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[6:37] <nextgens> I've got a question : Does precalculating and publishing CHK before they are effectively fully inserted hurt the network?
[6:38] <nextgens> Does generating RNF hurt RT ?
[6:39] * nextgens try to insert huge files ... and noone is able to get them as he must be always reinserting :(
[6:43] <nextgens> Does it generate RNF or DNF ?
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[6:50] <nextgens> is anyone awaken ?
[6:51] <dm> I am awoke!
[6:53] <nextgens> :-)
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[8:31] <kevloral> g'afternoon all
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[8:45] <toad_> <nextgens> I've got a question : Does precalculating and publishing CHK before they are effectively fully inserted hurt the network? -- with failure tables, yes. without, probably not, although it does harm your anonymity.
[8:49] <toad_> hi kevloral
[8:52] <toad_> http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Researchers_discover_high_temperature_enables_more_efficient_hydrogen_generation -- that's wierd, I'm sure last time I researched it I found commercial cells that do 90%+ efficiency conversion already
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[9:11] <KenMan> there is near and there is near ;)
[9:13] <KenMan> one wastes 10% of all (future) energy production/consumption of the world, which might be a lot.
[9:16] <KenMan> this is sort of how I compare NGR to DHT - DHT has log(N) hops, max. I don't see how NGR can approach that aspect of DHT, _without_ every node having a universally perfectly consistent external estimate of other nodes' spec
[9:19] <KenMan> in a DHT (without overlapping redundancy), everyone knows and agrees that a particular key belongs on a specific single node.
[9:21] <KenMan> with NGR, i don't see anything that forces this degree of accuracy to occur in a large network. I can see lots of overlapping , where MANY nodes are evaluated to be best matched to a particular key.
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[9:33] <KenMan> well, okay, >maybe< excessive estimator passing can make up for this , all by itself.
[9:33] <TheSeeker> isn't overlap ok, and even desired given enough nodes that all of the keyspace is covered?
[9:33] <KenMan> sure. for redundancy mainly.
[9:34] <KenMan> but if we trust Bob's estimate of Alan, why can't we just trust Alan again ?
[9:35] <KenMan> i personally don't accept the censorship argument as sufficient grounds for this
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[9:38] <KenMan> i hope i don't sound critical, i just desire a better understanding...
[9:41] <KenMan> if NGR is to approach that log(N) performance, then basically, all the nodes who specialize in 'area K' will need to be in close contact
[9:42] <KenMan> And the more areas a single node is allowed to specialize in, the more links necessary to get all the A's through all the Z's together, no ?
[9:42] <TheSeeker> well, that makes sense. I think 1/3 to 1/2 of the open conenctiosn should be have specializations near your own, with the rest evenly distributed among the keyspace...
[9:42] <KenMan> sure, like the 'finger table' in chord ?
[9:43] <KenMan> but, now you imply that you only have a single spec by using the word near. Did you mean "similar" instead ?
[9:43] <TheSeeker> a single node should only specialize in one range of the keyspace, not to exceed N% of the entire range (to be reduced over time determined by overlap to some minimum range for N)
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[9:44] <TheSeeker> "Near" being that the midpoint of your range is included in the range of the node connected to you.
[9:44] <KenMan> careful now, someone is going to club you for that suggestion. Nodes must support at least an infinite number of specialization points.
[9:44] <TheSeeker> lol
[9:44] <KenMan> or so I've been clubbed
[9:44] <TheSeeker> yay for flat datastore key distrobution!
[9:44] <KenMan> ;)
[9:45] <TheSeeker> anyone that says DS key distrobution has nothing to do with routing is full of it :P
[9:45] <KenMan> hey, flat works if everyone has a terabyte disk drive. If we wait another 2-3 years, that is feasible.
[9:46] <KenMan> anyone that claims to understand the "nonexistent" relationship between DS and routing is less full of it :o
[9:52] <KenMan> if routing was any better, we wouldn't need no stinkin' datastores...
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[9:56] <nico_32> hi
[10:01] <TheSeeker> I feel like trying to make a simulation... a simple one, but one that uses ideas I have for how auto-configuration of the network could work... What functions should I have in there? I'm thinking: a small number of nodes that insert new data every X cycles, all nodes requesting random known keys every Y cycles as well as occasionally requesting unknown keys (how often?) Each node would have a random "maxtransfers" value that would prevent routing through
[10:02] <TheSeeker> each key would have a 'file size' (number of cycles it takes to transfer from node to node) in a distrobution similar to what I see in my DS...
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[10:04] <TheSeeker> I'd like to just see how things would self-organize on the connection-only basis, but that would be a bit too simple...
[10:12] <toad_> ssh to www.scabserver.com is still down...
