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[0:39] <mazzanet> toad_: ping
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[1:22] <TheSeeker> *pokes the snapshots dir* update already, I want 60257
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[1:57] <mazzanet> meh
[1:59] <mazzanet> the webinstaller is now updated
[1:59] <mazzanet> including my previous nsis 2.x compatibility patch
[1:59] <mazzanet> and someone elses patch to make the installer find java/jdk 1.5.x
[2:02] <TheSeeker> woot
[2:25] <TheSeeker> bah, still no update to /snapshots
[2:27] <TheSeeker> I feel a little dirty having 2 Athlon64 based computers now and I'm still running Windows on both of them ... 32 bit windows even.
[2:33] <KenMan> TheSeeker: you don't smell so great either. Perhaps some eau de penguin would ameliorate the odor.
[2:34] <KenMan> mazzanet: I had high hopes you might patch the webinstall ;) thanks ! we all appreciate it...
[2:34] <KenMan> do we still need to build and place the binary under the snapshots dir ?
[2:35] <mazzanet> :)
[2:35] <mazzanet> oh yeah
[2:35] <mazzanet> i need to build it
[2:36] <mazzanet> i'll do that soon
[2:39] <TheSeeker> can you please build the latest unstable jar too? ;)
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[6:21] <sdogi_> are there any improvements in unstable branch?
[6:22] <sdogi_> compared to stable
[6:45] * f00f (~chatzilla@adsl-69-226-111-165.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) has joined #freenet
[6:45] <f00f> :) hello
[6:45] <f00f> just discovered it :) sounds cool but im having trouble getting it to run?
[6:46] <f00f> does it work with blackdown?
[6:46] <d-ArkAngel> hi
[6:46] <f00f> hello
[6:46] <f00f> :)
[6:46] <d-ArkAngel> I'm not 100% sure
[6:47] <d-ArkAngel> I think it does, it relies on NIO which is something that came in with 1.4
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[6:47] <d-ArkAngel> which should be fairly well supported in blackdown.
[6:47] <d-ArkAngel> but as always your mileage may vary.
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[6:49] <d-ArkAngel> I've had no problems at all running it with Sun's JVMs, either the 1.4 or the 1.5 versions should work just fine.
[6:51] <f00f> ok cool
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[6:52] <f00f> im planning on using freenet
[6:52] <f00f> :)
[6:52] <f00f> so its like some distributed internet protocol?
[6:52] <d-ArkAngel> kinda like distributed web hosting.
[6:52] <f00f> nice
[6:52] <f00f> :D
[6:52] <f00f> i like it
[6:53] <d-ArkAngel> you have to have a node to access "freenet" through, and the node you run works better the more hard drive space you donate to it (because the mode cache it's got the better the node is in the eyes of other nodes arround it)
[6:54] <d-ArkAngel> so you share some hard drive space, and so does everyone else.
[6:54] <d-ArkAngel> which becomes a huge distributed data store, which all the freenet sites are hosted on.
[6:54] <f00f> cool
[6:56] <f00f> :) this is definitely going to help me in finding webspace for all my coding projects
[6:56] <d-ArkAngel> it also makes it hard (the aim is impossible, but very hard is more likely) to trace who publishes what, or who is reading/downloading what
[6:56] <f00f> another plus :)
[6:56] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[6:57] <d-ArkAngel> it's a very nice thing, which is why I turned up and started trying to help :-)
[6:57] <f00f> things are more efficient when everyone participates and shares
[6:57] <d-ArkAngel> indeed.
[6:57] <f00f> that rule has been around since the dawn of time
[6:57] <f00f> its about time for distributed webhosting
[6:57] <d-ArkAngel> the other theory is that it's well designed to copes with sudden surges of demand.
[6:58] <f00f> yeah :)
[6:58] <d-ArkAngel> some indications are that it'd be even better at that than bit torrent.
[6:58] <f00f> hmm
[6:59] <d-ArkAngel> but since it's still a pre 1.0, and we're still running simulations to decide how well it'll work on LARGE scales that's just educated guesswork at this point :-)
[7:00] <d-ArkAngel> at the moment the perfomance for general browsing is probably sub internet, and for large file retrival (for popular files at least) it's about on the same level as internet performance.
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[7:02] <f00f> can someone ping vivi2.no-ip.info for me?
[7:02] <d-ArkAngel> one moment
[7:03] <d-ArkAngel> it's responding to pings
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[7:05] <f00f> cool
[7:05] <f00f> :)
[7:06] <f00f> hmm
[7:06] * toad_ wonders if dijer will ensure that freenet is only ever used for illegal/odd/controversial stuff, and therefore ensure that it gets banned? :)
[7:06] <f00f> im getting couldnt retrieve key all the time?
[7:06] <f00f> :(
[7:06] <d-ArkAngel> it takes time for a new node to learn it's way arround the network
[7:07] <f00f> hmm.. i have tranisent on this box because its not on 24/7
[7:07] <f00f> perhaps i should run freenet on a 24/7 box
[7:07] <f00f> :)
[7:07] <d-ArkAngel> that's not too much of a problem, tho 24/7 is better :-)
[7:08] <f00f> so how long does it take to get the keys and stuff?
[7:09] <d-ArkAngel> well the best thing you can do is to just keep trying pages, keep refreshing, and clicking on stuff, that'll help your node make friends with other nodes, and start getting some connections going.
[7:09] <d-ArkAngel> I've heard people say that about a day of it being on the network is arround the time it starts to get going.
[7:09] <d-ArkAngel> tho some people say less, and other say more.
[7:10] <f00f> ahh..
[7:10] <f00f> so i should turn transient off in the conf?
[7:11] <d-ArkAngel> I seem to recall that transient doesn't have any effect any more anyway...
[7:12] <d-ArkAngel> toad_: isn't dijer just just a proxy system, that still needs a web host for a site?
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[7:18] <f00f> how about i just paste my node reference?
[7:19] <d-ArkAngel> node references?
[7:20] <f00f> yeah
[7:20] <f00f> i read something about those
[7:21] <d-ArkAngel> I'm not sure what you mean by pasteing them.
