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[0:38] <salahx> Did something in 5100 break Gentoo ?
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[0:59] <salahx> oh i see the problem looksl iek tis sudo ...
[1:02] <salahx> Yepm, that's the problem: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71835
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[1:23] <salahx> Aha, here's the offending line: Defaults env_reset
[1:24] <TheSeeker> I think Freenet killed my internet connection earlier...
[1:24] <salahx> its happeend before
[1:34] <salahx> acutallyi ts better jsut to uncomment out this line:
[1:34] <salahx> Defaults:%wheel !env_reset
[1:40] <linagee> is there a frost board for freenet development?
[1:40] <salahx> well there is a freenet board
[1:40] <linagee> ah. i see. freenet->freenet
[1:40] <salahx> there is a Freenet developers mailing list
[1:41] <linagee> salahx: i prefer total underground anonimity. it makes it "fun" :)
[1:41] <salahx> Well actually some od the people do use mixmaster, etc.
[1:42] <linagee> salahx: huh?
[1:42] <linagee> od people?
[1:42] <salahx> err of
[1:42] <linagee> salahx: what is mixmaster?
[1:43] <salahx> http://mixmaster.sourceforge.net/faq.shtml
[1:44] <linagee> salahx: it's a remailer?
[1:44] <salahx> yep
[1:48] <linagee> salahx: if you search for all files from all boards in frost, how many files comes up for you? (just trying to compare)
[1:48] <linagee> i get like 360 files
[1:49] <salahx> lemme check
[1:49] <salahx> 454 here
[1:50] <linagee> salahx: hrm. i guess i "still can't see all of freenet" :)
[1:50] <linagee> salahx: or you are just subscribed to more boards. :)
[1:51] <salahx> well recently there was an imcpnaitbly between Frost and FReenet STabel 5099
[1:51] <linagee> hrm. heh. i just got 5100 stable
[1:52] <salahx> including 5100
[1:52] <salahx> so grab the newest version of Frost
[1:53] <salahx> I sitl ca'nt get any of the files I request though
[1:53] <salahx> but tha'ts BAU
[1:57] <linagee> BAU?
[1:58] <salahx> Business As Usual
[1:58] <linagee> :( i need to get another DVD burner but fry's is closed. hehehe
[1:58] <salahx> they'll be open tomarrow
[1:59] <linagee> salahx: yeah, but why do stores have to close? :) cheap bastards! :)
[1:59] <salahx> well ther are some 24-hr stores
[1:59] <linagee> they just don't want to pay employees to work 24/7 :)
[1:59] <salahx> there's a walmart near me that's 24-7
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[1:59] <linagee> salahx: weird. never seen one of those
[1:59] <linagee> (maybe it's a california thing. very few 24/7 places)
[2:00] <salahx> maybe
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[2:16] <linagee> fooey! freenet is grabbing up all my bandwidth. *reaches for kill switch*
[2:16] <mikeDOTd> you can throttle the bandwidth somewhat in freenet.conf/freenet.ini
[2:16] <linagee> mikeDOTd: i heard that was broken
[2:17] <mikeDOTd> linagee: it sort of works :-)
[2:17] <linagee> er, i heard downstream throttling is broken?
[2:17] <mikeDOTd> ah yes, that's probably broken
[2:17] <linagee> :(
[2:17] * Ribs (~freenode@riblet.plus.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[2:18] <linagee> mikeDOTd: i guess i would have to put freenet on another machine and set up a throttling firewall. seems like a lot of work. hah
[2:20] * linagee stabeths his freenet
[2:21] * linagee can't wait until tomorrow then i can call my ISP and demand 6mbps! :)
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[2:22] * linagee eats Ribs
[2:22] <mikeDOTd> yum
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[2:43] * Ribs gives linagee indegestion
[2:43] <linagee> ohhhh. why did you have to do that? :-/
[2:43] * linagee blows a big fart
[2:43] <linagee> :)
[2:44] * linagee runs to the bathroom and "gets rid of" Ribs. :)
[2:45] * hobx requests an elevation of level of conversation by about 15 years.
[2:46] <mikeDOTd> poop
[2:46] <mikeDOTd> ;-)
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[2:56] <linagee> hobx: so you want me to talk like a 40 yr old? LOL
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[2:58] <sanity> hobx: you are up early
[2:58] <hobx> have class
[2:59] <sanity> although i guess not as early as i am
[2:59] <hobx> then I'm gonna go quit my job
[2:59] <sanity> yay!
[2:59] <hobx> I've been up for an hour.
[2:59] <hobx> You are probably up late.
[2:59] <hobx> ("Are you up yet? We are up yet!")
[2:59] <sanity> nah, cat woke me up
[2:59] <sanity> as usual
[2:59] <sanity> bloody cat
[3:00] <sanity> he is making me nocturnal
[3:00] <hobx> sanity can't handle being temporarily a single catowner...
[3:00] <sanity> it rough man
[3:01] <sanity> i'm knee high in cat shit and hes playing some kind of feline psychological warfare... and winning
[3:02] <linagee> sanity: force your cat to go to sleep when you do. :)
[3:02] <hobx> I think women are better equipped to handle cats. They have more in common psycologically.
[3:02] <linagee> sanity: show him who's master. :)
[3:02] <sanity> on the up side, i temporarily have a monitor the size of Kansas
[3:02] <hobx> Men are more like dogs. Desperately and without dignity seeking affection whereever we can get it...
[3:02] <linagee> sanity: it's called finding food he'll eat no matter what, and sleeping pills. :)
[3:03] <sanity> i think i have showed him who's master
[3:03] <linagee> (just don't overdose. hahaha)
[3:03] <sanity> (it isn't me)
[3:03] <sanity> yeah, gf wouldn't be impressed if i poisoned the cat
[3:03] <linagee> sanity: really, if you want to set your cat to sleep when you do, i'm sure your vet can get you the right dosage. :)
[3:03] <hobx> so replace him before she comes back
[3:03] <hobx> cats are eminently replacable.
[3:03] <sanity> he does go to sleep when i do, he just won't stay asleep
[3:04] <linagee> sanity: just like people, do it long enough and their sleep cycle will change to whatever. :)
[3:04] <sanity> hobx: i don't think so
[3:04] <sanity> hobx: dogs maybe, but not cats
[3:04] <linagee> hobx: have the cat cloned. :)
[3:04] <linagee> hobx: Clone-A-Pet. :)
[3:04] <linagee> i mean, RePet. :)
[3:05] * linagee lends the governator to hobx for the cloning process. :)
[3:05] <hobx> no. Dogs build social relationships with people in a completely different way.
[3:05] <hobx> Fuck the cat
[3:05] <linagee> hobx: messy
[3:05] <hobx> I'm the genius, they should clone me
[3:05] <sanity> i don't think that would help, nor would it be legal
[3:05] <linagee> LOL
[3:05] <hobx> it is legal here
[3:06] <sanity> beastiality?
[3:06] <hobx> except if they can argue it was animal torture.
[3:06] <linagee> hobx: they will ask the cat if it liked it? lol
[3:06] <hobx> yeah. Apparently most european animal porn is recorded here.
[3:06] <linagee> "was it good for you too?" LOL
[3:06] <linagee> hobx: cat porn. only on freenet. hahahaha
[3:06] <sanity> fascinating
[3:06] <hobx> sanity: Or you can go to Wales, which is closer.
[3:07] <sanity> it may be popular there, but it isn't legal
[3:07] <linagee> or dolphin porn on freenet. as funny as that is, i don't doubt it's out there. hahahah
[3:07] <linagee> hobx: go to Wales? isn't that still beastiality? lol
[3:07] <sanity> it is way to early in the day for this kind of conversation
[3:07] <linagee> sanity: s/early/late/
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[3:22] <spamhog> Sardinians have a reputation for doing both sheep and chickens. Not sure how deserved.
[3:26] <hobx> well, we succeeded in raising the level by about seven of the fifteen years I requested...
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[3:50] <KenMan> hey, what are you guys doing up this late/early ??!
[3:51] <KenMan> hobx, your 7 hours of daylight shouldn't even have started yet, has it ?
[3:52] * linagee is up late. it's only 12:53AM. :)
[3:53] <KenMan> ahh... good excuse.
[3:57] <KenMan> sanity should install a door for his bedroom. Put cat outside bedroom. Shut bedroom door. Cat gets too loud ? Lock him up in distant bathroom with some old towels to shred...
[4:00] <KenMan> probably too late to take that approach, as Cat is now master. pupok returns, so cat resumes sleeping in bedroom. Cat then makes remainder of Math.min(catslife,ianslife) a serious hell.
[4:02] <KenMan> dogs never hold a grudge!! Cats , on the (backside of) the other hand, never forget. They are like tiny elephants, with claws!
[4:04] <KenMan> :p I'm so glad I descended from dog-people... no cat-lovers in my bloodlines!
[4:05] <KenMan> PS - I'm rebuilding the simulator in C++. I don't expect it to be much faster, I just needed an excuse to play with STL.
[4:06] <KenMan> implementing the estimators (SBKE) will be a bitch! But maybe it will turn up something useful, as I slog through the existing code.
[4:07] <linagee> can i get fuquid from the public internet
[4:07] <linagee> ?
[4:07] <KenMan> hmm, i think i wondered that once myself. My knee-jerk first guess is 'no' :(
[4:08] <linagee> KenMan: it's just a program, right?
[4:08] <KenMan> right. A windows (pascal) exe program, i think
[4:09] <linagee> KenMan: what, was it illegally compiled or something? why would it not be in the public internet? :(
[4:09] <KenMan> I dunno, search for it ! Let us know! Perhaps it can be found in FreenetProject.org ?!
[4:10] <linagee> aha
[4:10] <linagee> i was spelling it wrong. :)
[4:11] <linagee> KenMan: there's a japanese version you can d/l
[4:11] <KenMan> eeks. I don't do japanese.
[4:12] <linagee> it's in english though. :)
[4:12] <linagee> (the program)
[4:12] <KenMan> but you are (geographically) closer to japan than me anyway
[4:12] <linagee> (just the website is japanese)
[4:12] <KenMan> well good luck, must go sleep for a few hours...
[4:13] <linagee> KenMan: bah. sleep is for the weak! :)
[4:13] <KenMan> AND the tired...
[4:13] <linagee> lol. :)
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[5:22] <kevloral> g'morning all
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[6:24] <toad_> yes, downstream throttling probably is broken, but downstream shouldn't exceed upstream by very much unless you're doing loads of downloads!
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[6:25] <akhfsk> anybody around?
[6:26] <toad_> [07:44:01] Ribs gives linagee indegestion
[6:26] <toad_> [07:44:18] <linagee> ohhhh. why did you have to do that? :-/
[6:26] <toad_> [07:44:25] linagee blows a big fart
[6:26] <toad_> [07:44:26] <linagee> :)
[6:26] <toad_> [07:44:52] linagee runs to the bathroom and "gets rid of" Ribs. :)
[6:26] <toad_> [07:46:43] hobx requests an elevation of level of conversation by about 15 years.
[6:27] * toad_ wonders if he should make the obvious remark about hobx's typical conversation levels involving sexual harassment of students...
[6:27] <toad_> akhfsk: hi
[6:27] <akhfsk> toad, is there a seed file on ANY other machine but freenetproj.org
[6:27] <akhfsk> it's unbelieveably slow
[6:27] <toad_> akhfsk: there are a few
[6:27] <akhfsk> do you have a url to one of those?
[6:27] <toad_> but the central seednodes should be adequate
[6:27] <toad_> no
[6:27] <akhfsk> bah
[6:27] <toad_> did you just install?
[6:27] <akhfsk> it's going to take >1 hour to download a 15m file :-(
[6:28] <akhfsk> im installing, but it's going to take an hour to download seednodes
[6:28] <toad_> it's always slow to begin with - how many connections do you have?
[6:28] <toad_> ohhh
[6:28] <toad_> download the zip then
[6:28] <akhfsk> url?
[6:28] <toad_> :)
[6:28] <toad_> seednodes.ref.zip :)
[6:28] <toad_> from the same place as seednodes.ref
[6:28] <toad_> are you on dial-up btw?
[6:28] <d-ArkAngel> or ref.bz2 if you have something that can uncompress bz2 files :-)
[6:29] <akhfsk> no, not at all
[6:29] <akhfsk> im on dsl
[6:29] <toad_> sourceforge has been a bit slow lately
[6:29] <d-ArkAngel> the download performance is horrible.
[6:29] <akhfsk> i have... bunzip2 :-)
[6:29] <toad_> okay so get the seednodes.ref.bz2
[6:29] <toad_> no problem
[6:29] <d-ArkAngel> it was about 2-3kb/s yesturday when I was trying to update.
[6:30] <toad_> 2-3kB/sec
[6:30] <toad_> yes
[6:30] <d-ArkAngel> it's only about 500kb rather than 15Mb
[6:30] <akhfsk> I can't find seednodes.ref.bz2
[6:30] <akhfsk> heh
[6:30] <akhfsk> :-(
[6:30] <toad_> freenetproject.org/snapshots/
[6:30] <akhfsk> ah its in snapshots
[6:30] <akhfsk> thankls
[6:31] <toad_> where did you expect it to be? the other one's also in snapshots
[6:31] <akhfsk> ah, that's much better
[6:31] <akhfsk> 1 minute vs. 1 hour
[6:32] <toad_> why were you downloading the .ref directly btw?
[6:33] <akhfsk> the install program was downloading it directly...
[6:33] <toad_> what install program? the windows one?
