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[0:40] <tomate> hello
[0:41] <tomate> i need a php web hosting for free. Somebody knows one?
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[0:57] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> how many bits long are freenet keys?
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[1:16] <KenMan> how did I miss this paper by Nikita Borisov, from May 04 ? He was linked to by slashdot...
[1:17] <KenMan> hmm, it was a 'qualifying exam' ... still digesting it - http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~nikitab/papers/quals.pdf
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[1:25] <KenMan> makes for a good, stimulating reading. This looks like the source of 'dropping HTL in favor of probabilistic termination' ?!
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[11:24] <TheSeeker> hey wow, my node is still running.
[11:28] <TheSeeker> maybe I should request a membership for devl, I still don't see my patch e-mail there in the archive. :P
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[13:06] <TheSeeker> This may sound dumb, but... in addition to having a data store, would it be possible to share existing files on your hard drive by mapping a key (transparently to the network) to the file on your hard drive? (instead of having the file on your hard drive, then also in your data store)
[13:06] <TheSeeker> or does FEC and/or encryption screw that up?
[13:07] <KenMan> you were right... that sounds dumb :p
[13:09] <KenMan> the whole point of the datastore is that you don't know what is in it. So yes, encryption screws it up.
[13:09] <TheSeeker> A LOT of people just want to share files anonymously, now, publishing all those files without anyone requesting them seems to be a huge waste of network resources. Wouldn't the same level of anonymity be achived by only inserting keys of files you have avaliable and let caching take care of the "single source" problem on it's own?
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[13:10] <KenMan> but, what you suggest has an interesting feature - you could host files permanently. Ahh, looks like that is what you seek :)
[13:10] <TheSeeker> the only way an attacker could know that you're the originating source would be if they surrounded your node completely and watched all yoru traffic... similar attacks would work on inserts though...
[13:12] <TheSeeker> even if I had any working Sim code, it would be INCREDIBLY hard to simulate the difference in network traffic that kind of scheme would cause ... considering that I have no statistical data re: the popularity of files vs size and for how long they remain popular, etc.
[13:14] <TheSeeker> but, even if that was a good idea, which I kindof doubt it is (coming from me) I think I see a mojor conflict with my stance on specialization and routing :P
[13:15] <KenMan> someone worked on a FreeNet solution to the permanent hosting problem. Ask around - I don't remember exactly how it worked. I think a request from the consumer triggered an insertion from the perm provider...
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[13:16] <KenMan> An "addressed" request-to-insert, that is
[13:16] <TheSeeker> In a perfect world, nobody would route requests for the keys you are passively sharing that arent' in your area of specialization :P
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[13:16] <KenMan> well, in a strictly deterministic world, perhaps
[13:16] <TheSeeker> and you very well can't add a tag that says "node X has the files, so route towards node X" :P
[13:18] <TheSeeker> but ... that doesn't stop you from say: inserting at HTL 1 ... in a perfect world that should be sufficient. much less traffic caused by inserts that way...
[13:19] <TheSeeker> or HTL 1+RND(2) (to stay within reasonable doubt territory)
[13:21] <TheSeeker> err, not "reasonable" .. umm... damn, I can't think of the right word :P
[13:25] <TheSeeker> plausible deniability
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[13:26] <KenMan> no good. That's shared deniability, and statistics will reveal the true source in a short period of time.
[13:27] <KenMan> unless, the same group of nodes replicates >everything< . Then they all get busted equally :)
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[13:31] <TheSeeker> you could always insert with a HTL of 1 with a hops value of 20+RND(4) ;)
[13:31] <TheSeeker> "this didn't come from me, it came from someone far away, honest" ;p
[13:32] <KenMan> you are not making the purpose or detail for your suggestions clear.
[13:34] <TheSeeker> It's not a suggestion, it's an idea, a suggestion would imply that I knew what I was talking about, had some idea of how it would be implemented, and thought I knew what impact such an implementation would have on the network :P
[13:34] <KenMan> ahhh, in that case... LUNCHTIME !!
[13:34] <TheSeeker> ideas are quick and dirty things you come up with when bored that usually turn out to be crap.
[13:34] <KenMan> i usually just visit the john once or twice a day...
[13:35] <Ash-Fox> Like, sandpaper
[13:35] <TheSeeker> heh
[13:38] <TheSeeker> Is it safe to assume, then, that the ultimate goal of freenet is the anonymous sotrage and retrieval of extremely small text documents that represent ideas which may be considered dangerous, with absolutely no concern for the number of days it takes to insert or retrieve such an idea? :P
[13:39] <TheSeeker> if that's the case, I'd suggest limiting the key size to 128K and not having splitfiles ;p
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[14:19] <TheSeeker> hmmm 5200-3700=1500 extra 1M keys reported in the node status page vs the number on my hdd...
