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[0:31] -dmwaters- {global notice} Hi all! In about 1.5 hours, I'm going to be rebooting the main US hub for a kernel update. This willbe the last of the fixes for the boxes that had the buggy kernel code. This reboot will also take down www.freenode.net briefly. Maintainence should only take about 10 minutes at the most. I apologize for the late notice.
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[2:19] <hobx_> urg
[2:19] <hobx_> fluck
[2:20] <hobx_> drelling drumb dink
[2:20] <hobx_> blahhhh
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[4:44] <hobx_> Hail satan! Hail satan!
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[6:51] <toad_> Elly: nice article - but the thing about being able to write competing file formats perfectly is obvious if you've ever heard of network effects
[6:51] <toad_> it's obvious anyway really
[6:52] <toad_> the only reason it is hard to see is if you're a monopolist-minded business bastard
[6:52] <toad_> as opposed to somebody who just wants to make something useful
[6:52] <toad_> bbiab
[7:02] <toad_> now...
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[7:34] <toad_> now, back to WhackySim
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[8:10] <MatriXica> hello
[8:12] <toad_> hi
[8:12] <MatriXica> how can i apply for an shell ?
[8:12] <MatriXica> i mean i`m looking for an free shell ( bash )
[8:12] <toad_> i have no idea
[8:13] <MatriXica> do u provide this ?
[8:15] <toad_> no
[8:15] <toad_> we're #freenet, node #freenode
[8:15] <toad_> freenetproject.org
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[8:19] <MatriXica> ok
[8:22] <toad_> do we have a randomize-an-array function somewhere?
[8:28] <toad_> MatriXica: since you're here, have a look at the website ;)
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[8:47] <toad_> Average hops for greedy routing: 6.10756
[8:48] <toad_> (for 1000 nodes, forced 1/d distribution)
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[9:05] <nextgens> hi
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[9:39] <Elly|School> Boo!
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[14:46] <toad_> looks like we can do it - the path length approaches that for the original network with greedy routing
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[14:46] <toad_> however, it does not approach it in polylog time...
[14:46] <toad_> at least, not with fake-pcaching
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[15:17] <toad_> 160, 440, ~ 1300
[15:17] <toad_> hmmm
[15:17] <toad_> aha
[15:18] <toad_> that COULD be polylog
[15:18] <Elly> 'fake' cacheing?
[15:18] <toad_> Elly: yeah. simulated. just cache it on the last 5 nodes (closest to specialization) without worrying about the mechanism
[15:19] <Elly> there's apparently a lot about freenet routing that I don't understand
[15:19] <toad_> Elly: Deep Magick going on here... I'm not talking about regular freenet routing :)
[15:19] <toad_> Ian's disappeared otherwise I'd be talking to him
[15:20] <Elly> damn your Blak Majiks
[15:21] <toad_> well.. depending on how i count it, 1290 or a bit later...
[15:21] <toad_> 1340
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[15:22] <toad_> what i'd really like to do now is a sim with 4000 nodes... but that will probably take all night...
[15:26] * toad_ does it anyway...
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[15:46] * toad_ emails sanity_ and hobx re his current results...
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[15:51] <toad_> the 4000 node network definitely seems to be learning... but it will take a long time for it to get anywhere..
[15:51] <toad_> bbiab
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[15:52] <sleon_> toad_, have you got a big hardware?
[15:52] <sleon_> toad_, i got a job in a computer center
[15:52] <sleon_> :)
[15:53] <sleon_> maybe maybe i will lose it by allowing you simulate 4000 nodes on its computers :D
[15:53] <sleon_> but defenetly i will have soon enough money for a dual opteron
[16:03] <toad_> no, my hardware is not big
[16:03] <toad_> i have a few shell accounts though
[16:03] <toad_> where i can run simulations
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[16:04] <sleon_> toad_, year i know
[16:04] <sleon_> toad_, the best one is from mikeeusa i think :)
[16:04] <toad_> i had some problems with that...
[16:04] <sleon_> you had
[16:04] <toad_> not being able to run java..