[6:33] <akhfsk> yes
[6:33] <toad_> ugh
[6:33] <akhfsk> ?
[6:34] <akhfsk> should i install it on the unix box isntead?
[6:34] <toad_> well the wininstaller isn't very well maintained, unfortunately, and you reminded me of the fact
[6:34] <akhfsk> you a dev?
[6:34] <toad_> we were thinking about making it download a zip
[6:34] <toad_> but apparently we don't have a zip for it to download
[6:35] <toad_> yeah
[6:35] <akhfsk> how high on the totem pole/
[6:35] <toad_> the top
[6:35] <akhfsk> the paid dev?
[6:35] <toad_> except for ian, who doesn't code
[6:36] <toad_> yeah
[6:36] <akhfsk> not bad
[6:36] <akhfsk> how is development from the community?
[6:36] <toad_> highly variable, as you'd expect from volunteers
[6:37] <akhfsk> heh
[6:37] <toad_> but there's quite a lot of it
[6:37] <akhfsk> so you're matt?
[6:38] <toad_> yeah, the paid dev, the Official Codemonkey, The Amphibian, The Toad, Toad, Matthew, That Idiot Who Hasn't Got Freenet To Work Yet And Has Blown $20K :)
[6:38] <akhfsk> ha
[6:38] <akhfsk> hasn't got freenet to work?
[6:39] <akhfsk> how so
[6:39] <d-ArkAngel> it works, but it down't work.
[6:39] <toad_> oh, i think we've improved it somewhat
[6:39] <toad_> but the task overall is greater than any single one of us
[6:40] <toad_> it may be greater than all of us, but i believe we'll make it
[6:40] <d-ArkAngel> but "work" in this context is the end point, where we know it scales well, and learns qucikly, and can print money on request, and is faster than the internet... ok, well you get what I mean :-)
[6:40] <toad_> hehe
[6:40] <akhfsk> print money on request :-) sounds like a good feature
[6:40] <toad_> needs suitable hardware :)
[6:40] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, I keep asking them to put that in, but they don't seem interested.
[6:41] <yonkeltron> we should def add that feature
[6:41] <yonkeltron> but the prob is the printers that are keyed to recognize money and change the image
[6:41] <akhfsk> but then you'd have to support different currencies, and it would become a pain :-P
[6:41] <d-ArkAngel> there'd have to be significant internal testing of that feature before it's released to the public of corse :-)
[6:42] <toad_> actually i think working faster than the internet is feasible in the long term for many use scenarios
[6:42] <yonkeltron> well that is what beta testers like me are here for!
[6:42] <toad_> faster than bittorrent certainly is feasible
[6:42] <d-ArkAngel> faster than a speeding bullet?
[6:42] <yonkeltron> toad_: with files in high demand yes
[6:42] <akhfsk> will it kill your processor the way bittorrent though...
[6:42] <toad_> yonkeltron: for moderate popularity, largish files even
[6:42] <toad_> for really popular files, bt will always max the link
[6:43] <yonkeltron> d-Arkangel: data moves faster than a speeding bullet now.......even on serial cables and such
[6:43] <akhfsk> ha
[6:43] <d-ArkAngel> and yet a student on a moped can transfer data faster than any netowork link :-)
[6:44] <yonkeltron> d-arkangel: wha?
[6:44] <akhfsk> have you guys thought about doing irc over freeneT?
[6:44] <akhfsk> (that's how i found the project)
[6:44] <yonkeltron> aight i gotta get to class........start to get the DT's when i am away from the lab too much
[6:45] <toad_> akhfsk: freenet has very high latency
[6:45] <akhfsk> ah
[6:45] <toad_> akhfsk: one day, perhaps#
[6:45] <toad_> but for now, you need something like i2p (www.i2p.net), or Tor, for anon IRC
[6:45] <akhfsk> i need to hurry up and get my node up so i can offer child porn and terrorist documentation
[6:45] <akhfsk> j/k :-P
[6:45] <toad_> :)
[6:45] <akhfsk> Tor?
[6:46] <yonkeltron> i'd like to be able to have a neural link to freenet
[6:46] <yonkeltron> call up any data i need and then display it in my head
[6:46] <yonkeltron> we should really do gopher over freenet
[6:46] <toad_> and anti-$cientology material, and flogs, and controversial videos (some of which are pirated), and the diebold files, and...
[6:46] <akhfsk> haha
[6:47] <toad_> yonkeltron: neural link to something seriously slow is interesting, you'd sort of have to be event driven..
[6:47] <yonkeltron> gopher is a much better protocol for right now in general......esp over something as HL as freenet
[6:47] <yonkeltron> i am event driven now......good morning dave
[6:47] <yonkeltron> ok
[6:47] <yonkeltron> gotta run
[6:48] <toad_> umm, gopher is just an older way of doing hypertext, right?
[6:48] <yonkeltron> toad_: no....gopher is the pre-web protocol....no hybertext needed
[6:48] <toad_> gopher is a way to get lists of links, and text documents
[6:48] <yonkeltron> it's a fantastic way to store large amounts of data in a hierarchy
[6:48] <yonkeltron> or images or whatever!
[6:48] <yonkeltron> ok i need to go!
[6:48] <toad_> hypertext is better than gopher in every respect...
[6:49] * yonkeltron heads off
[6:49] <toad_> seeya
[6:49] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) has joined #FreeNet
[6:50] * toad_ thinks free unlimited web hosting is another area i'd like to see freenet work on
[6:50] <toad_> i mean work for
[6:50] <d-ArkAngel> toad, I've been having a few thoughts about things. freesites are nice enough, but they lack the interactivity of websites. and while javascript would be nice, it'd be a security nightmare.
[6:50] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: and?
[6:50] <toad_> what's your point?
[6:50] <d-ArkAngel> how about our own simple scripng lang.
[6:50] <toad_> ah, i see
[6:51] <toad_> I believe the last time we discussed this ian said "over my dead body", or words to that effect
[6:51] <d-ArkAngel> why?
[6:51] <toad_> look at all the precedents
[6:51] <toad_> for example, java applets
[6:51] <toad_> securing potentially hostile provided code is HARD
[6:51] <toad_> and we'd have a much stricter set of things to protect against too
[6:52] <d-ArkAngel> like what?
[6:52] <toad_> we can't even let it know what the time is, because it could time requests
[6:52] <toad_> and since we have DBRs, that's a problem
[6:53] <toad_> also for most apps you'd want some client side scripting
[6:53] <toad_> s/client/browser
[6:54] <d-ArkAngel> my thoughts were more providing the ability to have standard actions happen with a page.
[6:55] <akhfsk> blahhh
[6:55] <akhfsk> windows app kinda broken :-(
[6:55] <d-ArkAngel> rather than a fully scripted environment.
[6:55] <toad_> problem?
[6:55] <akhfsk> problems importing seednodes
[6:55] <akhfsk> is the windows app opensource?
[6:55] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: the problem with recipes is you have to maintain them
[6:56] <toad_> akhfsk: sure
[6:56] <toad_> akhfsk: what's the problem exactly?
[6:56] <toad_> you forgot to bunzip2 the seednodes?
[6:56] <d-ArkAngel> that's true.
[6:56] <akhfsk> no, lol.
[6:56] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: and you'd want to be able to do quite sophisticated stuff e.g. /. like message boards
[6:57] <toad_> which would require substantial scripting
[6:57] <akhfsk> when i try to get local references it gives me "error can not retrieve the seed file"
[6:57] <d-ArkAngel> well frost works kinda like that doesn't it?
[6:57] <toad_> it depends what you care about - you can perhaps protect the local datastore by simply always having skip datastore on all requests originated by scripting
[6:57] <toad_> then you'd only be able to find out about our general locality..
[6:58] <d-ArkAngel> or as you say just provide no timing information....
[6:58] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: sure but if you could inline it in a freesite
[6:58] <toad_> that'd be much cooler
[6:58] <d-ArkAngel> indeed.
[6:58] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: sure, but providing no timing info is hard
[6:58] <d-ArkAngel> what I was thinking was something like frost
[6:58] <toad_> given for example DBRs
[6:58] <toad_> and if you want to implement message boards, you'll probably use DBRs or similar
[6:59] <toad_> so I think no timing info is a nonstarter
[6:59] <d-ArkAngel> but where it has the ability to integrate more closely with the freenet code.
[6:59] <d-ArkAngel> kinda like a plugin.
[7:00] <toad_> hmmm.. maybe..
[7:00] <d-ArkAngel> it'd be just as possible for someone to develop a backdoor in a plugin...
[7:00] <toad_> another obvious app is searching - we CAN build a search client in fproxy, but then you have to fix the format
[7:00] <d-ArkAngel> but then who's to say that frost doesn't have a backdoor... or even freenet for that matter.
[7:00] <toad_> whereas if you can use a turing complete but safe language...
[7:00] * Daver2 (~Daver2@pcp0011036334pcs.wilmsc01.tn.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[7:01] <kevloral> d-ArkAngel: I do. :-) (by the way, there is no scripting language in frost at all)
[7:01] <toad_> another way to make stuff safe would be to not allow inserts, or to not allow them without confirmation, but that's very limiting..
[7:01] <toad_> kevloral: you do what?
[7:01] <d-ArkAngel> I never said there was scripting in frost
[7:01] <toad_> well of course there's no scripting in frost.. that'd be insane..
[7:01] <d-ArkAngel> I implied that frost practicaly was scripting.
[7:02] <d-ArkAngel> since it's and application that runs on freenet.
[7:02] <d-ArkAngel> but it could also integrate more closely with freenet it's self in terms of linking into freesites
[7:02] <d-ArkAngel> by being interfaced through fproxy somehow
[7:03] <d-ArkAngel> note the use of the phrase somehow ;-) this is a dream no a solution
[7:03] <toad_> e.g. by having an HTML interface as well as a swing interface?
[7:03] <kevloral> d-ArkAngel: ah, well, that's different.
[7:04] <d-ArkAngel> if fproxy provided the ability for people to write application (frost style) plugins that provide the functionality
[7:04] <kevloral> toad_: I do say that frost doesn't have a backdoor. :-)
[7:04] <toad_> some form of scripting is very attractive
[7:04] <toad_> plugins might be safer
[7:04] <toad_> more likely to get properly peer reviewed
[7:05] <d-ArkAngel> like anything it's only as secure as the user wants it to be.
[7:05] <toad_> having said that, a restricted language can be reasonably secure against many attacks
[7:05] <toad_> for example, you can control what methods it can call
[7:06] <d-ArkAngel> well you could have a combination. have the plugins be written in a restricted lang.
[7:06] * akhfsk (~irc@d57-68-107.home.cgocable.net) Quit ("Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?")
[7:06] <toad_> are timing attacks an issue at all if you don't have access to the local datastore?
[7:06] <d-ArkAngel> are they even if you do?
[7:07] <toad_> you can obscure it a bit by routing the requests 3 hops randomly without looking at the store.. but then you'd be able to tell which reqs are from scripting
[7:07] <d-ArkAngel> would a script be able to identify the node it was running on.
[7:07] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: they are definitely a problem if you do
[7:07] <toad_> that which is most requested by the node will be in its store
[7:07] <toad_> everything requested by the node will be in its store if it's not full
[7:07] <toad_> or inserted
[7:08] <toad_> you can build up a fingerprint from timing info - not of the node, but of the user
[7:08] <d-ArkAngel> biometric data you mean?
[7:09] <toad_> if you then insert it at htl 0 as a KSK, and request that from each node at htl 0 (we can beat this by not allowing htl 0 inserts) ... or if you just only insert it if you find somebody interesting enough...
[7:09] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: i mean, what frost posts he's got, what sites, and so on
[7:10] <d-ArkAngel> so you'd be able to identify individuals in freenet.... tho they'd still be anonymous outside.... tho it's still a problem....
[7:11] <toad_> freemail posts might be interesting, for example
[7:11] <d-ArkAngel> and if you can link all the persons actions then you may be able to ident them outside...
[7:11] <toad_> right
[7:11] <toad_> also there are social engineering attacks
[7:11] <toad_> mediated by scripts
[7:11] <toad_> for example, providing a different message depending on the node fingerprint, which people will then reply to
[7:12] <toad_> or only providing it to users of interest
[7:12] <d-ArkAngel> but it would be very hard to obscure the purpose of such a script...
[7:12] <toad_> yeah, i suppose it's an argument for plugins
[7:12] <d-ArkAngel> given the inherant complexity of identifying a fingerprint
[7:13] * toad_ has reconstructed the whole of page 1 of WGB
[7:13] <toad_> and most of page 2
[7:14] <toad_> and page 3 except for its images
[7:14] <d-ArkAngel> also you could allow freesite authors to sign the plugins that they have used in delivering their site, and include those signatures in the freepages.
[7:14] <d-ArkAngel> WGB?
[7:14] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yes but just because they've published good stuff doesn't mean they're trustworthy
[7:14] <d-ArkAngel> indeed not.
[7:14] <toad_> a mole might run an interesting flog for a year just so they could get people to run their scripting
[7:15] <toad_> Walls Get Bombed. very old, unpopular freesite.
[7:15] <toad_> by FillaMent, a catalogue of graffiti
[7:15] <d-ArkAngel> but it would limit the ability for a plugin script to fingerprint you, since it wouldn't be trusted by most pages (assuming that it's not been signed by mistake - and for it to do something as complex as fingerprinting that's a big mistake)
[7:16] <toad_> would you expect most freesite authors to manually verify the code they use?
[7:16] <toad_> i doubt it..
