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[12:34] <fdgdf> why bother with the sub channels, they are empty?
[12:35] <salahx> sub channels ?
[12:35] <fdgdf> topic
[12:35] <salahx> ohh
[12:35] <salahx> well its jsut real quiet now
[12:36] <fdgdf> is anyone aware of any efforts to build another Internet... but one that is more in tune with the philosophies behind freenet?
[12:38] <TheSeeker> I predict that this won't happen until quantum computers are comonplace...
[12:38] <fdgdf> why?
[12:40] <TheSeeker> because the internet likes fast, efficient routing... which generally means everyone being identified and not anonymous ... quantum computers would allow for anonymous interconnects to still be fast and efficient ... hmm, as well as make freenet as it is now insecure...
[12:40] <TheSeeker> theoretically
[12:41] <TheSeeker> RIAA will probably be the first customer of a commercially avaliable quantum computer after various governments get their hands on them... :P
[12:42] <fdgdf> hmm... but the problem isnt the computing power is it? it should be about the infrastructure and how the networking works
[12:42] <fdgdf> itd have to be decentralized hardware
[12:42] <fdgdf> no major backbones
[12:44] <TheSeeker> that would require virtually unlimited bandwidth for everyone using as-of-yet undiscovered properties of physics I think o.O
[12:44] <TheSeeker> otherwise it'd be horribly slow.
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[12:46] <fdgdf> why would it have to be slow.... you could setup a small community LAN, using wired 100mbps and wireless... then link with another community's lan through direct line of sight lasers or microwave or something
[12:46] <TheSeeker> people have a standard expectation of how fast the web is, one of the primary reasons Freenet is seen as "crappy" right now, seeing as it's seen as "internet" application, instead of, say, a form of slow delivery like newspapers or postal services, where 24-48 hours between possible retrievals of information are normal...
[12:48] <fdgdf> there are no routing methods in existence that could be used with our existing prosumer hardware to create something fast?
[12:49] <TheSeeker> that's all well and good to have a fast interconnected network, but someone has to host the files, and people are generally selfish about sharing their HDD space. Additionally, if you distribute information as you do on Freenet then routing times go way up, and people will object to the content that's being placed on their computers.
[12:49] <TheSeeker> To eliminate the content problem you can encrypt everything (getting closer to freenet now) and then you have massive CPU overhead.
[12:50] <fdgdf> im not sure why hosting files would be a problem... if the routing can be somewhat anonymous, then whats the problem
[12:50] <fdgdf> many people would setup dedicated hosts, just because they want to
[12:51] <fdgdf> if there are no ISPs there is no bandwidth charge. all you have to pay for is the hardware and the electricity
[12:51] <TheSeeker> I've seen studies of P2P networks that show that 10% of the people on the network share 90% of the content... the VAST majority of people would rather just get content without sharing anything.
[12:52] <fdgdf> thats fine
[12:52] <fdgdf> theres still plenty of content
[12:52] <fdgdf> :)
[12:52] <fdgdf> isnt the entire internet, and even things like TV like that too?
[12:52] <fdgdf> small # of producers
[12:52] <fdgdf> mostly consumers
[12:53] <TheSeeker> yeah, but in that case the producer gets PAID to be the dupplier of a limited resource
[12:53] <TheSeeker> supplier too
[12:53] * TLF (~francisco@124.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[12:53] <fdgdf> look at the pirating scene. lots of people sacrifice to get the goods out
[12:53] <fdgdf> no money
[12:53] <fdgdf> they want to
[12:54] <fdgdf> i would setup an entire server farm if it were on a hardware based freenet
[12:54] <TheSeeker> a very small number of people do that, more people pirate to make bootlegs and sell them...
[12:55] <fdgdf> well we just need an economy to support it. im sure it can be done. but we need the network
[12:56] <TheSeeker> freenet would have to be "finished" first before you could make hardware for it... hmm, but perhaps Transmeta could get around that with their reprogrammable code based pcu architecture. but I still wonder how easily that could be accomplished.
[12:57] <fdgdf> well freenet as it stands would be greatly changed. it would no longer be a layer... it would become the default protocol
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[12:57] <fdgdf> we wouldnt use existing net protocols
[12:58] <TheSeeker> freenet as it stands doesn't seem to be designed to be a protocall...
[12:58] <TheSeeker> protocol? whatever :P
[12:59] <fdgdf> right... but the philosophies and theory could be utilized. the geniuses behind freenet and other such projects could get together and start from scratch to build a real network based on the ideas
[12:59] <fdgdf> not a layer on top of this crap network
[12:59] <TheSeeker> hen it's no longer freenet, but something else...