[16:04] <Elly> we ought to buy a Sun V40z for our simulations
[16:04] <toad_> what's a V40z?
[16:04] <sleon_> toad_, but it was fixed!
[16:05] <toad_> and what does it cost?
[16:05] <Elly> quad opteron box
[16:05] <Elly> 8GB RAM per CPU
[16:05] <Elly> price tag is about $21K
[16:05] <sleon_> Elly, toad does not use threads
[16:05] <sleon_> :|
[16:05] <Elly> it has an independent service coprocessor too, which runs a minimal linux kernel
[16:05] <Elly> and can control the 'main' box
[16:05] <sleon_> Elly, is it not a little to expensive??
[16:05] <sleon_> Elly, look board costs 1000 $
[16:05] <Elly> the coprocessor has its own networking too, 2x100mbit out-of-band for the coprocessor and 2x1000mbit for the main system
[16:05] <sleon_> every processor maximal 400 $
[16:05] <toad_> I do use threads, but so far my simulations haven't been threaded
[16:06] <sleon_> 8 memory chips evry 150 $
[16:06] <toad_> quad opteron board for $1K? really?
[16:06] <Elly> sleon: a quad-proc board costs $1k?
[16:06] <toad_> I heard more like $1500
[16:06] <sleon_> Elly, yes
[16:06] <sleon_> Elly, less
[16:06] <Elly> and uhh
[16:06] <Elly> the 8GB per CPU
[16:06] <Elly> is in 4GB chips
[16:06] <Elly> heh
[16:06] <Elly> expandable to 32GB per CPU
[16:06] <toad_> and the processors can be as much as you're willing to pay
[16:06] <sleon_> Elly, 8gb per cpu?
[16:06] <sleon_> i thought total
[16:06] <Elly> yeah
[16:06] <Elly> nope
[16:07] <toad_> if you only want 1.6GHz or so you can probably get them for $400
[16:07] <toad_> if you want an 848 or 850, it's going to be more like $3K
[16:07] <sleon_> wait i give you last prices
[16:07] <Elly> but if you aren't using a 3.6ghz Xeon, are you really computing or just dicking around?
[16:07] <toad_> 8XX not same as 2XX
[16:07] <toad_> okay i've lost all my shell accounts... except mikeeusa
[16:07] <sleon_> http://www2.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=GKET16&
[16:07] <toad_> which so far i can't get through to
[16:08] <sleon_> so what now?
[16:08] <sleon_> it is cheap :D
[16:08] <Elly> toad_: Umm, I'd offer you one here, but my box is old and slow
[16:08] <Elly> and so probably not much use
[16:08] <toad_> 1450E is like $2K
[16:08] <sleon_> so not much
[16:09] <sleon_> 32 * 102
[16:09] <sleon_> http://www2.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=IAIDVB&
[16:09] <toad_> opteron 846 is 2GHz iirc, isn't it? so ~ $1K for a 2GHz 8-way chip
[16:09] <toad_> so you can probably put one together for $6K or so
[16:09] <sleon_> 239 * 4
[16:09] <toad_> including a small amount of ram
[16:10] <sleon_> http://www2.alternate.de/html/shop/productDetails.html?artno=HK1A32&
[16:10] <toad_> sleon_: what's 239?
[16:10] <sleon_> toad_, 239 euros
[16:10] <sleon_> for
[16:11] <sleon_> AMD Opteron 146 (Boxed, CPGA, "Sledgehammer")
[16:11] <toad_> yes, ONE four six
[16:11] <sleon_> 2000 Mhz
[16:11] <toad_> you need EIGHT four six
[16:11] <toad_> for more than 2-way
[16:11] <sleon_> what is 2-way?
[16:11] <toad_> you can't even use a 146 dual
[16:11] <sleon_> yes?
