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[12:47] <toad_> i2p does NOT provide "militant grade anonymity". It can be harvested really easily and is probably vulnerable to traffic analysis
[12:48] <toad_> just like freenet :<
[12:48] <toad_> [22:11] <sleon|tuX> znix, when they give you reference to their node,then they will loose anonymity
[12:48] <toad_> no
[12:48] <toad_> they are already un-anonymous because they are HERE
[12:49] <toad_> it is better to have a reference from someone you know
[12:49] <toad_> because it makes a better network structure
[12:49] <Synonymous> You can use proxies with I2P using SSL so I guess you could just buy a proxy for $5.00 a month if its really worth that much to you
[12:49] <Synonymous> Make sure your proxy is in a 'good' country :)
[12:49] <toad_> if you have anonymous digicash
[12:49] <toad_> which even i2p doesn't provide
[12:50] <Synonymous> I dunno about that, i guess you could get someone else to pay for it for you
[12:50] <toad_> bbiab
[12:50] <Synonymous> Although when your advesary has the ability to compell banking records you really should worry less about Freenet and more about aquiring atomic weapons to blow up your dictator :P
[12:51] <dopeic> well if you count all the packets that is routed true the core hubs, with i2p.
[12:51] <dopeic> It makes it pritty hard to do traffic analys.
[12:52] <Synonymous> There are core hubs, fast and well inegrated i guess
[12:52] <dopeic> well it dont mather, all the hubs that got lots of traffic are corehubs
[12:52] <Synonymous> That is an interesting point, it is like a stem and leaf topology i guess (i2p)
[12:52] <Synonymous> or closer to stem and leaf
[12:52] <Synonymous> then everyone being equal :)
[12:52] <dopeic> if evryone are connected to evryone, it makes impassable to se wath traffic goes where
[12:52] <dopeic> :)
[12:53] <dopeic> well you can count out where some high trafficated sites are, if you got axx to the isp hardware and logs.
[12:53] <dopeic> but most ppl will stil be anonymous.
[12:54] <Synonymous> Yes, I think the goal is to get anonymous p2p working well enough that it is intergrated into most ppl's internet habbits, like how P2P was along that path wtih Napster.
[12:54] <dopeic> well lets take ip-phone as an example.
[12:54] <dopeic> if you got source1, that wants to call source2.
[12:55] <dopeic> the traffic can bounce anywhere in the corehubs, got so many connections, its impassable to say where wath goes.
[12:55] <dopeic> because evrything is crypted.
[12:55] <dopeic> only thing you can be sure of, where it comes to you.
[12:55] <dopeic> the closest hubs(corehubs) to you.
[12:56] <dopeic> but acting like a proxy/router on internet, isent iligal.
[12:56] <Synonymous> hmmm
[12:56] <dopeic> :)
[12:56] <Synonymous> :)
[12:56] <Synonymous> I also heard there is gnutella for i2p now
[12:56] <dopeic> yeah I read about that, waths gnutella?
[12:56] <dopeic> havent have time to read up on it
[12:57] <Synonymous> Gnutella is a searchable p2p application
[12:57] <dopeic> uhm like edonkey ?
[12:57] <Synonymous> like emule/kazaa/gnutella/
[12:57] <Synonymous> ya edonkey
[12:57] <dopeic> ohh DAMN! :) I must try that one oiut
[12:57] <Synonymous> ya lol
[12:57] <Synonymous> i want to try it too
[12:57] <Synonymous> i think its called i2phex
[12:58] <dopeic> hum can it request anything? like say webpages?
[12:58] <Synonymous> no just files
[12:58] <Synonymous> i think someone else is doing a webpage one like freenet
[12:58] <Synonymous> called Q
[12:58] <toad_> Synonymous: IMHO good communication can make the difference between a successful bloodless popular coup and a small, quickly crushed, violent uprising
[12:58] <dopeic> well I mean if a file is cached, (when you read it)
[12:58] <dopeic> on your nod
[12:58] <dopeic> or lets say a hub
[12:59] <toad_> i don't KNOW that i2p is vulnerable to traffic analysis
[12:59] <dopeic> it would balance the traffic, if a person can just take your copy
[12:59] <dopeic> instat of going to the main server
[12:59] <toad_> but i'd be very surprised if it wasn't
[12:59] <Synonymous> I agree with that Toad, it would be fun if Freenet became the corner stone to antidictator movements so that dictatorship would not be possible as there would always be good communication among citizens
[12:59] <toad_> likewise freenet
[12:59] <dopeic> and make big servers, more anonymouse.
[12:59] <dopeic> toad_ well it all depends the size of the network
[12:59] <dopeic> if a half milion ppl, run it.
[13:00] <dopeic> well try to analyze it then
[13:00] <dopeic> :)
[13:00] <toad_> your argument about connections only works if they are all constant-bit-rate
[13:00] <toad_> which really kills performance if there are lots of them
[13:00] <dopeic> and if some sites are runned in the i2p network
[13:00] <dopeic> well good luck :)
[13:00] <toad_> which there are in I2P, i think
[13:00] <toad_> lots of nodes i mean
[13:01] <toad_> <dopeic> but acting like a proxy/router on internet, isent iligal. --- theoretically, but it can produce extra legal obligations. ALSO I would argue that freenet is not per se illegal either, just because it stores stuff.
[13:01] <Synonymous> I dunno, I think I2P scales since the # of people do not enter their scaling model
[13:01] <Synonymous> I don't know though about these issues very much :)
[13:01] <dopeic> well the princip is, that evryone act like a nod/proxy. if you want to be anonymouse.
[13:01] <toad_> big servers = less anonymous
[13:02] <toad_> lots of domestic servers = more anonymous
[13:02] <dopeic> yeah thats my point
[13:02] <dopeic> well lets say you got news webpages, and a new top articel is just come out.
[13:02] <dopeic> and it get lots of hits.
[13:02] <dopeic> all nods share the webpages like a torrent file.
[13:02] <toad_> basically yes
[13:02] <toad_> on freenet
[13:02] <dopeic> so you grab the file down from the nearest points
[13:03] <dopeic> instat of the main server
[13:03] <toad_> there is no central server for the file
[13:03] <toad_> it has a permanent key
[13:03] <toad_> which looks like a URL
[13:03] <toad_> if a file becomes popular, it gets cached everywhere
[13:03] <toad_> and you can fetch it quickly
[13:03] <dopeic> well my ide is
[13:03] <dopeic> that evry server has a key as an adress
[13:03] <dopeic> and the key is just inserted to dns file, so it becomes an adress :)
[13:04] <dopeic> wola a new domain level :)
[13:04] <toad_> dns file?
[13:04] <toad_> i2p has a lookup file
[13:04] <toad_> it's hosts.txt or something
[13:04] <toad_> that translates names to crypto ids
[13:04] <Synonymous> yes that is correct
[13:04] <toad_> but it DOES NOT SCALE
[13:04] <toad_> it has to be maintained by the user
[13:04] <dopeic> I mean the local dns chach.
[13:04] <dopeic> on your computer
[13:04] <Synonymous> You cant have an anonymous global distributed DNS system
[13:04] <Synonymous> :(
[13:05] <dopeic> so evry adress, lets say with .cn is routed true the crypted network
[13:05] <dopeic> or is inside the crypted network
[13:05] <dopeic> and .com is the usual web.
[13:05] <toad_> ANYTHING where the address is a human readable name is going to have MAJOR problems scaling and maintaining anonymity while not being centralized
[13:05] <toad_> .cn is china iirc
[13:05] <toad_> they use .i2p
[13:05] <dopeic> ohh hehe well .i2p works to :)
[13:05] <toad_> but basically, the solution is to use URLs with lots of crypto garbage in them
[13:05] <toad_> like this one:
[13:06] <Synonymous> You can do it either way, its just a shotcut file for addresses you use a lot :)
[13:06] <toad_> Synonymous: sure, but then it won't scale
[13:06] <dopeic> yeah there is one point I havent manage to solve out
[13:06] <Synonymous> It also isnt global since multiple people can have the same address
[13:06] <Synonymous> (human readable address)
[13:06] <dopeic> ppl got high speed connections this days, but the upload is crapy
[13:06] <dopeic> anyone got an ide how to patch that?
