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[2:07] <jzxu> sorry if you've heard this question a million times, but why can't I get any freesites except things like yoyo and freedom engine?
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[4:18] <linagee> what's with all the french stuff on Frost?
[4:20] <d-ArkAngel> probably french people ;-)
[4:26] <linagee> why doesn't Frost recognize CHK/SSK/etc in messages and make those clickable or something? i have to copy/paste into download window?
[4:30] * sanity (~ian@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[4:39] <linagee> what does Age: Offline mean in Frost?
[5:20] * kevlAway is now known as kevloral
[5:20] <kevloral> g'morning all
[5:27] <kevloral> linagee: Frost doesn't recognize those because nobody has implemented it.
[5:27] <linagee> kevloral: hehehe. time to hack some java code. :)
[5:28] <kevloral> linagee: and offline means that those files are not currently in freenet, but that if you try to download them, and the person that originally shared them is still sharing them in his copy of frost, his copy of frost *should* automatically insert them into freenet (so you can download them). Well, that's the theory at least.
[5:29] <linagee> kevloral: you said it's not implemented yet, you mean nobody has made clickable links for messages to download them yet??
[5:29] <kevloral> linagee: contributions to the frost codebase are definitely welcome. :-)
[5:29] <kevloral> linagee: that's correct.
[5:29] <linagee> kevloral: Frost does seem a bit rough around the edges. heh
[5:30] <kevloral> linagee: I know, I know.
[5:30] <linagee> kevloral: wow. so many people love that goatse.cx guy. they keep posting the ASCII pic of him. hah
[5:31] <kevloral> linagee: uh, I didn't know that. I filtered that pic ages ago.
[5:31] <linagee> kevloral: filtered a pic, hrm.... you can do that? :)
[5:31] <kevloral> linagee: in options/news(2).
[5:31] <linagee> oic
[5:32] <kevloral> linagee: i wrote _________/ (the goatse pic has that sequence of characters) in the field called "block messages with body containing..." and that's it
[5:33] <linagee> kevloral: but what if i wanted to say, fill in the blank (____________/No)? :)
[5:33] <linagee> wow. i think the lack of sleep is starting to get to me. :)
[5:33] <linagee> 2:34AM PST.
[5:33] * linagee goes to bed
[5:33] <kevloral> linagee: well, the filter is not perfect! :-)
[5:33] <mazzanet> 9:34pm
[5:33] <mazzanet> :P
[5:34] <kevloral> 11:34 am :-)
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[5:40] <jzxu> I'm new to freenet and am experiencing really really slow performance on a cable modem. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 minutes to load a site. Is this normal?
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[5:41] <kevloral> jzxu: how long have you been running your node?
[5:42] <jzxu> main page says 2h11m now
[5:43] <kevloral> jzxu: give it time to integrate with the network.
[5:43] <jzxu> how long typically?
[5:44] <kevloral> jzxu: uh, I don't know. I only use frost, and the perception of performance is different with it after all.
[5:48] <jzxu> compared to the internet, how fast is freenet for you?
[5:48] <kevloral> jzxu: slower, of course.
[5:51] <jzxu> I mean like, much slower, half as fast, some kind of informal rating ...
[5:52] <kevloral> jzxu: for browsing freesites: much slower. For downloading files with fuquid: a bit slower. Fur receiving/sending messages with frost: just fine.
[5:55] <jzxu> cool
[5:56] <jzxu> the pity is, it doesn't seem worth it to put anything that's respectable on an obscure network like freenet rather than the internet
[5:56] <jzxu> and it ends up with all this child porn
[5:57] <d-ArkAngel> or say indymedia
[5:58] <d-ArkAngel> look at what happened to them
[5:59] <d-ArkAngel> once freenet gets a little better (something I hope is inevitable) then I suspect that a lot more of the fringe media, who want to say what they want without censorship will be interested in freenet and it's bretheren
[6:00] <jzxu> yes, but still the problem remains
[6:00] <jzxu> it'll be a place to go for things that shouldn't be said elsewhere
[6:00] <jzxu> rather than a mainstream network
[6:01] <kevloral> jzxu: so? if you want a mainstream network you already have the internet.