[16:12] <toad_> sleon_: there are 3 different kinds of opterons. 1XX goes in uniprocessor boards
[16:12] <toad_> 2XX go in dual processor boards
[16:12] <sleon_> aaa i got it
[16:12] <toad_> 8XX go in anything bigger
[16:12] <toad_> 8XX are therefore proportionately expensive
[16:12] <sleon_> Opteron 844
[16:12] <sleon_> Opteron 844
[16:12] <sleon_> CPGA, "Sledgehammer"
[16:12] <sleon_> 1800 MHz
[16:12] <sleon_> 1024 kByte
[16:12] <sleon_> 800 MHz (HyperTransport)
[16:12] <sleon_> Sockel 940
[16:12] <sleon_> in den Warenkorb
[16:12] <sleon_> zum Produktvergleich
[16:12] <sleon_> ? 749,
[16:12] <sleon_> sorry
[16:12] <sleon_> :((
[16:12] <toad_> right, 749E (789E for next one up), for an 846 or so
[16:13] <toad_> so $1K for a reasonable CPU
[16:13] <sleon_> so i can't use 2xx in a quad board?
[16:13] <toad_> $4K for four of them
[16:13] <toad_> $6K with motherboard
[16:13] <toad_> $9K with lots of RAM
[16:13] <sleon_> ok but it is still under 21k! :D
[16:13] <toad_> :)
[16:13] <sleon_> toad_, evrery freenet user should spend 1 euro that would be more then enough
[16:14] <Elly> heh
[16:14] <Elly> you forgot the disks
[16:14] <sleon_> but i think eve dual system is quick enough
[16:14] <Elly> it has a nice multi-TB RAID array
[16:15] <sleon_> Elly, two 40 gig harddrives from maxtor for 100 euros ! :D
[16:15] <Elly> hahahahahaha
[16:15] <Elly> I said multi-TB
[16:15] <Elly> but anyway
[16:15] <sleon_> for what???
[16:15] <Elly> for the v40z
[16:15] <sleon_> he wants only run simulations
[16:15] <Elly> it comes with a 4TB RAID array
[16:15] <Elly> and the whole thing fits in a 3U rack space
[16:15] <sleon_> thats why buying it in parts is always better
[16:15] <Elly> and it runs Solaris
[16:16] <sleon_> the bigger the iron the more you pay for evry thingy you don't need
[16:16] <toad_> my brother had big problems with bent pins on opterons...
[16:16] <Elly> mmm, iron
[16:16] <sleon_> toad_, do they have pins at all?
[16:16] <sleon_> toad_, you have brother?
[16:16] <sleon_> toad_, is he also a coder?
[16:16] <toad_> sleon_: yes of course, all CPUs have pins, except the sucky ones from intel where the mobo has pins
[16:17] <toad_> yes, i have a brother, and no, he's more of a hardware person
[16:17] <toad_> he collects whacky hardware
[16:17] <sleon_> hehe
[16:17] <sleon_> toad_, cool
[16:17] <sleon_> toad_, thats nice ,
[16:17] <sleon_> then he could build a good computer for you
[16:17] <toad_> he's trying to get hold of a small origin 2000 rack... apparently you can get them for a few thousand in small configurations
[16:17] <toad_> and he has a nice source of second hand sparc hardware
[16:18] <sleon_> toad_, but what do oyu think would be a dual opteron system enough for simulations?
[16:18] <toad_> sleon_: I'd do it myself if I was going to
[16:18] <toad_> building computers is pretty easy
[16:18] <sleon_> i mean i am considering to buy it in some months
[16:18] <toad_> sleon_: it depends on all sorts of things. if i could parallelize the code well, then nextgens's clusters might be of some use.
[16:19] <toad_> well, gimme a shell then when you get it :)
[16:19] <sleon_> yep
[16:19] <toad_> i had a whole bunch of shells, but i didn't use them for some months and i lost them
[16:20] <sleon_> bad
[16:21] <toad_> hmm, 26 cycles in 15:40ish CPU time... makes 36 seconds/cycle... lets say an average 90% cpu usage, cuts it to 40s/cycle... 378 cycles will take around 15,000 seconds = 4.2 hours
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[16:22] <toad_> sleon_: well i sorta go in phases of simulations and phases of implementing things :|
[16:22] <toad_> i need to juggle them better
[16:22] <sleon_> for how many nodes is this?