[13:06] <cbreak> get a symentric link.
[13:06] <toad_> hmmm my node has problems...
[13:06] <dopeic> because only say, a popular news pages. that is near you will get a high speed.
[13:07] <toad_> dopeic: it can't be fixed except by spending money
[13:07] <Synonymous> There probably will be an application designed to keep track and translate ugly crypto links into human readable links
[13:07] <dopeic> but less popular programs and shows will get raelly crapy speed.
[13:07] <toad_> it's a big problem for distributed p2p
[13:07] <dopeic> naah
[13:07] <toad_> Synonymous: YES BUT IT WILL NOT SCALE
[13:07] <dopeic> do you know wath peering agrement btw isps is ?
[13:07] <toad_> Synonymous: it HAS to be centralized
[13:07] <toad_> for it to be anonymous
[13:07] <toad_> and scale
[13:07] <toad_> dopeic: why does it matter?
[13:07] <Synonymous> it will scale, all you have to do is have someone tell you the hash and the human readable name, the rest is up to you
[13:08] <toad_> Synonymous: that does not scale
[13:08] <dopeic> half of the traffic slowdown, is created by that it takes slow routes.
[13:08] <toad_> Synonymous: the fetch part does scale
[13:08] <toad_> the lookup part does not scale
[13:08] <Synonymous> its just a hash URL with optional human readable translation at the user's convinence
[13:08] <dopeic> well lets take my shellbox as an exampel
[13:08] <toad_> yes
[13:08] <toad_> but
[13:08] <dopeic> I got 100mbit inside .se
[13:08] <dopeic> but only 10mbit outside the world
[13:08] <toad_> if people are anonymous, and even if they are not, they will register every domain they can think of
[13:08] <dopeic> but if it can split the traffic in to fragments that take separe routes
[13:08] <toad_> they do, in reality, even though it costs Real Money
[13:08] <dopeic> true difrent isps
[13:08] <Synonymous> They cant regsiter them because they are unique
[13:08] <toad_> if it's free, it's even worse
[13:09] <toad_> if they are unique, then you have to go by the unique component, which is the hash
[13:09] <Synonymous> It will be up to the user to determine what toad.i2p connects to (which hash)
[13:09] <dopeic> and uses rating how good the traffic flow is
[13:09] <dopeic> well wola
[13:09] <toad_> which is exactly what we do in freenet
[13:09] <Synonymous> since there could be 50 toad.i2ps
[13:09] <toad_> right, you can do aliases for the user
[13:09] <dopeic> then you get 100mbit -> 100mbit to lat say the states
[13:09] <toad_> but it has to be entirely done by the user
[13:09] <dopeic> brb
[13:09] <Synonymous> it can be automated :o)
[13:10] <toad_> that's grossly inconvenient, it CANNOT be automated, and it's not very useful
[13:10] <toad_> dopeic: here's an example URL from freenet: http://127.0.0.1:8888/SSK@9G4s~jLQJB7ALQg-v2q5xKAJy9YPAgM/CofE//
[13:10] <toad_> the second part ( SSK@9G4s~jLQJB7ALQg-v2q5xKAJy9YPAgM/CofE// ) is the actual key
[13:10] <toad_> the first part is the node
[13:11] <toad_> because we access it over HTTP
[13:11] <toad_> from our local node
[13:11] <Synonymous> It can be automated since if toad.i2p (hash: 5555332) is the one i like I can have it set so I tell people/vote for that link, peoples hosts.txt could be updated to reflect that. As well if you have mutliple toad.i2ps, you can have an autonumber ranking system that shifts them depending on what your friends say is a goods ite
[13:11] <Synonymous> i.e. all my friends say toad.i2p (hash: 139320) is good, it goes from toad(5).i2p to toad(2).i2p
[13:11] <toad_> voting is impossible without reputation... it becomes very hard to do it anonymously
[13:11] <Synonymous> yes, reputation is necessary but can be implemented down the line, it is very hard to do you are right
[13:12] <Synonymous> i dont think anyone has done a large reputation system on anonymous p2p yet, other than frost
[13:12] <toad_> reputation requires identity
[13:12] <toad_> and therefore gives away a good deal of information
[13:12] <Synonymous> it can, although identity is cheap and you can still keep your preferences and change yoru identity
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[13:12] <Synonymous> it would just harm ppl depending on your recommendations :)
[13:12] <toad_> identity cannot be free
[13:12] <cbreak> I am 20 people...
[13:12] <toad_> it must be costly
[13:13] <toad_> otherwise people will just make new ones
[13:13] <toad_> There Is No Negative Trust In Cyberspace
[13:13] <Synonymous> It can be free and if ppl make new oens let them, as long as you weight new identities lower that costs
[13:13] <toad_> no, because people will then create a zillion identities and flood you with them
[13:13] <toad_> the sad fact is that if you use identity for anything important, it has to have a cost
[13:13] <Synonymous> No, they cant flod you since you deicde who you trust, they have nothing to do with it
[13:13] <toad_> that cost can be low
[13:14] <toad_> in which case there is a cost
[13:14] <toad_> which is that initially nobody can hear you
[13:14] <Synonymous> You decide who you trust based on their actions, and if their actions are stupid you dont trust them :o). Such as if I like a site I'll do a +1 trust to your key, which = a +0.5 trust to your friends etc, it can be easy
[13:14] <dopeic> toad_ well then the easyst way should be that a central nod is created for keep update of the keys
[13:14] <toad_> right
[13:14] <toad_> in which case
[13:14] <dopeic> and keep the speed up
[13:14] <dopeic> ?
[13:14] <toad_> you can create 10,000 identities
[13:14] <toad_> and with each of them send a spam to the target
[13:15] <Synonymous> Create them, I still wont give them +1 trust
[13:15] <toad_> the target has no means of connecting the 10,000 identities together
[13:15] <Synonymous> unless i liek their site
[13:15] <toad_> you've just fscked him up
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[13:15] <toad_> Synonymous: YOU CAN'T GIVE HIM ___ANY___ TRUST!
[13:15] <Synonymous> yes I can, he has a public key and an identity and website
[13:15] <toad_> he will spam you and there's nothing you can do about it
[13:15] <Synonymous> I control what sites earn my trust, they cannot spam me into trusting them, i hoep that is clear :o)
[13:16] <toad_> Synonymous: you're not getting it, I give up, I have other things to do, you'll have to learn the hard way, sorry
[13:16] <cbreak> I am the FBI. I am thousand people. I have Homepages for all.
[13:16] <toad_> oh and I don't work for I2P :)
[13:16] <Synonymous> Yes you dont hehe
[13:16] <toad_> hopefully cbreak can explain it to you
[13:16] <cbreak> If you want to decide to trust me, you have to read them all.
[13:16] <cbreak> If you don't you will miss all legit users too...
[13:16] <dopeic> are we talking spam into internet, or inside the crypted network?
[13:16] <Synonymous> So what if I do?
[13:16] <nextgens> yop
[13:17] <Synonymous> I only care about sites I like, they earn a +1 trust so I can have similiar sites I like of theirs on their friend list
[13:17] <Synonymous> Also +1 trust moves their human readable name rank closer to 1
[13:17] <Synonymous> this trust system is just a matter of convinence not necessity
[13:17] <cbreak> you will trust some of me. I will trust all of me.
[13:17] <toad_> recommendations are a form of trust. But how do you get newbies into the whole web of trust? either they have to know somebody or they have to bribe somebody, or somebody has to read everything and therefore get flooded constantly.
[13:18] <cbreak> -> you will trust all of me.