[13:00] <fdgdf> same goals as freenet.... but taken to the limit
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[13:00] <TheSeeker> I don't see TCP/IP as being crap .. seems to work a lot better than anything I could come up with :P
[13:01] <fdgdf> well i dont know enough about the tech details, but im not sure itd fit in nicely with an internet that was built to be indestructable, and completely free
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[13:07] <fdgdf> the problem with freenet, is even if we can perfect it and make it fast... it is still on someone else's property
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[13:08] <fdgdf> but i guess we dont have a choice right now
[13:08] <fdgdf> one step at a time
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[13:09] <fdgdf> of course, if the Internet becomes locked down before we figure out the technologies necessary, then it's too late
[13:14] * TLF (~francisco@251.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[13:14] <salahx> well all teh existing ISP use the normal protocols, to create a whole NEW internet we'd need our own eown routers, backbones, etc.
[13:15] <salahx> And this project is ALREADY underfunded :)
[13:16] <fdgdf> yes. we wont have isps. we need a way to use cheap networking hardware, home routers, nics, hubs, etc, and adapt it to a new net
[13:16] <KenMan> if a Newspaper, blown by some wind, travels through a forest, does anyone read it ?
[13:16] <salahx> well once coudl do so with enoguh wireless netowrking equipment, but ther are other projects trying to do that
[13:17] <fdgdf> like what
[13:17] <fdgdf> isnt wireless too slow and crummy
[13:18] <TheSeeker> 54 MBit is pretty zippy.
[13:18] <TheSeeker> 802.11g
[13:18] <salahx> Comapred to current FReenet speed 54 MBit is liek teh speed of light :)
[13:19] <fdgdf> any links to these efforts for creating a wireless internet/
[13:19] <TheSeeker> here's the Q... how do you do commerce, or database driven websites on a distributed network?
[13:19] * KenMan is now known as Eye2PeeAyAyPee
[13:20] <salahx> http://www.linksyscommunitynetwork.com/ :)
[13:20] <fdgdf> TheSeeker id think that the entire internet needs to be treated like 1 huge database
[13:20] <fdgdf> TheSeeker its have to have some kind of self-healing
[13:21] <fdgdf> salahx thats pathetic
[13:22] <TheSeeker> perhaps, but how do you perform a query on a database containing 3 tables of and 3 million entries each and get results in less than 3 months?
[13:22] <salahx> ITs an old April Fool's Joke
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[13:23] <fdgdf> TheSeeker well i mean everyone will have their own database... but its all on 1 hard drive... the virtual net drive
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[13:40] <TheSeeker> I'm talking about commerce... customer databases, sensative information, encryption will help that but there's still the matter of people having an expectation of dymanic pages and the ability to execute cgi scripts... even if I can handle storing someone else's data, there's no way I'm executing someone else's code.
[13:40] <fdgdf> i dont think we should use a storage system like freenet
[13:40] <fdgdf> i think you should host your stuff on your drive
[13:42] <TheSeeker> then we get back to the "everyone needs a supercomputer for that to work" problem .
[13:45] <fdgdf> why, you dont need a super computer to run mysql
[13:56] <salahx> mysql isn't a REAL database
[13:57] <fdgdf> huh?
[13:57] <fdgdf> then wtf is it
[13:57] <fdgdf> a fake one?
[13:58] <fdgdf> you can use whatever server software you wish
[13:58] <fdgdf> just like you can now
[13:58] <salahx> its synthetic database subsitute
[13:58] <salahx> Does mySQL even do trasactions ?
[13:59] <fdgdf> ?
[14:00] <fdgdf> you dont even know what mysql is
[14:00] <fdgdf> it is a full fledged database server
[14:00] <fdgdf> "Multiple storage engines including full transaction support with commit, rollback, crash recovery and low-level locking capabilities. You can select from a range of storage engines from fast in-memory operation to full transaction support and clustering for high-availability."
[14:01] <salahx> well it didn't at one time
[14:01] <TheSeeker> you can't do that over freenet, and if you restrict it to a single node, you lose almost all benefits of distributed content storage (or at the very least you make retrieval extremely slow)
[14:02] <fdgdf> :(
[14:03] <salahx> for that, i2p might be bnetter,. Freenet is more suited to stateless bulk data transfer
[14:04] <TheSeeker> say I sell stuff, and have the DB on my computer that just links to keys with images that go to the products... when someone loads the list of products page, not only do they have to wait for my slow ass PC to generate a page, they also then have to ask the network to route a bunch of keys and return the data
[14:05] <TheSeeker> add anonymous routing to the mix, and you can forget about any form of real-time interaction... I don't see how you could ever do an e-bay type service over such a network
[14:06] <fdgdf> ok. well its time to start a project from scratch to figure all these things out and design a system that will work
[14:08] <TheSeeker> feel free, nobody's stopping you :)
[14:08] <fdgdf> i was hoping someone else was already doing it
[14:09] <fdgdf> :P
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[15:10] <Ribs> toad_ my man!