[7:21] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yes indeed
[7:22] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: but for free web hosting of largish files, dijer cuts the potential market out from under us
[7:22] <toad_> oh well
[7:22] <f00f> id like freenet to stay limited to only geeks
[7:22] <d-ArkAngel> how? since you'd still have to host those large files?
[7:22] <toad_> f00f: why?
[7:23] <f00f> j/k lol
[7:23] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: you just host them very slowly
[7:23] <f00f> just wanted to start some controversy
[7:23] <f00f> ;)
[7:23] <toad_> and get everyone to use dijer
[7:23] <d-ArkAngel> ahh I see.
[7:23] <toad_> :)
[7:24] <toad_> hopefully we'll have a court ruling that dijer violates people's copyrights :)
[7:24] <d-ArkAngel> so scabserver.com would be able to use that to host trafic.
[7:24] <toad_> or a few people busted for accidentally hosting kiddy porn :)
[7:24] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[7:24] <plixed> toad_: dijjer not dijer ;)
[7:24] <toad_> :)
[7:25] <toad_> I don't really have a problem with it, but it does reemphasize the question of what freenet is FOR?
[7:25] <f00f> yaay still no neighbours :(
[7:25] <d-ArkAngel> how many connections do you have?
[7:26] <toad_> if freenet is only for "freedom of speech", then we will never have much popular support
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[7:26] <f00f> 0
[7:26] <toad_> because people generally don't care for freedom of speech
[7:26] <f00f> toad_: i just hope freenet dosent become another pr0n magnet
[7:26] <f00f> :(
[7:27] <toad_> censorship protects children from paedophiles, and anything important will get out in the mainstream press... and of course The Sun is perfectly trustworthy as an information source!
[7:27] <f00f> :P
[7:27] <f00f> im by far not considered "children" :P
[7:27] <toad_> f00f: already is, but at least you can't make money out of it; I suppose there isn't THAT much porn actually, not as a proportion
[7:28] <f00f> true
[7:28] <f00f> i hope it becomes a romz magnet mwahahhaha
[7:28] <f00f> ;)
[7:28] <toad_> heh
[7:28] <f00f> :( 0 connections
[7:29] <toad_> for the log: my above comments are sarcastic!
[7:29] <toad_> well no
[7:29] <toad_> they're meant to show the "average citizen"'s view of censorship as i have seen it
[7:31] <toad_> our only chance to avoid a total ban appeared to be to get fast, get popular, get MAJOR noninfringing uses, get integrated into browsers, all before they realize what's going on
[7:31] <toad_> that's not realistic if other technologies can handle all the "normal" stuff
[7:32] <toad_> I wouldn't fear a ban except that I'm not sure we'll have anything usable underground for many years after we first make the thing work...
[7:33] <d-ArkAngel> toad, I don't think we'll have much of a problem as long as we're small enough, which gives us plenty of time to get the tech right.
[7:33] <toad_> hmm?
[7:33] <d-ArkAngel> look at how many people run peer to peer file sharing apps, almost all for swapping illegal stuff.
[7:34] <d-ArkAngel> their legitimate uses are minimal, probably even smaller than ours, and yet no-one has banned them?
[7:34] <plixed> f00f: 0 connections is too less, do you have a recent seednodes.ref?
[7:34] <toad_> they have banned many of them effectively
[7:34] <toad_> look at napster
[7:34] <toad_> they can take out the core, and prosecute the users
[7:34] <d-ArkAngel> napster was different
[7:34] <toad_> they've just been going after the easy targets to start with
[7:34] <d-ArkAngel> limewire for example
[7:34] <toad_> why hit the users en masse when you can hit the authors?
[7:34] <toad_> but now they are starting to hit the users
[7:34] <d-ArkAngel> they are going after users of the technology, not the technology it's self.
[7:35] <f00f> plixed: where do i get this seednodes.ref?
[7:35] <toad_> if it's decentralized, they have to go after the users
[7:35] <toad_> and what do you think INDUCE is for?
[7:35] <d-ArkAngel> exactly, but it's not illegal to run limewire is it? and I can't see them ever making that the case.
[7:35] <plixed> f00f: if you don't know that i have to ask which version of freenet are you running? ;)
[7:35] <toad_> a primary reason for INDUCE is to allow them to ban P2Ps
[7:35] <toad_> judicially
[7:36] <f00f> 0.5
[7:36] <d-ArkAngel> plixed, he's just installed it now.
[7:36] <plixed> f00f: the version on the sf.net page is too old and won't work
[7:36] <f00f> im using the one in portage
[7:36] <toad_> INDUCE is too broad and actually nearly goes into mandatory DRM, and thankfully has been delayed
[7:36] <f00f> net-p2p/freenet-0.5.2.1-r8
[7:36] <toad_> but they may come up with something more specific when they come to their senses next legislative term
[7:36] <f00f> old?
[7:37] <f00f> ban computer software!!!
[7:37] <f00f> ban computers!
[7:37] <f00f> xD
[7:37] <toad_> f00f: that's exactly what we're looking at
[7:37] <plixed> f00f: get the freenet-latest.tgz from http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/
[7:37] <toad_> computers will be illegal. only Registered Entertainment Devices will be allowed.
[7:38] <f00f> thats when i move to tokelau
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[7:38] <toad_> hehe, you can't escape them... :)
[7:38] <toad_> anyway
[7:38] <plixed> f00f: 5.2.x does not work anymore in the sense that all other freenet nodes won't allow connections from you
[7:38] <d-ArkAngel> I still don't see them actually stopping anything. they can make stupid laws all they want, but I don't see it as a problem we'll have to deal with.
[7:38] <f00f> well have the underground internet
[7:38] <toad_> time to get on with life..
[7:38] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: they have the power to do whatever they please
[7:38] <toad_> they're trying lawsuits against individuals at the moment; if that works, they'll use that
[7:38] <d-ArkAngel> except that in theory "they" are "us" in this isntance.
[7:38] <f00f> nobody questions hollywood drug addicts and corporations!!!