[7:17] <d-ArkAngel> well given the paranoid nature of freenet users lots would :-)
[7:17] <toad_> and you can obscure scripting so it doesn't immediately look like its doing what it is
[7:17] <toad_> you can make it very hard to comprehend
[7:18] <d-ArkAngel> how many people have contributed code to freenet?
[7:18] <toad_> lots
[7:18] <d-ArkAngel> and it's all easy to understand and transparent of purpose? :-)
[7:18] <toad_> :)
[7:18] <d-ArkAngel> there are no gaurentees
[7:19] <toad_> well lets back out a bit
[7:19] <d-ArkAngel> unless you personaly read all the code that you are willing to trust, quite a lot of it is a leap of faith.
[7:19] <toad_> if we can ensure that the scripts have no access to the local datastore, then are the timing attacks neutralized?
[7:19] <d-ArkAngel> I think we can probably say yes.
[7:20] <toad_> you can only observe roughly where the node is..
[7:20] <toad_> of course, this means any client-cache we implement isn't used by scripts
[7:20] <d-ArkAngel> which is pretty usless, since you can't nail down where any data is in the network
[7:20] <toad_> which means extra requests, which give more opportunity for giving away anon
[7:21] <toad_> well, you can probably figure out the specialization...
[7:21] <toad_> just by requesting lots of keys and seeing which ones are fastest?
[7:21] * Daver2 (~Daver2@pcp0011036334pcs.wilmsc01.tn.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[7:22] <toad_> if you random route the first 3 hops, then that would solve the problem
[7:22] <d-ArkAngel> but that never proves anything does it?
[7:22] <toad_> unfortunately, that would also CAUSE problems - namely that the first 3 hops KNOW you are random routing, and you don't want to do this on every request
[7:22] <toad_> so they can tell that it's very likely a script originated request
[7:22] <d-ArkAngel> I don't think we'd need that.
[7:23] <toad_> why not?
[7:23] <d-ArkAngel> as long as you don't look at this data store we're safe enough.
[7:23] <d-ArkAngel> data clusters based on it's key, which is not related to it's content is it?
[7:23] <toad_> one critical precaution is to make sure it can't do low HTL inserts; I have proposed various mechanisms to ensure that inserts always go to lots of nodes
[7:24] <d-ArkAngel> so being able to prove that someone's general area of specilisation probably is based on the responses of their peers proves nothing about their content
[7:24] <toad_> well maybe; you might be able to see what's cached on the nearby nodes though
[7:24] <d-ArkAngel> and how would that help?
[7:25] <toad_> combined with the specialization?
[7:25] <toad_> i'd say it could help a lot..
[7:25] <d-ArkAngel> if you're generating requests for it to probe for it then you're going to improve the speed over time anyway
[7:25] <d-ArkAngel> but you wouldn't know what peer the request was routed to.
[7:26] <toad_> actually random routing a few hops might have beneficial network effects...
[7:26] <d-ArkAngel> you don't know how many peers there are.
[7:26] <d-ArkAngel> well there's talk of a premix being brough in anyway isn't there?
[7:26] <toad_> it'd have anon issues though
[7:26] <toad_> well yes but you can only premix to somebody in your RT, through your RT
[7:26] <toad_> also premix is hard
[7:26] <toad_> and not likely before about 0.9 for that reason
[7:27] * d-ArkAngel must be missing something, I thought it was simple enough...
[7:27] <toad_> it's not
[7:27] <toad_> i explained this on tech a while ago
[7:27] <toad_> connections are the problem
[7:28] <toad_> you want to premix route to C via N and E
[7:28] <toad_> you are connected to N
[7:28] <d-ArkAngel> because you have to be able to stop peers knowing that you started the request?
[7:28] <toad_> N needs to open a connection to E in order to send the data on
[7:29] <toad_> which is a dead giveaway for traffic analysis, and also causes other problems
[7:29] <d-ArkAngel> hmm
[7:29] <toad_> it's all explained on some posts on tech
[7:29] <d-ArkAngel> so it'd have to be random length premix then?
[7:30] <toad_> no, that's not it
[7:30] <toad_> that's not the problem
[7:30] <toad_> the problem is the interaction between premix routing and connections
[7:31] <toad_> if we can only forward through open conns, then a) they can easily be arranged by a hostile node in such a way that it knows we were the requestor, and b) we have to know them
[7:31] <toad_> if we always open a conn, then we have high connection flux, we have to not use them for FNP, only for premix, otherwise RT takeover is a problem
[7:32] <toad_> and we give away a ton of traffic analysis data
[7:32] <toad_> and so on
[7:32] <toad_> it's hard
[7:32] <toad_> you can set up the tunnels in advance, of course
[7:32] <toad_> but even then, this is a problem
[7:32] <toad_> you can't really allow tunnel setup to fail
[7:32] <toad_> because it might be on purpose
[7:33] <toad_> building a scalable mixnet is pretty hard :|
[7:33] <toad_> but it seems to be the only way to prevent correlation attacks
[7:35] <toad_> if we could avoid it completely that'd be great, but i don't think we can
[7:35] <toad_> unfortunately fixed size keys will make it a lot more urgent
[7:36] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[7:38] <d-ArkAngel> is there any real way of protecting a node that suffers from a total connections tap tho?
[7:39] <sanity> the big problem with mixnets is how you find out about new peers in a way that can't be attacked
[7:40] <sanity> i haven't seen a satisfactory solution to this problem - for example, with Tor they are just centrally aggregated and distributed
[7:40] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yes, we can be immune to it if we don't need the mixnet
[7:40] <toad_> sanity: well, you bolt it onto something meritocratic
[7:40] <sanity> such as?
[7:40] <toad_> that's our proposed scenario
[7:40] <toad_> freenet
[7:41] <toad_> sanity: d-ArkAngel asked why premix routing is hard
[7:41] <toad_> so i had to explain it to him :|
[7:42] <sanity> well, except in freenet you can manipulate what peers are in someone's RT - if so, you can manipulate what peers it will choose to route through in the mixnet, and thus compromise it
[7:43] <toad_> sure, but that's an equal risk on freenet itself in the absence of a mixnet
[7:43] <toad_> RT takeover is an important attack to deal with
[7:43] <sanity> well, it would be difficult
[7:43] <toad_> which is half the problem with many of the premix proposals :|
[7:43] <sanity> announcement flood is probably the easiest way
[7:43] <toad_> what would be?
[7:43] <toad_> ah
[7:43] <sanity> but there are safeguards
[7:44] <toad_> possibly but then you need to keep making up identities
[7:44] <sanity> do you know how I2P addresses that issue?
[7:44] <sanity> Tor doesn't have a good solution
[7:44] <toad_> no, don't think so
[7:45] <sanity> in fact, i have never seen a good solution. using Freenet, or something like Freenet, to share information about nodes in a decentralised way is probably a good solution for these guys
[7:45] <d-ArkAngel> well to some extent, it's never going to be possible to gaurentee security in a network of unknown peers is it?
[7:45] <toad_> i thought they used a dht...
[7:46] <d-ArkAngel> no matter how many roadblocks you put up, theres always going to be unreasonably resource intensive attacks to worry about.
[7:46] <sanity> well, for this purpose Freenet would kinda serve as the DHT of sorts, probably something simpler would be just as good (such as the approach i am using in dijjer)
[7:46] <toad_> i don't know
[7:47] <sanity> d-ArkAngel: indeed, one of the things that distinguishes Freenet is our pragmatism, many in the anonymity space aren't satisfied with anything less than perfection, and consequently they get nowhere
[7:47] <toad_> some people regard our pragmatism as something rather less than pragmatism :)
[7:47] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, I think it's more about risk management than anything else.
[7:47] <toad_> e.g. oskar's comments on us having less anonymity than Crowds
[7:47] <hobx> we are satisfied with anything less than anonymity
[7:48] <sanity> toad: indeed, and they tend to the people who never make any progress
[7:48] <toad_> I do think we need to get rid of HTL
[7:48] <sanity> toad: crowds doesn't solve the peer acquisition problem
[7:48] <toad_> sanity: not necessarily; look at I2P
[7:48] <sanity> AFAIK it uses a centralised mechanism
[7:48] <toad_> I2P uses premix
[7:48] <sanity> toad: i am still waiting to see how I2P solves the peer acquisition problem, if at all
[7:48] <toad_> err mixnet
[7:48] <sanity> that is the key
[7:49] <toad_> you think it'd be easy enough to flood it with new peers?
[7:49] <hobx> I agree with Ian
[7:49] <sanity> and that is the achilles heel of most mixnets
[7:49] <sanity> perhaps all mixnets
[7:49] <toad_> I don't know how you can defend against that.. if They have lots of IPs, they can run lots of nodes, right?
[7:49] <hobx> a lot of the anonymity solutions are kind of like OTP encryption.
[7:49] <hobx> You are just shifting an equally hard problem to somewhere else.
[7:49] * sanity makes note in diary, Tuesday 23rd November 2004AD: Oskar Agreed with Ian
[7:49] <toad_> your only defence is numbers...
[7:50] <toad_> that is what you're talking about, correct?
[7:50] <hobx> The important thing to realize is that what one needs is not perfection, but measurable imperfection.
[7:50] <sanity> toad: exactly, and when mixnets start to rely on things like safety in numbers - they start to look quite alot like..... Freenet!
[7:50] <d-ArkAngel> the problem is that the closer you get to anonymity, the more difficult it is to take another step closer.
[7:50] <toad_> sanity: umm, freenet isn't a mixnet
[7:50] <hobx> Even a perfect crypto algorithm is not perfect in the sense that you can brute force the key - but at least you know exactly how difficult that is.
[7:51] <d-ArkAngel> and I suspect it's an infinatly complex problem.
[7:51] <sanity> toad: no, but it does rely on safety in numbers
[7:51] <toad_> hobx: well in theory you do, until somebody comes up with an analytical attack
[7:51] <toad_> e.g. there are some weaknesses in rijndael
[7:51] <hobx> that is why I said "perfect"
[7:51] <toad_> hobx: ok
[7:51] <hobx> Even a PERFECT crypto algorithm is not PERFECTLY SECURE in the sense that you can brute force the key - but at least you know exactly how difficult that is.
[7:52] <toad_> ok
[7:52] <hobx> (Not screaming, just emphasising.)
[7:52] <hobx> if I could have done italics, I would, and it would have seemed less rude.
[7:52] <sanity> hobx: yes it /would/
[7:53] <hobx> was just thinking that, but my client doesn't do replacement.
[7:53] <hobx> this _maybe_
[7:53] <hobx> noop
[7:53] <toad_> sanity: well, safety in numbers depends on really, really good performance, and preferably the suppression of mainstream p2p's...
[7:53] <toad_> having said that i'm not sure that safety in numbers can actually work
[7:53] <toad_> this maybe
[7:54] <toad_> I mean there are always economies of scale and so on
[7:54] <hobx> toad_: How to do?
[7:54] <sanity> well, its not a question of working or not working, its a question of degree
[7:54] <toad_> hobx: don't know, in your client; this is ksirc and it just does it when i
[7:54] <toad_> sanity: what is to stop the chinese government running a million nodes, relatively cheaply?
[7:54] <hobx> Perhaps I turned it off
[7:54] <sanity> anyway, my basic point is that mixnets and the like don't really have much of a right to be too smug relative to Freenet
[7:54] <sanity> toad: not much
[7:54] <toad_> they don't need a million PCs to run a million nodes
[7:55] <toad_> I doubt there will be more than a million nodes in china.. ever..
[7:55] <toad_> well not for the next hundred years or so anyway
[7:56] <toad_> some sort of introduction protocol could help, but you always need existing nodes to be able to introduce new nodes for free
[7:56] <sanity> oh wonderful, I2P uses a hosts.txt file - they are roughly where DNS was in the 70s
[7:56] <toad_> sanity: it's the only way to do it safely
[7:57] <sanity> http://dev.i2p.net/i2p/hosts.txt
[7:57] <hobx> and how safe is that toad?
[7:57] <toad_> sanity: distributed secure anonymous DNS is a contradiction in terms
[7:57] <toad_> hobx: that's my point
[7:57] <hobx> A single point of sever sending out unsigned code.
[7:57] <toad_> hobx: once a node is on the network, it can introduce all its friends
[7:57] <toad_> granted there are rate limits on it, but it comes down to numbers, and Big Gov can probably make numbers pretty cheaply
[7:58] <hobx> like my local waste network
[7:58] <toad_> one multiterabyte server, masquerading as a million nodes on a million IPs
[7:58] <hobx> all these people I do not know keep popping up because they are friends of friends of friends.
[7:58] <sanity> toad: i didn't mean it like that - I2P does node acquisition in an entirely centralized way as far as I can see. as oskar said, they haven't solved the hard problem, they have just obscured it
[7:58] <hobx> Within two years the whole world will be on it.
[7:58] <toad_> sanity: eh?
[7:58] <toad_> sanity: I don't see any centralization
[7:58] <toad_> sanity: the hosts file is just a list of aliases
[7:58] <toad_> you can use your own, or none at all
[7:58] <hobx> which somebody collected
[7:59] <toad_> sure
[7:59] <toad_> you can use none at all but then you have to put up with absurdly long URLs
[7:59] <hobx> and which is then used by everybody.
[7:59] <hobx> Can't all you guys get skype?
[7:59] <sanity> toad: how does I2P figure out the IP addresses of new peers?
[7:59] <toad_> it doesn't tell you how to get to the nodes; it's not used for discovery in the mixnet sense
[7:59] <hobx> chatting with text is so last century
[7:59] <toad_> sanity: huh?
