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[3:01] <gvdm> hi i just emerged freenet and started, how do i put something on freenet?
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[3:20] <gvdm> where can i check freenet logs when installed by the gentoo ebuilds?
[3:42] <gvdm> hmm when i try to start freenet it doesnt start
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[4:06] <gvdm> hmm this stuff isnt working
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[6:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o toad_
[6:47] <toad_> what's a good IDS? I just want something to automatically block the worms that I get that try a dictionary attack on SSHd?
[6:48] <toad_> Activating 5119
[6:49] <toad_> Nodes active: 5120
[6:49] <toad_> Keeping 17066 keys
[6:49] <toad_> Cycle 5021: Average path length: 4.805325501713167, Success probability: 0.99755
[6:49] <toad_> 859375, inserts: 1.0
[6:49] <toad_> Load: max: 4176, min: 2, avg: 58
[6:49] <toad_> Stores: max: 10, min: 10, avg: 10.0
[6:49] <toad_> hmmm
[6:49] * toad_ deeply skeptical...
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[7:47] <toad_> argh, there are no cheap singles left for edinburgh on 1st july
[7:49] <hobx_> take a coach
[7:50] <toad_> 10 hours by coach sounds unpleasant
[7:51] <toad_> anyway it's ?55 just by coach
[7:52] <hobx_> well, you get what you pay for.
[7:52] <toad_> ?110 by train, ?54ish by train via london
[7:52] <toad_> so probably i'll go via london
[7:52] <toad_> i'm thinking of combining it with seeing some relatives in yorkshire...
[7:53] <hobx_> me finds it a little strange that you are planning a trip of that length this far ahead.
[7:54] <toad_> why?
[7:54] <hobx_> It is the same distance as to Stockholm from here, and I just decided yesterday that I'm going there on thursday. I'll look for tickets a few hours before leaving...
[7:54] <toad_> and they'll cost hundreds of euros
[7:54] <toad_> british train tickets are wierd. if you book well in advance and you're lucky you can save 80%+
[7:55] <hobx_> but who wants to plan their life months ahead of time.
[7:55] <toad_> if it had been on 2 june instead of 2 july, i'd have been able to go to edinburgh for ?35 (two singles)
[7:55] <hobx_> Last time _I_ went to Edinburugh I decided about three weeks before leaving.
[7:56] <toad_> i have gone on flights when i have decided 6 days in advance
[7:56] <toad_> it was a total cock-up and ended up costing several times what it initially appeared it would
[7:57] <hobx_> I've gone on flights I decided hours before leaving and had everything work fine.
[7:57] <hobx_> Standby flying is usually cheaper than regular tickets bought months ahead.
[7:58] <toad_> good for you. bristol airport doesn't let you book less than a week in advance. i had to go via stansted on ryanair to brussels charleroi (which is not actually in or anywhere near brussels)
[7:58] <hobx_> I think it is the airline, not the airport, that decides when you can book.
[7:58] <hobx_> Couldn't you take a coach to Belgium as well?
[7:59] <toad_> hmm?
[7:59] <hobx_> I heard they dug a tunnel...
[8:00] <toad_> i know you can drive to belgium via the chunnel
[8:00] <toad_> i don't know if they take coaches... probably
[8:00] <toad_> they have to load the vehicles onto the train to do that
[8:00] <hobx_> Well, you probably get on a new bus at the other end.
[8:00] <toad_> they're not stupid enough to let actual traffic through it, fortunately
[8:03] <hobx_> me just thinks that Toad could do to become a little more cosmopolitan.
[8:03] <hobx_> Traveling isn
[8:03] <hobx_> t a big deal.
[8:03] <toad_> okay, i probably am booking too early... i'll try next week (I think there is some problem with the cheap-advance-tickets... i can't find _ANY_, presumably they haven't been loaded onto the system yet)
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[8:08] <toad_> hobx_: travelling is expensive. it is possible to travel both cheaply and comfortably if you book at the right time.
[8:10] <hobx_> Travelling isn't expensive. It used to be, but I can go anywhere in Europe for a pittance, and anywhere in the world for less than a workers income.
[8:11] <hobx_> Staying where you go is usually far more expensive than the trip. If you go partying with Ian and Janie in Edinburgh you'll blow that ?55 in the first evening...
[8:11] <toad_> hobx_: let me rephrase that. travelling within or from the UK is expensive. the fastest option by train to edinburgh that i can book now is ?110 return.
[8:12] <hobx_> And freedom is the true comfort.
[8:12] <toad_> the cheapest, slower option is ?55 return
[8:12] <hobx_> How far is it?
[8:12] * toad_ won't tell hobx_ why he is going to edinburgh; he wouldn't approve
[8:12] <hobx_> Scientology meeting?
[8:12] <hobx_> British Socialist Party?
[8:13] <toad_> 500 miles or thereabouts... you can do it in 6 hours by train, 10 hours by coach, quicker by plane probably (but more expensive)
[8:13] * hobx_ thinks ?55 is very cheap for 500 miles.
[8:14] <hobx_> Stockholm is 300 miles and the cheapest I could get a return is around the same.
[8:14] <toad_> well yeah, from a historical perspective
[8:14] <toad_> however I expected to do it for ?35 :)
[8:14] <hobx_> same with copenhagen.
[8:14] * hobx_ thinks toad should get a real job.
[8:14] <toad_> because I thought it was in june, and booked for the second of june, and it was ?35
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[8:15] <hobx_> 2 July is vacation time. Trips go up in price.
[8:15] <toad_> maybe, but i'd want to travel reasonably cheaply even if i did have more income
[8:15] <hobx_> ?55 for 500 miles is reasonably cheaply!
[8:16] <hobx_> so what are you going for?
[8:16] <hobx_> British Man Boy Love Association?
[8:16] <toad_> i can probably do it for ?2 return from london actually
[8:16] <toad_> but it'd be a bus
[8:16] <toad_> as opposed to a coach
[8:17] <hobx_> You mean ?20?
[8:17] <toad_> no, i mean ?2
[8:17] <toad_> http://www.megabus.com/
[8:17] <hobx_> It costs ?2 to take the tube from one side of London to the other...
[8:17] <toad_> they don't book that far in advance, but if it was on 14/15 may, i could do it for ?2 at an uncivilised time, and ?6 at a more civilised time... from london
[8:18] <hobx_> So traveling actually isn't expensive at all.
[8:18] <hobx_> It is ridiculously cheap.
[8:18] <toad_> if you don't mind going by a double decker ex-london bus, yeah
[8:19] <hobx_> I'm not really into the whole comfort travel thing. The important thing is getting where you want to go.
[8:19] <hobx_> If I wanted comfort I could stay in bed.