[15:10] <Ribs> you there?
[15:12] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> he is sick with flu :(
[15:12] <Ribs> ouch
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[15:15] <Ribs> I have that 2ghz shell he wanted :/
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[15:20] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <a-non> toad may appear in the next 5 hours... or not...
[15:21] <Ribs> Eye2PeeAyAyPee: Kinda useless without knowing when that was said :/
[15:22] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <a-non> it was said right now. Look at your watch , man !
[15:22] <Ribs> whaaa?
[15:22] <Ribs> That looked like a quote
[15:24] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <george> no, this is the new cool anonymouse gateway. Everybody is using it. Regular IRC is so passe.
[15:25] <Ribs> I see
[15:25] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <thorn22> hey man, don't invite those ignorant newbees. We got more than we can handle already.
[15:25] <Ribs> So why did Eye2PeeAyAyPee appear to say something without quoteing it?
[15:26] <Ribs> thorn22: I have no intention of joining your 'cool' network
[15:26] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <loopy> I think it was the admin testing it out, setting it up.
[15:26] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> <admin> it works real cool now.
[15:26] <Eye2PeeAyAyPee> see ?
[15:26] * Eye2PeeAyAyPee is now known as KenMan
[15:28] <KenMan> I'm just trying to fill in the void. We must have lost virtually all of this channel's participants when the gateway went away :(
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[17:05] <Freddy2> hi
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[17:23] <Freddy2> is there any place for getting concrete information about freenet design? (architecture, proposal, etc)
[17:24] <Freddy2> (well.. someone without including project's page itself, of course)
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[17:46] <toad_> Freddy2: hi
[17:46] <Freddy2> hi
[17:47] <toad_> what exactly were you interested in?
[17:47] <Freddy2> i have to do an investigation job about something related to security (or similar) topics..
[17:48] <Freddy2> at this point i've decided to talk about the motivation of freenet, it's architecture and how it does for granting that people can share information anonymously
[17:49] <toad_> cool
[17:50] <toad_> what do you need to know?
[17:51] <Freddy2> hmm primary the global strategy that provides anonimity
[17:52] <Freddy2> i'd liked to know how is located the information over the network, how to recover it when you're going to download something..
[17:53] <toad_> you read the papers?
[17:53] <Freddy2> i'm going to do it tomorrow.. i'm here for searching extra information (if available/necesary)
[17:54] <Freddy2> is al this shown there?
[17:54] <Freddy2> is all this shown there?
[17:54] <toad_> mostly
[17:54] <toad_> :)
[17:55] <Freddy2> ok :)
[17:55] <Freddy2> thx
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[18:38] <dm> What do you guys think of I2P?
[18:41] <dm> It seems to provide equal if not better anonymity, with very low latency and decent throughput (10KB/s without parallel streams). No distributed data store as of yet though.
[18:42] <Freddy2> what's i2p?
[18:42] <dm> www.i2p.net
[18:45] <Freddy2> the idea seems to be very simple but.. does it provide such a "great anonymity" like freenet?
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[18:47] <dm> Well, freenet (if it worked) provides plausible deniability.
[18:47] <dm> With I2P, if you use enough hops, you can protect yourself entirely. But there is no network to store your data, so you have to host it. For now.
[18:50] <Freddy2> i think the structure of i2p is too much simplified (probably thinking more in performance than in anonimity) and is not the right way (obviously i've only read a few lines about its design.. xD)
[19:03] <toad_> :)
[19:03] <toad_> it doesn't do what freenet does
[19:03] <toad_> freenet, if it worked well, would work a lot better than raw i2p for some things
[19:04] <toad_> and it would continue to be not good for things such as real time chat
[19:06] <Freddy2> toad_: what does it mean "if it worked well"? doesn't work "well"? XD
[19:08] <toad_> :(
[19:08] <toad_> as you may have heard, freenet does not currently work as well as we hope it may one day do..
[19:08] <toad_> some people would say that in rather less civil language
[19:09] <toad_> especially with nodes that are new to the network
[19:09] <Freddy2> can i suppose that is difficult to manage dinamic nodes in order to keep available all data? is it?
[19:15] <toad_> it is difficult to do what freenet does
[19:15] <KenMan> Freddy2: FreeNet does not aim to retain 100% of all data inserted. Rather, it is designed to retain the content which is most popular.
[19:16] <Freddy2> indeed
[19:17] <KenMan> Freddy2: toad may disagree with me, but we still have lots of room for improvement when it comes to "dynamic node/peer management"
[19:17] <Freddy2> (i'm spanish but i think i've seen too much chapters of stargate sg-1.. it's very common to hear this word there jeje)
[19:18] <Freddy2> ok
[19:19] <KenMan> right now we prefer to have peers that (help here out toad) offer the highest success
[19:19] <KenMan> what I think we are lacking is a strict design to provide keyspace coverage, maybe I am way off.