[8:00] <hobx> and I can't eat and type (Can eat and talk!!!)
[8:00] <sanity> toad: so how does I2P do peer discovery?
[8:00] <toad_> hobx: so get some voice recognition software or something
[8:00] <toad_> sanity: i don't know, but it's something to do with the DHT
[8:00] <toad_> i'm pretty sure it's decentralized
[8:00] <toad_> like everything else (core) i2p does
[8:01] <sanity> well since their entire security hinges on that, it is pretty important
[8:01] <toad_> probably the nodes go into the DHT
[8:01] <hobx> toad_: I think that would be very frustrating. I have a theory that the brain actually has learned to slow down all functions when talking on irc because the return time of what you say is so long.
[8:01] <toad_> well it's easy to criticise it on a hostile board with hostile people when jrandom isn't around
[8:01] <hobx> So to be able to allow one to treat it like a normal convervsation, the brain just thinks slower
[8:01] <toad_> hobx: eh? the return time is instant
[8:02] <toad_> ah
[8:02] <hobx> no, I say something, and then you usually respond with 15-20 seconds
[8:02] <toad_> sanity: if you care, fetch jrandom from #i2p, and ask him
[8:02] <sanity> toad: nobody is being hostile, i am simply asking a simple question
[8:02] <hobx> compare that to speech, where you might have started talking before I finish
[8:03] <hobx> being a little hostile never killed anybody.
[8:03] <hobx> sanity: I did it btw. I quit my prescribed research.
[8:03] <toad_> heh, depends on "a little"
[8:03] <sanity> hobx: wow! cool
[8:03] <toad_> hobx: does that give you more time to harass students?
[8:03] <hobx> one of the least fun things I have ever done I think.
[8:03] <sanity> hobx: so what now?
[8:03] <hobx> toad_: If I don't end up getting fired.
[8:04] <toad_> hobx: what are you going to be doing now?
[8:04] <hobx> sanity: I said that the only thing I can really imagine doing is communications networks and stuff. From the short talk I had with the boss guy, he seemed to think that as long as I can get some sort of bio spin on it I can keep getting paid.
[8:04] <toad_> sanity: okay, lets get this straight.. what you are saying is that something like i2p has a wider selection of peers for mixnet, but it's very vulnerable to flooding
[8:05] <toad_> sanity: I would argue that freenet is also very vulnerable; the bad guys will just make an ubernode and have it pretend to be lots of ubernodes
[8:05] <toad_> hobx: interesting
[8:07] <toad_> sanity: this brings me back to my old theory that freenet will always be seriously vulnerable as long as we have to have connection flux. Unfortunately the only way to get the right distribution of peers appears to be to have connection flux...
[8:07] <sanity> hobx: how does kademlia find new peers?
[8:07] <sanity> toad: yes, but the connection flux doesn't necessarily have to be fast after initial assimilation
[8:08] <hobx> sanity: Like most of the DHTs, it depends a lot on the ID a node chooses when it joins the network,
[8:08] <toad_> sanity: sure, but if there's any, then a) they can harvest, and b) they can introduce new ubernodes
[8:09] <hobx> there is some leeway, which I think kamdelia says should be used to pick ones one has the best connection to.
[8:10] <sanity> apparently i2p relies on kademlia to find new peers - i wonder if that is safe...
[8:10] <hobx> I can say for sure it isn't.
[8:10] <toad_> hmm, interesting
[8:11] <hobx> You can join anywhere you want, any time you want.
[8:11] <toad_> hobx: so it's easy to exploit?
[8:11] <hobx> I mean, depends on what you want to do.
[8:11] <hobx> But you can place yourself anywhere you want in a kademlia mesh.
[8:12] <hobx> Kademlia is just another version of the randomized hypercube.
[8:12] <sanity> well, if you wanted to arrange to control all or most of the peers a given peer is connected to?
[8:12] * sanity can't seem to find a paper describing it
[8:12] <toad_> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/529075.html
[8:12] <d-ArkAngel> [OT] lol, some of the publicity shots for the new MSDN search have been sent out, but were taken using firefox :-)
[8:12] <hobx> try scholar.google.com
[8:12] <hobx> that thing rules
[8:13] <hobx> I think it is the best thing to happen to academics since the printing press...
[8:13] <sanity> back in 5 minutes
[8:13] <hobx> going back to work... (Why? I quit...)
[8:13] <toad_> okay
[8:15] * sanity_ (~pupok@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[8:15] <toad_> wb sanity_
[8:15] <sanity_> got evicted from my office by the cleaner
[8:15] <toad_> :|
[8:15] <sanity_> won't take long
[8:16] <sanity_> did anyone respond in #i2p?
[8:16] <toad_> so does it matter, being able to insert yourself anywhere on the mesh? it would seem to
[8:16] <toad_> matter a lot for a content storage DHT
[8:16] <toad_> such as the hypothetical one to be built on top of i2p
[8:16] <toad_> but perhaps not for i2p itself, which is just for mixnetting?
[8:17] <toad_> I mean, they use the DHT to select peers by routing to a random key, right?
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[8:19] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-232-027.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[8:20] <sanity_> toad: its not just that, if they rely on it for peer acquisiton it could compromise everything the network does
[8:20] <toad_> sanity_: how so?
[8:22] <sanity_> toad: if you can control every peer an i2p peer has access to, they have no anonymity
[8:22] <sanity_> even if you only control a significant number of them
[8:22] <toad_> sanity_: I think they assume global connectivity
[8:22] <sanity_> toad: how is that relevant?
[8:24] <toad_> sanity_: umm, every i2p peer is constantly talking to almost every other i2p peer, as it makes new tunnels?
[8:25] <sanity_> thats not very scalable
[8:25] <toad_> they use UDP
[8:25] <toad_> and i think they reuse tunnels for quite a while
[8:31] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[8:40] <toad_> sanity_: okay, we can seriously limit node churn without having ANY impact on connection churn; thanks for getting me to go to #i2p !
[8:40] <toad_> sanity_: just have a hashcash challenge keyed to the node identity
[8:42] <sanity> indeed, because Freenet doesn't use enough CPU already
[8:42] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[8:42] <spaetz> hehe
[8:42] <toad_> well you only need to do it once per node
[8:42] <toad_> that's the point
[8:42] <toad_> and verification is trivial
[8:42] <d-ArkAngel> well the more CPU it uses, the harder it would be for someone to run a million nodes and take over the network I suppose :-)
[8:42] <sanity> hashcash is a waste of time, anything that is practical for users to do will be equally practical for an attacker to do on a large scale
[8:43] <toad_> and by the time we need to worry about such things, people won't mind running a hashcash puzzle for 24 hours or so before getting onto the network
[8:43] <sanity> toad: are you being serious?
[8:43] * sanity_ (~pupok@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[8:44] <sanity> toad: are you doing a MITM attack between me and jrandom? :-)
[8:46] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) has joined #freenet
[8:46] <toad_> :)
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[9:07] * |UK-Monster| is now known as leexgx
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[9:34] <sdogi> toad_: you here?
[9:35] <toad_> hi
[9:35] <sdogi> hi
[9:36] <sdogi> someone told me that you once searched for a program that monitors bandwitdh usage in network
[9:36] <sdogi> per ip
[9:36] <sdogi> did you find it?
[9:36] <toad_> don't know
[9:37] <sdogi> you found something?
[9:37] <toad_> don't think so
[9:38] <sdogi> damn
[9:38] <sdogi> me either
[9:39] <plixed> traffic accounting per ip? netfilter/iptables can do this natively
[9:41] <sdogi> lots of iptables based software i have found doesn't work :(
[9:43] <plixed> i use ipac-ng for accounting which uses an iptables counter per ip that is polled every 5 min
[9:44] <sdogi> ipac-ng... i tried that, i guess i should try it again, it gave me segementation faults?!
[9:46] * leexgx is now known as leeway00-out
[9:46] <plixed> ipac-ng sucks big time, i still use a very old version, but the principle works
[9:46] * leeway00-out is now known as leeway
[9:47] * leeway is now known as leexgx-out
[9:47] <plixed> you can also do what ipac-ng does in a short perl script without the bells and whistels
[9:48] <plixed> just setup the iptable rule with the counter and poll this rule from a cron script, store the value in a db, that's all
[9:48] <plixed> for a more robust implementation than ipac-ng have a look into cisco flow, there a some free implementations
[9:50] <plixed> cflowd for example
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[10:06] <toad_> okay, that was useful.. i think... a post about it will come up on tech in a moment
[10:07] <toad_> (about premix routing, that is, and how to do it on freeneT)
[10:08] <toad_> bbiab
[10:13] * spamhog (~spamhog@62-101-126-208.fastres.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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[11:17] <d-ArkAngel> toad_ : http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/app0411.html
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> nice statement from the makers of linux, mysql and PHP
[11:22] * Usurp (~Usurp@trudaine-8-82-230-34-86.fbx.proxad.net) has left #freenet
[11:24] <KenMan> hey, did we decide anonymous-nets are impossible yet ?
[11:54] <toad_> no
[11:54] <toad_> bbl
[11:55] <toad_> KenMan: we decided that premix routing on freenet may be easier than it seemed
[11:55] <toad_> although still not easy :)
[11:55] <toad_> see my post on tech
[11:56] <toad_> KenMan: also when our balance reaches $3K, I'm going to try to get ian to try you out for $1K, if you're still interested; he's fairly conservative about it though, so maybe $4K
[11:58] <toad_> you see, we have nearly $2400 in the account, and there's over a month left on my current contract
[11:58] <toad_> or did you find a nice well paying local job already?
[11:59] <toad_> bbl
[12:01] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-232-027.arcor-ip.net) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[12:12] * d-ArkAngel (~Robert@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) has left #freenet
[12:38] * nextgens (~nextgens@d213-103-214-128.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[12:38] <nextgens> hi
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[13:54] <sanity> i don't fscking believe it, some nimrod submitted Dijjer to Slashdot, and what is worse, some other nimrod posted it!
[13:55] <greycat> You don't *actually* think the slashdot editors read the linked-to page, do you?
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[14:04] <KenMan> i've not found a nice paying local job yet - rather, doing tech support ("ooh please, fix my winnndows!") :(
[14:05] <KenMan> i think we should examine the estimators a little closer... i'm busy running down the wrong rabbit hole, making a C++ simulator.
[14:05] <d-ArkAngel> anyone tried solaris 10 yet?
[14:05] <KenMan> i thought about it...
[14:05] <KenMan> how is the driver support ?
[14:06] <d-ArkAngel> just wondering if the improved tcp/ip performance would be any benefit to freenet (and the fact that it's Sun's baby :-) )
[14:06] <KenMan> I would guess it would only be so-so. Matrox and ATI video cards here, don't care about sound...
[14:06] <linagee> "we love playing with our twangers." ROFL
[14:06] <d-ArkAngel> from what I've seen it's pretty basic, but no more so than linux I don't think
[14:06] * nextgens (~nextgens@d213-103-214-128.cust.tele2.fr) Quit ("leaving")
[14:06] <d-ArkAngel> I suspect that it'll work with ATI in 2D fairly well
[14:06] <KenMan> well, we wouldn't expect too many solaris freenet users in the end, percentage-wise. It could be a nice development platform, but likely not much difference from linux...
[14:07] <d-ArkAngel> after all the rage adaptors are pretty standard in terms of server hardware.
[14:07] <KenMan> true. One of those many things that would be nice to play with, if I get the time...
[14:07] <d-ArkAngel> linagee: lol, the old ones are always the best. Personaly I like the banana peeling comments more ;-)
[14:08] <linagee> this is hilarous, found it on frost. (this is the "we love playing with our twangers) (probably not work safe) CHK@ufSb0Ew2k45RvIPwFj~7T~R3Is0LAwI,kmExXsv7ZPPphbxrnDQ95A/rainbow.swf
[14:08] <d-ArkAngel> I'm half thinking about throwing something to see.
[14:11] <d-ArkAngel> I'd put it on my laptop, but absolutly nothing other than windows supports these crap centrino wifi adaptors.
[14:13] <linagee> weird. with frost, you start seeing more newer, AND more older messages. as your node gets more well known, you can go into the past more, and new things are posted.
[14:14] <d-ArkAngel> surely that's to be expected? as you get more aware on the network then you learn more about how to route requests to more of the network, so more of freenet becomes visable to you
[14:14] <toad_> lol @ sanity
[14:14] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: Knock knock d-ArkAngel. The Freenet has you. :)
[14:15] <toad_> KenMan: okay, so if we offered you $1K for 70 hours work over 2-4 weeks, you'd take it?
[14:15] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: your node cannot be shown other nodes without breaching anonimity, you have to see the nodes for yourself. :)
[14:16] <toad_> LOL
[14:16] <linagee> </matrix>
[14:16] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[14:16] <toad_> what is the freenet?
[14:16] <toad_> it's the question that drives us mad...
[14:16] <linagee> toad_: follow the blue rabitt. :)
[14:16] <toad_> linagee: or black
[14:16] <toad_> or white
[14:16] <d-ArkAngel> is't it red?
[14:16] <toad_> depending on who you ask
[14:16] <toad_> the best one is black
[14:17] <linagee> my rabbit is blue?
[14:17] <toad_> well sort of
[14:17] <linagee> what does that mean?
[14:17] <toad_> black and white :)
[14:17] <toad_> hmm sanity isn't ehre?
[14:17] <toad_> bbiab
[14:17] <d-ArkAngel> linagee, you should see a doctor about that
[14:17] <linagee> toad_: oh, hahaha. black and white rabbit? fuqid?
