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[6:06] <kevloral> g'morning all
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[6:26] <d-ArkAngel> did kers ever turn up?
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[8:16] <kevloral> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19469
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[9:40] <toad_> |Number two is that no matter how cool and geeky the community - and LiveJournal is both - there will always be someone that ruins it for everyone else. And they will probably be Republican.
[9:40] <toad_> i've known some of these people :)
[9:43] * toad_ thinks that should be on freenet
[9:45] <toad_> |Now, at this juncture, I am not planning on making any kind of formal complaint with the A.C.L.U., as some on my friendslist have suggested. I did not feel that my civil rights were violated by the visit, and I did not feel intimidated by the Secret Service agents.
[9:45] <toad_> idiot...
[9:45] <toad_> well the visit isn't the problem; if they put her on the no fly list, that would be a BIG problem
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[9:51] <Redb3ard> they may well
[9:51] <Redb3ard> and it may not be immediately either
[9:51] <Redb3ard> she might be able to fly today, tomorrow
[9:51] <Redb3ard> and 3 years from now go on it
[9:51] <toad_> very kafka..
[9:52] <toad_> somebody should make a simple Why
[9:52] <toad_> Why We Need Freenet site
[9:52] <toad_> with links to all this stupid stuff
[9:52] <toad_> and $cientology
[9:52] <toad_> and so on
[9:52] <Redb3ard> i agree
[9:52] <toad_> there are lots of nice freesites
[9:52] <toad_> but most that do that approach it indirectly
[9:52] <Redb3ard> hell, how many can you come up with, off the top of your head?
[9:52] <toad_> we need something newbie compatible
[9:52] <Redb3ard> bnetd
[9:53] <Redb3ard> fan fiction
[9:53] <Redb3ard> consumer complaints
[9:53] <toad_> well there's a lot on the existing sites
[9:53] <toad_> $cientology
[9:53] <toad_> the Secret Service
[9:53] <toad_> the research alone would take a week, but you don't need to put EVERYTHING on :)
[9:53] <Redb3ard> nah, make a big lists
[9:53] <Redb3ard> include everything
[9:54] <Redb3ard> otherwise, you have some fool who says "i just wont do those things"
[9:54] <toad_> brief comment on each; order them by priority
[9:54] <Redb3ard> hell, maybe its the wrong approach though
[9:54] <Redb3ard> i mean, the truth is, many things you dont know weren't safe until its too late
[9:54] * d-ArkAngel can't believe he's just bought a zaurus SL-6000W
[9:54] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: that's bad?
[9:55] <d-ArkAngel> only for my finances.
[9:55] <toad_> $?
[9:55] <d-ArkAngel> just under $800
[9:55] <d-ArkAngel> import from japan
[9:55] <toad_> uhh, for $800 you could get something with 256M of RAM and a hard disk..
[9:56] <toad_> and not much bigger
[9:56] <d-ArkAngel> you can pick up a 6000L for about $500 I think, but the W with the Bluetooth was more what I wanted... and I'm always tempted to go that extra step.
[9:57] <d-ArkAngel> it's only money right? :-) and this is probably the last time I'll have and spare money to spend on fun geek toys.
[9:57] <toad_> 802.11 too?
[9:57] <d-ArkAngel> yes
[9:58] <d-ArkAngel> about 4 hours of battery life too. (beats the hour I get from my old 5500
[9:58] * toad_ passed that point years ago when i realized that there are other people in the world than me :)
[9:59] <toad_> granted i'm about to spend a little on my zaurus, since it would have helped yesterday
[9:59] <toad_> and i plan to buy some games for xmas
[9:59] <toad_> :)
[10:00] <d-ArkAngel> I'm going to have a mortgage some time next week, and so I doubt I'll be spending anything for quite a while. (bloody housing market)
[10:00] <toad_> hah
[10:00] <Redb3ard> i feel like i should be celebrating
[10:00] <Redb3ard> arafat is almost dead
[10:00] <toad_> Redb3ard: any news? last i heard he was getting better
[10:00] <Redb3ard> is it necessary to wait until he really is, or do i dance a jig now?
