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[3:19] <e1ven> If I might ask a question which I'm sure would show my ignorance, under a darknet freenet program, wouldn't people end up submitting and getting links/references/trusted friends from an unofficially set-up freenet darknet invite spooler? Is there any reason to expect that that Wouldn't be the most common scenerio?
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[4:41] <linyos> ???????????????
[4:44] <linyos> had this big series of disturbing dreams last night
[4:44] <linyos> but, today is not last night.
[4:44] <linyos> and today i will have another crack at the problem i was wrestling with yesterday.
[4:45] <linyos> yesterday i found an effective way to make interference with a network politically costly.
[4:46] <linyos> i then realized that network interference is unnecessary, because the entire network can be locked down behind proxy software.
[4:47] <linyos> this, i called "pushing the button", and i was unable to find a credible way to make "pushing the button" politically costly.
[4:48] <linyos> we considered various special cases, such as business servers, that would be difficult to proxy.
[4:48] <linyos> however, it is the common case and not the special case that is relevant.
[5:05] <linyos> here are the two ways to break a free network:
[5:05] <linyos> 1) control access to it
[5:05] <linyos> 2) monitor what happens within it
[5:07] <linyos> rulers derive some utility from breaking a free network. call this utility X.
[5:08] <linyos> rulers incur some cost, too. call this cost Y.
[5:08] <linyos> if Y > X, they will not break the network.
[5:08] <linyos> if Y < X, they will break the network.
[5:11] <linyos> (this ignores irrational rulers and opportunity costs.)
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[6:53] <nextgens> hi
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[11:03] * spaetz just read a mail with the subject "0.7 die"
[11:03] <spaetz> gosh, newsbyte needs to grow up, I'd suppose
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[11:16] <linyos> yeah, i bet toad is so ashamed of himself for failing to please newsbyte in every possible way
[11:16] <linyos> i mean, anyone else, who cares, but newsbyte has such moral authority
[11:17] <linyos> he is like the pope
[11:33] <hobx_> /me read the list for two weeks before starting to sort his mail straight to trash. It isn't that hard.
[11:41] <linyos> nvidia's hardware multisampling isn't good enough for text rendering. (translation: i am not getting any real work done...)
[11:59] <hobx_> work sucks
[12:03] <linyos> imagine how toad feels
[12:03] <linyos> who was the guy who rolled the rock up the hill?
[12:04] <linyos> sisyphus
[12:04] <linyos> it was probably easier for him, though, because he knew he would never succeed.
[12:05] <linyos> then it's just a way of life
[12:25] <spaetz> sysiphus, nice analogy :)
[12:26] <hobx_> very original
[12:26] <spaetz> hobx, it does suck :)
[12:27] <spaetz> mmmh, wasn't that also the guy who's liver was eaten every night by eagles or something like that?
[12:27] <spaetz> mmmh
[12:28] <linyos> that was britney spears
[12:28] <spaetz> hehe
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[12:43] <hobx_> No, liver eaten by birds was a german exploding toad.
[12:43] <hobx_> Not our Toad though. I hope he doesn't explode.
[12:47] * linyos will explode if he doesn't figure out an answer to this stupid problem.
[12:47] * linyos is sick of rolling rocks
[12:47] <linyos> hit me baby one more time, and so forth
[12:48] <hobx_> what are you working on?
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[12:48] <linyos> yesterday i figured out how to create a communications network that resists political interference.
[12:48] <linyos> today i need to figure out how to make one that can't be locked behind proxies.
[12:49] <linyos> can't == there would be a high political cost to any ruler who tried it.
[12:50] <hobx_> If you figured that out yesterday, I think you should aim for world hunger today.
[12:50] <linyos> btw, those are the two preconditions for a network that (as we say) "protects freedom of expression"
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[12:52] <linyos> hobx_: here's how you do it. you set up a network that's has good privacy properties and make it important to the economy. if it's designed just right, you can't ban it or break its privacy properties by regulatory fiat without creating an economic shock that might shake your hold on power.
[12:53] <linyos> if that's just jacking off, it's the best hand job i've got
[12:53] <linyos> i thought it through more precisely yesterday
[12:57] <linyos> trouble is, i've not yet found anything that would make a ruler say, "oh, fuck, i can't put smith and jones behind a proxy, that would have bad consequence X for me"
[12:58] <linyos> (i do have something that would make him say, "oh, fuck, i can't screw with internet3 or it would bring business to a halt, pissing off my rich supporters and making people riot". in theory anyway)
[13:00] <linyos> dreaming, dreaming is free, dreaming, dreaming is free, dreaming, dreaming is free
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[13:06] <linyos> maybe newsbyte can offer a bounty for the answer...