[14:18] * plixed (~plixed@i3ED621F5.versanet.de) has joined #freenet
[14:18] <linagee> i thought about that. someone can give you their refkeys, but how do you know it's not the govt, giving you a seperated island of freenet nodes that are all hungry to spy on you?
[14:19] <d-ArkAngel> you don't
[14:19] <d-ArkAngel> how do you know that they're not already linked to your computer and the whole thing is just an elaborate scam, and it's them that contol everything.
[14:19] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: and the "default refkeys"? how can you trust them? just that the network is big, and it seems i use the same network you do?
[14:19] <d-ArkAngel> you can never be sure, just unreasonably paranoid
[14:19] <Ribs> How do you know we aren't in the Matrix?
[14:20] * linagee eats ribs
[14:20] <toad_> Ribs: I could give you an answer but you wouldn't like it :)
[14:20] <linagee> the matrix tells me ribs is good food. :)
[14:20] <Ribs> precisely
[14:20] <Ribs> toad_: The red pill?
[14:22] * linagee wants to upgrade his DSL, but they offer static and dynamic. HRM.... :-/
[14:22] <linagee> static = i can start hosting stuff off my more bandwidth, dynamic = freenet will work better...
[14:22] <d-ArkAngel> what's the actual difference?
[14:22] <d-ArkAngel> why would freenet work better on dynamic?
[14:23] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: on DSL with dynamic, every reauthentication of PPPoE, you get a new IP. real annoying.
[14:23] <Ribs> yeah, surley it would work worse?
[14:23] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: better = more anonymous?
[14:23] <linagee> Ribs: i'm using dyndns. :)
[14:23] <d-ArkAngel> and you keep using the same dns entry, it's hardly more anonymous is it ;-)
[14:23] <Ribs> lol
[14:23] <linagee> i wish they would give me some dynamic, some static. hahaha
[14:24] <d-ArkAngel> it you get more than one static it's quite usefull, it you only get one of each, then it's not such a problem really.
[14:24] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i see your point. "they" could always find me just by resolving my DNS entry.
[14:24] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: so i should get static so maybe i can host some stuff and recoup a small amount of expenses. :)
[14:25] <d-ArkAngel> why would you need static?
[14:25] <d-ArkAngel> if you've got dyndns then it's just the same
[14:25] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: hosting
[14:25] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: if i want to host some web content
[14:25] <linagee> port 80 stuff, not freenet. ;)
[14:25] <d-ArkAngel> I host web content on a dynamic connection
[14:25] <d-ArkAngel> no problems
[14:26] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: not personal though, no dyndns
[14:26] <linagee> my business website and such
[14:26] <linagee> maybe email
[14:26] <linagee> or can dyndns handle that too... hrm..... :-/
[14:26] * d-ArkAngel hosts a development forum, and e-mail servers via it.
[14:26] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: through dyndns?
[14:26] <toad_> okay, sent the fax
[14:26] <plixed> linagee: for serious webhosting you may need a subnet
[14:26] <toad_> lets see if it works...
[14:27] <d-ArkAngel> yes
[14:27] <linagee> plixed: they can give me like 5 static IPs.
[14:27] <toad_> for all my luck the gateway'll probably reject the format
[14:27] <linagee> plixed: or rather, that's the service plan
[14:27] <linagee> plixed: 6mbps, 5 static ips
[14:27] <plixed> linagee: if you want to run your own dns you may even need two separate subnets for some registrars
[14:28] <linagee> plixed: i don't plan to run my own dns because i knew what you just said, i just plan to host http so i don't have to keep paying people. ;)
[14:28] <d-ArkAngel> lucky bastard. try living here in the UK. we've got a 2Mb line that costs us ??16,000 a year. :-/
[14:28] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: heheh
[14:28] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: we do too. :) DS3 and such
[14:29] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: it's just that my DSL provider explicitly says that hosting is ok. (most don't)
[14:29] <d-ArkAngel> admitedly that's with a hot standby line to a different datasenter, and a 99.9995% uptime SLA
[14:29] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: yes yes. all that is nice and cozy i'm sure. :)
[14:29] <d-ArkAngel> if only it was a more reasonable speed/price
[14:29] <linagee> sleep better at night and the whole bit. :)
[14:30] <d-ArkAngel> kinda a must, we have periods of usage that would cost us serious money if it fails.
[14:31] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i just yell at my 24/7 isp hotline. :) and i probably won't get more than a couple hundred users a day. :)
[14:31] <linagee> (if even that. heh)
[14:31] <d-ArkAngel> 1.5Mbit is the best you can get as a normal consumer over here.
[14:31] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: that's what i've got right now
[14:31] <d-ArkAngel> well outside london (bastards)
[14:31] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: $21.95/mo for new subscribers, they have me on their $26.95/mo plan because i'm not new
[14:32] <linagee> (for 1.5mbit)
[14:32] <d-ArkAngel> 1.5Mbit would be ??39.95 (~$70) a month
[14:32] <d-ArkAngel> here
[14:33] <plixed> in germany you can get 3mbit/384kbit for euro 60 ;)
[14:33] <d-ArkAngel> tho they claim they're going to increase the bandiwdths early next year (not sure I beleive them 100% tho)
[14:33] <linagee> plixed: USD = ?
[14:33] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i want my VDSL! :)
[14:33] <KenMan> toad - for 60 hours over a month for $1K, yeah. But, for the sake of the project, it doesn't make sense right now. Besides, I'm already spending lots of time on it... without much to show just yet.
[14:33] <plixed> linagee: factor 1.3 if i am right ;)
[14:34] <d-ArkAngel> I happen to know where there's an backbone node not too far away. I think what I need is a long cable and some breaking and entering ;-)
[14:34] * linagee will be trying to convince his isp to let him get 6mbps/608k @ $49.95/mo :)
[14:35] <linagee> (it's a new deal they just made for "new subscribers", not sure)
[14:35] <d-ArkAngel> you'd be a new subscriber to that service ;-)
[14:36] <linagee> that's my argument. :)
[14:36] <linagee> i could always cancel my contract and re-make it, but they have a cancellation fee, you're locked in for 1 yr. hah
[14:40] <d-ArkAngel> if not try something like this type of approach with the person on the phone....
[14:40] <d-ArkAngel> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/10/09/bofh_makes_a_hardware_call/
[14:48] <toad_> hi
[14:49] <toad_> linagee: woah
[14:49] <toad_> the best i can get is 3 (or is it 4?) with 382kbps for... not sure, a lot
[14:50] <linagee> toad_: i live near the CO. :)
[14:50] <toad_> co?
[14:50] <toad_> the exchange?
[14:50] <linagee> central office?
[14:50] <linagee> yes
[14:50] <toad_> ah
[14:50] <linagee> same thing
[14:50] <plixed> central services? ;)
[14:51] <toad_> i'm on the local cable... it'd be quite troublesome to switch to DSL, because I'd need to go to the telephone monopoly
[14:51] <toad_> and then i can choose between lots of DSL's
[14:51] <linagee> toad_: hehehe. exactly.
[14:51] <linagee> toad_: actually, no. :)
[14:51] <toad_> whereas on cable, I have only one option, but it's cheap, fast, and they're not that incompetent
[14:51] <toad_> but the up is only 256
[14:52] <toad_> and the down will be 2048 soon
[14:52] <linagee> toad_: the ISP basically rents out DSL lines from the CO company,
[14:52] <linagee> toad_: so that's why DSL prices are usually around the same. :)
[14:52] <toad_> nod, local loop unbundling
[14:52] <linagee> toad_: the CO has fiber to the ISP, the ISP is your route to the internet
[14:52] <toad_> but they have to provide their own network
[14:52] <toad_> to the inet
[14:52] <linagee> yes
[14:52] <toad_> yeah
[14:53] <linagee> toad_: or you can usually pay the CO company for internet too. ex: SBC has internet. although they call it "yahoo internet" lol
[14:53] <linagee> i could have payed SBC for my internet, but then it's more bucks in their pocket. :)
[14:54] <linagee> and also, my third party DSL has more features / IPs / 24/7 tech support. :)
[14:54] <toad_> yeah, BT dsl isn't especially good iirc
[14:55] <toad_> yeah, there's a techie DSL I could get if I switched, but since cable started allowing servers there's no incentive, unless I want multiple IPs; and the techie DSL is significantly more expensive
[14:56] <linagee> toad_: what really sucks though, is that paying your CO directly *probably* results in a faster setup
[14:56] <toad_> :|
[14:56] <toad_> it doesn't have to, they'll have a big network, that doesn't necessarily mean a fast one
[14:56] <toad_> they're usually a backbone provider of course
[14:56] <linagee> toad_: afaik, SBC has an automated system to turn on your DSL line so you can get sync, but they have to string up cables or configure routers or something to get you internet. first step is around a day, second step can be a week or more.
[14:57] * jay (~jcl@198.38.10.200) has joined #freenet
[14:57] <toad_> bbiab
[15:04] * sdogi_ (~java@84-50-18-206-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) has joined #freenet
[15:05] * Hirvox (~hirvox@cs181027153.pp.htv.fi) has joined #freenet
[15:05] * sdogi_ (~java@84-50-18-206-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[15:08] <KenMan> so, to briefly review, we suspect that perfect anonymity is impossible. However, we sense that we can build a system with reasonable security and usability.
[15:09] <KenMan> We don't recommend that a spy uses FreeNet, as it isn't likely to withstand the full resources of an opposing spy agency (at the nation-state level).
[15:09] <KenMan> For more mundane uses, it should be 'good enough'
[15:09] * sdogi_ (~java@84-50-19-162-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) has joined #freenet
[15:10] <KenMan> Now, if we had a system that was quite usable, and many people began using it, we might begin to see the lawsuits happen.
[15:11] <KenMan> That would be a sign of 'success' for the project ?
[15:11] <KenMan> We've talked about the 'common carrier'/ISP approach, but it has not been tested.
[15:11] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[15:14] <plixed> KenMan: it would be the success and maybe the end of it. i doubt ian & toad can stand a full throttle media attack from the tabloid media accusing them to help spread illegal content
[15:15] <KenMan> It feels like FreeNet is destined to become the next big file-sharing tool, if we boost the success rates and usability (responsiveness).
[15:16] * sdogi (~java@84-50-18-92-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:16] <sdogi_> anyone knows a good c++ development environment?
[15:16] <KenMan> Well, hate to say it, but if the international world should agree that what we are attempting to build should not be built, then that is that.
[15:16] <KenMan> sdogi_: what platform ?
[15:16] <sdogi_> linux
[15:16] <sdogi_> st i need something like dev-c++
[15:16] <KenMan> eclipse is a free option, there are several - if you seek an IDE
[15:16] <plixed> sdogi_: kdevelop is one option
[15:17] <sdogi_> though dev-c++ has so many problems with binary and source package that i gave up
[15:17] <sdogi_> plixed: yeah, thats whay i'm using.. thought i'm looking something that i can use also with my 486
[15:17] <plixed> sdogi_: emacs
[15:18] <sdogi_> emacs... hmm
[15:18] <KenMan> yeah for emacs !! it can do a lot . integrated compile and debug cycle...
[15:18] <sdogi_> actually i should really learn emacs
[15:18] <sdogi_> i'll try it out
[15:18] <sdogi_> thanks
[15:18] <KenMan> good luck. Lots of resources out there for learning!
[15:20] <KenMan> i think XEmacs used to enhance gdb's use inside emacs with mouse features (click on variable to evaluate, things like that), can't remember just now
[15:20] * ShaunMacPherson (~ShaunMac@Sudbury-HSE-ppp3976672.sympatico.ca) has joined #Freenet
[15:21] <KenMan> okay, now i remember. XEmacs had a GDB toolbar, with step, trace, breakpoint etc as tool icons.
[15:22] <sdogi_> new freenet node out?
[15:22] <KenMan> 5100 is latest, in last few days
[15:23] <KenMan> i think the only change is removal of failure table
[15:23] <plixed> small bugfix release, nothing too important
[15:23] <sdogi_> someone should update sourceforge's webpage
[15:23] <plixed> it was still there? ;)
[15:23] <sdogi_> there is 5099 as final, i was just checking some hours ago
[15:23] <sdogi_> didn't look topic here
[15:24] <plixed> sf.net was extremly slow the last days
[15:24] <sdogi_> not here :)
[15:25] <sdogi_> though freenetproject.com seems slow right now
[15:25] <plixed> it was until a few hours ago then, ~3 kbyte for all from everywhere
[15:25] <sdogi_> oh, s/com/org/
[15:25] <KenMan> I fail to see how toad & ian could be brought to bear for users' actions. The project's intention is not to spread material illegally...
[15:25] <plixed> ok, not sf.net the mainpages, but the project webpages like freenetproject.org & so
[15:25] <sdogi_> yeah i'm getting 3 kbytes from freenetproject.org right now
[15:25] <sdogi_> yeah
[15:25] <sdogi_> still is
[15:26] <sdogi_> have to wait 25 minutes
[15:27] <KenMan> I do see how FreeNet could attract a lot of attention, examining the project goals. That is not necessarily a bad thing... maybe the world would agree that such technology does have a right to exist.
[15:27] <toad_> <KenMan> I fail to see how toad & ian could be brought to bear for users' actions. The project's intention is not to spread material illegally...
[15:27] <toad_> is it?
[15:28] <KenMan> is what, what ?
[15:28] <sdogi_> aren't toad and ian one person?