[7:39] <toad_> if that doesn't, and they can pass INDUCE, then they'll press for some serious enforcement options
[7:39] <plixed> btw: did anyone notice that freenetproject.NET is grabbed? ;)
[7:39] <d-ArkAngel> and it'll be a game of cat and mouse.
[7:39] <toad_> there was that bill that would've made it legal for them to hack our nodes, for example
[7:39] <f00f> 0.0
[7:39] <f00f> 8.6kbps??
[7:40] <toad_> f00f: kB/sec?
[7:40] <toad_> bytes or bits?
[7:40] <f00f> a mirror perhaps?
[7:40] <d-ArkAngel> 8 is good. SF was only doing 2 yesturday :-)
[7:40] <f00f> bytes
[7:40] <f00f> ahh
[7:40] <plixed> f00f: freenetproject.org is hosted by sf.net and has problems since the weekends
[7:40] <f00f> hmm
[7:40] <plixed> f00f: ~3 kb/s for everyone
[7:40] <f00f> ouch!
[7:40] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: ultimately, you just ban all non-DRM hardware. that would give them substantial progress. of course they can't win entirely, but they can destroy open source and cripple freedom of speech.
[7:40] <f00f> heh this reminds me of dialup
[7:41] <toad_> anyway
[7:41] <toad_> bbl
[7:41] <f00f> well they can kiss my commie open source ass :P
[7:41] <plixed> f00f: but all sf.net project pages have problems, try downloading from linux-ntfs.sf.net ;)
[7:41] <f00f> hehe
[7:41] <toad_> and I'm sure they could find some compromize to make the OSS-using megabizzes happy (you can only run M$ Windows, or IBM Linux!)
[7:41] <d-ArkAngel> well I think that it's not going to work out that way.
[7:41] <toad_> bbl
[7:41] <f00f> my mom uses linux
[7:42] <f00f> uh oh
[7:42] <f00f> 7,3KBps
[7:42] <f00f> 0.0
[7:42] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: who is going to use freenet except for paedophiles, geeks, political subversives, libertarians? together they make up like 1% of the population - an undesirable 1% too!
[7:42] <d-ArkAngel> patents are having such a hard time coming in through the EU, that I see that as the start of Open Source having enough leverage to keep the wolves from our door.
[7:42] <f00f> it stalled!
[7:42] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: could be
[7:42] <toad_> we shall see
[7:42] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[7:43] <plixed> maybe sf put the project pages on a bandwidth limit per client
[7:43] <toad_> it comes down to, can you do it without pissing off megabiz??
[7:43] <toad_> swpats will hurt the economic majority
[7:43] <f00f> itll all come down to a bloody revolution
[7:43] <toad_> and many big bizzes too
[7:43] <plixed> since i don't see any announcement on the main pages that they have hw or connection problems
[7:43] <f00f> in the end
[7:44] <toad_> f00f: only if you have popular support, which you won't
[7:44] <f00f> once joe citizen realizes that all his freedoms have been taken away
[7:44] <f00f> they wont stop with computers
[7:44] <toad_> joe is always quite happy to give them away
[7:44] <f00f> trust me
[7:44] <toad_> until it's FAR too late
[7:44] <f00f> yes
[7:44] <toad_> we might have a revolution, but it'll take a hundred years of oppression
[7:45] <toad_> if we can stop the slide now in the digital domain, and if there isn't another serious attack, then there may not be serious oppression
[7:45] <toad_> or at least, it will be greatly delayed
[7:45] <plixed> ah, http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=424411
[7:46] <f00f> thats what im afraid of
[7:46] <f00f> years of oppression
[7:46] <f00f> then well screw up and implement the wrong kind of government again
[7:47] <toad_> DRM is the wedge they would use to eliminate freedom of speech in cyberspace
[7:47] <toad_> terrorism is what they use to justify e.g. internment
[7:47] <toad_> two sides of the same coin perhaps
[7:47] <f00f> which is the wedge they will use to eliminate FoS in real space
[7:47] <mikeeusa> ima make an anti-feminism site on fnet
[7:47] <toad_> f00f: right
[7:47] <mikeeusa> that will test fnets surviveablity
[7:48] <toad_> mikeeusa: ;)
[7:48] <mikeeusa> because canada has a govt agency that tracks people down for anti-feminist peeps
[7:48] <mikeeusa> and it has sued peeps i "know"
[7:48] <toad_> mikeeusa: there are many anti-$cientology freesites
[7:48] <mikeeusa> has anyone tried to sue them?
[7:48] <toad_> usually that causes trouble, but we've been pretty unscathed
[7:48] <mikeeusa> ooo
[7:48] <toad_> too busy suing the web sites they're mirrored from i think :)
[7:48] <f00f> it says native biginteger lib not found
[7:48] <mikeeusa> lol
[7:49] <f00f> does that mean i need suns jvm?
[7:49] <toad_> bbl
[7:49] <plixed> mikeeusa: there is child porn in freenet, i think that beats any other surviveabilty test ;)
[7:49] <d-ArkAngel> it means it'll use the java versions
[7:49] <f00f> i dont care
[7:49] <f00f> there will be porn everywhere
[7:49] <d-ArkAngel> basicaly the lib not found is a performance booster
[7:49] <toad_> there is untraceable child porn on freenet. THAT is the problem.
[7:50] <f00f> big deal
[7:50] <mikeeusa> plixed, child port dosn't threaten any political beliefs and/or cults
[7:50] <toad_> the existence of child porn on usenet is tolerated and used by the police to bust perverts who download the stuff - BECAUSE IT IS TRACEABLE
[7:50] <d-ArkAngel> it's just some native code for doing some of the maths a little faster than a java implementation
[7:50] * Ash-Fox (~N@ntwklan-62-233-172-171.devs.futuro.pl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[7:51] <toad_> that to me is the key moral issue with freenet - it deliberately attempts to obstruct efforts to trace people, even if those are by The Authorities acting on good faith
[7:51] <toad_> obviously I've chosen a side, but I can see there's a substantial issue here :)
[7:51] <toad_> now I really gotta go
[7:51] <mikeeusa> yea the child pron bathers me too but gotta take it with the tech
[7:52] <mikeeusa> the poliece can do some forensics on the pics perhapse?