[13:23] <linyos> somehow, "protecting free expression with freenet" sounds a little more interesting than "using whatever amount of freedom your rulers allow you with freenet"
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[13:25] <linyos> i mean, if that is the standard, toyota might as well say it's "protecting freedom of driving with camry"
[13:25] <linyos> doesn't mean dick if you're a saudi woman, or whatever
[13:30] <linyos> in the end, for freenet to live up to its aims, a ruler who curtails individual access to private communications must risk losing power as a result.
[13:31] <linyos> because that is the only reliable deterrence
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[14:15] <linyos> And when it came to the Soviet Union there was what amounted to an acceptance of the old Russian distinction between transcendent Truth (pravda) and mere factual truth (istina). It was Pushkin, again, who wrote sardonically, "The lie that uplifts us is dearer to me than the mass of petty istinas."
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[14:45] <rah> ok
[14:45] <rah> fred sucks
[14:45] <rah> sorry to say
[14:45] <rah> it's my intent to write a C++ replacement
[14:45] <rah> don't hold your breath
[14:45] <linyos> it only takes a weekend
[14:45] <greycat> good luck.
[14:46] <linyos> i would do it if i thought there was any point
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[14:53] <rah> I believe there is a point
[14:53] <rah> the reason I'm doing it is because fred seems to be a sprawling mass of unneccesary complexity and bloat
[14:54] <rah> all packages up into java
[14:54] <rah> there are issues with JVMs
[14:54] <linyos> i don't think anyone here preaches java any more
[14:54] <gregh> do it in python.
[14:55] <linyos> though it really does not matter too much so long as you write simple code
[14:55] <hobx_> has anyone tried GCJ4?
[14:57] <linyos> that C# project is scary. way to make gnome even more bloated
[14:57] <rah> err
[14:57] <rah> how does it make gnome bloated?
[14:58] <rah> unless some core program relies on the C# bindings, it's optional
[14:58] <rah> it's not part of GNOME
[14:58] <linyos> if gnome apps are horrible hogs when written in c, imagine how bad they will be when they built up seven more layers written in a bloated interpreted language
[14:59] <rah> who said gnome apps are horrible hogs when written in c?
[14:59] <linyos> i just think it's inevitable that in a few years i'll need a gigabyte of memory to run anything
[14:59] <rah> mmm
[14:59] <rah> perhaps
[14:59] <rah> I have 1.5G
[14:59] <rah> it works for me :)
[15:00] <rah> besides, they're doing lots of trimming with the next release
[15:00] <linyos> depends on how strict your standards for "horrible" are, i guess, but i have always been disgusted by how inefficient software is
[15:00] <rah> cutting down the footprint
[15:00] <linyos> if i wrote a desktop it would take like five megs of memory and do everything instantly
[15:00] <rah> well.. I think it's more memory leaks and whatnot, rather than bad design
[15:00] <rah> most of gnome is astoundingly good design
[15:01] <rah> eg, GTK
[15:01] * rah hugs gtk
[15:01] <rah> never leave me, gtk, I love you
[15:02] <linyos> i think today's compilation techniques are inherently flawed for many reasons, but a big one is that more abstractions mean more inefficiency and bloat
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[15:02] <linyos> as you pile up layer upon layer of library
[15:02] <rah> well, think about that
[15:02] <rah> the libraries serve a purpose
[15:02] <rah> they collect common code
[15:02] <linyos> if each layer adds a constant inefficiency factor, inefficiency quickly approaches infinity
[15:03] <linyos> my point is that the concepts in the code are not translated into machine instructions in a decent way
[15:03] <rah> how does a layer introduce inefficiency?
[15:04] <linyos> think about how you can have C libraries ten levels deep, and at every level, you have inefficiencies for a variety of reasons
[15:04] <linyos> that you would not have if you started with a blank slate and wrote a program that does only what you need, with no genericity
[15:04] <rah> eg?
[15:04] <rah> what are these reasons?
[15:05] <linyos> for one thing, the layers are not optimized for your particular task
[15:06] <linyos> so you might have a graphics library that is inefficient because it does more complicated stuff than you really need
[15:06] <rah> these sound like fluffy arguments to me..