[8:22] <hobx_> Ok, so I know what you are going to.
[8:22] <hobx_> For what it is worth, you are taking part in Murder.
[8:22] <toad_> hmm?
[8:24] <toad_> please explain murder? who am i murdering?
[8:24] <cbreak> what? who is murdering whom?
[8:24] <hobx_> The same people you claim you are trying to help.
[8:24] <cbreak> toad killed ian?
[8:25] <hobx_> Because you end up getting stupid socialist, populist concessions from the leaders which hurts development, economic growth, and the only real hope we have of ending poverty.
[8:25] <toad_> all hands, brace for explosion caused by randroid and christian in the same irc channel!
[8:26] * toad_ wonders if the best thing is simply to /ignore hobx_... you were telling me last time that the "fair trade" mark is evil
[8:26] <toad_> a position that only a randroid would entertain... you know that the irish potato famine was GREATLY exacerbated by policies such as those you propound?
[8:27] <hobx_> oh bullshit. Ian tell you that?
[8:27] <toad_> they were exporting food during the famine, but to stop exporting food and actually sell it (cheaper than they could get if they exported it) or even give it to the farmers whose land was kaput, would be to mess up the market
[8:27] <toad_> it would have saved a million lives, but it was wrong because it would have messed up the market
[8:27] <hobx_> Your positions are once that only evil satanist childmurdering people who hit puppies for fun would entertain.
[8:27] <toad_> ian, and simon schama
[8:27] <hobx_> ^^^ Very good way of debating
[8:28] <toad_> i apologize that i am not an academic historian who can quote more respectable figures
[8:29] <hobx_> You don't need to apologize. But I think you should consider looking up all the facts before you base your whole worldview on something.
[8:29] <toad_> the same thing happens today in lots of places
[8:29] <hobx_> Anyways, I had this debate with Ian, and I did look it all up at the time.
[8:30] <toad_> i'm sure you can still find people who say the black death didn't happen and that adolf hitler was a kind and caring soul
[8:30] <toad_> on the web
[8:30] <toad_> that doesn't mean it's true
[8:30] <hobx_> Like expected it turned out that the causes were a lot more complicated then one would expect, that they were mostly political, and that "the market caused it" had little or no support in fact.
[8:31] <toad_> no, the market didn't cause it. the political ideology that we must not interfere with the market greatly exacerbated it.
[8:31] <hobx_> I mean: Like expected it turned out that the causes were a lot more complicated then demagogues would have it.
[8:31] <toad_> you deny that they were exporting food in the middle of famine?
[8:31] <hobx_> I don't remember the whole story, so I don't deny or claim anything.
[8:31] <toad_> you can always complicate stuff with detail
[8:32] <toad_> but the fact is, like almost every other major famine in recent times, there was plenty of food
[8:32] <toad_> and it was sold externally to make the few rich and preserve the market
[8:32] <toad_> rather than being distributed to the farmers who had no food and no money and increasingly had to sell their lands and everything else
[8:33] <toad_> proverbs - "the field of the poor may yield a rich harvest, but injustice sweeps it away"
[8:33] <hobx_> "you can always complicate stuff with detail".... "Fact suck. Anything remotely true can be proved using facts."
[8:33] <toad_> the underlying cause of nearly all famine is injustice, not biological
[8:34] <hobx_> You are right. Like the evil market that caused the famines after Stalin's purges, or Mao's great leap forward, or in North Korea today.
[8:34] <toad_> hobx: just because there are OTHER facts, does NOT invalidate this one key fact, which is that there was a lot of perfectly edible food being exported from Ireland. if it had been sold internally, many would have survived who didn't. but it would have fetched a lower price.
[8:34] <toad_> hobx_: it's not always caused by The Market. e.g. zimbabwe. but often it is.
[8:35] <toad_> sorry, I should give it its correct name... The Holy and Divine Market
[8:35] <hobx_> That is an infantile argument. It is pointful as pointing out there is enough food today in the world, and people still starve. You might as well point out that we would all be happy if we could all just be nice to one another.
[8:35] <toad_> The Sovereign and Holy Market That Will Solve All Problems If It Is Just Left Alone
[8:36] <hobx_> Market == freedom
[8:36] <toad_> hobx_: aha, so we get to the core of it. Which is that your morality is based on the idea that we should all be as selfish as possible and it'll all work out in the end.
[8:36] <hobx_> A market is what happens when people get to live freely together as equals in a just society.
[8:37] <cbreak> A market is what happens if people with power can use their power as they please.
[8:37] <hobx_> toad_: Close. The morality is that every man has a right to live his life for himself.
[8:37] <toad_> hobx_: so your view is that it is wrong for the government to steal food from the few to save the lives of the many?
[8:37] <toad_> hobx_: because property is more important than life?
[8:38] <hobx_> toad_: Yes. And when government starts plundering, they end up doing more harm then good.
[8:38] <toad_> hobx_: don't you think the government has a role in preventing the market becoming degenerate? there are a zillion examples of monopolies and cartels
[8:38] <hobx_> No I don't. Your zillions of examples are _caused_ by government regulation.
[8:38] <toad_> for example: Microsoft used to give a huge discount to PC makers who only ship Microsoft Windows with all their PCs
[8:39] <hobx_> Microsoft's monopoly is government granted.
[8:39] <cbreak> ?
[8:39] <toad_> the result of this is that unless you know you will have 30%+ of your PCs sold with OS/2 or linux on, you won't ship either on ANY of your PCs
[8:39] <toad_> this is seriously anti-competitive
[8:40] <toad_> hobx_: there are physical examples
[8:40] <toad_> hobx_: there was a big oil monopoly broken up in the first half of the twentieth century
[8:40] <hobx_> It is anti-competitive. It is very competitive.
[8:40] <hobx_> If you were playing football, would you say it was "anti-competitive" not to let your opponents score?
[8:41] <toad_> hobx_: it is a means of leveraging your monopoly in order to exclude competition
[8:41] <toad_> from gaining a foothold
[8:41] <hobx_> In fact though, that is a contradiction.
[8:41] <hobx_> If you have a monopoly, there is no competition.
[8:41] <toad_> no, M$ can compete on price, they can compete on functionality
[8:41] <toad_> what they can't do is exclude possible competitors via dirty tricks such as the above
[8:42] <hobx_> says you. I think when somebody wants to sell something, and somebody wants to buy something, it is not my thing to tell them what they can and cannot sell.
[8:42] <toad_> in a healthy market, companies compete on price, functionality, and service
[8:42] <toad_> they do not compete on dirty tricks
[8:43] <hobx_> You define "dirty trick" completely arbitrarily as "that which I don't like"
[8:43] <toad_> hobx: that is an axiom, and there is little point debating it. it is an god to which you sacrifice your life. i serve a different god. and there is little point us debating it since we have entirely different worldviews.