[10:00] * toad_ would prefer that he survived and retired, but I'm skeptical that he really ever would
[10:00] <Redb3ard> cnn just claimed he has slipped into a coma
[10:00] <toad_> yikes
[10:01] <d-ArkAngel> "taken a turn for the worse" was the line about 30 min ago, althought reports that he's in a comma have been confirmed as false.
[10:01] <Redb3ard> you ever read what the KGB had to say about him?
[10:01] <Redb3ard> cnn is lying then
[10:01] <toad_> no..
[10:01] <Redb3ard> not a minute ago, said he was in a coma
[10:01] <d-ArkAngel> "almost as trigger happy as bush" ? :-)
[10:02] <toad_> |Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat is in critical condition at a Paris military hospital after drifting in and out of consciousness throughout the night, senior Palestinian officials tell CNN.
[10:02] <Redb3ard> the KGB said he was a brilliant actor, that they couldnt believe how well he portrayed someone who gave a damn about the palestinians
[10:02] <d-ArkAngel> "Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's health has deteriorated sharply at the Paris hospital where he is being treated for an unexplained illness."
[10:02] <d-ArkAngel> "He is in intensive care, but aides have issued conflicting reports about whether he has fallen into a coma. "
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[10:03] <Redb3ard> they were paying him to do this through the late 80s
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[10:03] <toad_> the usual confusion...
[10:03] <d-ArkAngel> "But sources close to his entourage in Paris say he has become unconscious three times in the last two days, and he did not regain consciousness the third time."
[10:03] <toad_> LOL Redb3ard
[10:04] <Redb3ard> toad, im serious
[10:04] <Redb3ard> he was recruited by them, forget when, to do the terrorist thing, for paychecks
[10:04] <toad_> well what was he really after then?
[10:04] <Redb3ard> money, apparently
[10:04] <Redb3ard> they paid him dearly to nettle israel
[10:04] <toad_> well, we might take money from the US government.. that doesn't mean we'd be owned by them
[10:04] <toad_> we don't, but at one point it was conceivable
[10:04] <Redb3ard> apparently because israel is an ally of the us
[10:05] <d-ArkAngel> I suppose him being on the KGB payroll might explain why no-one has taken him out yet....
[10:05] <toad_> no,
[10:05] <Redb3ard> he wasnt a freedom fighter who got a KGB grant to continue the fight
[10:05] <toad_> if israel kills him, all hell will break loose
[10:05] <Redb3ard> see, thats the thing
[10:05] <Redb3ard> they were putting out feelers for palestinians willing to do this for money
[10:05] <Redb3ard> and he put in an application
[10:06] <Redb3ard> or so i understand it, some of the coolest stuff may not even be translated
[10:06] <d-ArkAngel> and if this illness kills him... same result. :-) ahh well, I think that a "good time to bury bad news" is comming
[10:06] <toad_> nope
[10:06] <toad_> if the illness kills him, it could work out okay
[10:06] <toad_> maybe
[10:06] <d-ArkAngel> yeah right
[10:06] <d-ArkAngel> he'll die
[10:06] <toad_> i'm not saying it will, but it MIGHT
[10:06] <Redb3ard> dark, not sure he's been on the KGB payroll in a long while
[10:06] <d-ArkAngel> the terrorists will blow stuff up
[10:06] <Redb3ard> but, about the time they would have fired him, was when he became a "peacemaker"
[10:07] <Redb3ard> all that shit with clinton
[10:07] <d-ArkAngel> then the tanks will move in and "subdue" the problem.