[15:06] <rah> (no offense)
[15:06] <gregh> on the other hand, you can write your code orders of magnitude faster because lots of the work is already done for you
[15:06] <linyos> they are, i have not thought this stuff through too precisely
[15:07] <gregh> I sure wouldn't want to have to rewrite frame buffer manipulation code for every gui app I wanted to write
[15:07] <linyos> of course
[15:09] <linyos> my big beef is just that we are often very far from having the optimal instructions implementing the desired behavior
[15:09] <linyos> along with ten other things i hate...
[15:10] <linyos> like how the programming abstractions we do have are often so ill-suited to the concepts we want to express
[15:10] <gregh> are you hating from the point of view of a user, or from the point of view of a programmer?
[15:10] <linyos> both
[15:10] <linyos> don't ask me to argue any point very well right now throuhg
[15:10] <gregh> okay
[15:10] * gregh wanders off
[15:11] <linyos> just bitching pointlessly
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[15:55] <linyos> i think mathematicians are responsible for making computers so complex, because they are comfortable with big structures of logical relationships
[15:55] <linyos> whereas ordinary people want to learn one environment in which they can accomplish their goalss
[15:56] <cbreak> computers are made complex because ordinary people want huge numbers in front of MHz...
[15:56] <greycat> you mean GHz now.
[15:56] <cbreak> k, M, G... all only prefixes :)
[15:58] <linyos> i just want decent vector graphics hardware
[15:58] <linyos> monitors that can actually render text and shapes decently
[15:58] <cbreak> 2d or 3d vector?
[15:58] <linyos> 2d
[15:58] <linyos> apparently there are 200dpi lcds now
[15:58] <linyos> those might be good
[15:58] <cbreak> there where vector monitors, but one of the biggest steps in the direction of modern gui driven computers was the switch to a rastered representation.
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[16:00] <linyos> sure. it would just be so nice to have a monitor that renders svg. would make things way faster and simpler
[16:00] <cbreak> not realy.
[16:01] <cbreak> drawing vector graphics would make monitors much worse, either because they would have to rasterize the picture itself.
[16:01] <cbreak> or because they would have to draw vectors.
[16:01] <linyos> they could do decent sampling in hardware
[16:01] <cbreak> like in todays gpus? :)
[16:02] <linyos> today's gpus can't sample well enough to display text
[16:02] <cbreak> mine can :)
[16:02] <linyos> i just tried with my geforce4
[16:02] <linyos> turned on the high quality antialiasing mode and rendered a bunch of text shapes
[16:03] <linyos> the antialiasing was very bad compared to freetype's pixel area coverage averaging
[16:03] <linyos> because there just weren't enough samples
[16:03] <linyos> you render text with a proper raytracer, it looks ok when you have 100 jittered samples per pixel
[16:04] <cbreak> raytracing is not possible to do in hardware if you care about speed.
[16:04] <cbreak> at least currently :)
[16:05] <linyos> just illustrating how better sampling is necessary
[16:06] <cbreak> the whole gui of my operating system (ok, the next version I'll buy next week) works in the GPU.
[16:07] <cbreak> and the sampling of text is quite well done :)
[16:07] <linyos> i thought osx just used the texture processor to do scaling and compositing
[16:07] <cbreak> in panther that's all.
[16:07] <linyos> tiger renders text as splines?
[16:08] <cbreak> I don't know how much is realy done in hardware.
[16:08] <cbreak> but afaik all drawing in QuickDraw or DisplayPDF is mapped to OpenGL.
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[16:09] <linyos> text is basically the only thing that's too challenging for hardware to do right
[16:10] <linyos> it was too challenging for software to get right for a long time
[16:10] <cbreak> todays GPUs are quite programmable.
[16:10] <cbreak> vertex and pixel shaders for example.
[16:10] <linyos> i suppose they could program the shader things
[16:10] <linyos> could be
[16:11] * linyos wanders off
[16:12] <Elly> DO0M!
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[16:29] <linyos> i will write an OS where everything is monochrome formatted text
[16:29] <linyos> i hate colors and graphics and moving things, they are so 90's
[16:30] <cbreak> and you call it...
[16:30] <cbreak> Duke Nukem Forever!