[19:20] <KenMan> toad_ - i adapted your sim into something much like a DHT, but with hops and pcaching and stuff
[19:20] <Freddy2> if you do it so freenet should become essentially similar to bittorrent, where files can be downloaded at certain periods, and after then it becomes unavailable (something that doesn't use to happen at emule, for example)
[19:21] <KenMan> The *only* way to stick near to 100% pSuccess is for nodes to force the spec of their stores (drop the items most 'out of spec')
[19:21] <toad_> KenMan: there is near and there is near
[19:21] <toad_> we can't get 100% realistically
[19:21] <toad_> so what? 95% will do
[19:21] <toad_> maybe 90%
[19:21] <toad_> maybe even 80%
[19:21] <toad_> 20%, which is around where most of your sims have been, will NOT do
[19:21] <KenMan> i mean, without that feature, the DHT-like thing stays below 90%
[19:22] <toad_> not necessarily
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[19:22] <KenMan> I know, I'm just looking at things. Curiosity can't kill my cat, because I don't have one.
[19:22] <toad_> it can kill you, of course :)
[19:23] <KenMan> I have infinitely more than 9 lives, don't you worry 'bout me ;)
[19:23] <Freddy2> hehe
[19:24] <toad_> if the sims can prove that freenet doesn't work, we'll deal with that
[19:24] <toad_> but i don't think they have yet
[19:24] <KenMan> so who crushed bitTorrent, do you suppose ? RIAA doesn't make for a very detailed conspiracy theory. Now, SUN would be interesting, perhaps the French secret spy service.
[19:24] <toad_> crushed? it's doing phenomenally well!
[19:24] <toad_> it makes up 20% of internet traffic iirc
[19:24] <toad_> maybe 10%
[19:24] <toad_> a LOT
[19:24] <KenMan> Someone DDoS'ed all the trackers
[19:25] <Freddy2> who knows..
[19:25] <toad_> you can't DDoS _all_ the trackers, because there are zillions of them and the only way to find them is to find the torrents they serve
[19:25] <dm> Why does freenet provide better anonimity than I2P?
[19:25] <KenMan> put it out of business for 10 hours or something... I don't read the details, just the headlines.
[19:25] <toad_> dm: I told you, it doesn't have to
[19:26] <toad_> dm: but one reason is I2P has 100 users and freenet has 10,000 users :)
[19:26] <toad_> I2P has technically better anon than freenet in some obvious ways
[19:26] <toad_> but there ARE problems with any mixnet
[19:26] <toad_> even oskar seems to admit this now :)
[19:26] <toad_> but fundamentally freenet does a different thing
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[19:26] <dm> I don't think the number of users on each network at this point has any relevance in the long-term decision of which one will be better for anonimity, but alright.
[19:27] <dm> Freddy2: http://www.i2p/how_networkcomparisons
[19:27] <toad_> .net
[19:27] <dm> oopsie! thank you toad.
[19:28] <dm> Freddy2: http://www.i2p.net/how_networkcomparisons
[19:28] <Freddy2> ok ok, i'm looking at this url
[19:29] <toad_> freenet and i2p have _very_ different attacks
[19:30] <toad_> and substantially different uses
[19:30] <KenMan> toad - you know anyone who has a juicer ? who can make you fresh OJ ? it make not help your flu, but it tastes SO DAMNED GOOD !
[19:31] <toad_> if freenet ever works properly it should provide BT level performance for not just popular large files but also moderately popular large files, for example
[19:31] <dm> I love this part about jrandom's analysis of freenet:
[19:31] <KenMan> but it is NOT well-suited for point to point (one pub, one sub) comms.
[19:31] <dm> "At the very least, Freenet does provide substantial anonymity against an attacker who does not have the resources necessary to analyze it further."
[19:31] <dm> LOL! Well said :p
[19:31] <toad_> right, freemail is a hack, although perhaps a useful hack
[19:32] <toad_> heh
[19:32] <KenMan> well, freemail effectiveness certainly would not be expected to scale with net size !
[19:32] <toad_> KenMan: I don't know
[19:32] <toad_> one measure of whether freenet works is whether push/pull tests work (most of the time)
[19:32] <dm> Let's be honest, the number 1 problem with freenet (all theory put aside) is the lack of progress in functionality over time.
[19:32] <toad_> if push/pull tests work mostly, then with constantly up freemail polling every half hour or whatever, it ought to work reasonably
[19:33] <KenMan> our push pull tests, when conducted from one "in node" and one "out node" make an interesting study.