[13:18] <Synonymous> Newbies dont need to be in the web of trust, if you choose not to participate then you'll just have to wade through all the toad(1-100000).i2ps and decide which ones you like and which you dislike
[13:18] <Synonymous> at the end you can just choose to use the hash urls instead and wash your hands of having to use the trust sytem
[13:20] <dopeic> Synonymous are you talking about when the proxys(nodes), want to axx the world wide web?
[13:20] <Synonymous> No i'm takling about a human readable form translation (DNS) for hash urls :P
[13:21] <dopeic> well as I said, a central dns server for that?
[13:21] <dopeic> should that be the easyt soulution
[13:21] <dopeic> ?
[13:21] <dopeic> and those how dont want, a dns for there hash identity can use the hash tag instat?
[13:21] <Synonymous> Yes, or you can just assign a rank to people you like so they 'earn' the base name XXXXXX.i2p with the others being XXXXXX(2).i2p, XXXXX(3).i2p
[13:22] <dopeic> well asign adresses, to the most active nodes?
[13:22] <Synonymous> If I really like you I'll give you some trust and all that does is pushes your rank to XXXXXX.i2p :)
[13:22] <dopeic> that way you craete activity in the net
[13:22] <dopeic> :)
[13:22] <Synonymous> You can do it that way as well
[13:22] <Synonymous> Assholes get XXXXXX(5555).i2p
[13:22] <Synonymous> I can also decide on their name too, it isnt that big a deal it just makes it easier if you dont like ugly hash urls
[13:23] <dopeic> yeah
[13:23] <dopeic> well that is a sort of simple and old solution
[13:23] <nextgens> toad_: here ?
[13:23] <Synonymous> And they are using what is it SHA 256 or is it 512, their hashes are a mile long
[13:23] <dopeic> but the more intressting part is,
[13:23] <Synonymous> Toad was here
[13:23] <dopeic> that you can bounce the traffic true lots of difrent isp
[13:23] <dopeic> isps even
[13:23] <toad_> sorry, you need something?
[13:23] <Synonymous> He ran away screaming as he is prone to do when talking with me, or newsbyte
[13:23] <Synonymous> :)
[13:23] <dopeic> isps that got high speed connections around the world
[13:23] <nextgens> Synonymous: thanks :)
[13:23] <toad_> make a direct question
[13:23] <dopeic> lets say my isp just got high speed connection localy
[13:24] <dopeic> and lots of nodes got high speed axx to the world
[13:24] <dopeic> or lets say europe
[13:24] <dopeic> of corse I want to bounce true this nodes then :)
[13:24] <dopeic> is there any routing algorithm for that yet?
[13:24] <Synonymous> hmm
[13:25] <dopeic> and that the data packets, is splited and send true lots of difrent nodes
[13:25] <dopeic> and not just true one
[13:25] <dopeic> like a torrent file
[13:25] <Synonymous> Nots ure if you can do that with I2P, what I would do is just by a proxy
[13:25] <dopeic> that should make the net go lot faster
[13:25] <Synonymous> You can bounce through the proxy with I2P using SSL
[13:25] <dopeic> because then you aint bound to a singel isp
[13:25] <Synonymous> You'd have to set that up though
[13:25] <dopeic> humm naah well
[13:25] <Synonymous> People could donate proxies as well :o)
[13:26] <dopeic> i2p works like a proxy right?
[13:26] <dopeic> well my ide was that evryone that installs i2p client, works as a proxy
[13:26] <dopeic> :)
[13:26] <Synonymous> It can work like a proxy but why not just use a proxy if you are scared someone might know your address?
[13:26] <dopeic> and decitacets bw for it
[13:26] <dopeic> naah
[13:26] <Synonymous> The proxy solution resolves Toad's objection that harvesters can get my IP address
[13:26] <dopeic> this is more of traffic balancing then paranoid thinking
[13:27] <dopeic> I want the network to work in high speed
[13:27] <Synonymous> Ah that is good because i am not paranoid and i dont care if ppl know I am using it :o)
[13:27] <Synonymous> WIth I2P you can choose your tunnel length, set it to 0 so you can have a fast connection
[13:28] <cbreak> if you don't want to tunnel, why use a tunnel=
[13:29] <dopeic> well the internet is build with lots of high ways
[13:29] <dopeic> imagen lots of high ways with cares.
[13:29] <dopeic> but if you work for one company, you can just use that high way.
[13:29] <Synonymous> Because people dont know my tunnel is 0 so I can use I2P and still have the appearence of routing traffic for others when infact I am routing formyself and getting a direct connect and anonymity at the same time :P
[13:29] <dopeic> *suxs big time*
[13:29] <dopeic> with i2p, you should be able to use all the high ways :)
[13:29] <dopeic> get my point ?
[13:29] <Synonymous> Having your tunnel at 0 though is riskier :P
[13:30] <dopeic> and the big trailers(packets) are splited in to lots of small cars
[13:30] <dopeic> and send true all the high ways :)
[13:30] <cbreak> dopeic: you can't use predetermined routes with ipv4
[13:30] <dopeic> naah not with ipv4
[13:30] <cbreak> I think it's supported in ipv6, but am not sure.
[13:30] <dopeic> but if you use a ipv6 layer in the private network
[13:30] <dopeic> and then ipv4 for the internet transport
[13:30] <dopeic> that sould do the work?
[13:31] <dopeic> you can chouce routes with ipv6
[13:31] <cbreak> it will be routed as IPv4 thinks it's best.
[13:31] <toad_> it doesn't support ipv6 at the moment
[13:31] <dopeic> k crap
[13:31] <toad_> if somebody wants to implement it i'll help but imho it's not important
[13:31] <Synonymous> I2P? ya it does not
[13:31] <dopeic> anyone know when i2p will support ipv6 ?
[13:31] <Synonymous> It isnt
[13:31] <Synonymous> in 10 years when ppl use it hehe :o)
[13:31] <dopeic> toad_ well I am very intressted to get ipv6 working on it :)
[13:32] <toad_> why?
[13:32] <cbreak> if you don't have an ipv6 supporting provider it's useless anyway.
[13:32] <toad_> what is the point?
[13:32] <Synonymous> There is more overhead with ipv6 that do not justify the benefits yet imho
[13:32] <nextgens> dopeic: me too
[13:32] <nextgens> toad_: no more NAT ;)
[13:32] <nextgens> or hangarounds
[13:32] <dopeic> toad_ well I want to create a secure intnret
[13:32] <dopeic> internet inside the internet
[13:32] <dopeic> =)
[13:32] <toad_> bull
[13:32] <toad_> there will always be NAT
[13:32] <cbreak> with ipv6?
[13:32] <toad_> because it's the only way to protect windows boxes
[13:32] <Synonymous> lol
[13:32] <dopeic> mostly for p2p traffic, but allso web traffic ect...
[13:32] <cbreak> why not create a time machine with tin cans?
[13:33] <nextgens> arf
[13:33] <dopeic> cbreak ipv6 is just a stone that is build on
[13:33] <Synonymous> I agree, its why I use a router and if this were the only computer I'd still use one :)
[13:33] <dopeic> because you can choice the routes with it
[13:33] <cbreak> you can build it on ipv4 equaly well.
[13:33] <toad_> and compared to winning the war on free software, IPv6 is pretty irrelevant
[13:33] <toad_> maybe windows will become more secure
[13:33] <toad_> but people, and ISPs, will still NAT
[13:33] <cbreak> predetermined routes do not help security or anonymity. (unless you know all routers on the path are trusted)
[13:34] <dopeic> toad_ well that dosent mather, so long there is 1 port open to your computer
[13:34] <Synonymous> To win the war on Freesoftware we need someone to come up with a standard linux distribution that people can unite behind, i hope that is GoogleLinux :)
[13:34] <dopeic> you can create a socket to the next nod
[13:34] <toad_> even if they do not change the IP addresses, they will block incoming connections for security reasons
[13:34] <dopeic> and send data and comapnds true that way
[13:34] <Synonymous> I'd try googlelinux
[13:34] <toad_> Synonymous: what's wrong with fedora core 3? or mandrake? or debian? or knoppix? or mepis? or...?
