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[3:14] <KenMan> Seeker: I'm not 100% sure of this, but the DS histogram may be counting files that haven't completed yet. And lots of inserts begin but never finish.
[3:22] <TheSeeker> that's terrible if true.
[3:23] <KenMan> well, that's life. I think I found a place to log keys as they get added to the histogram. If we also were to log all inserted and retrieved+stored keys, we could track it down.
[3:24] <KenMan> if it were inserts that just don't get very far, that is a longstanding bug that likely won't be addressed immediately.
[3:25] <KenMan> for whatever reason (i don't really understand it) inserts can get restarted , possibly midway down a chain.
[3:26] <KenMan> thus, we would be examining the behavior down a chain that had been restarted, and the remainder of the insert would never arrive.
[3:26] <KenMan> at least, that's my best interpretation of the situation.
[3:29] <KenMan> The easiest way to analyze the situation is just to log the key for each incoming xfer (inserts and fetches), and compare to the flaky histogram.
[3:30] <KenMan> At a minimum, you should have an accurate histogram at node startup time. After that, well.. you've already detected it :)
[3:31] <TheSeeker> yeah, I always have an accurate histogram at startup...
[3:31] <KenMan> This also could be a form of a slow memory leak, if we create xfer objects that never complete :(
[3:32] <KenMan> we have timeouts for outgoing requests, but I don't know if incoming inserts also have timeouts.
[3:32] <TheSeeker> node's been up 27 hours...
[3:33] <KenMan> you should only see additions to your ghost set of keys... they don't ever disappear, do they ?
[3:34] <TheSeeker> nope. keys reported in the datastore never go down, though the growth of those large peaks has seemed to have stopped, with the extra keys being more or less evenly distributed now...
[3:34] <TheSeeker> for the last 12 hours or so I've been at a scale factor of 0.36xxxx
[3:35] <KenMan> this looks to be a rather complicated accounting bug, not a fault in the datastore code.
[3:35] <KenMan> Let's wait and see what toad thinks about it.
[3:35] <TheSeeker> currently 25288 keys reported, and 23339 keys on my hard drive.
[3:36] <TheSeeker> I'm getting the feeling it had something to do with the initial conditions when joining the stable network ...
[3:37] <KenMan> yeah, nodes had a common (announced) spec that they shared, but that eroded, and now they all have disjoint estimates of your (weak if any) specialization(s)
[3:38] <TheSeeker> I had been running Unstable for a long time, and had a full store, filled primarily with 1M sized keys... when first joining the stable network, and running Frost, I was routing and requesting a huge number of small size keys, and not so many large ones.
[3:38] <KenMan> yup. I think the movieez guys use unstable, and the frost guys use stable. I guess.
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[3:39] <KenMan> If the dominant keysize is 1M, by a large ratio, then someone is using unstable to push around big items.
[3:39] <KenMan> I think it has been that way for the past 6 months or more. Go git 'em, MPAA !
[3:40] <TheSeeker> It seems as I eject more 1M keys from my store, the obvious-error peaks are getting shorter... it'll be interesting to observe once I have 1M keys as a minority...
[3:42] <KenMan> Last I checked, 1M and 4K in stable were competing for the highest key count :)
[3:42] <TheSeeker> I've now got more 4K keys than 1M, and almost as many 256K keys as 1M ...
[3:44] <TheSeeker> passing out now, g;nite
[3:44] <KenMan> 128K keys are child porno, and 256K keys are legal porno. Go git 'em, law enforcement investigators !
[3:45] <KenMan> night seeker , pleasant awakenings.
[3:45] <TheSeeker> node's up until I crash, have fun: http://theseeker.bounceme.net:8888
[4:00] <TheSeeker> before I sleep, quick note that validates one of your earlier statements about the consecutive same winner thing... all the logs for the same 'same winner' have the same timestamp (as in, about 3000 per second can be dumped into the log file)
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[5:49] <i2p_iip> <Michelle> go back to Ireland
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[10:03] <kevloral> g'afternoon all
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[12:49] <hobx> good day and good night to all!