[7:52] <mikeeusa> and find people that way maby
[7:52] <mikeeusa> I'm sure they don't try to remove any meta data from the files
[7:52] <toad_> sometimes yes
[7:53] <toad_> they can trace the kids sometimes
[7:53] <mikeeusa> also the fact that it's a picture and captures the place + the person
[7:53] <f00f> do you have to set the BW limits?
[7:53] <f00f> i just kept the default at 0
[7:53] <f00f> still 0 connections...
[7:53] <f00f> :(
[7:54] <plixed> f00f: no, you don't need to set limits for freenet to work
[7:54] <plixed> f00f: do you see the freds page on localhost:8888?
[7:55] <plixed> f00f: obvioulsy you do ;)
[7:55] <d-ArkAngel> interestingly I'm suddenly having that issue to.
[7:55] <d-ArkAngel> on my big node.
[7:55] <plixed> f00f: what version do are you running now? 5100?
[7:55] <f00f> yeah
[7:55] <d-ArkAngel> I'm trying it out by dropping my routing tables.
[7:56] <f00f> plixed: wheres that?
[7:57] <plixed> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 107 (79/28/200)
[7:57] <f00f> d-ArkAngel: child pr0n?
[7:57] <d-ArkAngel> no, zero connections
[7:58] <f00f> ahh...
[7:58] <f00f> well.. ill just say that ignorance is bliss and never check whats being stored on your node
[7:58] <f00f> what you dont know cant hurt you
[7:58] <f00f> :)
[7:59] <f00f> plixed: is there anyway i can get you as a neighbour explicitly+
[7:59] <plixed> f00f: you can't anyway do that without the decryption keys ;)
[8:00] <plixed> f00f: no, just make sure that you have the recent seednodes.ref & the other stuff from the .tgz in the node dir
[8:00] <f00f> hmm
[8:00] <f00f> plixed: can you dcc me the seednohes.ref
[8:00] <f00f> i just dled the jap
[8:00] <f00f> *jar
[8:01] <plixed> without seednodes you don't have a chance to connect to freenet
[8:01] <plixed> f00f: you also need the freenet-ext.jar
[8:01] <f00f> hmm
[8:01] <plixed> f00f: download the .tgz it's all in there
[8:01] <f00f> thats it
[8:01] <f00f> its prozilla time
[8:02] <plixed> pornzilla? ;)
[8:02] <f00f> nah..
[8:02] <f00f> leeches the crap out of servers
[8:02] <f00f> :)
[8:02] <f00f> connects multiple times
[8:02] <plixed> http://www.squarefree.com/pornzilla/ ;)
[8:03] <toad_> only way to prove their is cp on your node is to fetch some and correlate the keys. this is illegal. that's probably a great legal protection, until they start providing lists of hashes..
[8:03] <toad_> plixed: whats that?
[8:03] <plixed> a mozilla optimized for watching porn ;)
[8:03] <f00f> id be happy just to not know
[8:03] <toad_> optimized how?
[8:03] <f00f> seriously
[8:04] <f00f> w00t! prozilla gets me 22kbps on freenet-latest.tgz
[8:04] <plixed> "Pornzilla is a collection of tools for surfing porn with Firefox. These bookmarklets and extensions make it easier to find and view porn, letting you spend more time looking at smut you like"
[8:04] <toad_> heh
[8:04] <f00f> lol
[8:04] * toad_ would prefer there wasn't porn on his node of any description :)
[8:04] <f00f> i should make romzilla
[8:05] <f00f> "Romzilla is a collection of tools for getting 1337 r0mz w/o teh pr0n ads"
[8:05] <f00f> ;)
[8:05] <toad_> heh
[8:05] <toad_> with an integrated freenet node?
[8:05] <f00f> yes
[8:06] <f00f> so you can spend less time looking and more time getting your game on
[8:06] <f00f> :D
[8:06] <toad_> :)
[8:07] <f00f> toad_: use prozilla on SF for dling
[8:07] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> toad, you there?
[8:07] <f00f> youll get like 25kbps
[8:08] <f00f> maybe romzilla should have tabbed emulating
[8:08] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> that would be fanfuckingtastic, foof
[8:09] <f00f> like you could do this snes://home/user/romz/CT.smc
[8:09] <f00f> :)
[8:13] <f00f> YAAY!!!!!!!!!
[8:13] <f00f> 2 connections!
[8:14] <f00f> hello freenet
[8:14] <f00f> hello romz
[8:14] <f00f> ;)
[8:17] <f00f> hmm... 0.0 you cant do server side scripting on freenet
[8:17] <f00f> but.. i can use it to store the database stuff
[8:17] <f00f> :D
[8:19] <f00f> brb
[8:19] <f00f> getting in irssi, chatzilla sux
[8:19] * f00f (~chatzilla@adsl-69-226-111-165.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.66 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041123]")
[8:20] * f00f (~f00f@adsl-69-226-111-165.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) has joined #freenet
[8:20] <f00f> ahh
[8:20] <f00f> thats better
[8:21] <mikeeusa> so you are now using a black background rather than a white one for IRC
[8:22] <mikeeusa> you subject the black background to the carving of letters into it's thin skin just to chat with your damnable friends
[8:22] <mikeeusa> do you care that you are hurting and opressing the black background
[8:22] <mikeeusa> ofcourse not
[8:24] <f00f> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit)13 (0/13/200)
[8:24] <f00f> that normal?
[8:27] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-254-081.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[8:27] <plixed> f00f: you have to open/forward the freenet node protocol port (listenPort in freenet.conf)
[8:28] <plixed> f00f: TCP only
[8:29] <f00f> hmm
[8:29] <plixed> f00f: after that it takes a while until other nodes connect, iirc your node needs to send out a few announcements for that
[8:29] <mikeeusa> College tine
[8:29] <mikeeusa> see yall thar
[8:29] <mikeeusa> '?.L;
[8:30] <plixed> "women bashing class" ;)
[8:30] <plixed> ?