[6:01] <jzxu> but freenet will never enjoy the popularity of the internet then
[6:02] <kevloral> jzxu: that is obvious.
[6:04] <jzxu> yes, all I'm saying is that because of its niche purpose freenet will always be in danger of being shut down or fading away
[6:05] <jzxu> and that's a shame because it seems like a pretty interesting thing to have around
[6:07] <kevloral> jzxu: well, it has been hanging aroung for quite a long time now. Nevertheless, if it becomes more widely used in the future, that popularity will make it become a target for the authorities but at the same time make it harder to get shut down (that is, prohibited with some excuse: child porn, terrorism, etc...)
[6:07] <jzxu> especially the part about combining a part of everyone's unused disk space into an apparently monolithic storage space
[6:21] <sdogi_> anyone here has a network you have to watch after sometimes? i mean like lan that you share internet to...
[6:21] <sdogi_> i need a traffic analyzer that shows bandwitdh usage per ip
[6:21] <sdogi_> there seems to be no tool for that
[6:21] <d-ArkAngel> toad was looking for something like that a while back
[6:22] <d-ArkAngel> I think he found one.
[6:22] <d-ArkAngel> not sure what it was tho
[6:22] <sdogi_> he found one? cool
[6:22] <sdogi_> i'll ask him later then... i was so desperate
[6:22] <d-ArkAngel> ethreal might be able to do that
[6:22] <sdogi_> yeah someone mentioned ethreal, but it seemed like tcpdump to me
[6:23] <d-ArkAngel> but I've never used it for that purpose.
[6:23] * d-ArkAngel loads it up to look at the capture options
[6:24] <sdogi_> yeah, well.. i have this big network and there are bunch of guys who are total hogs.. it's so hard to determine who is hogging, because i have to check every connection, or i have to do tcpdump > somefile and measure who had most packages
[6:24] <sdogi_> but it's not the best way
[6:24] <sdogi_> it's not a good way at all
[6:25] <sdogi_> anyway gotta run
[6:25] <sdogi_> later
[6:25] <sdogi_> and thanks, i'll look into that ethreal
[6:26] <d-ArkAngel> it does do it, kinda
[6:27] <d-ArkAngel> basicaly you can capture all the trafic, and then use the "Endpoints" summary to see how much data each IP is TX/RX in the capture time
[6:28] <d-ArkAngel> it shows it in terms of both packets and bytes in TX, RX and TOTAL
[6:28] <d-ArkAngel> I've never looked at these statistic/analysis features before.
[6:29] <d-ArkAngel> I guess you do learn something new every day :-)
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[6:32] <d-ArkAngel> also it seems you can graph the IO over time based on IP address.
[6:32] <d-ArkAngel> well based on a filter.
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[8:28] <sanity> anyone awake?
[8:28] <toad_> hi
[8:28] <sanity> hi toad
[8:28] <sanity> hey, would you mind trying out dijjer - won't take long (5 mins)
[8:29] <sanity> you can get the jar from: http://dijjer.org/
[8:29] <sanity> then try the "evolution of the universe" video linked from that page
[8:35] <toad_> downloading
[8:35] <sanity> i know :-)
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[8:39] <sanity> you can check on its progress at http://127.0.0.1:9115/
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[9:03] <toad_> downloaded
[9:03] <toad_> at ~ 20kB/sec
[9:04] <toad_> sanity: will dijer fownload files on demand for other nodes?
[9:04] <toad_> sanity: i have a problem with running a proxy
[9:04] <toad_> specifically, there's a shoot first ask questions later mentality w.r.t. child porn
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[9:05] <toad_> Finished download 33358819 bytes of http://mirrors.creativecommons.org/movingimages/Mix_Tape.mov in 1691514ms with 0% coming from P2P network, 0% from local cache
[9:05] <sanity> it will, but anything on dijjer has to be on the web
[9:05] <toad_> so it just downloaded it directly?