[14:20] <TheSeeker> I may actually have more 2k, 4k, and 256k keys than 1M ones now...
[14:24] <TheSeeker> my node has been up for 62 hours... I think it will re-integrate quickly if I simply restart the node. I'm interested in the current discrepency between actual datastore and reporteddatastore, and restarting is the only way to get a clear picture of that :/
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[15:18] <TheSeeker> http://fridlekh.bounceme.net/62hDSbefore.txt
[15:18] <TheSeeker> http://fridlekh.bounceme.net/62hDSafter.txt
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[16:37] <toad_> TheSeeker: the key buckets are not the same for the histograms as for the store directories :)
[16:38] <toad_> <TheSeeker> hmm, my 8c request success probability is down to 55% from 77% -- uhhm, either of those numbers is quite extraordinary
[16:39] <toad_> TheSeeker: I don't like your change. I don't want it to reset it. Keep a separate counter maybe, but don't report bogus data.
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[16:41] <toad_> <KenMan> so, you wind up with 99.723% of all your outgoing requests being sent to one insane vacuum-cleaner node.
[16:41] <toad_> good point.. perhaps we need to do some sort of limitation of the node's incoming MRI capacity to make freenet even slower, and ensure that we don't send all the requests to one node?
[16:43] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> toad
[16:43] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> toad
[16:45] <toad_> <TheSeeker> here's a dumb question: ?does "request success probability" use "total requests/total successes" ?or "requests in the last <interval>/successes in the last <interval>" ? - the histogram uses the totals
[16:48] * toad_ ignores the OS flame war...
[16:48] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> toad, I want to tell you something
[16:49] <toad_> <Elly> oh, I don't know about that. Around 30% of home users are still running some variant of 9X. -- only 30%? more like 70% in my experience...
[16:49] <Elly> toad_: I saw a survey somewhere saying 54% of people are running XP at home
[16:50] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> toad, I want to tell you this :
[16:51] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> You are beautiful.
[16:51] <toad_> [01:50] <TheSeeker> you can change it for your node, but any node that sees a request at greater than 25 HTL will drop it to 25 itself assuming they leave that option alone... -- actually 20. and if you override it you blow your anonymity :)
[16:51] <toad_> [01:52] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> interesting. fproxy doesn't complain when i tell it to use 120 HTL. perhaps it just humors me and doesn't tell me that it caps it at 25 =) -- yup
[16:52] <toad_> [04:51] <Cyberstorm> And forgot, which is which? Experimental, Unstable...and erm -- stable
[16:52] <toad_> [05:59] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> how many bits long are freenet keys?
[16:52] <toad_> [05:59] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> how many bits long are freenet keys? -- symmetric is 128, not sure about asymmetric
[16:53] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> I want to give you a hug, toad_
[16:53] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> *HUG*
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[16:55] <toad_> [18:39] <TheSeeker> Is it safe to assume, then, that the ultimate goal of freenet is the anonymous sotrage and retrieval of extremely small text documents that represent ideas which may be considered dangerous, with absolutely no concern for the number of days it takes to insert or retrieve such an idea? :P -- no
[16:55] <toad_> [18:40] <TheSeeker> if that's the case, I'd suggest limiting the key size to 128K and not having splitfiles ?;p -- what about larger files? there are interesting files which are >128k. some of them are web pages! anyway fixed file size IS a good idea but there are issues with it, so we haven't done it yet
[16:56] <toad_> we probably will soon though.. for soon in the next 10 years ;)
[16:56] <toad_> [19:21] <TheSeeker> hmmm 5200-3700=1500 extra 1M keys reported in the node status page vs the number on my hdd... -- interesting, could be an insert issue...
[16:56] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> toad, you will work on Freenet for the rest of your life
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[16:57] <toad_> hi Toast !!
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[17:00] <Toast> Hi Toad, How things?
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[17:02] <Toast> Have there been any intersting results from the simulations lately? There haven't been any graphs posted to the lists in a while.
[17:03] <toad_> well
[17:03] <toad_> they contradict each other
[17:03] <toad_> so i'm writing yet another simulation
[17:04] <Toast> It's sort of painfull waiting with no updates for the theory to get done, but I'm very glad you are doing it.
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[17:05] <toad_> well, i haven't been working much in the past several weeks
[17:05] <toad_> due to a zillion small things, such as christmas, and the software patents mess
[17:06] <Toast> Yes, I expected something like that. I wondered what had happened to your progres reports ... looks like there is a good reason why they stopped.
[17:07] <Toast> Are you still looking for machines to run simulations on?