[8:43] <hobx_> I mean, is selling things cheaper in ten packs a "dirty trick"?
[8:43] <toad_> no
[8:43] <cbreak> (I once tried to play football by taking the ball with my hands. This wasn't allowed it seems...:)
[8:43] <toad_> selling things cheaper in quantity is not a dirty trick
[8:43] <hobx_> I mean, they are giving me a rebate for not choosing the competitor next time.
[8:43] <toad_> what is a dirty trick is making your customers sign a contract saying "I will not sell any computers with other operating systems", and then giving them a big discount for it.
[8:44] <toad_> the result is that the customer has diminished choice. competition is reduced by this behaviour.
[8:45] <hobx_> Adult people choose to do this knowledgably.
[8:45] <hobx_> Why should I tell them they cannot?
[8:45] <toad_> because the market is served by some regulation
[8:45] <cbreak> have you ever seen an adult person buying a computer? not the slightest evidence of a clue...
[8:46] <toad_> competition law being the most obvious case
[8:46] <toad_> why do you think we HAVE competition law
[8:46] <toad_> ?
[8:46] <hobx_> cbreak: So you base your opinion on contempt for other peoples ability to act for themselves. I understand now.
[8:46] <toad_> because monopolies have been abused, and we have made means to fix this
[8:47] <toad_> heh
[8:47] <cbreak> I base my opinion on what I know, not what I assume.
[8:47] <hobx_> Yeah, all laws are justified just because they exist.
[8:47] <toad_> hobx_: most laws attempt to fix some problem. that doesn't mean they are the right solution.
[8:47] <cbreak> And I know that in todays society most people are specialists.
[8:47] <toad_> but you haven't given me any reason to think you can fix the problem
[8:48] <hobx_> plenty of laws are just wrong to begin with. Many try to solve problems that don't exist for misguided or populist reasons. They almost always make things worse.
[8:48] <hobx_> That is because I don't concede that the problem exists.
[8:48] <toad_> hobx_: what do you think of natural monopolies? for example, sewerage systems
[8:48] <cbreak> We can't allow a single powerfull entity to dominate everything, balance is neccessary.
[8:49] <toad_> i don't see how it is possible to have competition in the sewerage market within a single city
[8:49] <toad_> this is a common problem with major infrastructure
[8:49] <toad_> i don't see that you could realistically have two parallel sewerage networks run by different companies
[8:50] <hobx_> I dunno. But in the larger sense you are certainly free to choose your sewage system since you are free to choose where you live.
[8:50] <toad_> you would have a monopoly, right? and it'd be owned by one company, who could charge whatever they wanted to charge.. who couldn't be bought out because they could name their price..
[8:50] <toad_> hobx_: ROFL
[8:50] <toad_> hobx_: how is that different to choosing which government you want to live under?
[8:51] <hobx_> That we aren't free to do that for the most part.
[8:51] <toad_> hobx_: and you can't, in reality, because you run into problems with countries not wanting to accept people from other countries
[8:51] <hobx_> right
[8:51] <toad_> hobx_: sounds pretty neo-feudal to me...
[8:51] <hobx_> Can one add "neo" to anything and make it sound cool?
[8:52] <toad_> hobx_: no. neo-nazi, for example.
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[8:52] <toad_> "New Labour" !
[8:52] <hobx_> Neo-labour?
[8:52] <toad_> hobx_: how do you even ensure freedom of movement?
[8:53] <toad_> if the people in a town don't like foreigners they will simply refuse to sell land to foreigners
[8:53] <toad_> they are exercising their freedoms
[8:53] <hobx_> Besides, did I ever say that utilities cannot be government run? I'm not an anarchist.
[8:53] <toad_> so it's not true that you can move more freely
[8:53] <toad_> hobx_: you WHAT?
[8:53] <hobx_> I what WHAT?
[8:54] <toad_> you accept the need for government, just it can't compel anyone to do anything?
[8:54] <toad_> government that is paid for charitably?
[8:54] <toad_> oh and of course, it can't nationalize existing private sewerage systems no matter how bad they are
[8:54] <hobx_> No, it collects tax. Flat rate per person.
[8:54] <toad_> it would have to build a new town
[8:54] <toad_> ahhh
[8:55] <toad_> so it collects a poll tax... and what of those who can't afford to pay? I suppose they would be sold into slavery?
[8:55] <toad_> "do we not have workhouses?"...
[8:55] <toad_> not, of course, forever, merely until they paid their debt off
[8:56] <toad_> the whole libertarian thing is simply a thin veneer on victorian and earlier ideas
[8:56] <hobx_> Well, the principle is pretty simple. I mean, money is just an invention anyways. A way of denoting monetary value.
[8:56] <cbreak> that sounds evil..
[8:56] <hobx_> That which we need to concede to the government to build a civilization is not money but some of our time.
[8:56] <toad_> hobx_: yes or no! If a man cannot pay the poll tax, what will a libertarian government do to him?
[8:57] <toad_> hobx_: okay, so the government can compel people to do things. Can it compel them to do different things in accordance with what they are good at?
[8:57] <hobx_> eh?
[8:58] <toad_> can the government compel different people to do different things?
[8:58] <hobx_> not sure what you mean by that.
[8:58] <toad_> as opposed to compelling everyone to do the same thing (poll tax) ?
[8:58] <toad_> hobx_: if there are some who are good at digging sewerage tunnels, can the government compel them to do this instead of paying the poll tax?
[8:59] <hobx_> I think the basic principle is that we are compelled to give some our time to the government to support the civilization. Say one month per year.
[8:59] <toad_> hobx_: okay, so how do you reconcile this with the small problem that money is worth a different amount of time to different people?
[8:59] <cbreak> The time of rich people is worth more, so they have to pay more money as symbol of theyr time :D
[8:59] <toad_> hobx_: 1 month a year could be anything from a hundred euros to a billion euros
[9:00] <hobx_> But it is better for everyone if those who can pay for that month rather than working it, since a government needs income to hire people full time.
[9:01] <toad_> hobx_: yes but a month's labour will be worth a different amount of money, and a different amount of utility, to the government, from different people
[9:01] <hobx_> You mean that different peoples time is worth a different amount of money to others?
[9:01] <toad_> many will not have skills which are immediately and directly useful to the government
[9:01] <toad_> hobx_: 10 hours of my time and 10 hours of ian's time are worth different amounts of money to me and ian
[9:01] <hobx_> Yes, most people would pay the poll tax rather than work the month.
[9:02] <cbreak> Bill G. can earn more money in one month than I can.