[19:33] <toad_> dm: s/functionality/performance
[19:33] <toad_> dm: we've had lots of functions implemented :)
[19:33] <toad_> a few of them have actually improved performance :)
[19:33] <dm> functionality != features
[19:33] <toad_> some of them have made it worse
[19:33] <dm> how well it 'functions' :P
[19:34] <toad_> we're trying to get rid of them :)
[19:34] <dm> alright. Let's agreeon 'usability' :)
[19:34] <KenMan> in a DHT, one (or a small redundant set of) node is universally known to be responsible for one area of keyspace. We surely don't have that.
[19:35] <toad_> arguably a big problem is the lack of a rigorous basis; some work on the theory, and the simulations, may provide a much better basis, and let us test stuff effectively before deploying it
[19:35] <toad_> unfortunately the simulations are buggy :(
[19:35] <KenMan> if we can't identify "the" node responsible for storing (fmail KenMan->toad) , it becomes a matter of chance and (anon-reducing) retries
[19:36] <dm> It
[19:36] <KenMan> but they still show things. This makes it better, and that makes it worse.
[19:36] <toad_> KenMan: by definition, for push/pull tests to work, the paths to a given keyspace must converge when started from different nodes, most of the time
[19:36] <toad_> KenMan: otherwise freenet is no longer a single global-horizon network
[19:36] <dm> It's all buggy. At one point you need to decide to start with a clean slate.
[19:36] <dm> you, not specificall you, general you :)
[19:37] <toad_> dm: and then you get a whole new set of bugs to debug
[19:37] <toad_> hmmm
[19:37] <dm> I dunno, I don't work on the code. To me it seems obvious that it's out of control.
[19:37] <toad_> I can't believe we have 12 freesites updated on FIND
[19:38] <toad_> just today
[19:38] <toad_> i wonder if that's accurate
[19:38] <toad_> dm: so we should do what, exactly?
[19:38] <toad_> admit defeat and work on I2P?
[19:39] <dm> Throw all the core code away. Keep the stuff around it.
[19:39] <Freddy2> toad_: xDDDD
[19:39] <dm> Start with a network of 10 nodes again.
[19:39] <toad_> dm: we have simulated small networks
[19:40] <toad_> we have tested them even locally, all running on the same node
[19:40] <toad_> and with 10 nodes you won't have any actual routing happening
[19:40] <toad_> that's the fundamental problem
[19:40] <dm> Alright, fuck implementation entirely then.
[19:40] <toad_> anyway i really need to go to bed
[19:40] <toad_> dm: well
[19:41] <toad_> dm: there are bugs in the impl
[19:41] <dm> Work on the math. Prove that it works.
[19:41] <toad_> but that's not the only problem
[19:41] <toad_> the fundamental problem is that there are bugs in the architecture
[19:41] <toad_> hence simulations, and math
[19:41] <dm> SCRAP THE ARCHITECTURE
[19:41] <toad_> I have no chance of doing the math, and I'm not paid for it
[19:41] <dm> patch after patch after patch
[19:41] <toad_> oskar might come up with something; there were some promising results
[19:41] <dm> build after build after build
[19:41] <toad_> I have written some simulations however
[19:42] <toad_> unfortunately even the simulations, despite being pretty small, are buggy
[19:42] <dm> Sorry, I don't mean to sound negative.
[19:42] <toad_> the nastiest bugs happened after I refactored it to be less horrible, and to add serialization :(
[19:42] <dm> As I said, I have not worked on the code. This is just an outside looking in perspective.
[19:42] <toad_> dm: I don't mean the way to code is organized, that's micro-architecture
[19:42] <toad_> I mean the network architecture
[19:42] <toad_> the fundamentals
[19:43] <dm> The only thing I can reproach really is that time when everyone refused to go back to a build that was working great.
[19:43] <toad_> the routing algorithm etc
[19:43] <toad_> it wasn't
[19:43] <toad_> that was fiction
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[19:43] <toad_> somebody tried it out with maybe 100 nodes and it worked pretty well
[19:43] <toad_> big friggin deal
[19:43] <dm> It wasn't fiction, I was there. You could say it was the network and not the code, but that was not proven.
[19:43] <toad_> if you build a tiny network of course it will work better
[19:43] <dm> There was over 1000 nodes in the network when it was working.
[19:44] <toad_> it might well have been the network too
[19:44] <dm> I remember Ian getting all excited that he was getting 100KB/s. And as he should, because he was.
[19:44] <toad_> but the forked network was small
[19:44] <Freddy2> a 1000 nodes network is really a small network..
[19:44] <dm> I'm not talking about the forked network.
[19:44] <dm> I'm talking about before, when the network was working really well.
[19:44] <dm> Then it degraded, then a few months later there was a fork.
[19:44] <toad_> he WAS using 100 threads, you know
[19:45] <toad_> what do you get now, best case, on popular files?