[13:34] <toad_> there are loads of good linux distros
[13:34] <dopeic> well I mean that the private network, abouv internet will work as an internet it self
[13:35] <cbreak> open darwin!
[13:35] <toad_> what's missing is software
[13:35] <toad_> we need every game under the sun to be ported to linux on release
[13:35] <Synonymous> They are old and non standard they each have only a fraction of the Linux Market, but if GoogleLinux could get 50% or more... it would be enough of a standard to attract people
[13:35] <toad_> Synonymous: they are not old. they are not non-standard. and so what?
[13:35] <toad_> they comply on the whole with what standards there are
[13:36] <cbreak> there's a standard for linux?
[13:36] <Synonymous> Non standard means that its a pain in the ass to make sure that a game that works on one works on another, so I'd have to choose a distribution then I'd have to make sure it was right, right enough to justify having to advocate on its behalf to be sure that my friends and relatives software will work on mye and vice versa
[13:36] <toad_> there is the FHS
[13:36] <cbreak> (well... the file structure, the used software, the...)
[13:36] <toad_> and other things
[13:36] <Synonymous> Linux Standard Base is a good idea, although I dont like that particular or ganization
[13:37] <toad_> Synonymous: it really isn't that hard. And as long as you let them redistribute the binary (not the content), the distros will happily repackage it for you.
[13:37] <toad_> the whole thing about standardization is microsoft FUD
[13:37] <Synonymous> That is too much of a pain in the ass, and software companies do not like having to test it on 1000 distributions to make sure it works, thus there is no commerically available *popular* software on Linux in any great amount without a standard
[13:37] <toad_> "having a monopoly is good because you only have to learn about one thing"
[13:37] <Synonymous> Google can create that standard
[13:37] <Synonymous> and not be a monopoloy :)
[13:38] <Synonymous> its up to you to choose to adhere to teh standard
[13:38] <Synonymous> so there is still choice
[13:38] <toad_> they don't have to certify that it works on every linux under the sun
[13:38] <toad_> redhat, mandrake and suse together have something like 80%
[13:38] <toad_> the other distros can repackage it
[13:39] <toad_> as long as they can redistribute the binary installer
[13:39] <Synonymous> Even testing it on 9 popular ones is enough of a pain in the ass that I dont want the headache
[13:39] <toad_> NINE?!
[13:39] <toad_> which 9?
[13:39] <Synonymous> ya you frogot gentoo, linspire etc
[13:39] <toad_> only geeks use gentoo
[13:39] <toad_> forget about gentoo
[13:39] <Synonymous> and ubanobo or whatever
[13:39] <toad_> anyone who uses gentoo is capable of getting stuff working on it
[13:39] <dopeic> Mitokondrie@narq > uname -a
[13:39] <dopeic> Linux Mitokondrie 2.6.11-gentoo-r6
[13:39] <Synonymous> that is supported by the FSF
[13:39] <Synonymous> so its anotehr faction
[13:39] <toad_> ububtu, yes
[13:39] <dopeic> you dont need to be a raket since to get gentoo running :)
[13:40] <toad_> eh?
[13:40] <dopeic> toad_> only geeks use gentoo
[13:40] <toad_> you DO need to be a GEEK to get gentoo running
[13:40] <toad_> it provides no help with config files at all
[13:40] <toad_> unlike debian
[13:40] <Synonymous> Thats another thing, doing research to figure out the right distribution
[13:40] <Synonymous> man taht is a pain in the ass, i hate trying on new clothes let alone trying new software on :)
[13:41] <toad_> well, if you're so keen on monopolies, obviously you'll stick with windows, because it is The One And Only.
[13:41] <toad_> but it's simply not THAT hard
[13:41] <toad_> especially if you liaise with the major distros
[13:41] <Synonymous> A standard isnt a monopoly thats the great part, ppl can choose not to adhere
[13:42] <Synonymous> And since Google isn't evil (so they say) it hopefully will be a standard ppl can agree on, or one that is lease offensive to the greatest number
[13:42] <toad_> "we are going to release XYZ. We will only support it on RedHat and FC3. If you want it to run on your distro, please provide a package to install it. We are sending you a prerelease binary, you can redistribute this after release. Thank you."
[13:42] <toad_> Google is evil
[13:42] <toad_> it is a publicly listed corporation, therefore it is psychopathic almost by definition ;)
[13:42] <Synonymous> They say they are good, we can trust them until they are evil
[13:42] <dopeic> well my defination is, so long it aint opensouce. Its EVIL.
[13:42] <Synonymous> well, yes that is true for corporations
[13:42] <dopeic> opensource even
[13:43] <Synonymous> except corporations that say they arent evil hehe :o)
[13:43] <toad_> lol
[13:43] <Synonymous> hah
[13:43] <dopeic> oh expect NSA the are evil even wath the hell the do (SELinux)
[13:43] <Synonymous> We can judge google if they are being good or not depending on how onerous their standard is, LSB was pretty bad
[13:44] <toad_> onerous?
[13:44] <toad_> onerous is bad? i thought that it being exactly the same was good? that's the whole thrust of your argument!
[13:44] <Synonymous> ya hmmm burdensome
[13:44] <toad_> burdensome is good!
[13:44] <toad_> by your argument
[13:44] <Synonymous> Um no, burdensome is bad :P
[13:44] <toad_> which do you prefer? everyone runs ONE linux, or everyone complies with onerous requirements XYZ? Either way you'll be able to package things very easily.
[13:45] <dopeic> humm btw does i2p allow caching of files, let say like internet temporary files ?
[13:45] <dopeic> like freenet
[13:45] <Synonymous> I dont want to be burdened with having to try numerous distributions and having to enter the linux wars to push my brand just to make sure it increases pouplarity increasing my chances that software will work for it
[13:45] <cbreak> I2P is transport. only.
[13:45] <dopeic> k is there a way to combaine i2p and freenet?
[13:45] <toad_> Synonymous: the closer they are together, the more onerous the requirements are on the distribution, the easier it is to package stuff.
[13:45] <toad_> you don't have to try every linux distro
[13:46] <dopeic> the caching part from freenet into i2p
[13:46] <toad_> you only have to deal with the ones with more than 20% of the market
[13:46] <toad_> as long as you let them redistribute your installer binary, the others can handle it themselves
[13:46] <toad_> especially if they have code to autodetect your DVD!
[13:46] <Synonymous> Hmmm i see your point about the burden of having to conform to a standard, that is an interesting point - but a standard doesnt have to be burdensome or burdensome to the degree that the linux distribution wars are
[13:46] <toad_> which they can have pretty easily with DBUS and HAL and so on
[13:46] <Synonymous> like an open standard
[13:47] <toad_> the best way with debian would probably be to have them make a package, and have something auto-recognize the DVD in the desktop
[13:47] <toad_> and then offer to install it
[13:47] <Synonymous> As well, i think that someone could just copy GoogleLinux and name it Google2Linux and it can still be compliant under the same standard
[13:47] <toad_> likewise with all the free or free-update distros
[13:48] <Synonymous> the standard (or the lowest level) should be easily checkable to see it conforms with no outside body necessarilyi needing to certify
[13:48] <toad_> on the other hand, if you have to pay for updates, you have to produce a package on the disk, or an installer program
[13:48] <toad_> but really you don't need to do anything but port it to ONE distro, and let the community do the rest
[13:48] <toad_> if you want to formally support it, that's different
[13:48] <Synonymous> But it will be commercial software
[13:48] <toad_> but there aren't even unofficial ports of 95%+ of games being produced
[13:48] <Synonymous> Commercial software is hard to be ported
[13:48] <toad_> Synonymous: indeed, and hence you need the CD, and the license key
[13:49] <toad_> Synonymous: you can't port it between architectures without the source, sure
[13:49] <Synonymous> But commercial software is what I like (at least for games) :o)
[13:49] <toad_> but we're not talking about between architectures here
[13:49] <Synonymous> True, but its still hard to get software running and guardenteed to be running on more than one distribution without fiddeling
[13:50] <toad_> you port it to one distro, have a reasonably tolerable level of standardization for library names so the linking works out reasonably, let them redistribute the installer/binary, and your job is done
[13:50] <Synonymous> Sounds easy enough but with the volume of software that would have to be done (if linux were to become dominate) would be too burdensome
[13:50] <toad_> you can even provide semi-official support, if you play your cards right, without much effort, as long as you release a demo before the final version
[13:51] <Synonymous> It can be done *now* with 1% of the market, when it has 50% of the market that system will crumble, and if it doesnt then ppl will complain their software doesnt work out of the box
[13:51] <toad_> Synonymous: that argument is entirely hollow. there's a massive amount of effort required to write one game, we are talking about a single product here.