[9:02] <toad_> hobx_: some people would have to pay the poll tax because there is nothing else they can usefully do for the government
[9:02] <hobx_> You mean 10 hours of Ian's time isn't worth much to you?
[9:02] <toad_> no, i mean the monetary value TO IAN of 10 hours of ian's time is different to the monetary value to me of 10 hours of my time
[9:02] <cbreak> If he can earn more in the same time he would have to give to the gov, he has to give more money to the gov :)
[9:03] <hobx_> toad_: By the "monetary value" you mean how much it is worth to other people?
[9:03] <toad_> hobx_: some people would have to pay the poll tax, would have no skills that are useful to the government, and yet would not have any money
[9:03] <hobx_> They can build pyramids
[9:03] <toad_> hobx_: in which case they would have to be compelled to work that month somehow for other people, and give the money to the government?
[9:04] <toad_> i object vehemently to the idea of poll tax. however, anything that is close to "from each according to his means" is more acceptable.
[9:04] <hobx_> That is one solution.
[9:05] <toad_> nobody should be enslaved by the government by being made to pay more than they can earn
[9:06] <hobx_> I don't see why being sufficiently incompitent should entitle one to living off the backs of others.
[9:06] <toad_> ahh, so you think people should be enslaved by the government if they can't afford to pay "their share" of the basic services?
[9:07] <toad_> which would not include food
[9:07] <toad_> because charity is immoral in your worldview
[9:07] <toad_> (otherwise FairTrade wouldn't be evil)
[9:07] <hobx_> Charity is not the slightest bit immoral.
[9:07] <hobx_> Everyone has the right to charitable.
[9:07] <toad_> hobx_: the other day you were explaining to me why fair-trade coffee is immoral. fair-trade coffee is effectively charity.
[9:08] <hobx_> Putting a gun to somebody's head and telling them they have to "charitable" is immoral.
[9:08] <toad_> it is the idea of giving somebody a better wage for what they have produced
[9:08] <toad_> this is close to charity although i might argue it is morally indefensible to do otherwise
[9:08] <toad_> we were not talking about campaigning for different trade rules!
[9:08] <toad_> we were talking about charity!
[9:09] <toad_> entirely consensual on the part of the consumer and the producer
[9:09] <hobx_> If you think I called charity immoral you didn't understand anything I said in that entire discussion.
[9:10] <toad_> you were not talking about campaigning in general for fair trade. you were talking about a specific thing, which was the idea of consumers voluntarily paying more in exchange for an assurance that the third world growers of coffee beans get a tolerable living from a hard day's work
[9:11] <toad_> you were arguing that customers should be entirely cynical in their purchases for the good of the market, and only consider the quality and cost of the product itself
[9:11] <cbreak> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4041.txt
[9:12] <hobx_> Yes, I argued that if the goal to raise the wealth of the developing world, then acting in your own interest is best.
[9:12] <toad_> hobx_: therefore charity is immoral
[9:12] <cbreak> (A document on morale in internet routing. May be worth considering for freenet)
[9:13] <hobx_> And while charity isn't immoral, it certainly can be harmful when misdirected - look at the biggest receivers of international development aide for instance.
[9:13] <toad_> s/morale/morality
[9:13] <toad_> hobx_: i am not saying that all charity goes where it is most needed, or is effective, or is even appropriate
[9:13] <toad_> hobx_: but your argument appeared to be that charity is immoral in and of itself
[9:13] <hobx_> Noop. There is nothing immoral about it. Often misguided, but that is not the same thing.
[9:14] <hobx_> Charity cannot be immoral. By defenition it means people giving away voluntarily.
[9:14] <toad_> i can't see a big difference between the idea "lets give some money to the third world", and "lets give the third world a fair price for the goods they produce". except that the latter is more practical in some ways, and can seem more basic
[9:14] <hobx_> I think people of less individualist positions then me might argue that it can be of course (giving a thousand pounds to a heronist for instance)
[9:15] <toad_> hobx_: so fair-trade coffee is not immoral in your opinion, merely misguided
[9:15] <hobx_> yes
[9:15] <toad_> i'm not sure what the difference is between immoral and misguided...
[9:15] <hobx_> really?
[9:15] <cbreak> misguided means it's not guided to him... :)
[9:15] <toad_> LOL cbreak
[9:15] <toad_> well, misguided could mean mistaken
[9:16] <toad_> is that the intent?
[9:16] <hobx_> Say I want to get rich. Then going to the casino is misguided. Robbing somebody is immoral (and probably misguided too).
[9:16] <toad_> where as immoral is deliberately wrong
[9:16] <toad_> yes but
[9:16] <toad_> what you seem to be saying is ALL charity, or nearly all charity, is misguided
[9:16] <hobx_> Now say I want to make somebody else rich.
[9:17] <toad_> if fair trade coffee is misguided, then pretty much any charitable act is misguided
[9:17] <hobx_> Buying him a lottery ticker would be misguided.
[9:17] <toad_> so we see the underlying nihilism
[9:17] <hobx_> No it isn't.
[9:17] <toad_> hobx_: which isn't?
[9:18] <toad_> okay, misguided has to relate to a goal
[9:18] <toad_> lets set one
[9:18] <toad_> simple goal: i want the world to be a better place when i leave it than when i arrived in it
[9:18] <hobx_> I don't understand what nihilism has to do with this.
[9:18] <hobx_> Depending on what you mean buy it.
[9:18] <toad_> you would argue that fair-trade coffee does not propagate that goal, right?
[9:18] <hobx_> I'm not a nihilist (expect in a spiritual sense). I have very clear moral principles.
[9:19] <hobx_> Yes, I would.
[9:19] <toad_> hobx_: you have very clear moral principles that boil down to "Do as thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law"
[9:19] <hobx_> noop.
[9:19] <hobx_> Live for yourself and let others live for themselves.
[9:19] <toad_> hobx_: so if it's misguided to that goal, to give them a fair price for their coffee, is it misguided to dig them a well in order for them to have clean drinking water?
[9:19] <toad_> hobx_: it is the same thing
[9:20] <hobx_> No it isn't
[9:20] <toad_> hobx_: okay
[9:20] <toad_> I'll concede that actually... it's not "do as thou wilt". it's "do whatever is in your best interest, and ignore everyone else except as tools"
[9:20] <toad_> hobx_: is it misguided to dig them a well so they can have clean drinking water?
[9:21] <cbreak> sounds like a "homo oeconomicus"... I always thought they'd only exist in theory...
[9:21] <hobx_> you missed the part about "let others live for themselves".
[9:21] <toad_> cbreak: they exist! we have one here!
[9:21] <toad_> hobx_: and die for themselves. live and let die.
[9:21] <hobx_> You may no steal, you may not kill, you may not take somebody's freedom.