[8:33] * leexgxhalf-awake is now known as leexgx
[8:33] <f00f> heh
[8:34] <f00f> well looks like ill be leaving my node up for a while
[8:36] <f00f> yaaay!!!
[8:36] * verl (verl@h152n2fls33o877.telia.com) Quit ()
[8:36] <f00f> i got connected to the insertion wizard
[8:39] * cbreak (~cbreak@dhcp-32-094.via-eth.ch) has joined #freenet
[8:39] * leexgx is now known as leexgx-fixing-st
[8:39] <plixed> f00f: for inserting big files use fuqid
[8:40] * leexgx-fixing-st is now known as leexgx-fixing-pc
[8:40] <plixed> f00f: for freesites i think fiw is the right tool
[8:44] <f00f> fuqid eh?
[8:44] <f00f> ok
[8:44] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) has joined #freenet
[8:46] <f00f> yeah.. im gonna run freenet on the box thats up 24/7
[8:47] <f00f> i get 404 for fiw
[8:49] <f00f> plixed: dcc+
[8:49] <f00f> *dcc?
[8:50] * leexgx-fixing-pc is now known as leexgxfixing-stu
[8:50] * leexgxfixing-stu is now known as leexgx-fix-stuff
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[9:08] <d-ArkAngel> connecting to the node I'm running seems very slow... I wonder why...
[9:14] <f00f> hmm
[9:14] <silent-fish> because it hates you?
[9:15] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@170.252.64.1) has joined #freenet
[9:15] <cbreak> maybe it has not enough threads available...
[9:15] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@170.252.64.1) has left #freenet
[9:19] * f00f waits for more thumbnails to pop up in the help index
[9:22] <plixed> f00f: how much hd space did you gave the node?
[9:27] * jay (~jcl@198.38.10.200) Quit ()
[9:27] <f00f> 256MB
[9:28] <f00f> should i give it 1GB instead?
[9:28] <f00f> would that seriously improve my expierence
[9:28] <f00f> :)
[9:29] <plixed> f00f: yes
[9:31] <plixed> f00f: the bigger the store the better your experience will be
[9:31] <f00f> ive got 60GB
[9:31] <f00f> so ill give it 4.5G to kick around
[9:31] <f00f> :)
[9:31] <plixed> f00f: you can watch in the environment page the status of your datastore
[9:32] <toad_> f00f: performance is best with 40+
[9:32] <plixed> indeed :)
[9:32] <f00f> xD
[9:32] <f00f> toad_: maybe when i get my RAID array of 120GB drives
[9:32] <f00f> ;)
[9:33] <toad_> 40+ connections i mean
[9:33] <plixed> but that is a bit dependant of your internet connection
[9:33] <f00f> ahh
[9:33] <f00f> :( ADSL
[9:34] <plixed> well there are good adsl lines out there like 3mbit/384kbit that can push about 4 gb / day on an otherwise idle node
[9:36] <plixed> the key for anonymity is overhead, you have to resend data many times for it to loose it's tie to the sender
[9:38] <d-ArkAngel> toad_: has anything changed in 1150 that would explain my node being hella slow at replying to http requests?
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[9:56] <f00f> bbl nap
[9:57] * kevloral (~kevloral@CZ1-RAS-8-u-0179.du.onolab.com) has joined #freenet
[9:57] <kevloral> g'afternoon all
[10:00] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-254-081.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[10:02] * sdogi_ (~java@84-50-18-61-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) has joined #freenet
[10:07] <kevloral> toad_: you there?
[10:10] <KenMan> "When talking about certain animals being raised for food, if no one eats them then they become endangered," (supply & demand)
[10:11] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> toad, you there?
[10:12] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> kev, wasn't that you, that gave me the hint of changing 1.5 to 1.4?
[10:13] <kevloral> newsbyte: yes, it was me
[10:14] * kevloral hopes he didn't ruin newsbyte computer...
[10:14] * sdogi (~java@84-50-21-252-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) Quit (Connection timed out)
[10:18] * pupok (~r00t@cs70112248-25.austin.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[10:19] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> well, it didn't work
[10:24] <kevloral> newsbyte: weird. It should have worked, because as I recently sent the patch for the wininstaller for it to support 1.5, it is quite fresh in my memory the method it uses to check for the presence of the JRE.
[10:25] <kevloral> newsbyte: maybe you didn't make the change the right way, or (more probably) my explanation about how to do it was not that good...
[10:28] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-144-36.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[10:29] <spaetz> hi toad, sorry I had to restart hal, the simulation box.
[10:29] <spaetz> Can you restart? I hope it did some snapshotting....
[10:46] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> maybe you can tell me it again, step by step
[10:49] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> So, I'm on regedit, and...(?)
[10:50] <kevloral> newsbyte: ok, let me see...
[10:51] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> /me prods kev
[10:51] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> /me prods kev
[10:51] <kevloral> newsbyte: you go to HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\JavaSoft\Java Runtime Environment
[10:51] <kevloral> newsbyte: in that key, there is a subkey called 1.5 (and I am *not* talking about the field called "Current Version")
[10:52] <kevloral> newsbyte: rename that subkey to 1.4 and that's it. The installer should work (no need to restart)
[10:52] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> you mean not the data, but just the name of the dirs?
[10:53] <kevloral> newsbyte: http://jtcfrost.sourceforge.net/pictures/FreenetWithJava15.jpg
[10:53] <kevloral> yes, just the name of the "dir"
[10:53] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> well, for starters, there is one that says 1.5, and there is one that says 1.5.0
[10:54] <kevloral> newsbyte: ignore the 1.5.0 one
[10:56] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> Do I have to reset it, then? (because I changed it the last time)
[10:57] <kevloral> newsbyte: yes. The freenet installer ignores that 1.5.0 but you might have trouble with other programs if you don't.
[10:58] * mikeeusa (~r00t@ool-18be3a49.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
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[11:21] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> Toad: You have new mail (i hope).