[17:07] <toad_> well, I did point out several times to the list that the new simulation didn't agree with the old one even when i set it to have the same parameters
[17:07] <toad_> Toast: not right now, but at some point in the moderately near future they'd be useful
[17:07] <Toast> I never realised that was more than small fluctuations.
[17:08] <Toast> I'm off to France for Christmas for a few days. I _may_ be able to give you access to two machines here.
[17:08] <toad_> oooh http://bitzi.com/bitcollider/
[17:08] <Toast> One 1.2GB duron and one AMD64 2400+
[17:08] <toad_> cool
[17:09] <toad_> 2400+?
[17:09] <toad_> does that even exist?
[17:09] <toad_> XP 2400+ surely? or AMD64 3400+?
[17:09] <Toast> perhaps... I forget
[17:09] <Toast> It was a fast one 3 months ago
[17:10] <Toast> (though not the fastest) whatever that was..
[17:10] <toad_> 3400+ then
[17:10] <Toast> I'm sure my geekness is leaking away somewhere... I think it started when I got engaged :)
[17:11] <Toast> I should know that
[17:11] <toad_> :)
[17:11] <toad_> soon you'll be just like ian! ;)
[17:11] <Toast> hahahaah
[17:13] <toad_> ian's gf is a geek too actually
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[17:13] <toad_> and i don't think they're married
[17:13] <toad_> linus is married, and is still a geek :)
[17:13] <toad_> A Message From The Maintainer
[17:13] <toad_> 17th December 2004
[17:13] <toad_> Freenet build 5100 is proving to be an interesting beast.
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[17:13] <toad_> hmmm
[17:13] <toad_> any idea what that actually MEANS?
[17:13] <toad_> is it good, or is it bad?
[17:13] <Toast> My Fiencee is not a geek, but she is wonderfull...
[17:14] <Toast> From the maintainer?
[17:14] <toad_> Content of Evil
[17:15] <toad_> that's his name
[17:15] <Toast> On TFE? CofE doesn't seem to have been updated since september
[17:15] <toad_> yes, on TFE
[17:15] <toad_> okay, what now? I suppose I ought to get the new simulator to compile...
[17:16] <Toast> BTW, why is CofE (as opposed to TFE) still on the front page? He writes some great stuff, but so rairly.
[17:16] <toad_> dunno
[17:17] <toad_> maybe hoping that he will update when the network is feeling better
[17:17] <toad_> he has his bursts of activity though, i'm not sure it has much to do with the network
[17:17] <Toast> Yes... I used to love is page back in the days he always added pictures... not so much for the pictures, but because he always had something to say.
[17:18] <Toast> BTW, my datastore is finally starting to mirror the specilisation of my node.
[17:18] <toad_> hmm, it compiles already...
[17:18] <toad_> your node has a specialization?
[17:19] <Toast> yes. want a flood?
[17:20] <Toast> Reguested keys...
[17:20] <Toast> 0 |======================================
[17:20] <Toast> 1 |==================================
[17:20] <Toast> 2 |=================================
[17:20] <Toast> 3 |========================================
[17:20] <Toast> 4 |===========================================
[17:20] <Toast> 5 |======================================================
[17:20] <Toast> 6 |======================================================
[17:20] <Toast> 7 |=====================================================
[17:20] <Toast> 8 |==================================================
[17:20] <Toast> 9 |===========================================
[17:20] <Toast> a |=========================================================
[17:20] <Toast> b |=============================================================
[17:20] <Toast> c |========================================================
[17:20] <Toast> d |================================================================
[17:20] <Toast> e |====================================================
[17:20] <Toast> f |===========================================
[17:20] <Toast> (inbound)
[17:21] <Toast> ok... the datastore lines don't really corilate that closely now I look again...
[17:21] <Toast> Datastore
[17:21] <Toast> 0 |========================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 1 |==================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 2 |==================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 3 |=================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 4 |==================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 5 |==============================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 6 |==============================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 7 |=============================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 8 |=======================================================
[17:21] <Toast> 9 |======================================================
[17:21] <Toast> a |===========================================================
[17:21] <Toast> b |=============================================================
[17:21] <Toast> c |========================================================
[17:21] <Toast> d |=====================================================
[17:21] <Toast> e |===============================================================
[17:21] <Toast> f |==========================================================
[17:22] <Toast> I would like to see stronger specilisation in the requested keys. I have a 9GB datastore, so I don't expect the datastore specilisation will keep up with the requests assuming the request specilisation changes with time.
[17:22] <toad_> hmmm
[17:23] <toad_> well its a sort-of specialization...
[17:23] <Toast> This is the latest build on the stable network
[17:24] <Toast> It woudl be useful to be able to show only the requests or keys from the last x hours (or 1 day) to make it easyer to track how quickly specilisation changes.