[16:23] <toad_> 4.2 hours => 2:40am or so... if I go to bed before that, lets say 10AM tomorrow, would be a lot of cycles... 1041 cycles... surely it will have reached 50% success by THEN
[16:23] <toad_> sleon_: 4000 simulated nodes
[16:23] <toad_> with the new top secret routing :)
[16:24] <sleon_> hehe
[16:24] <sleon_> toad_, i think for freenet projekt you can get with ian nobel prize
[16:24] <sleon_> :D
[16:24] <toad_> sleon_: for what? maybe the ig nobel peace prize, one day...
[16:25] <toad_> ;)
[16:25] <toad_> that's a bit ambitious
[16:25] <toad_> what (ig) prizes are there?
[16:25] <toad_> is there one for computing?
[16:25] <Elly> <Bubbaprog> you know nothing of men :-)
[16:25] <Elly> <Calisa> I know that it's not appropriate to masturbate when you're in the same room as your daughter, thinking it's okay because you think she's asleep.
[16:25] <Elly> <Calisa> I know something!
[16:25] <Elly> <Calisa> He stopped every now and then when he heard my sister shifting.
[16:25] <Elly> <asshat> thats good parenting
[16:26] <toad_> Elly: I2P?
[16:26] <toad_> Elly: #cl even?
[16:26] <toad_> (if you don't know what #cl is you don't want to...)
[16:26] <Elly> toad_: Bash!
[16:27] <toad_> ah
[16:27] <toad_> okay
[16:27] <toad_> phew
[16:27] <Elly> althought it could concievably have come from #cl
[16:27] <toad_> yeah..
[16:27] <Elly> but if it did I wouldn't have gotten it, heh
[16:28] <toad_> okay, where were we? how to parallelize it? d-ArkAngel suggested basically divide the nodespace into two (or N), and for each have a thread and a queue
[16:28] <toad_> which runs the requests from the queue, and then queues them internally, or to the other node's queue, if they need to be continued...
[16:29] <toad_> this assumes we have a nice thread-safe queue class, which surely exists somewhere...
[16:30] <toad_> I don't know what the synchronization overhead would work out to...
[16:30] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d54C32DBA.access.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:30] <toad_> if both threads issued inserts/requests for measurement purposes, it could be made rare that we block on the queue...
[16:31] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d54C32DBA.access.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[16:31] <toad_> hmm, the 4000 node sim just reached 5% success...
[16:31] <toad_> at 4400 requests per node :<
[16:31] <toad_> no
[16:31] <toad_> 440 requests per node
[16:31] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d54C32DBA.access.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:31] <toad_> but still, :<
[16:32] <Elly> I don't even understand what you're talking about =\
[16:32] <toad_> Elly: how do I make the simulator run efficiently on SMP machines?
[16:32] <toad_> or perhaps even clusters?
[16:33] <Elly> I have no idea at all
[16:33] <Elly> but why not just run multiple small sims that intercommunicate?
[16:33] <Elly> one sim per thread
[16:33] <toad_> Elly: that's the idea, essentially...
[16:34] * toad_ wonders if he should tell everyone what we're working on...
[16:34] <toad_> i suppose the i2p'ers already know
[16:34] <Elly> so what's wrong with that idea?
[16:34] <toad_> what I am working on is potentially a general-purpose solution to freenet's main remaining security issues
[16:34] <Elly> I2P is currently more useful than freenet =\
[16:34] <Elly> oh, what is it?
[16:35] <toad_> which would make it usable in regimes where it is illegal to run a node and the state actively pursues node users electronically
[16:35] <Elly> so what _is_ this big idea?
[16:35] <toad_> it won't solve the problem of premix-routing-is-bloody-hard, but it WILL solve the harvesting problem
[16:35] <toad_> Elly: basically, we think that NGR can work on a trusted-links-only network
[16:36] <Elly> uh-huh
[16:36] <Elly> how does a node outside the net gain trust?