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[13:09] * leexgx-fix-stuff is now known as leexgx
[13:13] <d-ArkAngel> hey guys, I know there's quite a few linux desktop users in here, anyone got a moment to chat about x.org performance? Mine seems to suck and I'm wondering if that's just the way it is these days, of if I've got a problem.
[13:14] <leexgx> x windows?
[13:15] <d-ArkAngel> yeah
[13:15] <leexgx> i thought it runs fine here
[13:15] <d-ArkAngel> it runs ok here..
[13:15] <leexgx> and i running in an VMware box
[13:16] <d-ArkAngel> but for example mozilla when I view a new page and updates the screen you can see the update scan down the screen as it's written from one buffer to the next.
[13:16] <leexgx> if its an nvidia vga card
[13:16] <leexgx> you need to get the nvidia.o driver
[13:16] <d-ArkAngel> I've got the binary nvidia drivers install, I've just updated them to the lastest version
[13:17] <d-ArkAngel> no crashes, or lockups or anything, just quite a lot of CPU usage, and this strange slow screen updates.
[13:18] <d-ArkAngel> mind you the latest drivers seem to have improved the Open GL performance markedly when using the java2D via OpenGL optimisations for java things
[13:20] <d-ArkAngel> for example my cup usage spikes to 100% just shadeing a window and unshadeing it again (to show and hide the window underneeth) and that's on a dual opteron workstation.
[13:20] <d-ArkAngel> CPU even, (not cup :-) )
[13:22] * sanity is now known as sanity_away
[13:24] <leexgx> ATi is an bit heh
[13:24] <leexgx> ?
[13:24] <leexgx> heh
[13:24] <leexgx> pone rang
[13:24] <leexgx> fs
[13:24] <leexgx> phone rang
[13:24] <leexgx> lol
[13:26] <d-ArkAngel> my old ATI card had no 3D support in linux at all :-(
[13:27] <d-ArkAngel> so I got this Nvidia one, and it's nice for 3D stuff, but the 2D support is kinda slugish
[13:30] <leexgx> maybe in an year or so nvidia will make the driver better (or the bew Xfree project will catch up on what the old Xfree devaples did not do)
[13:31] <leexgx> thay got an API for shader rendering now
[13:31] <leexgx> before it was an bit jumpy now i can move trasnpartant windows around with no loag
[13:32] <leexgx> lag
[13:34] <d-ArkAngel> do you use many java apps?
[13:35] <d-ArkAngel> with the 1.5 sun runtime you can add this to the command line -Dsun.java2d.opengl=true
[13:35] <d-ArkAngel> which uses openGL rendering to render the swing components.
[13:35] <d-ArkAngel> makes it really nice and smooth
[13:36] <d-ArkAngel> I got that from reading the technology blogs on the sun website.
[13:36] <plixed> with the 1.5 jvm you can use NPTL with freenet :)
[13:36] <d-ArkAngel> NTPL?
[13:36] <d-ArkAngel> NPTL?
[13:36] <plixed> NPTL
[13:36] <d-ArkAngel> even (I can't even type it let alone remember what it is :-) )
[13:37] <plixed> not Windows NT ;)
[13:37] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[13:37] <d-ArkAngel> so what is it then?
[13:37] <d-ArkAngel> Something to do with Threading?
[13:38] <plixed> Native Posix Thread Library
[13:39] <plixed> fast (in fact for the first time real) threads in linux (with kernel-2.6 and glibc-2.3)
[13:39] <d-ArkAngel> anything needed on command line to enable that? or is that active by default?
[13:40] <plixed> active by default but get's disabled by the freenet.sh script
[13:40] <plixed> start-freenet.sh
[13:40] <d-ArkAngel> ahhh, ok
[13:41] <plixed> but i run it for about 3 weeks now without crashed or problems, pumping about 3-4 gb/day
[13:41] <d-ArkAngel> cool
[13:43] <plixed> makes your system run smoother because the kernel can disperse the load better on real threads than on >100 java threads
[13:43] <plixed> >100 java procs ;)
[13:43] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[13:44] <d-ArkAngel> maybe I should test it on my node and see if that works any better
[13:44] <plixed> worth a try i think :)
[13:44] <plixed> just make sure that the LD_ASSUME_KERNEL does not get set
[13:45] <d-ArkAngel> I might have done that already on one of my nodes when I was having issues...
[13:45] <d-ArkAngel> but I'll definatly play with it some
[13:45] <d-ArkAngel> My Food is ready, back in a few.
[13:48] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-144-36.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit ("Verlassend")
[13:48] <f00f> man
[13:48] <f00f> my node is freaking slow
[13:48] <f00f> even though i have 68 connections
[13:54] <plixed> f00f: freenet is generally slow
[13:55] <plixed> f00f: but it can also be fast sometimes, when you got a big datastore and request a popular big file chances are that some parts of it are already on your node ;)
[13:56] <plixed> f00f: and the other parts are only a few hops around you
[13:56] <f00f> hmm
[13:57] <plixed> this is only true for a node that has a big (>10gb) datastore that is completly filled
[13:58] <plixed> with a standard dsl connection the data store gets filled about 1 gb / day, maybe for fast dsl connections a bit more
[13:59] <plixed> f00f: freenet is the ultimate patience test ;)
[14:06] * f00f (~f00f@adsl-69-226-111-165.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[14:07] <d-ArkAngel> plus it's not just about having lots of connections
[14:08] <d-ArkAngel> you see your node has to learn (by trial and error) what each of those peers is good at finding
[14:08] <d-ArkAngel> because in freenet nodes (are supposed to) develop a specilisation
[14:09] <d-ArkAngel> I've heard people say that running frost is a really good way to train your node to find things.
[14:16] <plixed> too bad f00f has gone before your explanation
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[14:55] <toad_> eh?