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[13:08] <KenMan> don't eat the dog meat...
[13:09] <KenMan> oh, i missed him .
[13:15] <KenMan> I wonder if the chinese gov't invited him, to thank him for helping build such an easily subverted dissident magnet ?
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[14:30] <toad_> KenMan: you mean like Freegate?? :)
[14:30] * toad_ is not here, will be here later though
[14:36] <KenMan> uh oh. Someone has broken into toad's room, and is typing on his keyboard :o
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[14:39] <kevloral> g'evening all
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[16:36] <KenMan> what happened to all the people who used to say things in this channel ? Lurker city, indeed!
[16:36] <KenMan> of course, the primary purpose of this channel is to discuss freenet development...
[16:42] <KenMan> i am confused in trying to decide whether a node should converge onto a single spec point, or multiple.
[16:43] <KenMan> with multiple spec points, they might each have a different magnitude, so the largest one could be called 'dominant'
[16:43] <KenMan> it comes down to single routes. Is it more efficient to model a single spec point/route, or multiple ?
[16:44] <KenMan> In my simulations, it looks like most routes converged onto a single point, but that is a result of the implementation.
[16:44] <KenMan> i mean, each route still had other spec points, but one of those points generally became dominant quickly.
[16:46] <KenMan> also, if a peer is able to resolve a query with high HTL, that is less meaningful than resolving the same query at a lower htl.
[16:48] <KenMan> and for every minute/hour that elapses after finding a key, that point's value is slowly decreasing. At least, it is if we try to account for shifting specializations.
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[17:39] <Zorix> heh
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[17:43] <TheSeeker> hey meat, I haven't crashed yet
[17:43] <TheSeeker> meat?
[17:43] <TheSeeker> neat...
[17:43] <TheSeeker> I also haven't woken up yet...
[17:44] <Zorix> haha
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[17:46] <Zorix> time to install java
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[17:54] <TheSeeker> here's a dumb question: does "request success probability" use "total requests/total successes" or "requests in the last <interval>/successes in the last <interval>" ?
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[17:57] <TheSeeker> Is there any way of keeping '# of successes in the last N minutes' without having an array that's constantly added to and knocking off values older than N ?
[17:58] <TheSeeker> Am I wrong in assuming we're more interested in the recent performance of the node than the cumulative performance of the node given that the turnover rate of connections on the network is usually much shorter than the average uptime on a node?
[18:00] <Zorix> haha if i was more alert today i mighht be able to answer
[18:01] * Ghost_70761840 is now known as Elly
[18:01] <Elly> my laptop just died
[18:01] <Elly> (the LCD died)
[18:02] <Elly> it has 512MB RAM, a 650mhz CPU, and a 40GB disk
[18:02] <Elly> in other words, a pretty good freenet node
[18:02] <Zorix> slow cpu heh
[18:02] <Elly> well
[18:02] <Elly> it was 800mhz
[18:03] <Elly> but the RAM slowed the FSB down
[18:03] <Zorix> lol ram is cheap
[18:03] <Zorix> get better ram
[18:03] <Elly> I know heh
[18:03] * Elly shrugs
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[18:03] <Elly> 650mhz is fine for a commandline-only unix server
[18:03] <Zorix> unix?
[18:03] <Elly> why not?
[18:03] <Zorix> as in sco unix? :P
[18:04] <Elly> ...no =p
[18:04] <Zorix> ok good
[18:04] <Elly> I dunno
[18:04] <Elly> maybe a BSD
[18:04] <Elly> I've been wanting to play with one of them
[18:04] <Elly> that reminds me
[18:04] <TheSeeker> can't you get to the box externally and control it?
[18:04] <TheSeeker> or use a CRT monitor for startup and then let it run without a screen?