[15:28] <toad_> ask a typical freenet user about the noninfringing uses, what will they say? they'll give you a list of interesting but technically illegal or at least borderline content
[15:28] <KenMan> sometimes, but very rarely are they of one mind
[15:28] <toad_> e.g. anything that criticises $cientology, the diebold files, whatever
[15:28] <toad_> sdogi_: no, ian == sanity, toad_ == matthew T
[15:28] <sdogi_> oh
[15:29] <KenMan> i'm not debating FN's right to exist, but someone somewhere eventually will !
[15:29] <toad_> I am alleged to be an artificial intelligence, an amphibian, and a number of other things
[15:29] <toad_> however my appearing in person at notcon tends to dispute that
[15:29] <toad_> :)
[15:29] * Ash-Fox (HAL-9000@aad186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[15:31] <sdogi_> damn, i hate broken packages, i have tried to install devcpp, amf, File::Scan, none of them worked
[15:31] <sdogi_> at least freenet works :)
[15:31] <sdogi_> btw what were the bugfixes in 5100?
[15:32] <greycat> oh, a new build is out.
[15:34] <KenMan> running roughshod all over the free net , indeed
[15:34] <KenMan> sorry, i kid with odd/poor humor
[15:54] * Ribs (~freenode@riblet.plus.com) Quit (Read error: 242 (No route to host))
[15:54] * Ribs (~freenode@riblet.plus.com) has joined #freenet
[15:58] <sdogi_> freenet.conf still doesn't exist in package, i guess when i'm behind the firewall i have to download it
[15:58] <greycat> freenet.conf is generated the first time you run it
[16:00] <sdogi_> oh
[16:00] <sdogi_> i see :)
[16:02] * greycat wonders whether the RNFs will ever stop...
[16:06] <sdogi_> lol, running freenet on 486 isn't very good idea when you have 64 ram
[16:07] <greycat> either of those two would disqualify it for me, but both together...? Wow.
[16:07] <sdogi_> just testing
[16:07] <sdogi_> it's writing everything to swap partition
[16:08] <sdogi_> oh and cpu usage is 80 %
[16:12] <sdogi_> btw, does freenet even run behind the firewall without forwarded ports?
[16:12] <toad_> yes
[16:12] <toad_> but not well
[16:12] <toad_> well eventually it might, but you'll have big problems bootstrapping enough connections
[16:13] <sdogi_> if cpu usage drops belove 40 % i may actually consider running it on my 486, at least it has 800 kb/s down and 150 kb/s up internet connection :)
[16:14] <greycat> if you can afford the monthly charges on that internet connection, surely you could afford a pentium from a trash heap?
[16:14] <sdogi_> i know that tcp is bidirectional, so i guess that this is how it works, also does freenet use that udp trick, the one that skype uses?
[16:14] <sdogi_> greycat: belive me, for this connection, i almost pay nothing
[16:15] <sdogi_> greycat: actually i have a pretty fine laptop and 2 other servers, but these are elsewhere
[16:15] <sdogi_> one of them is running also freenet
[16:16] <toad_> linagee: here? did you have issues with bandwidth usage?
[16:16] <sdogi_> hm, my swap partition is getting full
[16:17] <linagee> toad_: ?
[16:19] <toad_> <KenMan> PS - I'm rebuilding the simulator in C++. I don't expect it to be much faster, I just needed an excuse to play with STL.
[16:19] <toad_> <KenMan> implementing the estimators (SBKE) will be a bitch! But maybe it will turn up something useful, as I slog through the existing code.
[16:19] <toad_> quite possible
[16:20] <toad_> also we should try to make it work on gcj
[16:20] <toad_> linagee: hi
[16:20] <linagee> toad_: hi
[16:20] <toad_> linagee: did you have issues with downstream bandwidth being too high a while ago?
[16:20] <linagee> toad_: yes
[16:21] * pupok (~r00t@cs70112248-25.austin.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[16:21] <toad_> <linagee> KenMan: what, was it illegally compiled or something? why would it not be in the public internet? :( [ talking about fuqid ] - bandwidth problems? :) sf.net does us a great service by hosting everything; lots of other mostly-non-commercial fields have deep problems with bandwidth
[16:22] <linagee> toad_: i think the problem was more of, i was downloading files from the public internet, and freenet was sucking my bandwidth. :)
[16:22] <toad_> <akhfsk> will it kill your processor the way bittorrent though... - EH? freenet uses a lot more cpu than bt, surely?
[16:22] <greycat> I'd expect so
[16:22] <toad_> linagee: freenet was sucking your bandwidth? your downstream bandwidth?!
[16:22] <linagee> toad_: then use freenet to distribute .torrent's :)
[16:22] <Ribs> Depends what Freenet is doing
[16:22] <linagee> toad_: yes. both.
[16:22] <Ribs> and what bt is doing ;)
[16:23] <toad_> <kevloral> toad_: I do say that frost doesn't have a backdoor. :-) -- how do you know?
[16:23] <linagee> toad_: i probably want priority ACK packets, but right now i'm using an SMC firewall and not linux, so i'll have to set that up.
[16:23] <hobx> Ian got a slashdot frontpage story, but he is out getting drunk...
[16:24] <toad_> <KenMan> i've not found a nice paying local job yet - rather, doing tech support ("ooh please, fix my winnndows!") :( --- commercially? i mean for a megacorp, or for yourself? i tried to do that for myself and got nowhere...
[16:24] <toad_> years ago
[16:24] <greycat> hobx: s/but/and/
[16:25] <sdogi_> well, so much about testing freenet on 486... it is possible to turn 486 to freenet node... there should be lot of ram or big swap partition though
[16:25] <sdogi_> it wanted about 14 % cpu
[16:25] <greycat> that will depend on what sort of traffic you're getting
[16:26] <toad_> <linagee> this is hilarous, found it on frost. (this is the "we love playing with our twangers) (probably not work safe) CHK@ufSb0Ew2k45RvIPwFj~7T~R3Is0LAwI,kmExXsv7ZPPphbxrnDQ95A/rainbow.swf --- what on earth is that?
[16:28] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> lucky bastard. try living here in the UK. we've got a 2Mb line that costs us ??16,000 a year. :-/ - yuck. you do know linagee's uplink is only 384? :)
[16:28] * jay (~jcl@198.38.10.200) Quit ()
[16:29] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> admitedly that's with a hot standby line to a different datasenter, and a 99.9995% uptime SLA --- umm, this is for blizzardhackers??
[16:29] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> 1.5Mbit is the best you can get as a normal consumer over here. ---- DOWNLINK. not uplink. :<
[16:29] <d-ArkAngel> no, that's for my day job (just been sorting out connectivity, still not qutite how I want it :-)
[16:30] <d-ArkAngel> indeed, SDSL is harder to come by
[16:30] <d-ArkAngel> you'd be looking at a few hundered ?? a month for SDSL
[16:30] <toad_> <KenMan> toad - for 60 hours over a month for $1K, yeah. But, for the sake of the project, it doesn't make sense right now. Besides, I'm already spending lots of time on it... without much to show just yet. --- it doesn't make sense because we don't really have the money yet, but we may soon
[16:30] * Ash-Fox (HAL-9000@aad186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:31] <toad_> <KenMan> so, to briefly review, we suspect that perfect anonymity is impossible. However, we sense that we can build a system with reasonable security and usability.
[16:31] <toad_> <KenMan> We don't recommend that a spy uses FreeNet, as it isn't likely to withstand the full resources of an opposing spy agency (at the nation-state level).
[16:31] <toad_> <KenMan> For more mundane uses, it should be 'good enough'
[16:31] <toad_> MAYBE
[16:31] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[16:31] <toad_> I'd like freenet to be usable for some fairly serious things e.g. china
[16:32] <toad_> <KenMan> Now, if we had a system that was quite usable, and many people began using it, we might begin to see the lawsuits happen.
[16:32] <toad_> <KenMan> That would be a sign of 'success' for the project ?
[16:32] <toad_> :)
[16:32] <linagee> toad_: were you able to get rainbow.swf? lol
[16:32] <sdogi_> it would be nice to download bin ladens greatest hits from freenet some day
[16:32] <toad_> <KenMan> It feels like FreeNet is destined to become the next big file-sharing tool, if we boost the success rates and usability (responsiveness).
[16:32] <toad_> possibly, probably with an extra wrapper on it
[16:33] <toad_> e.g. frost
[16:33] <sdogi_> or any thing goverments are trying to hide away
[16:33] <linagee> toad_: <d-ArkAngel> lucky bastard. try living here in the UK. we've got a 2Mb line that costs us ??16,000 a year. :-/ - yuck. you do know linagee's uplink is only 384? :) <-=---- how did you know
[16:33] <d-ArkAngel> bloody internet banking and it's ??10,000 a day transfer limit.
[16:33] <toad_> <KenMan> Well, hate to say it, but if the international world should agree that what we are attempting to build should not be built, then that is that.
[16:33] <toad_> i think once we work out the fundamentals we can do the rest pretty fast
[16:34] <toad_> <plixed> small bugfix release, nothing too important -- not true, removal of failure table could be important
[16:35] <linagee> toad_: what if you live in a terrorist country and they kill you and go, "oh, whoops. we saw intelligence documents pass through your IP and unencrypted them. we naturally thought it was you and now you're dead" LOL
[16:36] <toad_> sdogi_: woah, you're insane. we've had users on pentiums though...
[16:36] <d-ArkAngel> linagee: then you're dead and have no need to worry about such trivial things as anonymity.
[16:36] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: lol
[16:36] <toad_> <sdogi_> i know that tcp is bidirectional, so i guess that this is how it works, also does freenet use that udp trick, the one that skype uses? - no, not yet
[16:37] <toad_> linagee: okay, freenet was sucking your upstream, because it was set too high, and this caused your downstream to suck because the ACKs couldn't get through, right?
[16:37] <linagee> toad_: probably. *shrug*
[16:38] <toad_> <linagee> toad_: then use freenet to distribute .torrent's :) -- why bother? freenet can do big files reasonably well by itself
[16:38] <linagee> toad_: really? not for me. :)
[16:38] <linagee> toad_: i'm probably just not well intergrated enough yet. hah
[16:39] <linagee> my FIND is not dolphin link on main freenet page still does not come up. :-/
[16:39] <toad_> <linagee> toad_: were you able to get rainbow.swf? lol -- what is it??
[16:39] <linagee> toad_: download it and see! :)
[16:39] <toad_> <sdogi_> it would be nice to download bin ladens greatest hits from freenet some day -- actually most of them are on the inet...
[16:39] <linagee> toad_: not work safe, non pornographic, just funny. :)
[16:39] <toad_> <sdogi_> or any thing goverments are trying to hide away -- you can do some of that now - well, corps at least - diebold, scientology, probably others
[16:40] <linagee> toad_: how about things THEY just don't want you to know because of big corporate interest? i'd like to see more of that. :)
[16:40] <toad_> linagee: :)
[16:40] <toad_> lol d-ArkAngel
[16:40] <linagee> toad_: ie. employees snitching on the companies they work for, people doing things companies would not like, ie, engine that runs on water? :)
[16:40] <sdogi_> why isn't frost good for inserting big files?
[16:41] <toad_> linagee: is it legal?
[16:41] <toad_> rainbow.swf i mean?
[16:41] <linagee> toad_: the swf? sure. non beastiality. lol
[16:41] <linagee> toad_: it's just a bunch of people on a goofy show saying goofy things. lol.
[16:41] <toad_> linagee: there was something on intel a while ago
[16:41] <linagee> toad_: like environmentally dangerous stuff? :)
[16:41] <toad_> there was also something on somebody else using OSS illegally on Frost...
[16:42] <toad_> an actual whistleblower, or so it seems, albeit on something minor
[16:42] <linagee> toad_: aha. you mean a company illegally using free software?? grr. :)
[16:42] <toad_> linagee: no, how they treat their employees (intel)
[16:42] <linagee> toad_: what page can i find these whistleblowing activities? :)
[16:42] <toad_> mirror of a web site i think though
[16:42] <linagee> toad_: fun, maybe i'll go work for them. hahah
[16:42] <toad_> linagee: i don't think the intel site is up now
[16:42] <d-ArkAngel> rainbow.swf was a spoof episode of the TV show rainbow done for a christmas party competition
[16:42] <toad_> and the frost post was well, in frost :)
[16:43] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i did not see the posting it was from
[16:43] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: it's legal to distribute
[16:43] <toad_> ?
[16:43] <linagee> toad_: sure, but not work safe. :)
[16:43] <d-ArkAngel> yes, since it was never made for TV
[16:43] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: doesn't necessarily follow, a lot of amateurs are assholes
[16:44] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i'd wonder how / why they made that rainbow.swf? was it made for madtv or something? hah
[16:44] <d-ArkAngel> at ITV all the regions had christmas competition to make a good bloopers reel. but rather than make a reel, they just made this spoof episode of rainbow instead (using the original cast)
[16:44] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: oic. so that's where it was born from. hah
[16:45] <toad_> hmmm
[16:46] <toad_> we have a vesa salento AND a vesa denisov.. how confusing.. but what a big community..
[16:46] <d-ArkAngel> from what I understand it's not illegal, it's quite well distributed on the web, along with many urban ledgens that it was orriginaly broadcast
[16:46] <linagee> lol
[16:46] <d-ArkAngel> which it turns out are not true, in an interview with one of the people in it.