[13:52] <toad_> Synonymous: people only have the right to complain if they are using a standard distro. if they are using a wierd distro they are referred to their distro's support people. Which IMHO even Debian should have. An 0891 number charging ?0.50/minute would be quite feasible IMHO.
[13:52] <toad_> :)
[13:52] <Synonymous> Hmmm that could be true, although to developf or Linux currently they still have to try to get it working for multiple distributions ontop of the problem of porting it to a Linux(general) to begin with :)
[13:52] <Synonymous> That is true, but there are 9 standards :P
[13:52] <toad_> well, the latter problem is surely the bigger issue at the moment, because so many games don't support openGL
[13:53] <Synonymous> ActiveX?
[13:53] <Synonymous> Ya that will be a problem
[13:53] <toad_> directX
[13:53] <Synonymous> ya thats its name lol
[13:53] <Synonymous> And who wants that its a pain in the ass
[13:53] <Synonymous> and buggy
[13:53] <Synonymous> :)
[13:53] <Synonymous> Thats microsoft's fault
[13:53] <toad_> may not be a problem for long.. if longhorn flops (who am I kidding? the only way to get 64-bit support will be longhorn!), they may use opengl to avoid forcing their users to get longhorn to get dx11
[13:54] <Synonymous> I hope it flops, I wouldnt mind being pushed into Linux but I think I'd just be trading problems of Windows for the same amount of problems, but different, with Linux
[13:54] <toad_> Synonymous: you support one or two distros officially. you get the others to do your work for you.
[13:54] <toad_> well, there are problems, sure, but they are different problems :)
[13:55] <Synonymous> That is true, and they will want to support the biggest distros
[13:55] <Synonymous> to be assured of the bigest market, so it would be in their interst to have a popular distribution, and if google gets popular to the tue of 40% then people will simply make sure it works with theirs, they can be come the defacto standard
[13:55] <dopeic> wasent there going to be some sort of copy-safety implemented in longhorn?
[13:55] <Synonymous> that is probably how it will be done, without even having to drag ppl into a standards process
[13:55] <toad_> as long as the biggest commercial distros are reasonably close together, and as long as you give the minor distros enough to get it done before release if at all possible, and as long as you put out a linux demo (which you will want to do anyway), you'll do fine
[13:55] <dopeic> that was cpu bunded
[13:56] <toad_> dopeic: yes, there are all sorts of horror stories about longhorn
[13:56] <toad_> dopeic: if it works nobody will buy it though ;)
[13:56] <toad_> because they want to be able to pirate stuff
[13:56] <dopeic> yes but are the true ?
[13:56] <Synonymous> Longhorn's screen shots were leaked, they were anticlimatic
[13:56] <toad_> but then that crowd would just pirate longhorn
[13:56] <dopeic> heh yeah
[13:56] <Synonymous> A year late, and its currently WindowsXP bloatware
[13:56] <toad_> we don't know
[13:56] <toad_> NGTCB may or may not go into longhorn
[13:57] <toad_> NGTCB is pretty scary taken to its logical conclusions
[13:57] <toad_> but we will see
[13:57] <Synonymous> what is that
[13:57] <dopeic> NGTCB ?
[13:57] <toad_> TC
[13:57] <toad_> Palladium
[13:57] <dopeic> ohh
[13:57] <toad_> TCPA
[13:57] <toad_> etc etc
[13:57] <Synonymous> Yes
[13:57] <dopeic> palladium rings the bell
[13:57] <dopeic> well I run linux, so long the dont f*ck with the cpus I am happy.
[13:57] <Synonymous> Be ready when Longhorn comes out to do a massive push for Linux when people do not want to upgrade
[13:58] <Synonymous> Right at that momemnt it could tip :)
[13:58] <toad_> Synonymous: IMHO if the games companies do the above, they will do well, and it will work near-perfectly on ANY distro
[13:58] <dopeic> Synonymous naah you need to be able to play games on linux
[13:58] <dopeic> comercial games
[13:58] <toad_> and it won't cost them very much
[13:58] <toad_> also it's not just about games
[13:58] <dopeic> and if someone will find a way todo that, and a simple distro like lindows.
[13:58] <toad_> we need Photoshop and the big publishing apps to be ported too
[13:59] <dopeic> yep
[13:59] <dopeic> there is allways gimp
[13:59] <toad_> GIMP may be better than photoshop in some ways, and will eventually catch up in all areas, but we need people to be able to switch without having to retrain
[13:59] <Synonymous> I agree dopeic, thats why unless a company can be sure that their game will work on a large # of linux distros, it would probably be a headache for them to try to release, thats why they arent bothering (also because its costly to get it running / posix compliant to begin with)
[13:59] <dopeic> the big mass of ppl, runs just photoshop for fun
[13:59] <dopeic> well all source codes get stolen this days
[13:59] <dopeic> so how hard could it be?
[13:59] <dopeic> :)
[13:59] <Synonymous> It would be nice to have that on Linux
[14:00] <toad_> Synonymous: the big problem is not that the games don't work on a wide variety of linuxen, it's that they don't work on ANY variety of linuxen, in general
[14:00] <dopeic> win 98/2000/half life 2/cisco routers sources/ect... :)
[14:00] <toad_> also the expensive publishing software
[14:00] <toad_> which only runs on windows and Mac
[14:00] <Synonymous> Ya, its costly to get it running on linux to begin with
[14:00] <toad_> and therefore could be ported fairly easily
[14:00] <toad_> just like photoshop
[14:00] <toad_> all the modelling stuff has been ported already thanks to hollywood
[14:00] <dopeic> toad_ well that could be fixt, with a simple libary implementation and recompaling of the games
[14:00] <toad_> Dreamweaver is a good example too
[14:00] <dopeic> m$ dont own the game companys.
[14:01] <Synonymous> I think the next fight to win is getting OpenOffice running on schools etc, since it runs on both Linux and Windows the crossover to Linux can occur
[14:01] <Synonymous> Since ppl will be use to it
[14:01] <dopeic> well dream on
[14:01] <dopeic> politicans are stuped
[14:01] <toad_> yeah, there's lots of people using openoffice, and it's getting better (it's still behind in a few areas)
[14:01] <Synonymous> I use openoffice
[14:01] <toad_> dopeic: politicians care about the Bottom Line though
[14:01] <dopeic> the spend BIG money here, when the could use linux.
[14:01] <dopeic> and gues wath the motivation was, its sheaper with windows.
[14:01] <Synonymous> I dont like Word's file format, it is evil and if it screws up no one can help me
[14:02] <toad_> it's fairly promising
[14:02] <dopeic> I thougt my head was going to explode, because of the motivation.
[14:02] <toad_> :)
[14:02] <Synonymous> ;)
[14:02] <toad_> there are always idiots
[14:02] <toad_> but linux is making major inroads in the gov sector
[14:02] <dopeic> idiots? that aint even the word to define them.