[18:05] <Zorix> probably has a monitor hookup
[18:05] <Zorix> not needed after the initial install
[18:05] <Elly> I do have a spare CRT
[18:05] <Elly> and it does have a monitor hookup
[18:05] <Zorix> because everything can be controlled remote
[18:05] <Elly> that's why I'd use a unix variant
[18:05] <Elly> because they actually have a useable remote command shell
[18:05] <Zorix> slackware
[18:05] * Elly shrugs
[18:12] <Elly> yeah, that's basically what I'll doo
[18:12] <Elly> *do
[18:12] <Elly> plug in the old 17" CRT to the monitor port, boot it up and install red hat
[18:12] <Elly> then I can leave it running
[18:13] <Zorix> haha redhat
[18:13] <Elly> 'haha redhat'?
[18:13] <Zorix> yea the redhat newbs make me laugh
[18:13] <Elly> what's wrong with redhat?
[18:14] <Zorix> they are less than secure
[18:14] <Elly> it'll be behind my NAT
[18:14] <Zorix> i dont even think redhat is free anymore
[18:14] <Elly> it still is
[18:14] <Zorix> im amazed
[18:14] * Elly shrugs
[18:14] <Elly> anyway, what else is wrong with redhat?
[18:17] <Zorix> it attracts newbies
[18:17] <Elly> and this is a bad thing why?
[18:18] <Elly> everyone is a newbie at some point, Zorix
[18:18] <Zorix> because it adds to the insecurity of the internet and thats why ddos nets get created
[18:18] <Elly> I can't think of a DDoS net of redhat boxes.
[18:18] <Zorix> i can
[18:18] <pwk_> far easier to get a DDoS trojan onto a Windows machine than Redhat.
[18:19] <Elly> All the big ones I've heard of are on Windows.
[18:19] <Zorix> actually linux is tons more insecure that windows
[18:19] <Elly> ooo...kay...
[18:19] <Elly> why do you say?
[18:20] <Zorix> i dont talk out of my ass.. i have years of experience
[18:20] <Zorix> heh
[18:20] <Elly> I never said you did
[18:20] <Elly> but I'm asking for an example
[18:20] <Zorix> have you ever seen bugtraq
[18:20] <Elly> yes
[18:20] <Elly> NT bugtraq!
[18:21] <Zorix> if you have ever been up on security news you would have seen that redhat included the most vulnerable services out of any distribution
[18:21] <Zorix> nah not that one
[18:21] <Elly> Zorix: And windows didn't?
[18:21] <Zorix> i never read anything about windows
[18:21] <Elly> about Windows having insecure services?
[18:22] <Elly> turning on remote registry editing by default?
[18:22] <Elly> and remote access by default?
[18:22] <Elly> allowing blank admin passwords?
[18:22] <Zorix> actually remote registry saved my ass one time so im not disabling that on my network heh
[18:22] <Elly> it can screw you over too.
[18:22] <Elly> Quite badly.
[18:22] <Zorix> yea my userinit.exe entry got screwed
[18:22] <Zorix> i couldnt log in
[18:22] <Zorix> remote registry saved me
[18:23] <Elly> so despite the fact that Windows enables all those things by default, you still say it's more secure than red hat?
[18:23] <Zorix> yes
[18:23] <Zorix> its more secure than linux in general
[18:24] <Zorix> you wanna know why?
[18:24] <Elly> Yes, I do.
[18:24] <Zorix> windows is closed source.. a bit harder to find vulnerabilities
[18:24] <Elly> aha. The Microsoft argument.
[18:24] <pwk_> and far harder to get vulnerabilities fixed.
[18:24] <Zorix> that is true as well
[18:25] <Zorix> however a newbie is better on windows than linux
[18:25] <Elly> Whereas with Linux, people can freely audit the code and find problems before they become problems.
[18:25] <Elly> Well actually.
[18:25] <Elly> Cnet did some tests.
[18:25] <Zorix> linux requires a bit higher learning curve and those that start on it make the internet worse for others
[18:25] <pwk_> its silly arguing which OS is more secure, redhat is great with a good admin, Windows is great with a good admin.
