[23:13] <Elly> I'm going to grab shit (documents, images) off limewire and insert them
[23:13] <Elly> when's 0.7 likely, toad? ballpark estimate?
[23:13] <toad_> publisher spiders, creates an index
[23:13] <toad_> publishes it on freenet
[23:13] <toad_> client downloads whichever bits needed to fulfill his search
[23:13] <toad_> and does the search
[23:13] <toad_> Elly: no idea
[23:14] <toad_> okay, i go bed
[23:15] <toad_> bbl zzz
[23:15] <Elly> hmm
[23:15] <Elly> maybe I'll write some shit or something
[23:16] <TheSeeker> slowsearch: google clone spider crawls all of freenet, stres and ranks freepages, then polls a nim type system for formatted query messages and returns search results ... all searches and results become public, but still nobody knows who made the query...
[23:17] <TheSeeker> *stores
[23:19] <Elly> *shrug*
[23:19] <Elly> it's a possibility
[23:19] <TheSeeker> lots of resources would be needed by the 'server' here though...
[23:20] <Elly> I dunno
[23:20] <Elly> it wouldn't be THAT bad
[23:20] <Elly> freenet is way smaller than the net
[23:23] <TheSeeker> you still get a lot of FUQIDed content, hard drive space would be needed more than anything.
[23:27] <Elly> *shrug*
[23:27] <Elly> man, this is irritating
[23:27] <Elly> I feel bad stealing content from web pages
[23:30] <Elly> free content time =)
[23:32] * Elly edits the Cyberpunk Manifesto
[23:51] * vip (~vip@adsl-068-209-251-149.sip.asm.bellsouth.net) has joined #freenet
[23:54] <Elly> sigh
[23:54] <Elly> I really ought to get into helping develop
[23:54] <Elly> when school is out I will
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.