[14:02] <dopeic> yeah germany is in a good way to be totaly opensource
[14:02] <Synonymous> Having google team up with walmart to sell a 'standard' computer would be good as well
[14:03] <toad_> i was thinking more of the poor countries
[14:03] <dopeic> well imperalism is already raping them
[14:03] <toad_> where it is a simple choice: Pirate windows, and get caught when you enter the WTO, or use OSS
[14:03] <dopeic> so good luck
[14:03] <Synonymous> Poor countries is a good idea, get them to use linux
[14:03] <toad_> they do
[14:03] <toad_> in gov
[14:03] <toad_> outside gov they just pirate windows
[14:03] <Synonymous> Then when 90% of the world (except for North America, some of Europe) uses Linux that will be that :P
[14:03] <greycat> most legitimate businesses in the US don't pirate Microsoft.
[14:04] <dopeic> greycat well thats beceause of publicity reasons
[14:04] <toad_> okay, home users pirate windows, in poor countries, and often in rich countries too
[14:04] <dopeic> the would get there ass wipt if the do
[14:04] <greycat> toad_: yes.
[14:04] <Synonymous> Ya I pirate windows
[14:04] <Synonymous> on one box
[14:04] <Synonymous> :P
[14:04] <toad_> small biz users in poor countries probably pirate windows a lot more than in rich ones
[14:04] <dopeic> I dont even want to sese m$ crap in my house
[14:04] <dopeic> see even
[14:05] <Synonymous> You dnot use windows at all?
[14:05] <dopeic> well this is world economy
[14:05] <Synonymous> I cant do withotu my games...
[14:05] <dopeic> its nothing you or I can affect on.
[14:05] <dopeic> naah
[14:05] <dopeic> I got a ps2
[14:05] <Synonymous> :)
[14:05] <dopeic> but i dont even play games this days anymore
[14:05] <Synonymous> A lot of emulators are only for windows
[14:05] <dopeic> code is more intressting
[14:06] <dopeic> emulators should be easy to port over to linux
[14:06] <Synonymous> Yes, actually I think that is what is happening a lot of software is being either developed to compete with Windows versions (GIMP etc) or being ported over to include Windows (Cgwin etc ports) to build teh foundation
[14:07] <toad_> i play games
[14:07] <toad_> and they're normally windows games running under linux via cedega
[14:07] <Synonymous> i'll ahve to look taht up
[14:07] <toad_> it costs real money
[14:07] <toad_> but runs lots of windows games
[14:07] <dopeic> Girls are more fun then games :)
[14:07] <Synonymous> Ah WineX
[14:07] <toad_> http://www.transgaming.com/
[14:07] <toad_> $5/mo
[14:07] <Elly> man
[14:07] <toad_> wine actually runs a fair bit
[14:07] <Elly> it's simply astonishing how stupid congress is sometimes
[14:08] <toad_> even games
[14:08] <Synonymous> Why $5 a month
[14:08] <Synonymous> i thought it was software
[14:08] <toad_> but it's so unstable from version to version
[14:08] <toad_> Synonymous: subscription
[14:08] <toad_> you get updates
[14:08] <Synonymous> kool
[14:08] <toad_> and you get to vote on what games you want supported
[14:08] <toad_> in the next version
[14:08] <Synonymous> do you have to pay for the next version?
[14:08] <toad_> and you get tech support
[14:08] <toad_> no
[14:08] <Synonymous> kool
[14:09] <Synonymous> Its closed source though :(
[14:09] <toad_> i haven't used the tech support recently though
[14:09] <toad_> it used to be good
[14:09] <toad_> yes, it's closed source
[14:09] <toad_> so is the game you're running
[14:09] <Synonymous> ya lol
[14:09] <toad_> but it means it can't be bundled with free linux distros
[14:09] <toad_> we need the core wine to be better too
[14:09] <Synonymous> Yes, once ppl are used to running games on Linux Wine will get interest as well
[14:09] <Elly> toad_: Are you familiar with S-1623?
[14:10] <Elly> and the whole copyright mess in general?
[14:10] <toad_> no idea S-1623
[14:10] <toad_> familiar with the whole mess in general
[14:11] <toad_> as you can gather from this conversation
[14:11] <Elly> S-1623 was the proposed tax on digital media
[14:11] <Elly> ALL digital media
[14:11] <toad_> ahhh
[14:11] <toad_> :)
[14:12] <toad_> we need to develop free content that isn't software
[14:12] <Elly> "The RIAA's position here assumes that, given the opportunity to use an illegal copy of something, any american would do so. If that were true, Microsoft would be an empty shell instead of a multibillion-dollar industry."
[14:12] <toad_> games, music, etc
[14:12] <toad_> Elly: maybe
[14:12] <toad_> a lot of people do pirate MS products
[14:12] <Elly> yes
[14:12] <toad_> but on the other hand a lot of people don't
[14:12] <Elly> but that doesn't mean MS is dirt-poor
[14:12] <toad_> medium+ sized businesses on the whole can't take the risk
[14:13] <Elly> pirating their products isn't even _difficult_
[14:13] <Elly> the majority of home users are using Windows
[14:13] <toad_> it buys them mindshare
[14:13] <toad_> MS needs people to run Windows more than they need people to PAY for windows
[14:13] <toad_> piracy guarantees their monopoly
[14:13] <toad_> this is why it is immoral to pirate MS products :)
[14:13] <toad_> well this is one of several reasons
[14:13] <toad_> but it's the most persuasive to geeks probably
[14:13] <toad_> now
[14:14] <toad_> i need to get on with some work
[14:14] <toad_> i will be back in a bit and then i will be working
[14:14] <toad_> my views on the Copyright War are well known
[14:14] <dopeic> heh you heard of the bahnolf raid?
[14:15] <toad_> hmm?
[14:15] <Elly> there are free games out there but they just don't compete
[14:15] <dopeic> well there was a BIG topsite busted by an intresst organization, and the infeltraded it with wath some could call mafia methods
[14:15] <dopeic> so the copyrgith war have gone totaly fubar here
[14:15] <Elly> I mean, if you're a super game coder
[14:16] <dopeic> this is why anonymouse on internet is inportent :)
[14:16] <Elly> you can either a) give your software away for free or b) make $lots selling it
[14:16] <dopeic> so big coperations can suck there balls
[14:16] <Elly> heh, anonymouse =D
[14:16] <toad_> yeah but there are ways to fun free content
[14:16] <dopeic> toad_ ?
[14:16] <Elly> and the fact of the matter is
[14:16] <toad_> thats the only way to be long term sustainable
[14:16] <Elly> making a game which is a hit
[14:16] <Elly> involves doing stuff that programmers just don't enjoy
[14:17] <dopeic> well look at this point of view
[14:17] <toad_> making a game that is a hit involves ARTWORK
[14:17] <toad_> artists are the problem
[14:17] <dopeic> piracy, force software devolepers to go into opensource
[14:17] <toad_> but most of all money is the problem
[14:17] <dopeic> because it cost cash, write code
[14:17] <dopeic> and most of the code that is writen, is monkey kode.
[14:17] <dopeic> code even
[14:18] <toad_> no it's not about piracy
[14:18] <Elly> marketing is the problem
[14:18] <toad_> piracy is universally bad
[14:18] <toad_> as i have explained
[14:18] <Elly> you have to literally buy shelf space at stores
[14:18] <dopeic> toad_ yeah so long big coperations get there fonding from us, the war is going to go on.
[14:18] <dopeic> toad_ No its not, it helps the devolepment of software.
[14:18] <dopeic> so how can it be bad?
[14:18] <Elly> *blink*
[14:18] <Elly> how does it do that?
[14:18] <toad_> dopeic: it DOESN'T help the development of software
[14:18] <toad_> it ruins everyone
[14:18] <toad_> including open source
[14:19] <toad_> it undermines our price advantage and therefore emphasizes their no-retraining advantage
[14:19] <dopeic> no you got it twisted
[14:19] <Elly> dopeic: If people were taking GPL code and incorporating it into commercial software, would you say it was a good thing?
[14:19] <dopeic> pleas dont write, before I am finish and I will explane.
[14:19] <dopeic> lots of the software that is writen, is used by simple soultions.
[14:19] <dopeic> and the are pantented, (USA) but not yet in europe.