[18:25] <Elly> A vanilla XP machine will get infected with a worm in several minutes, if you plug it into a DSL/cable line
[18:26] <Elly> which on the surface makes it seem a tad less secure
[18:26] <pwk_> Elly: while thats true, its also fair to say most worms are targetted at Windows
[18:26] <Zorix> most isps dont even ship plain cable/dsl modems without nat routers anymore
[18:26] <Elly> pwk_: Yes, but being under attack is half of being insecure
[18:26] <Elly> OS/400 is considered secure simply because nobody bothers to attack it
[18:26] <Elly> even though it is not
[18:27] <Zorix> i dont think my network would survive without nat/spi firewall
[18:27] <Elly> my network wouldn't either heh
[18:28] <KenMan> i say, lets build armed robots. One will be linux driven, the other w/WinXP. The robot which remains in the fewest pieces after battle shall be declared the ONLY usable OS, for ANY task. Sound fair ?
[18:28] <Elly> Sounds fair to me.
[18:29] <Elly> except the Windows one should run Windows ME, and the Linux one Red Hat, since they are both apparently the worst of their respective breeds.
[18:29] <Elly> although I personally happen to like redhat
[18:29] <Zorix> at least red hat is fixable in that comparison
[18:30] <Elly> Windows 9X -> no HAL.
[18:30] <Elly> -> insecure.
[18:30] <Zorix> win9x is less likely to be exploited anymore
[18:30] <Elly> oh, I don't know about that. Around 30% of home users are still running some variant of 9X.
[18:31] <Elly> 55% are running XP, 10% other windowses, and the remainder other OSes
[18:31] <Zorix> 9x is quite useless to exploit
[18:31] <Elly> why?
[18:31] <Zorix> because if they dont bother upgrading they are probably dialup aolers
[18:31] <Zorix> which means crap for ddos nets
[18:32] <Elly> still, around 20% of those users are on some sort of broadband.
[18:32] <Elly> Besides, it's not like dialup users don't have credit cards.
[18:32] <Zorix> where u pulling these numbers from
[18:32] <Elly> the 20% one was a guess based on the broadband numbers from the register
[18:32] * Elly shrugs
[18:32] <Elly> it could well be 0%
[18:32] <Zorix> its easier to exploit dcom or lsass than it is to exploit whatever on 9x
[18:33] <Elly> but my point is, as long as people use their computers for anything personal, it is worth it to exploit them
[18:33] <Elly> well, 9X sort of predated the widespread effort to write worms that exploit vulnerabilities, so we don't really know that
[18:35] <Zorix> at this point ill stick to patched xp with a partition for linux
[18:35] <Elly> newbies don't patch =)
[18:35] <Zorix> im not a newbie heh
[18:36] <Elly> as I said
[18:37] <Zorix> hmm frost doesnt seem to work too well
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[18:50] <TheSeeker> what part of it are you having trouble with?
[18:51] <Zorix> nevermind it was just slow
[18:52] <Zorix> i have a new hd and reinstalled my os
[18:52] <Zorix> i just copied stuff from my old hd and i thought maybe it didnt like paths
[18:55] <Zorix> blah its pretty sad when i have to use a 4 year old driver for a scanner made for windows 2000 because the company is too lazy to support anything new
[18:57] <TheSeeker> "don't ask us to support an old product that still works, but a new scanner!"
[18:57] <Zorix> yea visioneer is guilty of that
[18:57] <Zorix> hp seems to support legacy hardware better
[19:05] * Elly is now known as Elly|afk
[19:23] * Elly|afk is now known as Elly
[19:32] <Elly> =)
[19:32] <Elly> We hold these truths to be painfully self-evident / All men are not created equal / Only the strong will prosper / Only the strong will conquer / Only in the darkness of Christ have I realized / God Hates Us All
[19:41] * Zorix (Brandon@fl-65-41-238-135.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:08] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-238-076.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[20:21] <sanity> my girlfriend just got a royal flush in a game of poker
[20:23] <sanity> chances of that: 1 in 31,000
[20:23] * Elly is now known as Elly|UT
[20:24] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("CyberLore.net - Recommendations on the best games, freeware and websites.")