[17:25] <Toast> I had planned to do it with a wget script, but then I realised the requested keys readout is cumlitive, so you would have to reset the node to get useful information and that would affect the results.
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[17:41] <KenMan> toad_: is there anything different in the things you measure in the new sim ?
[17:44] <KenMan> or is it simply a rewrite in the hopes of getting more accuracy (in simulated behavior) ?
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[17:45] <KenMan> are you planning to target solely pSuccess for starters (or at some point) ?
[17:46] <KenMan> NGR uses transfer rates to identify 'faster' nodes, but i think this might be flawed. I mean, peak xfer rates tell you something useful,
[17:47] <KenMan> but average rates won't. I think (# successes completed per time unit) might make a more meaningful measurement.
[17:48] <KenMan> but then, that model would need to consider how many queries got sent out... #successes/#queries (for a fixed time interval)
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[17:59] <KenMan> i suppose a problem with a single spec point (for a route, a datastore, or a routing-table) is that the out-of-spec items become rather easier to analyze.
[18:00] <toad_> KenMan: there are various design changes, but the intention is for it to simulate the same behaviour, if you tell it to
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[18:05] <toad_> well, it compiles
[18:05] <toad_> it even runs... and NPEs
[18:05] * toad_ feels better!
[18:05] * toad_ is most happy when he is working on something that actually does something
[18:05] <toad_> it's a strange thing about my coding...
[18:05] <KenMan> yay, you have recreated NPEs :)
[18:06] <KenMan> a simulation , true to form, huh ?
[18:07] <KenMan> you know, a lot of people work on things that don't actually do anything, but they are happy to get paid either way.
[18:08] <KenMan> it runs counter to the belief that human nature makes all people want to be productive...
[18:10] <toad_> :)
[18:10] <toad_> but I'm not in it for the money, despite being somewhat in debt at the present time
[18:11] <toad_> it's never mattered THAT much to me.. certainly not as much as the feeling I get when I work on something that won't actually do anything for weeks or months
[18:11] <toad_> :)
[18:12] <KenMan> i think that people get used to it: "I accomplished very little meaningful work, but they paid me X $'s last year. Then, this year, I accomplished absolutely nothing, but they paid me X+3 $'s this year. Hmmm..."
[18:13] <KenMan> i mean, every work environment is different, but there are shockingly many that approximate what I describe.
[18:13] <toad_> they rationalize it, and they convince themselves that their dependants need $3X
[18:14] <KenMan> heh
[18:15] <toad_> because they're never there.. because they're busy trying to get $1.5X
[18:15] <toad_> :)
[18:16] * KenMan goes out xmas shopping, with a few $'s
[18:16] * toad_ has 99% finished xmas shopping...
[18:17] <KenMan> MIT must be pissed. They locked out remote access to their MP3 database, after it got posted on /.
[18:18] <toad_> :)
[18:35] <toad_> INSERTS: 200/200=1.0 50/50=1.0
[18:35] <toad_> REQUESTS: 20000/20000=1.0 5000/5000=1.0
[18:35] <toad_> hrrrm
[18:35] <toad_> something tells me there's a bug in the simulator :)
[18:37] <toad_> ah, found it
[18:38] <toad_> INSERTS: 50/50=1.0 50/50=1.0
[18:38] <toad_> REQUESTS: 4837/5000=0.9674 4837/5000=0.9674
[18:38] <toad_> not bad for first cycle...
[18:39] <toad_> this is, of course, 100x99
[18:39] <toad_> with 10 htl
[18:40] <toad_> so you'd expect good results
[18:40] <toad_> what I ought to do is graph it against the old results...
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[18:48] <toad_> bbl zzz
[18:50] * toad_ leaves it running overnight with less logging
[18:50] <toad_> tomorrow do some graphs
[18:51] <toad_> maybe even bring it up to full speed with pcaching and epassing
[18:51] <toad_> and NFC
[18:51] <toad_> non fully connected simulations :)
[18:52] <toad_> bbl anyway
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[20:29] <Elly> eh?
[20:29] <Elly> some random person is DCC chatting me
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[23:30] <TheSeeker> toad: how are the buckets different from the store directories? I thought each key in teh histogram related to one file on the hard drive... at least, at startup the numbers are always exactly the same...
[23:32] <TheSeeker> and about that patch I submitted, as I said in the reply, I have no idea what the person is hoping to catch with that error, but its @#$^ing annoying and makes what would otherwise be a 5 MB log file for 2 days of running be an 80+ MB log file instead.
[23:32] <TheSeeker> I've seen no instance of "consecutive same winner" where the data was any different between the "4 times" and "N times" that it stopped being the same winner at, asside from maybe a second's difference if it was the same winner more than 3000 times or so.
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.