[9:21] <hobx_> toad_: Live and let live.
[9:21] <toad_> hobx_: and if they can't live without aid, then they will die, and you have no obligation to help them.
[9:22] <hobx_> Yes. There is no such obligation.
[9:22] <toad_> hobx_: is digging a well for a third world village misguided to the goal of eliminating poverty?
[9:23] <hobx_> They do not have the right to claim my life to save their own.
[9:23] <hobx_> toad_: I don't know. I would hope not.
[9:23] <toad_> you have already said that buying coffee from them at a "fair" price is misguided to the goal of eliminating poverty.
[9:23] <toad_> what is the difference between giving them some money, and giving them some money?
[9:24] <toad_> hobx_: they do not have the right to claim one second of your life to save their entire life, in fact, is your position
[9:24] <hobx_> "Fair trade" isn't about giving them money. It is about trying to apply our standards of income and work to other places so that they cannot compete on price.
[9:24] <toad_> what is special about paying them a decent wage that differentiates it to paying somebody to dig them a well?
[9:25] <toad_> hobx_: that is not true. CafeDirect and Nescafe Gold Blend cost the same
[9:25] <toad_> a lot gets lost in the middle
[9:25] <toad_> in any case, the whole point is that the consumer is willing to pay slightly more for a superior product
[9:25] <toad_> morally superior, in this case
[9:25] <hobx_> toad_: If I concede onto a person the right to one second of life, then I must be ready to concede my entire life to China. Yes?
[9:26] <toad_> just as I might choose not to buy from CocaCola because they've done some things I don't approve of
[9:26] <toad_> hobx_: did I ever say that doing the right thing was easy?
[9:26] <hobx_> What has CocaCola done?
[9:26] <hobx_> Exploit third world countries for coke drilling?
[9:27] <toad_> sold toxic waste as fertiliser, seriously interfered with local water sources, i think there were some allegations of union workers being killed...
[9:27] <toad_> lots, i've got a leaflet somewhere
[9:27] * hobx_ thinks you shouldn't buy coke because water tastes better and is healthier.
[9:27] <hobx_> Not to speak of beer!
[9:28] <toad_> I do buy water, for that exact reason; however if there is no water (or I need sugar), I try to get pepsi rather than coke
[9:28] <hobx_> Then I think you are misguided.
[9:28] <toad_> because...?
[9:28] <hobx_> You have any reason to believe Pepsico. is so much better?
[9:28] <toad_> only that i have not heard similar things of them
[9:28] <hobx_> It is a larger company.
[9:29] <toad_> wrongdoing being widespread is not an excuse for ignoring wrongdoing
[9:29] <hobx_> I didn't say that.
[9:29] <toad_> anyway.. it is wrong to buy fair trade coffee, because third world countries can't compete on price, is your argument?
[9:29] <hobx_> But you are chosing Pepsi over Coke without any reason if you aren't sure that Pepsi are really so much "nicer" than coke?
[9:30] <toad_> hobx_: we all have to work with limited information
[9:30] <hobx_> "fair trade" is protectionism in sheeps clothing.
[9:30] <toad_> hobx_: what if I happen to know that the fair trade coffee is produced in a specific third world country?
[9:30] <hobx_> toad_: Your limited information was probably printed by Pepsico.
[9:30] <toad_> many of them identify their origin
[9:30] <toad_> i don't see how that could possibly be detrimental to the people of the country in question
[9:31] <hobx_> Well, it is very good that you wish to support them by trading with them.
[9:31] <toad_> i agree that if you only buy coffee made in the west on the grounds that the rest are exploited, that would be inappropriate
[9:32] <toad_> however it is quite possible for the rest to compete on price; we are not talking about paying workers thousands of dollars a year here. we are talking about the poverty line, which is around $1/day globally.
[9:33] <hobx_> But you are assuming that this will lead to everybody buying coffee as an act of support for some third world country. In fact the drive to get everybody to start marking "fair trade" on products from the third world hurts those countries ability to compete with the west, and so build their wealth.
[9:34] <toad_> how does it hurt them, assuming that the fair trade label is properly administered and is not given to products which are from the west?
[9:34] <toad_> the products that the fair-trade coffee compete with are western coffees made from third world sources who are below the poverty line, not generally stuff grown in the west
[9:35] <hobx_> True for coffee perhaps, but hardly for many other things.
[9:36] <hobx_> Anyways, I really need to work
[9:36] <toad_> universally true for any good which is cheaper to obtain by exploitation in the third world than by growing it in the west
[9:36] <hobx_> I am wasting my entire day here
[9:36] <toad_> agreed :)
[9:36] * toad_ will go get food then work
[9:36] <hobx_> Trading with the third world is exploiting it...
[9:36] <toad_> hobx_: go away
[9:36] <toad_> :)
[9:36] <hobx_> Should tell that to India and China...
[9:36] <toad_> hobx_: go work
[9:37] <toad_> hobx_: we can talk another day
[9:37] <hobx_> oki doki
[9:38] <toad_> hobx_: I agree that there are protectionist movements in the west e.g. all the fuss about outsourcing, and that these are counterproductive
[9:38] <toad_> bbiab
[9:46] <toad_> btw, the point about travel in comfort is that you can get semi-useful stuff done e.g. reading, if you have a table and a reasonably smooth ride
[9:46] <toad_> bbiab
[10:30] * almut (~almut@217-162-196-154.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[10:38] <toad_> hi almut
[10:40] <almut> oops, my girl friends nick :-) (and laptop)
[10:40] * almut is now known as spaetz
[10:40] <spaetz> it's me :-)
[10:40] <toad_> :)
[10:40] <toad_> hi
[10:40] <toad_> does logcheck ignore files in ignore.d that have dots in their names?
[10:41] <spaetz> dunno
[10:42] <hobx_> Weren't you going to get hitched?
[10:43] <toad_> who?
[10:43] <hobx_> spaetz
[10:49] <toad_> anyone suggest a good IDS? I just need something that blocks an IP address after the first dozen attempts to brute force SSH?
[10:54] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d54C32DBA.access.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
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[11:05] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-082-082-148-022.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[11:06] <hobx_> How about set your soundcard to make a note every time a connection comes in, and then get a dog and train to bark when there are intrusions.
[11:12] <toad_> umm, that would not automatically block the IP in question
[11:31] <toad_> how do i get the return value of a command as a number in bash?
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[13:06] <kokje> Hi folks...is there a way to model client arrival rate in freenet..can I assume it to be poison distribution ?
[13:07] <kokje> I mean "poisson" distribution
[13:17] <hobx> You can't really have the rate be poisson distributed. That makes no sense.