[20:25] * pupok (~r00t@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[20:26] <toad_> Elly|UT: heh
[20:26] <toad_> sanity: that reduces a LOT if she plays many games
[20:27] <toad_> 1 in 31,000 that she gets one in a single game?
[20:27] <toad_> anyway bbl zzz seeya tomorrow should get some considerable work done tomorrow hopefully
[20:28] <toad_> as all xmas stuff is more or less sorted, and the dti meeting too
[20:32] <sanity> not just a single game, her FIRST EVER game
[20:36] <TheSeeker> toad: node is still up, heh. if your IP is the same as it was a couple days ago you should have FCP access again.
[20:42] <TheSeeker> 23933 files on drive: 26399 keys reported in stats.
[20:44] <TheSeeker> the discrepency appears to be dropping the longer I run my node on Stable. so I'm convinced that the cause has soemthing to do with trying to cache a LOT of small files when the store is primarily large keys...
[20:45] * Sugadude (debian-tor@wg55.waag.org) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[20:46] <TheSeeker> 3848 files on my hdd are "at least 900 KB) (including those in temp) whereas 5092
[20:46] <TheSeeker> reported keys are 1M
[20:46] * Sugadude (~Sugadude@serifos.eecs.harvard.edu) has joined #freenet
[20:47] <TheSeeker> that's 1.2 gigs worth of keys that I reportedly have that are not in my store...
[20:48] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> is there an upper-limit on HTL?
[20:48] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> is there an upper-limit on HTL?
[20:48] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> is there an upper-limit on HTL?
[20:48] <TheSeeker> 25
[20:49] <TheSeeker> you can change it for your node, but any node that sees a request at greater than 25 HTL will drop it to 25 itself assuming they leave that option alone...
[20:50] <TheSeeker> so even if you set your node to have a maxhtl of 100, if you make a request at HTL 100, it will still only go 25 hops.
[20:51] <i2p_iip> <stefanboy> interesting. fproxy doesn't complain when i tell it to use 120 HTL. perhaps it just humors me and doesn't tell me that it caps it at 25 =)
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[22:58] * Cyberstorm blinks, surprised to find AshFox here?
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[23:22] <Asciiwhite> hey fellas, im trying to grab files from SSK@ZoZZWiG3Wd0GLteyyIE3AZEdcmQPAgM/tinker/11//
[23:22] <Asciiwhite> "tinker it", but i can't seem to get any.
[23:22] <Asciiwhite> anyone else having any luck ?
[23:40] <Cyberstorm> I've been out of touch with FreeNet lately, where do I get the latest build?
[23:44] <Asciiwhite> www.freenet.org ?
[23:44] <Cyberstorm> Erm...more specifically
[23:44] <Cyberstorm> I thought it was an FTP server?
[23:44] <Cyberstorm> and to look for certain filename?
[23:45] <Asciiwhite> cvs build ?
[23:46] <Cyberstorm> I think
[23:46] <Asciiwhite> http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/
[23:46] <Asciiwhite> here is snapshots
[23:46] <Asciiwhite> http://themes.freshmeat.net/redir/freenet/2871/url_cvs/freenet
[23:46] <Asciiwhite> http://themes.freshmeat.net/redir/freenet/2871/url_cvs/freenet
[23:46] <Asciiwhite> for cvs
[23:47] <Asciiwhite> aah
[23:47] <Cyberstorm> hmm?
[23:47] <Cyberstorm> Ahh/>
[23:47] <Cyberstorm> ?
[23:47] <Asciiwhite> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/freenet/freenet/
[23:47] <Asciiwhite> thats the cvs
[23:48] <Cyberstorm> Cool
[23:50] <Cyberstorm> And forgot, which is which? Experimental, Unstable...and erm
[23:51] <Cyberstorm> "latest"
[23:58] * Asciiwhite (~Asciiwhit@ppp197-125.lns1.syd2.internode.on.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.