[14:20] <Elly> we're not talking about patents
[14:20] <Elly> we're talking about piracy
[14:20] <toad_> will be soon in europe unless we stop it
[14:20] <dopeic> if those all would be free, the writing should be lot easyr.
[14:20] <Elly> making illegal copies of software
[14:20] <toad_> okay i'll let you two fight this out
[14:20] * toad_ minimizes the chat client
[14:20] <Elly> heh
[14:20] <dopeic> when coperations dont get cash for there software monkey kode
[14:20] <dopeic> code even
[14:20] * Elly stabs toad_
[14:20] <toad_> will survey the wreckage afterwards
[14:20] <dopeic> the will be force to use simple methods, like share code
[14:20] <dopeic> that is already writen
[14:20] <dopeic> (open source)
[14:21] <dopeic> and bether code will be generated by time
[14:21] <dopeic> and smarter soultions
[14:21] <dopeic> aka the devolepment of software is taken place.
[14:21] <dopeic> and is going forwards
[14:21] <dopeic> instat of know, lots and lots of monkey code.
[14:21] <dopeic> that you and I pay for.
[14:21] <Elly> We're not even talking about the same thing
[14:22] <Elly> I'm talking about if someone takes a copy of Microsoft Office and makes a copy of the disk, then sells the copy
[14:22] <dopeic> yes we are, piratey force companys to look into other solutions.
[14:22] <dopeic> ohh heh
[14:22] <Elly> not if someone looks at Office and says "Hey, neat mouse shadowing, I think I'll code that too"
[14:22] <dopeic> thougt you where in to piracy discussion :)
[14:22] <Elly> we are
[14:22] <Elly> that's what piracy is
[14:22] <Elly> selling illegal copies of software
[14:22] <dopeic> piracy is sharing
[14:23] <dopeic> humm seling illegal copies is a difrent issue
[14:23] <dopeic> and there aint meany ppl that do it this days
[14:23] <dopeic> because anyone can download there own copy of it
[14:23] <dopeic> selling was popular like 98-00
[14:23] <dopeic> :)
[14:23] <Elly> yeah, there are people that do it
[14:23] <dopeic> that was ages ago
[14:23] <Elly> go to Hong Kong
[14:23] <Elly> heh
[14:23] <dopeic> well hongkong is hongkong
[14:23] <Elly> less than 10% of the world has broadband, dude
[14:24] <Elly> most people can't download a whole game yet
[14:24] <dopeic> I will never understand why the buy copys there, because of the HIGH SPEED broadband the got.
[14:24] <dopeic> humm have you lookt at the peering list for the national ixp in hongkong
[14:24] <dopeic> 10gbit slots all over the table
[14:24] <dopeic> and not 1 or 2, its like 6 -8 slots per isp
[14:24] <dopeic> :)
[14:24] <Elly> have you looked at the internet access in rural china and india and the midwestern US
[14:25] <Elly> because most of the people in the world do not have access to broadband
[14:25] <dopeic> well that is a side effect that the sell pirate software there
[14:25] <Elly> people in china come to hong kong to buy pirated stuff, that's why the industry is so big there
[14:25] <dopeic> but wath can you do?
[14:25] <dopeic> thats how the world works
[14:25] <dopeic> And its bether the get a check, then m$.
[14:27] <dopeic> you need to ask you self, do you want to give food on the table for monkey coders
[14:27] <dopeic> and big checks to the coperations.
[14:27] <dopeic> or do you want software devolement go forward in grater speed?
[14:28] <Elly> the big corporation paid to write the software
[14:28] <dopeic> yes, but there is a overflow of the cash.
[14:28] <dopeic> and coperations want to class there source code as there own privat "intelegt"
[14:28] <dopeic> wish is bullshit
[14:28] <dopeic> wath is even
[14:28] <Elly> that's up to them
[14:28] <dopeic> you cant own a thougt, you cant own a ide.
[14:29] <Elly> they made it, they can do whatever they want with it
[14:29] <Elly> no, but you can own the source code
[14:29] <Elly> which you made
[14:29] <dopeic> well lets say, i got an ide how freenet can work
[14:29] <dopeic> but you cant program it
[14:29] <dopeic> because its my ide
[14:29] <dopeic> if you do I sue you
[14:29] <dopeic> does that sound reasonable?
[14:29] <toad_> a lot of people in parts of urban england don't have broadband
[14:29] <toad_> or even narrowband
[14:29] <toad_> they have a mobile phone line but no internet access whatsoever
[14:29] <dopeic> toad_ well the live in the ston-age
[14:30] <toad_> and no computer
[14:30] <dopeic> to bad for them :)
[14:30] <dopeic> we got 3g here (video mobile phones)
[14:30] <dopeic> and the are going to get that in usa, in 2009.
[14:30] <toad_> well, bristolwireless.net (local group i have some connection to) are building an 802.11x based network
[14:30] <toad_> and giving out free PCs
[14:30] <toad_> with training
[14:30] <Elly> dopeio
[14:31] <toad_> and internet access hopefully
[14:31] <Elly> I'm not talking about ideas here
[14:31] <toad_> technically 128k is broadband :)
[14:31] <Elly> I'm talking about the source code which implements the idea
[14:31] <dopeic> Elly Ides, and source code are pritty mutch the same
[14:31] <toad_> we propose to offer this free for a year along with training and a computer
[14:31] <dopeic> ides how to solve problems
[14:31] <Elly> no they arne't
[14:31] <toad_> dopeic: software patents are bad. full stop. we're all in agreement on that point, right?
[14:31] <Elly> this is an idea: "Let's make an integrated office suite which lets you use parts from one app in another app!"
[14:31] <Elly> that's the idea behind MS office
[14:32] <dopeic> toad_ agreed and that is one of my basic points.
[14:32] <Elly> the source code to MS office is millions of lines
[14:32] <Elly> and is the *expression* of that idea
[14:32] <dopeic> Elly yeah but if I want to use some ides from the ms office and openoffice
[14:32] <dopeic> and compine them
[14:32] <toad_> dopeic: well, i like copyright, though it ought to have a shorter term. it provides a level playing field whereby OSS can compete (with the GPL) as a single entity for copyright-hording purposes.
[14:32] <dopeic> and mix with my own ides, to make it bether.
[14:32] <Elly> if Picasso says, "I'm going to make a great painting", it doesn't mean nobody else can make a great painting too, but it DOES mean that nobody else can copy his painting
[14:32] <dopeic> then I need to code evrything my self
[14:32] <dopeic> get the point?
[14:33] <Elly> dopeic: You are still talking about software patents
[14:33] <Elly> and I am still talking about copyrights
[14:33] <toad_> dopeic: you have to do that anyway. while decompilation is possible, it generally takes longer to reverse engineer than to write it yourself.
[14:33] <dopeic> should a company then charge for all the hours I need to make it
[14:33] <dopeic> or I as a costumer pay for the ides just
[14:33] <dopeic> the stuff that is new
[14:33] <toad_> you don't need to pay for the ideas at all because they are covered by patents not copyright
[14:33] <toad_> and software patents are bad
[14:33] <dopeic> and not the re-generatated code from m$ and open office
[14:33] <toad_> anyway bbl
[14:34] * Elly is afk; coding
[14:34] <dopeic> well my point is, it cost lots of cash to re-generate code that has already been writen
[14:34] <dopeic> and to charge for that
[14:34] <dopeic> is just stuped
[14:34] <Elly> and by afk I mean abandoning this discussion
[14:34] <dopeic> thats where piracy comes in
[14:35] <dopeic> the force the market to re-think
[14:35] <dopeic> k
[14:35] <dopeic> just wanted the last word :)
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[18:33] <rgm> sup paranoid activists.
[18:33] <rah> how do I reset my routing table?
[18:38] <rgm> I've been using Tor lately, and it's a pretty neat project. Of particular interest are "hidden" services, which allow you to provide a TCP based service (website, ssh, ftp, whatever) anonymously.