[16:31] <linyos> really, i am too old to poke through GUIs any more
[16:32] <linyos> that was fine when i was a teenager, but now it gets to me
[16:32] <linyos> all the poking
[16:32] <linyos> and the colors, i'm too old for colors
[16:33] <linyos> i'm too old for grayscale
[16:38] <linyos> full-screen "computing modes" each with its own UI theory seem nice. a lot less poking to do
[16:38] <linyos> give me fullscreen hypertext typesetting, movie player, music player, photo viewer... all i need
[16:39] <linyos> down with widgets
[16:40] <linyos> down with the desktop!
[16:45] <linyos> i'm gonna restart X in grayscale mode!!!!!!
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[16:57] <linyos> doesn't help much, still too much interface. oh well
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[19:14] <cbreak> linyos: just set your login shell to vim :P
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[19:41] <linyos> actually, i really did keep X off of my computer for years
[19:42] <linyos> i want like a super-console
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[20:07] <linyos> wonder if anyone's done a study about the best fg and bg colors for text
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[20:11] <linyos> lighter and darker gray is my best try yet
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[21:26] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-81-238.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[21:52] <linyos> ruby is cool because you can use unicode logograms as identifiers
[21:56] <linyos> though i still want a language that uses less text and more crazy drawings to represent the grammar
[22:00] <Elly> wow, fuck
[22:00] <Elly> we have warez in our school FTP
[22:00] <Elly> 150 Opening ASCII mode data connection for /bin/ls.
[22:00] <Elly> drw-rw-rw- 1 user group 0 Oct 12 2004 .
[22:00] <Elly> drw-rw-rw- 1 user group 0 Oct 12 2004 ..
[22:00] <Elly> -rw-rw-rw- 1 user group 26691999 Oct 12 2004 NAV-2005.rar
[22:00] <Elly> 226 Transfer complete.
[22:01] * TheSeeker (Fridlekh@pool-71-107-148-131.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #Freenet
[22:02] <linyos> microsoft university, huh
[22:02] <linyos> students should be made to use linux! and learn greek!
[22:03] <Elly> microsoft university?
[22:03] <linyos> i mean, what use would a decent student have for windows software, right
[22:04] <linyos> only at microsoft university
[22:04] <Elly> Where'd that come from
[22:04] <linyos> because at microsoft university everybody uses windows religiously
[22:04] <linyos> never mind
[22:06] <Elly> I think you're just talking to yourself
[22:07] <linyos> that can happen when you're tired and frustrated
[22:07] <Elly> why frustrated, though?
[22:07] <linyos> because i have made no progress on today's problem
[22:08] <linyos> and that means (relevant enough!) that freenet still isn't workable
[22:10] <linyos> best way to avoid frustration: don't try anything difficult. that is the lesson.
[22:10] <linyos> maybe i should buy one of them zen gardens or something
[22:10] <linyos> or one of those squishy balls
[22:11] <linyos> prescription painkillers
[22:35] <Elly> And lo, I saw assembled behind him
[22:35] <Elly> a host of the brokenhearted.
[22:35] <Elly> Betrayers and those betrayed by Heaven's lies.
[22:35] <Elly> Above him the shattered mountains, before him, black water.
[22:35] <Elly> And all around him fallen feathers of immortal wings.
[22:35] <Elly> -- Book of Makhvet, 21:4
[22:52] * toad_ (toad@toad-with-underline.active.supporter.pdpc) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[23:25] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-81-238.vif.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[23:33] <linyos> i suppose a ruler might keep his grubby paws off the button if he thought it would make him a pariah, because that can have real consequences in profitable international relations
[23:33] <linyos> but would anyone give a fuck about a locked down internet
[23:33] <linyos> not enough to matter
[23:34] <linyos> can the pariah factor be increased artificially?
[23:35] <linyos> the stupid things i have to worry about to save this project....
[23:40] <linyos> afaict there is no way to impose a high technological cost to locking the network behind proxies...
[23:48] <linyos> is there any way to make steganography practical??
[23:49] <linyos> at least enough to push through a hundred kilobytes per day in some way
[23:50] <linyos> the web is out of the running, just impossiblee
[23:50] <linyos> with emails you would have a hell of a time concealing pattern stego traffic
[23:51] <linyos> beyond that, ban other services, nobody notices
[23:54] <linyos> modems are easily detected, plus the international calls would be a tip off anyway
[23:54] <linyos> wireless is easily detected
[23:55] <linyos> hope there is some way to solve this
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.