[10:13] <toad_> <KenMan> this is sort of how I compare NGR to DHT - DHT has log(N) hops, max. I don't see how NGR can approach that aspect of DHT, _without_ every node having a universally perfectly consistent external estimate of other nodes' spec -- why does it have to be PERFECT?
[10:13] <toad_> nothing in real life is EVER perfect
[10:13] <TheSeeker> one of the sticking points in my mind is how a network can organize itself if it's ALL newbie nodes ... I'm thinking that if a node has enough conenctions for stable use but less than half of the nodes are already specialized, that the newbie node should examine what areas of the keyspace are covered, then choose the largest configurable range that is centered at the center of the largest 'hole' on specialization observed, then announce to other nodes the
[10:15] <toad_> <KenMan> if routing was any better, we wouldn't need no stinkin' datastores... -- uh, no, we'll always need datastores
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[10:15] <TheSeeker> if more than half the connected nodes are specialized, then the newbie node should choose the largest configurable range that is centered on the most popular area of the covered keyspace instead
[10:15] <toad_> TheSeeker: umm, we DO have an announcement protocol
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[10:15] <toad_> it just picks a random initial spec
[10:16] <TheSeeker> I can't remember ever seeing an announcement succeed :P
[10:16] <toad_> they do
[10:16] <toad_> only not at high HTL :(
[10:16] <toad_> also they don't affect the estimators in the way that is good in the simulations
[10:17] <toad_> okay, now that i've finished participating in flamewars... what should i do now?
[10:17] <toad_> despair about simulations, of course!
[10:17] <toad_> [01:11] <kmag> yea, Sun isn't so good with BigIntegers
[10:17] <toad_> [01:12] <kmag> I found a bug in their primality testing routine
[10:17] <toad_> [01:12] <KenMan> yick!
[10:17] <toad_> [01:12] <kmag> well, I wasn't the first one
[10:17] <toad_> okay, that's bad.. i wonder if we use that code
[10:18] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50-kaput.png
[10:18] <toad_> this is pretty bad too!
[10:19] <toad_> although it's possible that it's tailing off
[10:19] <toad_> even if it does it'll take a crazy number of requests (the X scale is wrong, you need to multiply it by 4)
[10:20] * toad_ goes to get some lunch
[10:30] * toad_ does some more work
[10:32] * toad_ graphs 100x25...
[10:39] <toad_> grrr
[10:40] * toad_ thinks he will rewrite the simulations from scratch
[10:54] <TheSeeker> ooh, fun
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[12:19] <toad_> hmmm
[12:19] <toad_> i have an idea..
[12:24] <toad_> hmmm
[12:24] <toad_> i think i know why the simulations suck
[12:24] <toad_> because of a bug in the old simulations leading to better than expected performance
[12:27] <toad_> sh*t, it is that
[12:27] <toad_> this could be.. interesting..
[12:27] <Redb3ard> hey toad
[12:28] <toad_> hi
[12:28] <TheSeeker> yay?
[12:30] <toad_> argh
[12:30] <toad_> no, it's not
[12:31] <toad_> it's not what I thought it was
[12:31] <TheSeeker> darn
[12:31] <toad_> hey, that's GOOD
[12:31] <toad_> if it had been we'd be in trouble
[12:32] <toad_> although it'd fix the bug
[12:32] <toad_> :(
[12:32] <TheSeeker> :/
[12:37] <hobx__> bla
[12:37] <toad_> hi hobx__
[12:37] <hobx__> superbla
[12:38] <hobx__> good afternoon toad
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[13:10] <Ribs> toad !
[13:11] <toad_> hi
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[13:12] <Ribs> toad_: Cast your mind back, way way back
[13:12] <Ribs> When you asked for a 2 ghz shell to run simulations on
[13:12] <Ribs> and I offered you a pathetic PII 300
[13:12] <toad_> hmm?
[13:12] <Ribs> Well, you now have a choice...
[13:12] <Ribs> Assuming you still want a shell, that is
[13:12] <toad_> I may
[13:12] <toad_> not right now but I may soon
[13:13] <Ribs> Well, I got a server; Cyrix 166+, which is kinda shitty
[13:13] <Ribs> and my desktop, AMD64 3400+, 512MB Ram
[13:13] <toad_> oooh
[13:13] <toad_> that'd be nice
[13:13] <Ribs> bearing in mind, I'd need time to set up the desktop
[13:13] <toad_> I have another AMD64 3000+...
[13:14] <toad_> which I have access to
[13:14] <Ribs> and if you're gonna paraylise it with 100% CPU, I'd like to know in advance
[13:14] <toad_> the cyrix is no good for simulations
[13:14] <toad_> Ribs: that's the problem
[13:14] <toad_> Ribs: whenever I'm running sims, it'd be at 100% CPU...