[16:36] <toad_> it shouldn't, if it were not for the small fact that interpersonal trust relationships conform to some small-world-like patterns
[16:36] <toad_> Elly: the same way you'd get a gmail account
[16:36] <toad_> it'd have to be invite only
[16:36] <Elly> ah
[16:37] <Elly> that would be a huge pain, don't you think?
[16:37] <toad_> but it'd mean that if They get a node on the network, as they inevitably would, they could not trivially find the entire network
[16:37] <Elly> a freenet network with very few users wouldn't maintain content for long
[16:37] <toad_> whereas right now, They can
[16:37] <Elly> heh, 'They'
[16:37] <toad_> Elly: gmail isn't doing badly
[16:37] <Elly> gmail is different from freenet
[16:37] <toad_> invite only does not necessarily mean small
[16:37] <toad_> what we _may_ be able to build is a global darknet
[16:37] <Elly> how does one set up an invite-only network?
[16:38] <Elly> just add an extra layer of encryption
[16:38] <sleon_> toad_, why is it bad when there are only 440 requests per node?
[16:38] <sleon_> toad_, is it the fitnes of the network?
[16:38] <sleon_> toad_, where you expecting something like > 4000 requests per node?
[16:38] <toad_> sleon_: 440 total requests for each node put into the network in order to bootstrap to the point of the success ratio being 5%
[16:39] <sleon_> 5% to have luck of getting data?
[16:39] <toad_> i would obviously like the number of requests to be lower for the same success ratio
[16:39] <toad_> yes
[16:39] <sleon_> aa so the lower the better?
[16:39] <toad_> Elly: there are loads of practical issues, but if the theory works, the practical issues can be resolved reasonably easily
[16:39] <sleon_> toad_, how is udp port going?
[16:39] <toad_> sleon_: yeah
[16:39] <toad_> sleon_: going okay, have a look at module Freenet0.7Rewrite
[16:40] <sleon_> toad_, is it working already?
[16:40] <toad_> last few days I've been working on the new stuff
[16:40] <Elly> toad_: Umm
[16:40] <toad_> sleon_: no
[16:40] <Elly> what stops freenet from sticking out like a sore thumb in countries where strong crypto is illegal?
[16:40] <sleon_> toad_, how can i look at the changes? web-cvs?
[16:40] <toad_> Elly: okay, maybe they're not easy
[16:40] <Elly> and if someone finds a freenet node
[16:41] <Elly> and then associates an IP with it
[16:41] <toad_> Elly: steganography is possible; and there are very few countries where strong crypto is illegal; they have to have HTTPS in order to do e-commerce
[16:41] <Elly> they can look up that node
[16:41] <Elly> toad_: There's a remarkable corellation between 'hostile' environments and illegality of strong crypto though
[16:41] <toad_> sure
[16:41] <toad_> so?
[16:41] <Elly> and steg would make freenet use a lot more bandwidth
[16:41] <toad_> we haven't solved ALL the problems
[16:42] <Elly> still
[16:42] <Elly> sounds neat
[16:42] <toad_> but without trusted-links routing, if freenet is illegal, it can be very easily removed
[16:42] <Elly> how do you know if you should trust someone?
[16:42] <toad_> because the attacker can find almost the entire network once they've found one node
[16:42] <toad_> and this applies to I2P also
[16:42] <toad_> fundamental design flaw in 99% of DHTs and related things
[16:43] * P4C0 (~kvirc@200.115.153.194) has joined #freenet
[16:43] <sleon_> toad_, are you simulating udp based node?
[16:43] <sleon_> nodes
[16:43] <toad_> Elly: you don't have to trust them with your life, you just have to know them well enough for the small-world network properties to hold
[16:43] <toad_> sleon_: not really, they're quite generic in this particular simulation
[16:43] <P4C0> hi how can I do to save the channel list of a server into a file? (using commands?) if this possible?
[16:43] <toad_> P4C0: wrong channel, #freenode :)
[16:44] <toad_> bbiab
[16:44] <P4C0> toad_: you're right ups, sorry dudes
[16:44] * P4C0 (~kvirc@200.115.153.194) has left #freenet
[16:45] <Elly> toad_: What are the small-world network properties?