[19:45] <dm> Anyway, we'll never know now. No point discussing it.
[19:45] <toad_> not you dm, but anyone else??
[19:45] <toad_> i suppose so
[19:45] <toad_> I'm quite prepared to abandon the network architecture
[19:45] <dm> But I remember myself the network working great, everyone agreed it was great. Then it went to shit and nobody looked back. Just more patches to fix what might have caused the downfall, but did not lead anywhere.
[19:46] <dm> Anyway, I don't mean to sound negative. I hope it picks up again.
[19:46] <toad_> but ONLY if I can prove, in simulation, without sim bugs, that the system simply doesn't work, can't work, and can't scale
[19:46] <dm> But it's depressing to watch a little bit.
[19:46] <toad_> dm: hence simulations
[19:46] <toad_> dm: we don't really know what the results of a patch ARE
[19:46] <toad_> dm: for many reasons
[19:47] <dm> Sims are good!
[19:47] <toad_> dm: whereas if we can simulate it, we can determine whether a patch will have a positive effect (hopefully) before we implement it
[19:47] <dm> Anyway, I'll just wish you good luck. You need to go to bed anyway.
[19:48] <Freddy2> yeah, it's bedtime
[19:48] <Freddy2> good night
[19:48] <dm> nite freddy
[19:48] <toad_> good night
[19:48] <TheSeeker> toad_: do the simulations recreate every aspect of a node, or is stuff missing?
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[19:48] <toad_> TheSeeker: simulations are of course simplified models
[19:48] <toad_> like any simulation of anything
[19:49] <TheSeeker> :(
[19:49] <toad_> so we leave out things like connection negotiation
[19:49] <toad_> if you want to have everything, make a testnet, but even then, you lose many of the complexities of real, untraceable, anonymous, use
[19:49] <TheSeeker> how about things like bandwidth differences?
[19:49] <dm> Did you try simulated with the actual router code? I don't remember if you did or not.
[19:49] <toad_> TheSeeker: I was going to simulate load balancing
[19:50] <toad_> TheSeeker: but it's hard enough to simulate without it :(
[19:50] <toad_> dm: not the actual routing table, but the actual KeyspaceEstimator's, and a reasonable approximation of the overall estimator formula
[19:50] <toad_> s/actual routing table/actual RoutingTable
[19:50] <kmag> toad: Are you writing your simulations in Java?
[19:51] <toad_> of course. and it's not THAT slow. major speedups come from making it work more efficiently (and not using bigint math, and when you need to use it, using native code for it)
[19:51] <TheSeeker> toad: so in the simulation each node has "unlimited" bandwidth? Meaning that the sims will *only* tell you how well keys are being routed on a perfect network?
[19:51] <toad_> TheSeeker: we can adapt it to simulate load balancing if we need to
[19:51] <kmag> toad: Using any special simulation tools or libraries?
[19:51] <toad_> but right now I want to show that freenet can work and scale in an ideal world
[19:52] <toad_> kmag: a fair bit of code from fred, but not much else
[19:52] <dm> "but right now I want to show that freenet can work and scale in an ideal world"
[19:52] <toad_> we don't simulate individual messages, overlapped requests, bandwidth use, or a lot of other things
[19:52] <dm> how many years after the project started?!
[19:52] <toad_> dm: with NGRouting :)
[19:52] <dm> Better late then never I guess.
[19:53] <dm> Does it work and scale without NGRouting?
[19:53] <toad_> dm: there are sims for classical routing, although there's some debate over whether they are particularly valid and whether they show logarithmic scaling
[19:54] <toad_> in any case it'd take a lot for me to ditch NGR - freenet is far less appealing without it
[19:54] <kmag> Are there claims that NGR reduces scalability?
[19:54] <toad_> the old sims seem to show log scaling, but might show merely sublinear (O(n^0.28))
[19:54] <dm> FreenetProject has determination on its side, I'll give you that much.
[19:54] <toad_> kmag: there are claims about all sorts of things :)
[19:55] <toad_> dm: :)
[19:55] <TheSeeker> NG routing sounds too PRish like Windows NT :P
[19:55] <toad_> :)
[19:55] <toad_> well what would you call it? :)
[19:55] <TheSeeker> "this is next gen because we say so" >.<
[19:56] <kmag> v2 routing?
[19:56] <toad_> besides NT beats the proverbial out of win95
[19:56] <toad_> :)
[19:56] <TheSeeker> YAURA? (yet another useless routing algo) ?:P
[19:56] <toad_> lol
[19:56] <toad_> bbl zzz
[19:57] <dm> It is true that calling something Next Generation when it hasn't been proven to work does make it easy to take the piss out of :)
[19:57] <kmag> has fishtools been inserting correctly lately?
[19:57] <toad_> dm: how do you prove it to work without building it?