[10:07] <Redb3ard> btu, he's seemed more to want to remain in power, than really bring peace for "his people"
[10:07] <toad_> and saying the KGB are responsible for the whole palestine/israel mess is mistaking a part of the problem for the whole problem
[10:07] <Redb3ard> oh, dont get me wrong
[10:07] <Redb3ard> palestine was a mess without anyone's help
[10:07] <Redb3ard> just saying that the KGB stirred the pot a little
[10:08] <toad_> well, firstly, we get a more reasonable government for a while - the two PMs are very good, they both grumbled a lot about their inability to do anything due to arafat
[10:08] <toad_> of course there would have to be an election
[10:08] <d-ArkAngel> if the bloody germans handn't decided to pick on them specifically then things would be much different (since the international community wouldn't have felt the need to set them up with their own country where there already was one)
[10:08] <toad_> Redb3ard: sure, like we stirred up iraq, iran (a lot!), and more
[10:08] <Redb3ard> assuming that its not a arafat cronie, theres a chance for real peace
[10:08] <toad_> Redb3ard: as I said, the PMs are reasonable
[10:08] <toad_> I think they were elected too
[10:09] <Redb3ard> some of the israelis realize that if they dont want palestinians to be citizens, then they *have* to let them have their own soveriegnty
[10:09] <toad_> so maybe they'll get it
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[10:09] <toad_> Redb3ard: in a small concentration camp with no water, no arable land, no jobs and no borders
[10:09] <Redb3ard> i hate the palestinian apologists, mind you
[10:09] <Redb3ard> but sharon is an asshat in his own right
[10:09] <toad_> well okay a large concentration camp :)
[10:10] <toad_> Redb3ard: he seems to have had some witnesses in a war crimes case against him killed
[10:10] <d-ArkAngel> would this be peace as in iraq, northen irland, spain or sweeden?
[10:10] <toad_> but perhaps mossad did that off his own bat
[10:10] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[10:10] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: I don't see any serious trouble emanating from NI
[10:10] <Redb3ard> swedish peace?
[10:10] <toad_> s/his/its
[10:10] <Redb3ard> those bloodthirsty vikings?
[10:10] <toad_> what's up with sweden?
[10:10] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[10:11] <Redb3ard> didnt they just nail a bunch of good christians to the uppsala tree again?
[10:11] <Redb3ard> im thinking NI peace
[10:11] <toad_> no idea what you are talking about
[10:11] <toad_> ah
[10:11] <Redb3ard> the kind where both still hate each other, but there havent really been any bombings
[10:11] <toad_> well there may be some revenge killings and so on
[10:11] <toad_> but THERE ARE NO BOMBINGS !
[10:11] <toad_> and nothing on the mainland
[10:12] <toad_> not that I care more about the mainland, but if it's serious, there'd be shootings here and so on
[10:12] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, we've turned them all into politicians... I wonder what's worse :-)
[10:12] <toad_> :)
[10:12] <Redb3ard> toad, are you in ireland?
[10:12] <d-ArkAngel> at least a man with a gun is mostly honest about what he's doing :-)
[10:12] <toad_> well, as long as they only kill the politicians, that's fine :)
[10:12] <toad_> Redb3ard: no
[10:13] <Redb3ard> ah
[10:13] <Redb3ard> good, was wondering if you were, why it was :gb instead of :ie
[10:13] <Redb3ard> my script usually works ;)
[10:13] * d-ArkAngel wonders if perhapse we could cause a change in politics to a type of deathmatching over policy...
[10:13] * kevloral is now known as kevlAway
[10:13] <Redb3ard> hmmm
[10:13] <Redb3ard> thats not a bad idea
[10:13] <toad_> now i'm .pdpc :)
[10:14] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: hmmm
[10:14] <Redb3ard> id donate money to irish terrorists, if theyd be willing to come over here and knock off a few of our politicians
[10:14] <toad_> just go live in sudan :)
[10:14] <Redb3ard> actually
[10:14] * d-ArkAngel wonders if the Americans are one step ahead as usual with the appointment of a certain German senater)
[10:14] <toad_> Redb3ard: well, then, see what you can do about the Jim Bell Assassination Protocol ;|
[10:14] <Redb3ard> if osama had slammed the 4 jets into DC, into the capitol building...