[16:45] <sleon_> #kvirc guy
[16:47] <sleon_> toad_, what type of hardware do you have as your workstation?
[17:07] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("CyberLore.net - Recommendations on the best games, freeware and websites.")
[17:10] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
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[21:17] <nick01> hi
[21:17] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-88-210.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[21:17] <nick01> I just started freenet and I can't access 127.0.0.1:888
[21:17] <nick01> :(
[21:18] <toad_> 8888
[21:18] <nick01> yeah
[21:18] <nick01> "the connection was refused"
[21:18] <toad_> support@freenetproject.org, i'm going to bed
[21:18] <nick01> nite
[21:19] <nick01> I have to wait until it downloads 2 gb of data or what ?
[21:20] <nick01> anybody else here ?
[21:20] <nick01> (that can help)
[21:21] <nick01> heh ...
[21:21] <nick01> looks likeit wants me to keep pressing enter :P
[21:21] <nick01> lol
[21:27] * oierw (~mathew@cpe-66-91-35-90.hawaii.res.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[21:36] <Elly> buwahahahahaha
[21:36] <Elly> I just found one of the most tasteless things ever
[21:55] <nick01> what ?>
[22:06] <nick01> I don't know what for but it's using my hard disk a lot- can't even move the mouse right; and I can see the thumbnails to the sitesbut they don't work; can somebody help ?
[22:07] * bryan_W (~is@69.151.14.170) has joined #freenet
[22:07] <nick01> hi bryan_W
[22:07] <bryan_W> hi
[22:07] <nick01> bryan_W, can u help ?
[22:07] <nick01> I don't know what for but it's using my hard disk a lot- can't even move the mouse right; and I can see the thumbnails to the sitesbut they don't work; can somebody help ?
[22:08] <bryan_W> probably not, sorry
[22:08] <nick01> k :/
[22:08] <nick01> I'll ask the next guy :P
[22:22] <Elly> is this your first time running Freenet?
[22:25] <nick01> yes
[22:25] <nick01> I had to kill it and restart it; but it seems to be doing it again :(
[22:25] <Elly> well
[22:25] <Elly> how big did you set your data store?
[22:26] <nick01> the default- 256 I belive it was ?
[22:26] <nick01> anyway- 256
[22:27] <Elly> yeah
[22:27] <Elly> hmm
[22:27] <Elly> how much RAM do you have?
[22:27] <nick01> ?
[22:27] <nick01> 196
[22:30] <nick01> what should I do ?
[22:40] <nick01> anyone ? please ?
[22:40] <Elly> well
[22:40] <Elly> the heavy disk use
[22:40] <nick01> yes ?
[22:40] <Elly> is the java virtual machine being starved for memory
[22:41] <Elly> causing it to swap in and out constantly
[22:41] <Elly> try setting a lower memory max in your config file
[22:41] <Elly> but hmm
[22:41] <nick01> yes it sais maxdirect memory 128 or something like that
[22:41] <Elly> 196 is not really enough for freenet
[22:41] <Elly> 128MB will have it swapping a lot
[22:42] <nick01> where do I change it ? in what file ?
[22:43] <Elly> wherever your java config file is on your platform
[22:43] <Elly> I'm just leaving; I can't really help you any more now
[22:43] <nick01> but I run other jave apps just fine
[22:43] <Elly> freenet is a memory eater
[22:43] <Elly> heh
[22:43] <nick01> it's a freenet setting
[22:44] <nick01> I see it when the script starts
[22:44] <Elly> night
[22:44] <nick01> :(
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[23:02] * brainZzZ (gibe@c-24-18-82-42.client.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[23:18] * sidhu (~root@dynamic-212-087.usc.edu) Quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.11")
[23:24] <nick01> problem fixed- reduced java mem to 64; but now when I try no freesites work :(
[23:27] <nick01> how do I open them ?
[23:28] <nick01> one oppened; but it's sooooo slow :/
[23:29] <nick01> openned
[23:37] <nick01> opened :P
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.