[9:06] <sanity> you are in no more of a moral quandry than an ISP running a HTTP cache
[9:06] <toad_> sanity: sure, and there are thousands of open-web child porn sites
[9:06] <toad_> yes but i'm not an ISP
[9:06] <toad_> that's the problem
[9:06] <sanity> toad: what difference does that make from a moral perspective?
[9:06] <toad_> i don't have their laxitude
[9:06] <sanity> toad: isp does it to help people download stuff faster, and so do you
[9:06] <sanity> laxitude?
[9:07] <sanity> besides, how much child porn is
[9:07] <sanity> on the web?
[9:07] <toad_> the level playing field is in fact a large sheet of stretched rubber. it is distorted by bags of gold placed on the surface at various points, just as gravity distorts space time
[9:07] <sanity> i have never seen one
[9:07] <sanity> huh?
[9:07] <toad_> you haven't looked
[9:07] <toad_> turn the filters off on google and search for it
[9:08] <greycat> you might want to leave the US/UK first.
[9:08] <sanity> so you run Freenet, but not Dijjer - even though freenet is *far* more likely to have child porn?
[9:08] <toad_> sanity: I'm not running a proxy without a good reason, because I fear the consequences of some fool using it to download some shit
[9:08] <toad_> I have no problem with freenet
[9:08] <toad_> because there's a good reason
[9:08] <toad_> but there is little reason for dijer
[9:09] <toad_> and everything is plaintext
[9:09] <sanity> what are those consequences? there is noting illegal about running a HTTP cache, even if a very small minority misuse it
[9:09] <sanity> little reason for dijjer? ever try distributing a popular large file?
[9:10] <toad_> bittorrent
[9:10] <KenMan> does the name have anything to do with one of those long australian 'instruments' that sounds like "vzzvzvvvvvzzzvvv"
[9:10] <sanity> bittorrent sucks
[9:10] <greycat> heh
[9:11] <toad_> without a free speech imperative, I don't think it's reasonable to take the risk
[9:12] <sanity> toad: fair enough, you have the right to that opinion, but a very much doubt that many people will share it. if it is moral for an ISP to run a HTTP cache, then it is equally moral for me, or you, to run Dijjer
[9:12] <toad_> well i happen to think that getting kicked from my ISP for downloading child porn over the open web would greatly inconvenience me and the other users
[9:13] <toad_> and might lead to unwanted attention
[9:13] <KenMan> hmmm, we need a legal test case. Anyone seen any (scape)goats ?
[9:13] <toad_> which would be even more of an inconvenience
[9:13] <toad_> anyway it doesn't work
[9:14] <toad_> Finished download 33358819 bytes of http://mirrors.creativecommons.org/movingimages/Mix_Tape.mov in 1691514ms with 0% coming from P2P network, 0% from local cache
[9:14] <toad_> 0% from P2P network!
[9:14] <toad_> unless that's an accounting bug, which is quite possible
[9:14] <sanity> toad: rubbish, i am not aware of a single instance of someone getting kicked from their isp for downloading child porn.
[9:14] <sanity> toad: taht is because you are the first person to download it
[9:14] <sanity> ii'm downloading the same file and so far almost all of it has come from the p2p network
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[9:15] <toad_> well I might think about it, but I can't make such a decision without input from other stakeholders
[9:16] <KenMan> wait a minute, i can't tell... are you guys fighting ? I haven't seen any expletives yet !
[9:16] <toad_> i admit it's a cool idea
[9:16] <spaetz> first time I here about it. Any links?
[9:16] <toad_> bbl
[9:16] <sanity> toad: if you want to construct some kind of moral quandry out of it then fine, but i very much doubt that most people will
[9:16] <spaetz> Sourceforge?