[13:24] <kokje> then what do you ppl suggest
[13:25] <kokje> I want to model client arrival rate and object request rate for freenet
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[13:48] <toad_> i thought poisson distribution was "equal chance of event in every millisecond"?
[13:48] <toad_> every instant
[13:48] <toad_> hobx_: how is that bad?
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[13:58] <kokje> yeah..I would like to know why is poisson bad for modelling client arrival rate..
[14:01] <toad_> well it's obviously not realistic - but i don't see why it's bad in the absence of empirical data
[14:07] * RallosZek (1000@d14-69-248-202.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[14:12] <kokje> also...since more work has been done on other p2p systems like gnutella, bittorrent and DC++, I m thinking to use that work to model freenet client arrival and request rate..is that good idea ??
[14:12] <kokje> or freenet is different from others in these aspects
[14:17] <toad_> in some aspects
[14:19] <kokje> like
[14:20] <toad_> freenet nodes learn.. there is a huge benefit from long uptimes
[14:20] <kokje> hmm..
[14:21] <toad_> that doesn't mean that everyone runs their node(s) 24x7
[14:21] <toad_> but it's definitely beneficial to do so
[14:23] <kokje> so what model (or distribution) should I use for client arrival rate
[14:24] <toad_> i don't know.. what kind of freenet are you simulating? if it's close to the 0.5/0.6 system, then probably poisson distribution would be reasonable for arrival of new nodes to the overall system
[14:24] <kokje> we are simulating the one in the original freenet paper
[14:25] <toad_> i think oskar (hobx_) assumed that you add another node every N requests or something...
[14:26] <toad_> my recent work has related to something that isn't the original freenet
[14:28] <kokje> oh
[14:36] <kokje> so for original freenet paper, poisson should suffice
[14:48] <toad_> i would have thought so yes
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[15:22] <hobx> You can model something as being poisson distributed with a certain rate
[15:23] <hobx> but one typically keeps the rate constant...
[15:27] <sanity_> toad: i don't get your recent email - it sounds like it is working, what is the problem?
[15:32] <toad_> sanity_: it's producing absurdly good results and i'm not sure that it's credible relative to the load distribution
[15:32] <toad_> there may be some sort of wierd bug either in the KeyCollector or the stores or somewhere
[15:33] <toad_> sanity_: the other reason I'm concerned is that it is _really_ fragile
[15:33] <sanity_> well, we can wait for oskar's independent implementation to see if he gets similar results
[15:33] <sanity_> fragile how?
[15:33] <toad_> sanity_: like I said, any subset of a 1/d network seems to be not 1/d
[15:33] <toad_> unless it's engineered with knowledge of the original identities
[15:33] <sanity_> i'm not sure that that is particularly surprising
[15:34] <toad_> sanity_: it may not be surprising, but it is alarming
[15:34] <sanity_> if you randomly chose 100 people from the planet's population, they wouldn't form a small world network either
[15:34] <toad_> how do we know that the freenet-using subset of the global graph of connections will be 1/d?
[15:34] <sanity_> why is it alarming?
[15:34] <toad_> sanity_: i'm not talking about choosing a random unconnected 100 people
[15:34] <toad_> i'm talking about choosing a connected subset
[15:35] <sanity_> because they will be a defined community
[15:35] <sanity_> much as the way that the US is a small world network of people
[15:35] <sanity_> or the way that freenet developers probably form a (small) small world network
[15:35] <toad_> sanity_: is there any real world data we can get e.g. from academic sources, or orkut-like projects?
[15:36] <sanity_> people form small world networks naturally
[15:36] <toad_> sanity_: "small world" refers to a few people having lots of links and most having few links, in all the literature i have read
[15:36] <toad_> NOT to 1/d on distance
[15:36] <sanity_> toad: there are *lots* of experiments which demonstrate that people form small world networks
[15:37] <toad_> define "small world", please
[15:37] <sanity_> no, the critical characteristic is that if A knows B, and A knows C, then there is an increased likelihood that B knows C
[15:37] <toad_> that's not enough - you need enough (a lot) short links, and enough (a few) long links
[15:37] <sanity_> that is the requirement for low-diameter, which is a precursor to small world (all small world networks have a low diameter)
[15:38] <sanity_> toad: in a network with no identities there is no concept of short and long
[15:38] <toad_> well, if these networks are small-world because they have a few people with lots of connections and many with a few, that won't actually be enough to build a practical network
[15:38] <sanity_> there is only connected or unconnected
[15:39] <sanity_> no, that isn't why small world works
[15:39] <toad_> sanity_: I'm sure I have seen stuff on small world talking about the order of nodes - the number of connections
[15:39] <sanity_> and anyone who thinks that it is is wrong
[15:39] <toad_> and I've talked to people who have said that too
[15:39] <sanity_> they are mistaken if they think that
[15:39] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("CyberLore.net - Recommendations on the best games, freeware and websites.")
[15:39] <toad_> okay, so the network of relationships globally is characterised by the 1/d property - most people know roughly the same number of people, it's just that some people know people "further away"
[15:40] <sanity_> small world works even in networks where every node has the same number of connections - it doesn't rely on a small number of highly connected nodes
[15:40] <toad_> the human brain can handle around 150 people (and groups), according to projections from monkey brains...
[15:40] <cbreak> :)
[15:40] <cbreak> That sounds scientific :)
[15:40] <sanity_> toad: well, the network of people's relationships probably maps to 2 dimensions rather than 1
[15:41] <toad_> sanity_: well, i need to do some verification work..
[15:41] <toad_> sanity_: on my model
[15:41] <toad_> there ought to be other algorithms for generating 1/d networks and small world networks
[15:41] <toad_> can you point me to some?
[15:41] <toad_> my model has all but the last few nodes have exactly 10 connections
[15:41] <sanity_> um
[15:41] <toad_> and all connections bidi
[15:42] <sanity_> what is wrong with oskar's algorithm?
[15:42] <toad_> what would be ideal would be some real-world data
[15:42] <sanity_> it is simple, and it is demonstrably correct
[15:42] <toad_> sanity_: it demonstrably produces the 1/d property
[15:42] <sanity_> toad: real world data to prove what exactly?
[15:42] <toad_> does it produce any other properties which make it a lot easier to do NGR on it?
[15:42] <sanity_> toad: i doubt it
[15:42] <toad_> sanity_: to prove that it's worth the effort of building something and trying to roll it out
[15:42] <sanity_> toad: it is fairly explicit
[15:43] <sanity_> toad: no, to prove what *specifically*
[15:43] <toad_> sanity_: it produces a lot of structure by using actual numerical identities...