[14:58] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> my old ATI card had no 3D support in linux at all :-( -- what was it? anything that old wouldn't be useful anyway, surely? of course next time i'll get nvidia so i get tv-out that works... :)
[15:01] <toad_> [19:08] <d-ArkAngel> plus it's not just about having lots of connections - having lots of conns helps a lot though
[15:03] <d-ArkAngel> my ATI was a 9700 Pro II. Nice card, to new for DRI and ATI have no x86_64 binaries
[15:03] * sdogi (~java@84-50-17-55-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) has joined #freenet
[15:04] <d-ArkAngel> so I got a Nvidia 6800GT instead, I've just messed about with the xorg.conf file and I think I've helped it along a little. I've got twinview working now, so I've got 3D accel working on both monitors!
[15:04] <d-ArkAngel> woo hoo
[15:04] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: umm, didn't the 32 bit drivers work?
[15:04] <d-ArkAngel> that's better than windows can do most of the time ;-)
[15:05] <d-ArkAngel> not on a 64bit kernel
[15:05] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: the drivers are just ported from doze; i'm sure windows can do 3d on 2 monitors with similar drivers
[15:05] <toad_> but i just ordered a new nvidia card anyway :)
[15:05] <toad_> well we did
[15:06] <toad_> then they will be swapped around and around
[15:06] <d-ArkAngel> windows works ok, but if you have a 3D app on both desktops at the same time it goes a little mental in doze.
[15:06] <toad_> and i'll end up with a different nvidia card
[15:06] <toad_> :)
[15:06] <d-ArkAngel> linux works like a charm (for the moment ;-) )
[15:07] <d-ArkAngel> the 2D is fairly respectable now I've messed with it a little too... tho I'd still like to sharpen it up a little more.
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[15:36] * toad_ reading all the latest swpat goings-on...
[15:36] <toad_> Note: Depending who you read, a "Political Agreement" has only failed
[15:36] <toad_> to be adopted into a "Common Position" by the EU ministers once - or
[15:36] <toad_> never at all.
[15:36] <toad_> If that happens this time, it will be a shot that will resound from one
[15:36] <toad_> end of the EU to the other.
[15:37] <toad_> sounds like fun! :)
[15:37] <toad_> also means some of the anti-swpat countries may abstain, which could hurt us.. but they may still not vote for..
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[15:47] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> Toad: Have you recieved my mail?
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[16:10] <mazzanet> toad_: ping
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[16:35] <kevloral> g'evening all
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[17:12] <TheSeeker> darn, 60257 still isn't in the /snapshots dir :/
[17:13] <mazzanet> oh.
[17:13] <mazzanet> i wonder if i still have ant installed...
[17:20] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("CyberLore.net - Recommendations on the best games, freeware and websites.")
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[17:27] <mazzanet> doh
[17:28] <mazzanet> Permissed denied.
[17:28] <mazzanet> permission even
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[17:33] <mazzanet> fixed
[17:33] <mazzanet> TheSeeker: http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/freenet-unstable-latest.jar
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[17:34] <TheSeeker> yey, thanks.
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[17:46] <TheSeeker> I don't supose (freenet.support.io.NIOInputStream, YThread-##, NORMAL): waited more than 120000ms in NIOIS.read() needs to be reported?
[17:48] <TheSeeker> hmm, haven't seen that one though... and there's no dump after it...
[17:48] <TheSeeker> freenet.support.FileBucket, Finalizer, ERROR): Delete failed on bucket ta1374f4
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[18:16] <toad_> hmmm
[18:16] <toad_> what do you say to people who think patents on nontrivial inventions are a moral right?
[18:17] * ShaunMacPherson is now known as Shaun-Away
[18:24] <TheSeeker> Until such time that money is not the general motivating factor in the development of ideas, people will seek to profit from those ideas.
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[18:27] <TheSeeker> One cannot fault the morality of the inventor which follows the morality of the time. Though, only those inventors who have their own motivations can generally be called visionaries...
[18:29] <toad_> well what about the "nontrivial inventions" bit?
[18:29] <toad_> how do you establish that no patenting system conceivable could ever separate trivial from nontrivial software patents?
[18:31] <TheSeeker> moreover, how would such a thing possibly be enforced?
[18:31] <toad_> hmm?
[18:32] <TheSeeker> software patents.
[18:32] <toad_> if there are nontrivial software patents - things you'd take years to develop, that nobody else would ever think of - then they could be enforced in much the same way as any other patent, no?
[18:33] <d-ArkAngel> that's fine, but all computer based inventions are in fact just abstractions of mathmatics, and follow from the basic laws and are therfor trivial as part of the univser we live in
[18:34] <toad_> so what/
[18:34] <toad_> ?
[18:34] <d-ArkAngel> it's like writing a story
[18:34] <toad_> we do things in cyberspace; we do things in real life. the former is often more powerful than the latter.
[18:35] <d-ArkAngel> you can't pattent it, because that makes no sense.
[18:35] <mazzanet> toad_: i commited the wininstaller script, merged my previous nsis 2-compat script and added the java 1.5 patch
[18:35] <d-ArkAngel> you didn't "invent" chapter 4
[18:35] <TheSeeker> I suppose, for example, if I were to create a program that allowed for fast compression of arbitrary data I wouldn't want someone else taking credit for it, or getting rich off of it while I live in a cardboard box (back to the money=motivator thing)
[18:35] <toad_> _I_ know that in practice software patents are a disaster, but how do you beat the high level lie?
[18:35] <d-ArkAngel> you have a copyright on it.
[18:35] <mazzanet> just need to rebuild it
[18:35] <d-ArkAngel> that's a totaly different thing.
[18:35] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: so somebody else would reverse engineer it and reimplement it
[18:35] <toad_> and market it better
[18:35] <toad_> and you don't get the money
[18:36] <d-ArkAngel> and what have you been doing in the time it's take them to reverse engineer it and re-implement?
[18:37] <TheSeeker> would a software patent cover algorythms? or the general idea of a function? the binary representation in a specific architecture? for it to be effective at all, it would have to be very general, which is bad, but if it was at all specific it would be too easy to get around.
[18:37] <d-ArkAngel> software patents exists for stuff like having a single click purchse something.
[18:38] <TheSeeker> creating an idea from scratch takes a lot of effort. observing a program and copying it's funtionality (even from scratch) is often much easeier...