[9:17] <sanity> spaetz: http://dijjer.org
[9:17] <spaetz> thanks, sanity
[9:17] <spaetz> lol, please don't submit us to slashdot :)
[9:17] <sanity> spaetz: also, you can join #dijjer to discuss it
[9:18] <greycat> sanity: it's a very good concept, though. I like it.
[9:18] <greycat> Too bad about the "you will need Java" bit.
[9:19] <sanity> greycat: me too, i have been mulling it over for a while
[9:19] <sanity> greycat: not true, it can be compiled with GCJ
[9:20] <spaetz> yep, that gcj part is good. Many people still refrain from installing java
[9:29] <KenMan> toad, I finished that graph I was working on - http://mywebpages.comcast.net/jkcorson/FreeNet/sumsim.png
[9:30] <KenMan> so, sanity, does digger mean that you have discovered that FreeNet will never work ? or you just like to keep active ?
[9:30] <sanity> kenman: huh?
[9:31] <KenMan> I mean, it almost looks bad that you would spend personal development effort on dijjer vs. FreeNet
[9:31] <sanity> kenman: don't be an ass
[9:31] <KenMan> it is just a coincidence, right ? no, i don't mean anything by it !! i'm sure it is a great project.
[9:32] <sanity> kenman: a) dijjer is completely different to Freenet, solving a different problem. b) i get paid to work on Dijjer
[9:32] <KenMan> ahh, you have resolved my curio$ity ;)
[9:32] <greycat> nitpick: "Dijjer will be released under the GNU Public License." should be "Dijjer will be released under the GNU General Public License."
[9:33] <sanity> but even if it didn't get paid to work on it, just because i choose to investigate other problems than those solved by Freenet doesn't mean i have lost faith in Freenet
[9:33] <sanity> greycat: you are right, it is a nitpick
[9:35] <KenMan> yes, i think if you lost faith , toad would not get paid... that is not an insignificant 'contribution' on your part. Somehow I still want to see you elbow deep in FreeNet source code! Just can't shake that desire.
[9:35] <toad_> so what's the business model?
[9:35] <KenMan> "have fun, make money" is always a good one
[9:36] <toad_> i mean with dijer?
[9:36] <spaetz> toad_: spread it than sue all users for illegal file sharing :)
[9:36] <greycat> KenMan: "And hear the lamentations of the women!"
[9:36] <toad_> lol
[9:37] <sanity> toad: it is part of a wider project, not all of which will be open source
[9:38] <toad_> ahhh
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[9:46] <goatee> Finished download 48995723 bytes of http://www.archive.org/download/Mosh2/GNN_Mosh_bb2.mov in 1970981ms with 25% coming from P2P network, 25% from local cache
[9:46] <goatee> oops, wrong channel, sorry
[9:58] <KenMan> hi goatie
[9:59] <KenMan> toad - for whatever reason, the 200x15 sim run 100 times shows that random routing is ever so slightly better than NGR w/o random routing :(
[10:01] <KenMan> the choice of only running out to 1M requests, or RT=15, may influence the results somewhat... still, it is discouraging to me.
[10:09] <toad_> KenMan: I have run sims with pure random routing
[10:09] <toad_> they suck
[10:09] <toad_> not on huge networks, but certainly on 100x25
[10:09] <toad_> and it was FAR below the NGR lines
[10:10] <toad_> and I think it's perfectly reasonable to random route 5% of requests
[10:10] <toad_> it's quite reasonable that that would produce better success
[10:10] <toad_> AS I HAVE EXPLAINED
[10:10] <toad_> especially in relation to bootstrapping
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[10:14] <KenMan> sure, I'm just trying to understand the exact behaviors which random routing produces
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[10:17] <KenMan> i wonder if/how NGR could be modified to directly address the problem(s) which random routing is meant to compensate for.