[19:57] <dm> Analysis?
[19:57] <toad_> dm: we have sims of classical routing and they are still debated, and of course they are ideal world, they don't simulate load, and so on
[19:58] <dm> The fact that classical routing is debated does not make the unproven nature of NGR any more bearable for me :)
[19:58] <toad_> dm: you cannot PROVE that a practical system actually works
[19:58] <toad_> try to prove that a program is bugless sometime
[19:59] <dm> Theory.
[19:59] <toad_> you cannot have a perfect simulation
[19:59] <dm> Not implementation.
[19:59] <toad_> BUT there are problems in freenet with theory as well as implementation
[19:59] <toad_> so we need to address them with simulations
[19:59] <toad_> and perhaps with maths
[19:59] <dm> Yes :)
[20:00] <kmag> Who needs real math, just throw more CPU power at the problem :-D
[20:00] * dm offers toad a pillow.
[20:00] <toad_> oskar is close to proving that greedy routing with LRU connections scales log for routing to a location
[20:00] <toad_> that is unfortunately a LONG way away from anything solid about even classical routing
[20:01] <toad_> anyway
[20:01] <toad_> bbl zzz
[20:01] <KenMan> night toad, rest up well.
[20:01] <kmag> g'night toad
[20:01] <KenMan> And try to find some fresh OJ, it is really yummy...
[20:01] * toad_ doesn't get along with orange juice :(
[20:03] <TheSeeker> is it possible to run java programs through a profiler?
[20:03] <dm> im sure it is
[20:03] <kmag> yes, there are java profilers
[20:04] <kmag> there is even a C API for getting at the built in profiling functionality of the Sun JVMs
[20:05] <TheSeeker> I've got something called "glowcode" and it produces a dizzying amount of data when I run a game through it which has shitty performance and I'd like to see improved... I've come to the conclusino that the core that aws licenced is CRAP :P
[20:06] <kmag> I used a java profiler for my undergrad thesis
[20:06] <TheSeeker> hmm, would there be any difference using javaw.exe instead of java.exe?
[20:06] <kmag> I forget which one, though
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[20:06] <KenMan> toad - try banana and milk in the blender, maybe with some chocolate or vanilla for flavor.
[20:06] * MaDsKiLLz (~Billy@d14-69-39-34.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
[20:06] <TheSeeker> ah, wait, javaw is what's loading, nevermind.
[20:07] <KenMan> people recently put freenet through its paces with profiling... resulted in some upgrades in just the right places
[20:07] <KenMan> maybe as much as 3 months back, but several of us did it.
[20:08] <KenMan> iakin (not seen for a while) built the native bigint stuff as a result
[20:09] <KenMan> seems like 3 or 4 others were working at it too. Iakin's change made a huge speed/CPU difference.
[20:09] <KenMan> but what we need to improve is network arch, as toad just said above. Something that a profiler doesn't help much with :(
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[20:09] <kmag> Sun JVMs don't use native methods for BigIntegers?
[20:10] <KenMan> well, iakin attached the GMP library via JNI, and things went fwoosh !
[20:10] <KenMan> apparently the native BigInt support isn't so grand
[20:10] <kmag> yea, Sun isn't so good with BigIntegers
[20:11] <kmag> I found a bug in their primality testing routine
[20:11] <KenMan> yick!
[20:11] <kmag> well, I wasn't the first one
[20:11] <KenMan> still, it is hard for just one company to maintain a langperating system for so many different computer types.
[20:12] <KenMan> they could always open source java, that might make a difference. Or not.
[20:12] <kmag> well, it took me all of one afternoon to implement a routine in Java that was both faster and worked correctly
[20:13] <kmag> I was shocked that my implementation ran faster
[20:13] <TheSeeker> hmm, ok, how would I start Freenet manually using a "javaw.exe <args> command? just [path\]javaw.exe freenet.jar (started in [path\]freenet)
[20:13] <dm> You underestimate yourself.
[20:13] <KenMan> but that is my point - if SUN offers a native method for something, it ought to work. It would hurt less to simply not offer the buggy version in the first place.
[20:14] <KenMan> native - meaning under java.sun.whatever
[20:14] <kmag> I wasn't even really going for speed so much, I basically translated about 20 lines of text from Applied Cryptography into Java
[20:14] <KenMan> monte carlo testing ?
[20:15] * KenMan is too lazy to lift that text off the floor
[20:15] <kmag> creating DSA and DH parameters
[20:17] <kmag> and I was also curious about the Secure Remote Password protocol
[20:17] <TheSeeker> ok, just "javaw.exe path\freenet.jar" didn't work ... any help?
[20:18] <kmag> what was your error msg?