[18:38] <rgm> urls are like http://6sxoyfb3h2nvok2d.onion/
[18:39] <toad_> like i2p
[18:39] <rgm> that's the url for the hidden wiki. accessible anonymously, provided anonymously. network subject to traffic analysis if a majority of endpoint nodes are compromised, but it's a good system.
[18:39] <rgm> well, i dunno if i2p is an implementation of onion routing
[18:40] <toad_> it is
[18:40] <rah> I don't seem to be able to get FIND
[18:40] <toad_> Tor is centralized
[18:40] <dystopia> onion routing makes me fart
[18:40] <rgm> hmm?
[18:40] * rah pokes toad_
[18:40] <rah> what should I do?
[18:40] <rgm> not really. anyone can run a tor server
[18:40] <rgm> it's true that content isn't cached like in freenet
[18:40] <toad_> well that's what i heard from a reliable source
[18:40] <rah> rgm: what he means is, anyone can run a tor server :)
[18:40] <rgm> if a tor server providing content goes down, that content is unavailable
[18:40] <toad_> Tor is centralized just like the mixnet routers
[18:40] <toad_> err mixmaster etc
[18:40] <toad_> email
[18:41] <toad_> each client knows all the Tor servers, so there are very few of them
[18:41] <rah> toad_: can you get FIND?
[18:41] <toad_> it's centralized and not really scalable
[18:41] <rgm> nah, each client knows a few entry points
[18:41] <toad_> but perhaps i'm completely wrong about that
[18:41] <toad_> rgm: each client must know a significant number of nodes to have onion routing work
[18:42] <toad_> maybe not thousands
[18:42] <toad_> but enough for a good anonymity set
[18:42] <toad_> rah: it's been down for ages
[18:42] <rgm> also, EFF says they've got about 100 servers, and 1000 clients (i'm a client). I get really good throughput. been using it to browse all week.
[18:42] <rah> toad_ :(
[18:42] <rgm> toad_: each client only knows a handful. that next link knows a few more, etc.
[18:42] <toad_> rgm: onion routing is based on "premix routing"
[18:42] <toad_> it is source routed
[18:43] <toad_> the client MUST know a largish number of nodes
[18:43] <toad_> it may not be directly connected to them
[18:43] <toad_> but it needs to know their identities
[18:43] <toad_> and their connections, if connections are constrained
[18:43] * toad_ ought to read up on tor, constrained-connections mixnets have come up in relation to freenet...
[18:43] <toad_> s/identities/public keys
[18:45] <rgm> tech details and general overview at http://tor.eff.org/howitworks.html
[18:47] <rgm> no mixing, says the tech doc
[18:47] <toad_> no mixing?
[18:47] <toad_> what do they define mixing as?
[18:47] <rgm> well, i'm not gonna paste the whole thing.
[18:48] <toad_> how can they claim any anonymity whatsoever (beyond the crowds/freenet level) if they don't do mixnet-style routing? i thought onion routing was a kind of mixmaster routing anyway?
[18:48] <toad_> well if you don't want to talk, i'll get around to reading it sometime
[18:48] <rgm> they're light on the mixing section
[18:49] <rgm> ah.
[18:49] <rgm> i see what you mean
[18:49] <rgm> the list of Tor nodes is stored on a directory server
[18:49] <rgm> which clients consult
[18:49] <toad_> right
[18:49] <toad_> it's centralized and non-scalable
[18:49] <rgm> of course, this directory server can be provided anonymously
[18:50] <toad_> if the directory server is anonymous it is still centralized
[18:50] * rgm nods
[18:50] <toad_> you have to distribute THAT and make that work in a hazardous environment
[18:50] <toad_> size matters, but it matters more if you have internal sites
[18:50] <rgm> seems to scale pretty well though. I mean, latency's good, and throughput too.
[18:51] <rgm> i'm not a server b/c I can't dedicate 20k/s upstream
[18:51] <toad_> if you want to talk to People Who Know, go to #i2p and talk to them - especially jrandom
[18:51] <toad_> 1000 clients doesn't tell you anything about scaling
[18:51] <rgm> so install it and make it 1001 :)
[18:51] <toad_> and i2p is pretty good
[18:51] <rgm> i've never been on i2p. No real need I guess.
[18:51] <toad_> and freenet has been known to get good throughput
[18:52] <rgm> it's kind of fun to be surfing around the internet with a japanese IP address.
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[18:52] <toad_> well, i2p's authors think it's better than Tor. And I agree with them though I don't know a lot about Tor.
[18:53] <toad_> also any network with the client/server dichotomy is going to have problems long-term
[18:53] <toad_> you need a network of semi-homogenous nodes
[18:53] <toad_> LOTS of them
[18:54] <toad_> what's the moral basis for running proxies? i get paid to work on freenet but i'm not sure i'd run an outproxy, because it would in all likelihood fetch child porn unencrypted over HTTP
[18:55] <toad_> freenet keeps everything internal within the network
[18:55] <rgm> yeah, the end-node fetches content from regular servers (unencrypted)
[18:56] <rgm> the transport of that content is encrypted to the requesting client though
[18:56] <toad_> does the client know the end-node?
[18:56] <rgm> nope
[18:56] <rgm> just the entry node into the network
[18:56] <rgm> doesn't know how many links in the chain either
[18:56] <toad_> suppose they can't really hide it though - there's loads of ways to find your IP via HTTP :)
[18:57] <toad_> rgm: then how does it provide any plausible anonymity?
[18:57] <toad_> is it just the crowds principle?
[18:57] <rgm> there's a legal mumbo jumbo doc the eff wrote to address taht
[18:57] <toad_> "it could have been from another node"
[18:57] <rgm> you can't prove what content is moving where within the network
[18:57] <rgm> unless you can do distributed traffic analysis
[18:57] <toad_> so it's just crowds?
[18:57] <toad_> no premix is bad
[18:57] <rgm> hmm?
[18:57] <toad_> you can do correlation attacks and all sorts
[18:58] <toad_> no mixing is bad sorry
[18:58] <rgm> the picture makes it pretty clear, just look at the screenshots
[18:58] <rgm> http://tor.eff.org/overview.html
[18:58] <toad_> premix is freenet jargon for "premix routing", which is a way of bolting on mixnet to freenet to improve anonymity
[18:58] <toad_> well i don't see why it's more secure than freenet that's all, and oskar constantly tells anyone who'll listen that freenet is insecure
[18:59] <toad_> because it only provides crowds level anonymity and therefore correlation attacks are feasible, and certainly you know a good deal from a given request
[18:59] <toad_> bbl
[18:59] * toad_ going for walk
[18:59] <rgm> i never said it's more secure. it's probably not. it's just more convenient if you want to browse regular websites anonymously, or provide a hidden wiki or something.
[19:00] <rgm> the requests aren't readable
[19:00] <rgm> i mean, it's all encrypted, except at the end. you'd have to monitor lots of entry points and lots of exit points to do correlation
[19:00] <rgm> Anyway
[19:00] <rgm> i'm not here to compare, I just thought you guys might be interested in checking it out.
[19:01] <rgm> The other thing, i'm sure it's come up before:
[19:01] <rgm> http://freshmeat.net/articles/view/1440/
[19:01] <rgm> Kenosis
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[19:17] <rgm> there we go. I'm chatting anonymously!
[19:18] <rgm> not really, since all my IRC info is the same. but if you didn't know better, you wouldn't be able to determine my IP.
[19:20] <Elly> ooh, .tor
[19:20] <Elly> clever
[19:20] <Elly> [18:21] * [rgm] (bmbxjo@d-65-175-163-232.metrocast.net): nkjbnkuwn4
[19:20] <Elly> [18:21] * [rgm] irc.freenode.net :Fri May 6 22:14:05 2005
[19:20] <Elly> [18:21] * rgm :End of WHOWAS
[19:20] <Elly> ^ not so clever
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[20:36] <rgm> well, yeah. i just said "if you didn't know better"
[20:36] <rgm> like, from before.
[20:36] <rgm> and i pointed out that my irc info was the same.
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.