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[10:40] <toad_> KenMan: it can't
[10:40] <toad_> KenMan: NGR routes on available info only
[10:40] <toad_> it does not take into account info which is not available
[10:41] <toad_> random routing (which is not in fact random, it routes to the least experienced node... probe routing, lets call it) is for probing nodes we don't have much data on, which have bad estimators
[10:41] <toad_> because we can't do optimistic init, which would be the other option, but makes for a very nice attack
[10:41] <toad_> not to mention having practical issues
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[14:39] <kevloral> g'evening all
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[14:47] <kevloral2> re
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[14:52] * kevloral2 is now known as kevloral
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[15:03] * sdogi_ (~java@84-50-18-250-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) has joined #freenet
[15:06] * pupok (~r00t@adsl-65-71-236-208.dsl.wcfltx.swbell.net) has joined #freenet
[15:15] * sdogi (~java@84-50-20-90-dsl.kjj.estpak.ee) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[15:23] * sanity (~ian@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[15:30] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:00] * TLF (~francisco@244.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:24] * kevloral2 (~kevloral@CZ1-RAS-8-u-0179.du.onolab.com) has joined #freenet
[16:28] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("This time the bullet cold rocked ya / A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika")
[16:32] * sanity (~ian@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ()
[16:35] * zab_ (~zab@dsl027-158-074.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #freenet
[16:36] <zab_> Simple reliable UDP data transfer, eh ;-)
[16:38] * zab_ (~zab@dsl027-158-074.nyc1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #freenet
[16:42] * kevloral (~kevloral@CZ1-RAS-8-u-0179.du.onolab.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[16:42] * kevloral2 is now known as kevloral
[16:59] * TLF (~francisco@244.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[17:28] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) has left #freenet
[17:29] * jzxu (~abc@charter-187-161.caltech.edu) Quit ()
[17:31] * T3chni (~kvirc@reshall-137-55.OIT.EDU) Quit ("Using KVIrc 3.0.1 'System Virtue'")
[18:11] * spaetzAway (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[18:32] * kevloral is now known as kevlAway
[18:43] * Sugadude (~Sugadude@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to) has joined #freenet
[18:44] * Sugardude (1000@xoder.rh.rit.edu) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[19:02] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (No route to host)
[19:15] * TLF (~francisco@244.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[19:33] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-232-006.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[19:46] * spaetzAway (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit ("Lost terminal")
[19:47] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[19:47] * spaetz (~spaetz@80-218-147-20.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:53] <toad_> <zab_> Simple reliable UDP data transfer, eh ;-) - FSP perhaps? oh well he won't read this...
[19:56] * sanity (~ian@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[20:18] <KenMan> gurgle
[20:20] <KenMan> fsp ? I haven't heard of that in like 10 years !! does anyone still use it ?
[20:22] <KenMan> okay, toad_ , I'm rerunning the probing percentage test with 200x20x20HTLx100DS , halting at 2.5M requests. It's gonna be another day or three before they finish running...
[20:23] <KenMan> about 90 hours to go !
[20:24] <KenMan> 5% random probing came in at 0.75 pSuccess
[21:17] * sanity (~ian@81-178-106-165.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ()
[21:23] * |UK-Monster| is now known as leexgx
[21:36] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-215-63.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #freenet
[21:45] * leexgx is now known as leexgx-zzz
[22:11] * ascyltus (~a@pcp09521295pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[22:15] * ascyltus (~a@pcp09521295pcs.jersyc01.nj.comcast.net) has left #freenet
[23:48] * [asciiwh] (~Asciiwhit@ppp204-229.lns1.syd3.internode.on.net) has joined #freenet
[23:48] <[asciiwh]> hey fellas
[23:48] <[asciiwh]> are most freenet portals down for ppl
[23:49] <[asciiwh]> im trying to access them through i2p proxy
[23:50] <[asciiwh]> and well The Freedom Engine FIND is Not Dolphin and YoYo! are unaccesible for me
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