[16:47] <d-ArkAngel> which is where the story about it being a internal staff game/competition
[16:47] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) has left #freenet
[16:47] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: i was suprised they were able to do a show like that with such seriousness. LOL. or maybe it's just the quality wasn't good enough for me to see
[16:48] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: one skin, two skin, three skin, f... LOL
[16:48] <d-ArkAngel> they were damn good. there's a better quality AVI out there on the web, google should make it easier for you to find.
[16:49] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: "yesterday we played with our balls" LOL
[16:49] * Usurp (~Usurp@trudaine-8-82-230-34-86.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #freenet
[16:50] * toad_ suggests somebody inserts it, if you are sure that it's free. And I mean INSERTS INTO FREENET.
[16:50] <toad_> Connection to www.scabserver.com closed by remote host.
[16:50] <toad_> rsync: connection unexpectedly closed (0 bytes received so far) [receiver]
[16:50] <toad_> rsync error: error in rsync protocol data stream (code 12) at io.c(359)
[16:50] <toad_> ssh: erica--: Name or service not known
[16:50] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: ?
[16:51] <toad_> not the last line, the first 3
[16:51] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[16:51] <toad_> hi spaetz
[16:51] <d-ArkAngel> not sure.
[16:51] <spaetz> hi toad
[16:51] <d-ArkAngel> I'm using that server now...
[16:52] <toad_> i've resuscitated page 1 and 2 of Walls Get Bombed
[16:52] <toad_> i have most of page 3
[16:52] <linagee> d-ArkAngel: weirdness. another rainbow.swf, but it's a different movie. http://www.quigmans.com/rainbow.swf
[16:52] <toad_> it is definitely possible to find old files on freenet with some determination...
[16:52] <spaetz> hehe, sanity. I guess don't submit us to high volume sites didn't work out so well
[16:53] <toad_> maybe he forgot about the channel logs?
[16:54] <sdogi_> ok, frost is totally undownloadable from it's sourceforge page
[16:55] <toad_> really?
[16:55] <sdogi_> ahh.. one link worked
[16:55] <sdogi_> yes
[16:55] <sdogi_> most of the links didn't had that file
[16:55] <toad_> |If you just installed Freenet PLEASE increase the size of the datastore!!! The default size of 256MB is way too small, try to make it at least several gigabytes. The more people do this, the better the Freenet/Frost experience will become!
[16:55] <toad_> uhm
[16:55] <sdogi_> only unc.dl.sourceforge.net worked
[16:55] <toad_> have we finally managed to fix this??
[16:58] <spaetz> uhm, still 256MB data store? a bit small isn't it :)
[16:58] <toad_> it should use 10% of available disk space
[16:58] <toad_> there were lots of bugs
[16:59] <toad_> or one bug that was not fixed
[16:59] <toad_> which caused it to miss that
[16:59] <spaetz> toad_: I know, I think I might have written that code in the first place :-)
[16:59] <spaetz> about 3-4 years ago
[17:01] * Ash-Fox (HAL-9000@aad186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[17:02] <toad_> is hostmaster@<domain> a real email address specced by any standards or is it just something this worm has made up?
[17:02] <toad_> any objections to blocking it on each domain that appears to send spam from it?
[17:03] <spaetz> I don't think hostmaster is a standard address no
[17:04] * pupok (~r00t@cs70112248-25.austin.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[17:04] <TheSeeker> just as a note, I have several partitions, ranging in size from 10 gigs to 300 ... should Freenet try to take residence on the largest partition, or the partition with the most free space?
[17:06] <sdogi_> huh, what port does forst use?
[17:06] <sdogi_> 8891?
[17:07] <sdogi_> 8481, found it
[17:08] <linagee> wtf? LOL. http://www.nata2.info/humor/flash/bubblewrap.swf
[17:09] <linagee> toad_: it should be a percentage of your freespace, not a percentage of the drive size. ;)
[17:09] <linagee> toad_: for those of us with drives nearing full. :)
[17:12] <sdogi_> what is so memory hungry in freenet? what needs most ram
[17:14] <toad_> TheSeeker: on windows?
[17:14] <toad_> no idea
[17:14] <toad_> probably just uses the drive you install on
[17:14] <toad_> linagee: what's that?
[17:14] <toad_> linagee: it is
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[17:47] <man-di> toad_: hi
[17:47] <man-di> toad_: time for another very little test ?
[17:51] <sdogi_> when i have linux and i hate installing wine for fuquid, then is there a alternative for it in linux? everybody is saying that fuquid is best for inserting and getting files
[17:52] <sdogi_> i inserted one little mp3 with frost and later i could fetch only 2 blocks from it
[17:52] <sdogi_> later was 30 minutes after
[17:54] <sdogi_> actually, right now i can't insert an mp3 at all
[17:54] <sdogi_> with frost
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[18:47] <toad_> sdogi_: odd
[18:47] <toad_> sdogi_: maybe frost not the best option; does it push it offline?
[18:52] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@195.157.199.85) has joined #freenet
[18:52] <toad_> hi
[18:54] <toad_> Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5099 |=========================================================
[18:54] <toad_> Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.51,5100 |==================================
[18:56] <toad_> 2.4MB in 21 minutes.. makes 2kB/sec...
[18:56] <spaetz> download rate?
[18:56] <toad_> yes
[18:57] <toad_> 30 threads i think...
[18:57] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@195.157.199.85) has left #freenet
[18:58] * toad_ got all of page 3 of WGB
[19:00] * toad_ wonders how the reporting-of-current-events copyright exception is interpreted by the courts in the uk...
[19:01] <toad_> is it legal to download vids to show them (once) to people for purposes of information?
[19:01] <spaetz> what kind of exception is this?
[19:02] <toad_> spaetz: "fair use" is completely different in the UK
[19:02] <spaetz> really? didn't know
[19:02] <toad_> there are various exceptions to copyright, otherwise all unauthorized copying is prohibited
[19:02] <spaetz> Isn't it pretty much universal?
[19:02] <toad_> the broadest ones, for individuals, are for private research, and for reporting the news
[19:03] <spaetz> actually, I don't know how fair use is regulated in Germany. I'm not really into copyright laws, they tend to be bothersome :)
[19:03] <toad_> but i suspect they've been seriously narrowed by the courts...
[19:04] <toad_> in the US I believe you are allowed to tape stuff off the TV to keep indefinitely
[19:04] <toad_> in the UK it's technically illegal but people do it anyway
[19:04] <spaetz> really? nahh, we can do that in Germany legally. For private purposes
[19:04] <toad_> spaetz: it might be arguable that we can do so here for educational/research purposes
[19:05] <toad_> but there has probably been some court ruling at some point narrowing it
[19:05] <toad_> likewise, can we download interesting, but probably copyright, videos from certain freesites, for private research, and to show them to people for purposes of reporting events?
[19:05] <spaetz> we are even allowed to copy rented videos from a "video rent shop"(?)
[19:06] <toad_> spaetz: woah
[19:06] <toad_> why?
[19:06] <toad_> isn't that the "non-profit loophole" ?
[19:06] <toad_> which was recently closed by european legislation?
[19:06] <spaetz> as long as you paid for it, you can copy the rented video (again for private purposes)
[19:07] <toad_> cool; another reason to live in germany, although i've heard the broadband is *****
[19:07] <spaetz> However you are not allowed to circumvent copyright protection measures
[19:07] <toad_> spaetz: that much applies anywhere in the EU
[19:07] <toad_> did you have it before the Directive?
[19:07] <spaetz> naaah, that was introduced recently, I believe
[19:08] <spaetz> broadband depends really on where you live. If you live in a rural area, you have lost, basically
[19:08] <toad_> can anyone get SSK@WxBcPJd1ppZSZ%7eC8IJI-DHx94oIPAgM/wallsgetbombed/1//gal4.html ?
[19:08] <toad_> i can get the first 3, with all images
[19:09] <toad_> just by leaving the browser to autorefresh overnight :)
[19:09] <toad_> with them open
[19:15] <toad_> The project's current Paypal balance is $2,442.95
[19:15] <toad_> cool!
[19:16] <spaetz> yeah, I was just looking today, to see if I need to donate again, and was really surprised
[19:16] <spaetz> Who was that generous?
[19:16] <toad_> somebody gave us $1K
[19:16] <toad_> however, if you want to donate, that'd still be appreciated :)
[19:16] <spaetz> Didn't the list used to be public by default?
[19:17] <toad_> a) it might help to have more than a month's salary in the account, and b) we're thinking of hiring kenman part time
[19:17] <toad_> spaetz: hmm?
[19:17] <toad_> spaetz: what list?
[19:17] <spaetz> toad_: I gave you approx 10% of my last months salary. I'll wait for my christmas bonus before I donate again
[19:17] <toad_> spaetz: woah. thank you very very much. :)
[19:17] <spaetz> In the beginning there was a donation list with names on freenetproject.org
[19:18] <spaetz> IIRC
[19:18] <toad_> there was?
[19:18] <toad_> i don't remember that
[19:18] <toad_> I remember repeated discussions about it
[19:18] <toad_> if people want it we could implement it
[19:18] <toad_> do you want it, for example?
[19:18] <spaetz> toad_: nahh, I guess most prefer to be anonymous
[19:18] <spaetz> nahh, it suffices to brag around in this channel :-)
[19:18] <toad_> I can probably build a script to log into paypal and download the spreads reasonably easily
[19:18] <toad_> hehehehehehe
[19:19] <toad_> freenet does seem to be performing a bit better lately
[19:19] <toad_> for me anyway
[19:20] <toad_> downloading is working fairly well - as i said i could resurrect most of Walls Get Bombed, albeit over a few days...
[19:20] <toad_> and I've got some splitfiles
[19:20] <toad_> and lots of content - IF the alinks come up...
[19:21] <spaetz> sounds good with i2p and gnunet on its heels, freenet could use a bit performance improvement
[19:22] <spaetz> so you quit doing simulations and code again? or do you do that in parallel now?
[19:22] <toad_> :)
[19:22] <toad_> I'm trying to parallelize
[19:22] <toad_> the key is not to run any sims locally, because that messes up the node
[19:22] <toad_> i've had some life-blips lately though, not been doing as much work as i should
[19:23] <toad_> but i don't charge for work i don't do
[19:23] <toad_> so it's only my own problem
[19:23] <toad_> :)
[19:23] <toad_> the main issues are sorted now
[19:23] <spaetz> toad_: same prob here, a bit lac of motivation on my side. Only difference is I still get fully paid :)
[19:24] <spaetz> Glad to hear that
[19:24] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50-kaput.png
[19:24] <toad_> YIKES !
[19:24] <toad_> okay, maybe purple IS settling a bit
[19:24] <spaetz> hehe, I'm on a console now, but kaput.png says it all :-(
[19:25] <toad_> but it'll take another 10M+ reqs to do it if so...
[19:25] <toad_> which means there is still a serious problem somewhere in the simulations :(
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[19:27] <toad> grrrr
[19:27] * toad is now known as toad_
[19:27] <toad_> ksirc crashes if i click a url
[19:27] <toad_> i clicked a url :(
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[19:27] <spaetz> ouch. ksirc? the KDE client?
[19:28] * Usurp_ (~Usurp@trudaine-8-82-230-34-86.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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[19:28] <toad_> what's worse is the ancient X version debian sid ships, which stops me opening new top level windows after a while for some reason; it's not a KDE bug because it says "unable to open display"...
[19:28] <toad_> yeah, one of them
[19:28] <spaetz> toad_: I'm happy I switched to xorg-x11, runs smoothly
[19:29] <toad_> spaetz: distro?
[19:29] <Usurp> is it logical to have java.lang.NoSuchMetodException in freenet log ?
[19:29] * spaetz won't get into another distribution discussion again :-)
[19:29] <toad_> Usurp: not normal
[19:29] <spaetz> gentoo
[19:29] <toad_> :)
[19:29] <toad_> spaetz: just curious :)
[19:30] <Usurp> toad_: I have "java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: freenet.node.states.request.ReceivingInsert.receivedMessage(freenet.node.Node, freenet.message.InsertReply"
[19:31] <toad_> Usurp: hmmm
[19:31] <spaetz> toad_: you missed the mi-di(?) guy, asking to do some tests a couple of hours earlier. Is he a kaffe dev?
[19:31] <toad_> probably harmless but thanks for the report; i'm slowly fixing those
[19:31] <toad_> spaetz: he's the classpath NIO guy
[19:31] <spaetz> ahh, I see.
[19:33] <robilad> spaetz: man-di :)
[19:33] <toad_> you know what classpath is? cool
[19:33] <spaetz> robilad: ahh, I knew I somehow misspelled it :-)
[19:34] * toad_ wonders if he'll have the money to attend the next fosdem.. i suppose i shall probably borrow from parents if needed
[19:34] <toad_> it's quite early next year, that's the problem
[19:34] <spaetz> where is fosdem going to be?
[19:34] <toad_> brussels again i think
[19:34] <spaetz> brussels again?
[19:35] <spaetz> ah. cool, need to look up the date tomorrow
[19:35] <toad_> which is fine by me, but we may have a peasants revolt with pitchforks and torches by the end of it...
[19:35] <toad_> late feb iirc
[19:35] <toad_> http://www.fosdem.org/2005
[19:35] <toad_> |FOSDEM 2005 is yet well on the road; date is now available : it will be held during the last week-end of February.
[19:35] <toad_> This fifth edition will take place at the same location (in the ULB) on the Feb 26 & 27 Feb 2005.