[20:18] <TheSeeker> could not find the main class
[20:19] <kmag> hmm... let me check my startup script
[20:20] <kmag> wait... with java you need to use java -jar jarfileName.jar
[20:21] <kmag> not so with javaw?
[20:21] <TheSeeker> I dont know, I was just guessing
[20:21] <TheSeeker> that worked, thanks :)
[20:22] <TheSeeker> *profiling*
[20:22] <TheSeeker> well, sortof :/
[20:22] <kmag> so when I type "java -version"
[20:22] <TheSeeker> I guess it's not able to trace.
[20:22] <kmag> I get 1.5.0-beta2
[20:23] <KenMan> :\
[20:23] <kmag> but when I use start-freenet.sh, it looks like Freenet finds my 1.4.2 JVM and launches itself using that
[20:24] <TheSeeker> I can see the threads getting made, and the memory allocation, but not what parts of the code are being used... need a java specific profiler. bah.
[20:24] <KenMan> cool!
[20:24] <KenMan> how about using the -Xprof command line option ?
[20:24] <TheSeeker> Xprof? ?
[20:27] <kmag> for some reason, Sun puts X in front of some of the options
[20:27] <TheSeeker> application exited as soon as it started, perhaps not made to be ran through a profiler with that option?
[20:28] <kmag> I would really suggest getting a real Java profiler
[20:28] <kmag> I found a GPL one when I was doing my thesis work
[20:29] <kmag> Of course, I ended up using a free 30-day trial profiler instead
[20:30] <kmag> You aren't going to get any useful profiling information unless you use the JIT's built in profiling methods
[20:31] <kmag> because otherwise the profiler doesn't know where the dynamically generated code came from
[20:32] <TheSeeker> ah
[20:32] <TheSeeker> I'll try with -Xprof > profile.dmp
[20:34] <kmag> any idea how to get freenet not to switch to java 1.4.2 when I invoke it inside my 1.5.0-beta2 JVM?
[20:34] <TheSeeker> hmm, Xprof still crashes it out of the copiler...
[20:35] <kmag> copiler = compiler?
[20:35] <TheSeeker> yeah, lots of typos today
[20:35] <TheSeeker> and I meant profiler o.O
[20:35] <toad_> <KenMan> they could always open source java, that might make a difference. Or not. -- it would, they could then use gmp, which is correct, and fast
[20:36] <kmag> ahh... I was about to ask why you were compiling with -Xprof
[20:36] <kmag> toad: aren't you going to sleep? It's about 3 AM in England, right?
[20:38] <kmag> so... FishTools... are they currently on Freenet? My node can't find them...
[20:46] <jay> toad goes to sleep hours after he's announced it ;)
[20:51] <kmag> I have a friend that's the same way with bars ;-)
[20:53] <jay> last call in new york is 4am :)
[20:53] <jay> well last call is around 3:45
[20:53] <kmag> Yea, he's in Stamford
[20:54] <kmag> CT
[20:54] <jay> lotsa computer work up there
[20:54] <kmag> trades fixed income derivatives
[20:55] <jay> nice.. lots of that kind of work in ny too, but i don't have financial experience
[20:55] <kmag> so are fishtools still broken?
[20:56] <jay> dunno
[20:56] <jay> i think FIW isn't being maintained either
[20:56] <kmag> so I'm trying to write my own python FCP library
[20:57] <jay> i maintain fcplib
[20:57] <jay> haven't done much work lately but im almost done with 1.0
[20:57] <jay> need to implement splitfile retrievals mainly
[20:57] <kmag> Oooh... so what is a CHKEndMessage?
[20:58] <kmag> I get that error with some CHK URIs but not others
[20:59] <jay> when inserting?
[20:59] <kmag> removing
[20:59] <kmag> err.. downloading
[21:01] <jay> downloading splitfiles or single chk's?
[21:01] <kmag> single CHK
[21:01] <kmag> GPL.txt, to be exact
[21:02] <kmag> that gives me an error
[21:02] <kmag> but if I use KSK@gpl.txt, I get the CHK redirect properly and can download that
[21:02] <jay> using what prog?
[21:03] <kmag> my own python
[21:04] <jay> that's not a message
[21:05] <jay> maybe a garbled message
[21:05] <kmag> well, I get a URIError
[21:05] <kmag> Reason=Missing CHKEndMessage or something like that
[21:07] <jay> ah URIError
[21:07] <kmag> This is mostly an excuse to brush up on my python
[21:08] <kmag> but I'd also like to be able to spyder freenet
[21:09] <jay> phone..
[21:31] <jay> if you're getting Reason=Missing EndMessage it sounds like the length of the key isn't correct and it's timing out
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[22:26] <KenMan> has anyone visited this before ? http://www.aaas.org/spp/anon/project.shtml
[22:27] <KenMan> hmm... looks a little dated, but clearly relevant.
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.