[18:38] <d-ArkAngel> of having a right click bring up a menu related to the context
[18:38] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: many, MANY, will argue that there are nontrivial software patents
[18:38] <toad_> for example the MP3 format
[18:39] <d-ArkAngel> the MP3 compression algols are just a mathmatical representation of the sound we hear.
[18:39] <TheSeeker> does that stop at being a "right click" using a mouse? or anythign which involves a user unteractng with a representation of data and getting a list of fnctions to perform relating to that data?
[18:39] <d-ArkAngel> are you going to start letting physisits pattent laws of physics as long as they are complex enough?
[18:39] <TheSeeker> erk, typo city
[18:40] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: well, laws of physics are important to traditional patents too
[18:40] <toad_> and we have to avoid arguing against ALL patents
[18:40] <d-ArkAngel> but them selves are not pattented
[18:40] <d-ArkAngel> people pattent industrial applications of such laws, not the laws them selve.s
[18:41] <mazzanet> toad_: how much effort would it take to have seednodes.ref/unstable.ref compressed to .tar.gz?
[18:41] <d-ArkAngel> specfic methods of doing things, not the underlying reason for doing things
[18:41] <toad_> mazzanet: they are in some tar.gz's
[18:41] <toad_> along with other stuff
[18:41] <toad_> also there are .bz2's
[18:42] <mazzanet> i can only see .bz2s in snapshots
[18:42] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yes, and the MP3 format is a particular way of using what we know about acoustics
[18:42] <toad_> mazzanet: there are the unix .tgz's
[18:42] <toad_> which include references
[18:42] <toad_> there are also the .bz2's
[18:42] <toad_> why do you need them?
[18:42] <d-ArkAngel> no it's not. it's a mathmatical representation of sound. it's a way of descibing something. if you can pattent that you're back to pattenting physics again
[18:43] <mazzanet> toad_: wininstaller - "> Also, we should provide a seednodes.ref.zip (or .gz), and have the wininstaller unzip it."
[18:44] <d-ArkAngel> there is no place inside software for a pattent, in the same way there is no place for them in art, or mathmatics.
[18:45] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: and what exactly do traditional patents patent? everything is derived from the laws of nature; once you have the science down, in software, the application is usually quite easy
[18:45] <d-ArkAngel> copyright is all fine and dandy, but you can't pattent the laws of newtonian motion, and you can't pattent mathmatical representations of the way light reflects off an object, and you can't patten the smile of a child.
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[18:47] <TheSeeker> you can trademark that last one if you use it in your advertisements...
[18:47] <d-ArkAngel> trademarks are different again
[18:47] <TheSeeker> yeah
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[18:49] <d-ArkAngel> there are no non trivial software pattents. all software is part of something else, and concepts are interrelated and linked in ways that don't happen in the real world because everything in a computer starts life as something new and quickly becomes a meer biulding block for everything after it.
[18:50] <TheSeeker> hmm, when was the last time someone came up with something so original and difficult that nobody was able to reverse engineer or copy it quicky?
[18:51] <d-ArkAngel> software is the most inovative field.
[18:52] <d-ArkAngel> it costs nothing for someone to sit down and write some software.
[18:52] <d-ArkAngel> that software can do anything they write it to do.
[18:53] <d-ArkAngel> solutions to the same problems have logical (and in fact provably best) solutions.
[18:55] <d-ArkAngel> how long has the combo box been arround?
[18:55] <d-ArkAngel> maybe 15 years?
[18:56] <d-ArkAngel> something that at it's inception was totaly new, and would have surely been (as software) patentable.
[18:56] <d-ArkAngel> apply that same fact to every UI element that has been developed over the course of the development of the computer.
[18:57] <d-ArkAngel> think about the fact that every piece of software uses almost all of them to provide a suitable UI that meets the standards expected by users.
[18:57] <d-ArkAngel> and now realise that they'd still all be under pattent for at least the next 35 years
[18:58] <d-ArkAngel> and that every application would have to pay fees on every single UI element that it uses.
[18:59] <d-ArkAngel> it's insane to say that this element of software is complex enough to warent a patten based on the speed of increase of the complexity of computer software.
[19:00] <d-ArkAngel> over the last 50 years computers have gone from not exisiting to where they are. Engineering has been around for thousands of years and progresses at a much slower rate. comparatively pattents on software would have to last hours not years.
[19:02] <toad_> 35 years?
[19:04] <toad_> okay so the argument goes:
[19:05] <toad_> in traditional fields, you don't patent the laws of nature, you patent the new and clever way you've found to exploit them to do something useful
[19:05] <toad_> in software, you have to patent the laws of nature themselves, because the application of the laws is trivial?
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[20:04] <TheSeeker> I wonder how much random garage gets fed into Freenet every day? would constantly uploading chunks of random data have any affect on actual content? I suppose the theory is that requested stuff gets propogated, but wouldn't a constant stream of random data (especially from multiple points in the network) push real content out of datastores?
[20:17] <TheSeeker> hrm, my jvm just crashed :/
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[22:05] <KenMan> TheSeeker: constant insertion of random garbage would have a negative and measurable impact
[22:06] <KenMan> primarily, it makes everything harder to fetch, as the number of redundant copies for any meaningful content key is likely to be reduced
[22:07] <KenMan> but it takes a LOT of insertions to mess things up bad . The most popular data will be the least affected. The data it 'exterminates' is the least popular (least redundant) content
[22:09] <KenMan> You would have to compare the aggregate amount of work spent on serving genuine requests to the work spent on propagating garbage, to quantify it
[22:12] <KenMan> hey - maybe freenet works really really well, but someone or something is trashing it ! Yeah, that sounds good. And You can't prove Me wrong !
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[22:29] <KenMan> the java simulation is nearly as fast as a C++ version - i didn't expect to see a significant speed difference.
[22:35] <KenMan> memory use is VERY different, but then java requires the jvm support !
[22:35] <KenMan> however, the C++ implementation allows me to model very large networks, in comparison
[22:39] <mikeDOTd> someone wrote a freenet simulator in C++?
[22:44] * Disconnected.
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