[19:36] <toad_> I suppose they've put up with the EU's eccentricities for years... they won't mind us TOO much, despite complaints last time about us clogging up the public transport :)
[19:37] <spaetz> I've been there like 2 years ago. I liked it alot. First time I got to see RMS and all that. First time I drank cherry flavoured beer
[19:37] * toad_ mumbles something about a terrorist target for TPTB :)
[19:37] <toad_> five hundred OSS geeks in one auditorium, on some events...
[19:37] <spaetz> :)
[19:38] <spaetz> hehe, that would be quite a setback yes.
[19:38] <toad_> better than e.g. shooting RMS, as has been suggested
[19:40] <toad_> I suppose you could make shooting RMS work, if you combined it with an outright ban and a global crackdown
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[19:40] <toad_> :)
[19:40] <spaetz> I doubt that shooting RMS would have a big effect besides a public outcry
[19:40] <spaetz> :-)
[19:40] <toad_> spaetz: exactly
[19:41] * spaetz yawns
[19:41] <toad_> woah, sf.net has 1M users.. wonder how many are dupes, how many are actually ACTIVE devs
[19:42] <spaetz> wow, they did crack the 1m? Amazing. I remember a talk by Jeff Bates stating that about half of the sf projects are dormant
[19:42] <toad_> nearly 1M :)
[19:42] <toad_> yeah, a lot of projects are dormant
[19:43] <toad_> i'd be surprised if it wasn't a lot more than half, really
[19:43] <spaetz> Given that you need a login account to submit a bug and get notification emails, I doubt that they all do dev work
[19:43] <toad_> I personally have two dormant sf projects, and am affiliated to a third
[19:43] <toad_> as well as freenet, which is active
[19:44] <spaetz> Heh, I got kicked out from freenet by now, I retired from Kmeleon, and have a dormant project which I founded :)
[19:44] <spaetz> which is the third project you refer to?
[19:44] <toad_> project of the month is PearPC.. a powerpc emulator. I wonder if there are OSS emulators for many archs?
[19:44] <toad_> spaetz: coldstore
[19:45] <toad_> spaetz: kicked out of freenet??
[19:45] <toad_> we don't kick people.. they leave :(
[19:45] <spaetz> nahh, retired over time
[19:45] <toad_> http://coldstore.sourceforge.net/
[19:45] <spaetz> I simply stopped using Windows, so maintaining the windows isntaller got kind of hard
[19:46] <toad_> sort of project to enhance C++, base is persistence, layer 1 is a class library (somewhat the opposite of STL), layer 2 is/would eventually be a scripting system, on top of which to build MOOs
[19:46] <spaetz> There are OSS emulators for nearly every arch out there, I believe
[19:47] <toad_> persistence - transparent persistence of objects via mmap and what amounts to virtual pointer relocations, with some level of recompile portability
[19:47] <toad_> spaetz: cool
[19:47] <spaetz> sounds like a compley and hard but interesting task
[19:47] <toad_> spaetz: i assume some of them are really really slow?
[19:47] <toad_> spaetz: yeah, but little application really
[19:47] <toad_> I like to do something concrete
[19:47] <toad_> CS was way too close to theory-for-the-hell-of-it
[19:47] <spaetz> I run my Amiga emu from time to time to play some old games
[19:48] <toad_> so what if I wanted to emulate an HP PA/RISC system (running linux) ?
[19:48] <toad_> for example?
[19:49] <spaetz> mmmh, that I don't know off hand
[19:49] <toad_> my other two projects are Everything Over Freenet (which I was a dev on), and the User Unfriendly Videos Database, which I was the sole dev on
[19:49] <spaetz> LOL, the latter sounds cool! Names are really important in OSS projects
[19:50] <spaetz> right, EoF I remember. So are there any other apps besides Frost?
[19:50] <toad_> I wonder if DOSBox runs Realms of Chaos... thomas managed to get a copy along with permission to redistribute locally within reason
[19:50] <toad_> spaetz: there have been lots
[19:50] <toad_> spaetz: freemail is one of the more interesting ones
[19:50] <toad_> of course it's abandoned, and written in python
[19:51] <toad_> we might adopt it, though there are language issues since it's not in java
[19:51] <toad_> i'd like to add multiple node/network support
[19:51] <toad_> for example
[19:51] <spaetz> toad_: Well, if it's a seperate app, that's not really an issue is it?
[19:51] <spaetz> although win users might have probs with that
[19:51] <toad_> spaetz: being unmaintained is a serious issue
[19:51] <toad_> and it would be very nice to ship it
[19:52] <toad_> but then it'd be nice to ship frost too
[19:52] <toad_> I don't know where packaging is going in the long term
[19:52] <spaetz> sure, it would need to be maintained
[19:52] <toad_> there are political reasons to avoid shipping frost...
[19:52] <spaetz> being, that it is a freenet stress testing app? Or the fact that you can download dubious binaries?
[19:53] <toad_> it's closer to "filesharing" than freenet proper
[19:53] <spaetz> if it's the latter, than the freenet web interfaace has similar concerns
[19:54] <spaetz> mmh, I can understand that. Freenet is going to be in trouble anyway once it works. So all potential trouble making apps should be kept away as far as possible
[19:54] <toad_> maybe
[19:54] <toad_> yeah, there is certainly that argument
[19:55] <toad_> should we enable screenshots on our sourceforge site?
[19:55] <toad_> it's a new feature...
[19:55] <toad_> and what should we screenshot?
[19:56] <spaetz> well, it wouldn't hurt. As long as it isn't a random freesite, that could lead to trouble :I
[19:56] <spaetz> :-)
[19:56] <spaetz> users love screenshots (including me)
[19:56] * toad_ wonders why there is no debian package of 7zip...
[19:57] <spaetz> standard web interface would be #1 screenshot
[19:57] <spaetz> a nifty statistics page with graphs on it #2
[19:57] <spaetz> and probably some harmless freesite as #3
[19:58] <toad_> Content of Evil, on a good day, perhaps
[19:58] <toad_> definitely not on a bad day!
[19:58] <spaetz> hehe, no that wouldn't be good, indeed
[19:59] <spaetz> a pic from an external app would be nice as well, to show that there is more than the browser
[19:59] <toad_> |7-Zip works in Windows 98/ME/NT/2000/XP. Command line version of 7-Zip can be used in Linux via Wine program.
[19:59] <toad_> WOAH
[19:59] <toad_> it only runs under wine?!
[19:59] <spaetz> Freesite insertion utility perhaps, or that IM app with included chess application
[19:59] <toad_> what sort of an OSS project is this that the command line version only runs under wine?! :)
[20:00] <spaetz> WHAT? I recently read an article on prolinux.de (German) about 7Zip, they liked it a lot.
[20:00] <spaetz> But a win only console app, that's weird
[20:01] <toad_> no, it has a gui too
[20:01] <toad_> but the console ver only runs on wine
[20:02] <spaetz> strange, assuming it's coded in C, they should have made the CLI version cross-platform.
[20:02] <spaetz> OS depended apps are sooooo out :)
[20:02] <toad_> I suppose their target is simply to eradicate winzip :)
[20:02] <toad_> i wish them luck!
[20:03] <spaetz> toad_: they'll never suceed. Win users are an apathic bunch. As new Win distris can handle winzip files, they'll never install something different
[20:03] * Usurp (~Usurp@trudaine-8-82-230-34-86.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[20:03] <toad_> hmm, there seems to be a linux version of a kind
[20:04] * spaetz wonders if apathic is a proper english term
[20:04] <toad_> apathETic
[20:04] <spaetz> ahh, right, I remember now. Thanks toad
[20:05] <spaetz> darn, being a non-native speaker sucks :)
[20:05] <spaetz> 7Zip seems to be a bit slow but great on compression rates
[20:05] <toad_> yeah, speed comparable to bzip2 from the looks of it
[20:07] <spaetz> ok, tired. Back to lurking mode, then to sleep soon. See you around
[20:07] * spaetz is now known as spaetzzZ
[20:09] * spaetzzZ turns on IRC talking mode (text2speech is a nice thing)
[20:10] <toad_> :)
[20:10] <toad_> i thought you were supposed to be going to sleep?
[20:10] <spaetzzZ> toadUnderscore sounds odd though :-)
[20:11] <toad_> you using festival, or..?
[20:11] <spaetzzZ> yep, still in lurking, chill out mode :-)
[20:11] <spaetzzZ> festival and irssi yep
[20:11] <toad_> cool, although I'm not convinced it's improved much in the last several years :<
[20:12] <toad_> still at least we have a good OSS recognizer now (even if it's in java), at least for small vocab
[20:12] <spaetzzZ> toad_: I agree. My Aniga500 could talk just as well, and that was back in 1989 (or so)
[20:12] <toad_> :(
[20:13] <spaetzzZ> mbrola sounds good. I use it for German output.
[20:13] <toad_> |Version 2.0 is coming at the end of October 2004. A beta version of this release labeled 1.95-beta is currently available for testing. This is the most recent version available free for unrestricted use.
[20:13] <toad_> shit
[20:14] <toad_> hmmm
[20:14] <toad_> that doesn't automatically imply what it at first suggested
[20:15] <toad_> spaetzzZ: MBROLA doesn't make even the remotest pretence of being free though :<
[20:16] <toad_> | Waveform synthesizers: diphone based: residual excited LPC (and PSOLA not for distribution) -- let me guess, patent problems? :(
[20:17] <spaetzzZ> don't know if its patents.
[20:17] <spaetzzZ> Probably
[20:18] <spaetzzZ> They do seem to sell licenses for commercial apps
[20:19] * spaetzzZ goes back to pseudosleep mode
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[21:04] <mikeeusa> hi
[21:04] <mikeeusa> anything new?
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[21:15] <KenMan> hi mikee! what race or religion do you most hate this week ?
[21:19] <KenMan> will you be seranading us today with your masterful repetoire of racial slurs ? I *so* miss your unique and creative use of common derogatives, by simply repeating them ad-infinitum...
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[21:36] <toad_> hmm
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[21:42] <toad_> cool
[21:42] * toad_ has a new IRC client, Konversation
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[21:51] <mikeeusa> KenMan: this week I hate women
[21:52] <mikeeusa> and wicca
[21:52] * mikeeusa broods in hatread
[21:52] <mikeeusa> Bet you can't beat my hate, enough for the 52 of the pop :)
[21:53] <KenMan> wikka is not really a slang term. Come on, where's all that offensive bile you must have stored up? You know, the stuff that drives people away from IRC channels.
[21:54] <mikeeusa> I post it on web forums nowadays
[21:54] <mikeeusa> It gains a wider audiance and is catalouged on google for posterity
[21:54] <KenMan> you couldn't quite master pushing the IRC flood rate without tipping past it , huh ?
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[21:55] <KenMan> hey there's one down already !
[21:55] <mikeeusa> well IRC turned out not to be the ideal medium
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[21:55] <mikeeusa> I have found, as many before me have seen, that webforums are far more lucrative
[21:56] <KenMan> I'm sorry to hear you have given up assaulting unsuspecting chat rooms. Well, not really. Anyway, you are building a loyal following of racists ?
[21:56] <mikeeusa> no no
[21:56] <mikeeusa> i let go of racism
[21:56] <mikeeusa> now I am on to sexism
[21:57] <mikeeusa> it is a much more fertile field
[21:57] <mikeeusa> and has some legitiamate grevances
[21:58] <mikeeusa> the virthrolic banter that can be thrown back at feminists makes previous endevors very pittiling things
[21:58] <KenMan> well, so long as you enjoy what you do in life.
[21:58] <mikeeusa> ah very much so :)
[21:59] * toad_ (toad@toad-with-underline.active.supporter.pdpc) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[21:59] <mikeeusa> I am contemplating introducing some accuall bills into my state houses
[21:59] <mikeeusa> like one that will make husbands privy to their wives voting records
[21:59] <KenMan> although, one (such as yourself) could easily take the position that they hate to see other people enjoying life.
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[21:59] <mikeeusa> that should create a huge uproar don't you think ?
[21:59] <mikeeusa> and if it gets passed then all married men get a +1
[22:00] <toad_> okay, that's all the borging-up I'm going to do for now
[22:00] <mikeeusa> and +1 is a good thing
[22:00] <KenMan> yup. You really shouldn't be wasting your time in this channel. Few participants care about wives' voting rights...
[22:00] <toad_> KDE now automatically starts everything I want on startup, using the correct users
[22:00] <toad_> wives' voting rights?
[22:00] <mikeeusa> KenMan: wives do
[22:00] <mikeeusa> <KenMan> well, so long as you enjoy what you do in life.
[22:00] <mikeeusa> <mikeeusa> ah very much so :)
[22:00] <mikeeusa> <mikeeusa> I am contemplating introducing some accuall bills into my state houses
[22:00] <mikeeusa> <mikeeusa> like one that will make husbands privy to their wives voting records
[22:01] <toad_> LOL
[22:01] <KenMan> well, there aren't any wives in this channel for you to pester.
[22:01] <toad_> there is however, one op
[22:01] <toad_> :)
[22:01] <mikeeusa> the best part is that I will gain the hold of the mass media
[22:01] <toad_> who is about to go to bed
[22:01] <mikeeusa> night toad_
[22:01] <KenMan> night all
[22:01] <mikeeusa> ima sleep to
[22:01] <mikeeusa> so night
[22:01] <toad_> maybe i should +o hobx first? or even KenMan?
[22:01] <toad_> KenMan: you want op?
[22:02] <KenMan> not just yet. I will avert my eyes for the next 12 hours or so...
[22:02] <toad_> okay
[22:02] <toad_> bbl zzz
[22:02] * toad_ sets mode +o hobx
[22:24] <toad_> bbl zzz
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