[15:43] <toad_> sanity_: to prove that the NGR algo works on any 1/d network
[15:44] <sanity_> based on my understanding of oskar's algorithm it seems like the only property of these networks is 1/d - because this is explicitly what it does
[15:44] <toad_> sanity_: is it possible that the subsetting algorithm is wrong because each border node has an equal probability of being added?
[15:44] <sanity_> but you should talk to oskar about it to be sure
[15:44] <sanity_> toad: i suspect so
[15:44] <sanity_> toad: think of it in terms of people
[15:45] <toad_> sanity_: and it is provable that the small world property that US connections adhere to implies the 1/d property?
[15:45] <sanity_> 1/d, or an approximation of 1/d
[15:45] <sanity_> it doesn't have to be exactly 1/d to work
[15:45] <toad_> sanity_: well, can we develop a subsetting algorithm that makes sense logically and that works with NGR?
[15:45] <sanity_> um, we already have one!
[15:45] <toad_> sanity_: I'm not sure about that... it may well be that NGR is very very sensitive to it being exactly 1/d
[15:45] <sanity_> the one you are using now is fine
[15:46] <sanity_> i doubt that
[15:46] <toad_> the one i am using now uses identity rather disturbingly directly. why is that close to real life?
[15:46] <sanity_> anyway, forget 1/D - that only applies to nodes with identities
[15:46] <toad_> sanity_: well, any subset i've tried so far except for the one we are using now hasn't worked
[15:46] <sanity_> when NGR gets its hands on the network nodes don't have identities, therefore it is meaningless to talk in terms of node distance
[15:46] <toad_> sanity_: well okay, forget 1/d - but the triangle property is a subset of 1/d and i suspect it's not enough on its own
[15:47] <sanity_> toad: i think the subset algorithms you have tried result in something that isn't even close to 1/D
[15:47] <toad_> there are surely small diameter networks that adhere to the triangles property but which can never adhere to the 1/d property no matter what identities you assign
[15:47] <toad_> sanity_: well, greedy routing doesn't work on them
[15:47] <sanity_> toad: aren't there algorithms to explicitly determine the diameter of a graph?
[15:48] <toad_> sanity_: but greedy routing is probably _very_ sensitive
[15:48] <toad_> as it doesn't even try to detect looping, for example
[15:48] <toad_> sanity_: is it possible that the subsets are 1/d, but only with different identities to those extracted from the original network?
[15:48] <sanity_> toad: i am not sure about that - its a very interesting question, can NGR turn any "small triangle" network into a small world network by assigning appropriate identies?
[15:49] <sanity_> i doubt greedy routing is any more sensitive than anything else
[15:49] <toad_> sanity_: real world (ish) data would be very interesting anyway
[15:49] <sanity_> i think the subsets you have created that didn't work probably weren't low-diameter
[15:50] <sanity_> forget real world data, you are just confusing the experiment
[15:50] <toad_> sanity_: okay, so how do we create small diameter subsets of a small diameter network?
[15:50] <sanity_> EXACTLY THE WAY WE ARE DOING IT NOW!
[15:50] <toad_> i can sort of see the justification for the subsetting algo we are using now actually...
[15:50] <toad_> you follow the short links
[15:50] <sanity_> exactly
[15:51] <cbreak> You are talking about freent simulations, right?
[15:51] <sanity_> the way we are creating subsets now may well be the only way to create subsets of a small world network that remain small world
[15:51] * kokje (~kokje@c-24-127-127-236.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[15:51] <toad_> cbreak: we are talking about something different to what freenet is now
[15:51] <sanity_> cbreak: simulations of what freenet might become :-)
[15:51] <toad_> cbreak: which may become 0.7
[15:51] <toad_> sanity_: and it reflects reality?
[15:52] <toad_> because any given community will be small world
[15:52] <toad_> sanity_: what we would gain from real world data would be an estimation of how sensitive the algorithm is to imperfections in the 1/d property
[15:53] <sanity_> toad: there have been tens, perhaps hundreds of experiments which demonstrate that communities of people form small world networks. proving that this is true is not the most pressing question for us
[15:53] <sanity_> toad: we can do that without real-world data
[15:53] <sanity_> toad: we can do that by screwing with oskar's algorithm to deliberately make it something other than 1/d
[15:53] <toad_> well, we want it to be only slightly screwed
[15:54] <toad_> screwed to a configurable extent :)
[15:54] <sanity_> toad: but i really don't think that sensitivity to being exactly 1/d is going to be a problem
[15:54] <sanity_> toad: exactly
[15:54] <toad_> sanity_: what makes you think that sensitivity to not being exactly 1/d won't be a problem?
[15:55] <sanity_> because when people route information they aren't particularly sensitive to the network being exactly 1/d
[15:56] <toad_> people don't make new connections for purpose of routing information?
[15:56] <sanity_> but you are going off on a tangent. the immediate issue is to see if NGR can learn how to route in a "small triangles" network.
[15:56] <sanity_> toad: what people do is an approximation to that
[15:57] <toad_> sanity_: well, the network won't be able to make new connections
[15:57] <sanity_> so what?
[15:57] <sanity_> it doesn't have to if the network is already small-world
[15:57] <toad_> so it's not a perfect analogy
[15:58] <toad_> but yes, in theory, if NGR is sufficiently insensitive
[15:58] <sanity_> of course it isn't, but it is a valid analogy for our purposes
[15:59] <toad_> i would be surprised if there isn't some bug somewhere skewing the results though... 5000+ nodes, >99.5% success probability, and most nodes' load is less than 100
[15:59] <toad_> the top node is 3624
[15:59] <toad_> there's a sort of smooth-exponential scale...
[15:59] <toad_> but with a 3:1 ratio of datastore slots to live set, i don't see how it can store all the data
[15:59] <sanity_> i think these networks "like" to do that if they can (create uber-nodes), but they don't have to
[16:01] <toad_> yeah
[16:01] <toad_> i'm saying i don't see how the network can
[16:01] <toad_> and yet it seems to be doing so
[16:02] <sanity_> well, we need to figure out how it is doing it
[16:02] <toad_> what is the next step? i want to be absolutely sure that the 99%+ success ratios are not an illusion
[16:02] <sanity_> how can we confirm that?
[16:02] <sanity_> i mean, one way is for oskar to independently implement his own sim
[16:03] <toad_> well, the easiest thing is to go through the KeyCollector every so often and count the number of occurrences each key has in the collective datastore
[16:03] <toad_> if more than 1% of the keys are nonexistant, then there's obviously something wrong
[16:03] * PrintStar (~jeff@adsl-68-76-97-250.dsl.bcvloh.ameritech.net) has joined #freenet
[16:04] <toad_> one even easier way to do this would be to try a 1:1 ratio...