[13:14] <Ribs> how long does a simulation last?
[13:14] <toad_> that's why I don't run sims here - they interfere with my nodes too much, even if they're niced
[13:14] <toad_> Ribs: roughly forever
[13:14] <Ribs> ahhhh
[13:15] <Ribs> well, I was thinking, that whilst I sleep, you can do what you like with it
[13:15] <Ribs> but that's probabily not much good to you
[13:15] <toad_> I can restart
[13:15] <toad_> you can even do it with a cron tab
[13:15] <toad_> just use pgrep and kill -STOP :)
[13:15] <Ribs> would restarting loose your work?
[13:15] <toad_> restarting across reboots is also possible
[13:16] <toad_> but is a PITA
[13:16] <Ribs> or does it resume?
[13:16] <toad_> since I'd have to knit the logs together
[13:16] <toad_> yes, it has resume
[13:16] <Ribs> hrm
[13:16] <toad_> but it's a PITA
[13:16] <toad_> right now I'm rewriting the simulation code
[13:16] <Ribs> oh, I do have a Althon XP 2600+ here.
[13:16] <toad_> the easy way is just to kill -STOP :)
[13:16] <Ribs> forgot about that machine, heh
[13:16] <toad_> 2600+ XP would be very nice too
[13:16] <Ribs> BUT, it has Windows on it
[13:16] <toad_> hrrm
[13:16] <Ribs> but I'm thinking that won't last
[13:16] <Ribs> :>
[13:16] <toad_> I _can_ use windows, it's just trouble
[13:17] <Ribs> no shit
[13:17] <Ribs> I only installed it two days ago
[13:17] <Ribs> already wanting to reformat the fucker
[13:17] <Ribs> I *think* it's a 2600
[13:18] <Ribs> I need to check
[13:18] <toad_> i have a 2800+ here for my main workstation/server/node/everything
[13:18] <Ribs> actually, the Althon XP has more memory
[13:18] <Ribs> 768mb, if I remember correctly
[13:20] <toad_> that's a plus
[13:23] <Redb3ard> as if i needed more proof that star trek sucks
[13:23] <Redb3ard> voyager rerun, they've recieved a transmission from earth
[13:24] <Ribs> Redb3ard: Why are you watching it then? :P
[13:24] <Redb3ard> so, on a starship that can go faster than light, with computer systems we cant even imagine
[13:24] <Redb3ard> they have to send neelix around to deliver "letters from home"
[13:24] <toad_> heh
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[13:25] <Redb3ard> the writers cant possibly come up wityh anything new
[13:35] <toad_> some of the films are good
[14:20] <toad_> bbiab
[14:35] <toad_> rehi
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[14:43] <KenMan> hej hobx !
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[16:20] <hobx> hello kenman
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[16:21] <hobx> I though I got op back :-(
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[22:45] <TheSeeker> oh yeah, I haven't logged in again since my gregory quests...
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[22:46] <TheSeeker> "Chardonnay tells you, 'Greetings. Have you by chance seen any nymphs in the area. No. Well, it never hurts to ask. I haven't seen a nymph since those undead moved in and I'm getting very....ah well, you know how men get. Why yes, I have Wendall Jackson Grand Reserve in stock and, of course, I always have charm and love potions for sale. Just hand over the coins. Good luck to you and let me know if you see a nymph.'"
[22:46] <TheSeeker> before that...
[22:46] <TheSeeker> Gregory tells you, 'Nice to see you again. You must be a big fan of Darkstaff by now. The drinking and carousing bother you? I find that hard to believe. How can a mug of ale and a little fun occasionally be seen as a fault. Especially in a man who has done so much to help Istaria. I'm not sure I should even trust you with this important task, if you don't admire Darkstaff.
[22:46] <TheSeeker> Oh, so now you say you do admire him. Hmmm. Ok, here is what I need. A man, named Chardonnay, is well known for selling fine wines and special potions. Go to him now and purchase a Charm Potion and a Bottle of Wine. Be sure and get Wendall Hackson Grand Reserve wine, it always impresses the ladies.
[22:46] <TheSeeker> No, absolutely not, I am not going to use the Charm Potion to gain favors from a Lady. Here is a bag of coins and a Map to Chardonnay, now be off, you impertinent welp.'
[22:47] <TheSeeker> Gregory tells you, 'Glad to see you are back and looking healthy. No problems, I hope. You didn't let that Chardonnay sell you one of his over priced love potions, did you? They only work on nymphs, you know.
[22:51] <TheSeeker> That's all I got for now.
[22:51] <TheSeeker> o.O
[22:51] <TheSeeker> lol, wrong room, haha
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