[16:04] <sanity_> well, lets increase our confidence in the result by doing some sanity checks
[16:04] <sanity_> although the only way to be really confident is to have the result confirmed in an independantly implemented simulation
[16:05] <sanity_> and unfortunately, you can't do that :-)
[16:05] <sanity_> but perhaps you could help oskar in some way...
[16:05] <sanity_> ...without corrupting it...
[16:05] <toad_> sanity_: also, I still haven't seen any positive results with full 3 estimator NGR
[16:06] <sanity_> that is definitely weird
[16:06] <toad_> sanity_: we need to be able to take into account things other than the success path length
[16:06] <sanity_> but that is a separate question
[16:06] <sanity_> we still need to prove that NGR *can* solve the problem *before* we worry about how to make it solve it better
[16:07] <toad_> okay.. it's a major implementation issue IMHO (there is no security without some way to take pSuccess into account), but it's not critical
[16:08] <sanity_> i'm not saying that we don't need to investigate it - but we have to investigate this *first*
[16:09] <toad_> okay what do we need to investigate exactly in your view?
[16:10] <sanity_> we need an independent implementation - but you can't build that
[16:10] <sanity_> i guess if we could find data from something like orkut that might be useful
[16:10] <sanity_> although not strictly scientifically probative
[16:11] <sanity_> at least we would know that it isn't some quirk of how we are building the graph (although i doubt it is)
[16:11] <sanity_> i think oskar might be a better person to ask than me though
[16:11] <toad_> right
[16:11] <toad_> that's my hope
[16:13] <sanity_> wasn't oskar just here?
[16:13] <sanity_> where did he go?
[16:13] <sanity_> hobx?
[16:13] <hobx> pope a dope
[16:13] <sanity_> toad: one thing: what do the estimators look like?
[16:13] <hobx> Think I can be pope now?
[16:14] <sanity_> hobx: do you believe in God?
[16:14] <sanity_> hobx: i think that may be a requirement
[16:14] <sanity_> hobx: toad might make a better pope
[16:14] <sanity_> hobx: although he would have to cut his hair
[16:14] <cbreak> you also seem to have to be old.
[16:14] <hobx> Umm.
[16:15] <hobx> Have you read much about the history of the catholic church?
[16:15] <hobx> I think believing in God would be a great impediment.
[16:15] <sanity_> hobx: toad is wondering what he should do next - you should probably read back a bit
[16:15] <hobx> I don't quite understand what he has done so far.
[16:15] <sanity_> hobx: well, talk to him and find out then
[16:16] <sanity_> hobx: basically it looks like it works - surprisingly well
[16:16] <sanity_> hobx: really what we need is an independent implementation of the simulation (*nudge nudge*)
[16:18] <toad_> sanity_: 99.7%+ probability of success with 1:1 storage ratio
[16:18] <toad_> sanity_: I'm not sure that's even theoretically possible
[16:19] <toad_> there is duplication on insert, duplication on request... it should wipe out the keys ...
[16:20] <toad_> <hobx> I think believing in God would be a great impediment. --- LOL, historically, well... :)
[16:20] <toad_> but john paul 2 was a good pope
[16:21] <toad_> aha
[16:21] <toad_> it's only storing 100 keys...
[16:22] <sanity_> toad: can i call you, oskar and i are on a conference call
[16:23] <toad_> sanity_: yeah.. i'm hoping to fix the bug and get dinner though..
[16:23] <toad_> my sound card's input doesn't work
[16:23] <sanity_> won't take long
[16:23] <toad_> ok
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[21:59] * blah (~blah_blah@69-162-71-217.vnnyca.adelphia.net) has joined #freenet
[22:00] <blah> hi
[22:00] <blah> I can't seem to find any content on freenet
[22:00] <blah> any guide out there to tell me how do use it?
[22:03] <gvdm> i cant figure that out myself, and nobody here is actually here
[22:03] <blah> eeerg
[22:03] <blah> hmm
[22:03] * leenookx_ (~leenookx@host81-157-27-89.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[22:03] <blah> how long have you been here?
[22:03] <gvdm> couple of hhours
[22:04] <blah> omg
[22:04] <blah> this really sucks
[22:04] <blah> I am going to be traveling in a few weeks to china
[22:04] <blah> so I was hoping to be able to access uncensored info
[22:04] <blah> for a while
[22:05] <blah> how far have you gotten on it?
[22:05] <blah> I can get the main page from 127.0.0.1:8888
[22:05] <blah> but I can't go anywhere
[22:06] <gvdm> nope, sasy access denied
[22:06] * NullAcht15 (~NullAcht1@dsl-082-082-148-022.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[22:06] <gvdm> but im going to fiddle around with it
[22:06] <blah> please jump on here and let me know if you get it to work
[22:06] <blah> I think my problem is related to seednodes
[22:07] <gvdm> hmm
[22:12] <blah> hmm, I got some info in frost finally
[22:13] <gvdm> i just realised i was using an old version (04) so im dling a new one
[22:14] <blah> cool
[22:14] <blah> Im using ver 0.6
[22:14] <blah> the unstable one since 0.5 didn't work at all
[22:16] <gvdm> im dling 20050403
[22:16] <gvdm> todays
[22:17] <blah> cool, let me know
[22:18] <gvdm> stupid 56k...
[22:19] <blah> I am getting some stuff on frost now
[22:19] <blah> very little but some stuff
[22:19] <blah> frost is a gui for freenet btw
[22:24] <gvdm> hmm, needed?
[22:25] <blah> for me yes since I can't access anything with out it
[22:25] <blah> and what I can access is very small
[22:26] <blah> so far what I have found was porn, what I am looking for is uncensored news, which I think they have
[22:26] * leenookx_ (~leenookx@host81-157-27-89.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #freenet
[22:26] <blah> hi leenookx_
[22:26] <blah> are you able to use freenet leenookx_ ?
[22:30] <gvdm> and... hes not here either
[22:30] <gvdm> i dont know of a deader channel
[22:30] <gvdm> with the possible exception of #hurd, but that has moer people
[22:32] <blah> lol
[22:32] <blah> what the heck is all this about then?
[22:32] <gvdm> all what about?
[22:33] <blah> the freenet channel, no one is here
[22:33] <blah> except for you
[22:33] <gvdm> maybe they all communcate over freenet, making it impossible to join if youre not smart enuff to figure it out yourself
[22:33] <blah> lol
[22:33] <gvdm> sorry "leet" enough
[22:34] <gvdm> grumble...
[22:39] <blah> gotta go
[22:39] <blah> good luck
[22:39] * blah (~blah_blah@69-162-71-217.vnnyca.adelphia.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[22:39] <gvdm> hmm
[22:42] <gvdm> oy, wake up!
[23:54] <Elly> oy vey!
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.