[10:14] <toad_> which?
[10:14] <Redb3ard> id have no grudge with him at all
[10:14] <toad_> the white house?
[10:14] <Redb3ard> that, or the Capitol (congress)
[10:15] <toad_> the outcome would have been the same..
[10:15] <Redb3ard> congress would be better, he might get quite a few, if it were in session
[10:15] <Redb3ard> no it wouldnt
[10:15] <toad_> and security was probably tighter
[10:15] <Redb3ard> the outcome would be totally different
[10:15] <toad_> the original plan called for blowing up nuclear reactors too
[10:15] <Redb3ard> first off, little loss of human life
[10:15] <toad_> indeed
[10:15] <Redb3ard> unless there were tourists at the time, none at all
[10:15] <toad_> in that sense, it would have been better
[10:16] <d-ArkAngel> yeah politicians are not human are they? :-)
[10:16] <Redb3ard> just congressmen dead
[10:16] <Redb3ard> so in other words, no loss of human life
[10:16] <toad_> yeah, and what does that mean?
[10:16] <toad_> well, congressmen are human, but they're almost legitimate targets (as opposed to civilians), like bush is
[10:16] <Redb3ard> that means osama would be a hero to the american people, maybe even a patriot deserving of citizenship
[10:16] <toad_> BUT
[10:16] <Redb3ard> instead of a lousy murderer
[10:17] <toad_> what would have happened if you take out the entire congress?
[10:17] <toad_> anyway, osama wants to be hated
[10:17] <toad_> that's critical to his strategy
[10:17] <toad_> would you have new elections?
[10:17] <toad_> would you have martial law?
[10:17] <d-ArkAngel> lol, so we should foil his plan by showing him the love? :-)
[10:18] <toad_> it wouldn't have turned out well for american citizens
[10:18] <Redb3ard> like i said, if he had nailed congress, id have nothing against him at all
[10:18] <toad_> I would
[10:18] <toad_> but not as much
[10:18] <toad_> but I don't know what the consequences would have been
[10:19] <toad_> they might have been severe
[10:19] <Redb3ard> im not sure
[10:19] <Redb3ard> usually our contingencies revolve around losing the president
[10:19] <Redb3ard> not congress
[10:19] <Redb3ard> assuming that the supreme court was unaffected
[10:20] <Redb3ard> teh executive branch wouldnt have the opportunity to use congress's absence as a chance to play
[10:20] <Redb3ard> so i doubt martial law would be enacted
[10:20] <toad_> maybe
[10:20] <Redb3ard> but im not sure
[10:20] * d-ArkAngel heads back to the saner less speculative waters of real life
[10:20] <toad_> anyway what's your point?
[10:20] <Redb3ard> how is that saner?
[10:21] <Redb3ard> seriously
[10:21] <toad_> that if OBL had only killed politicians, that he'd have had more sympathy in the US? maybe he doesn't want sympathy?
[10:21] <Redb3ard> our country is being run by the most corrupt people in the entire nation
[10:21] <Redb3ard> idiots and fools who do more harm than good
[10:21] <toad_> heh, no way to tell that really
[10:21] <toad_> re corruption
[10:21] <Redb3ard> its a fair assumption
[10:21] <Redb3ard> the less corrupt dont get elected as often
[10:22] <Redb3ard> the cheaters succeed
[10:22] <toad_> the less rich don't get elected as often
[10:22] <toad_> but the problem is not that the rich buy the election, it's that PEOPLE VOTE FOR THEM
[10:22] <toad_> change the people and you can change the government
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[10:23] <toad_> if not, there's not much you can do
[10:23] <Redb3ard> toad, tell me if this list is comprehensive
[10:23] <Redb3ard> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanet#Security
[10:23] * toad_ points to #freenet-politics...
[10:23] <Redb3ard> does that have about all the attackers that freenet might see?
[10:23] <toad_> hmmm
[10:23] <toad_> I don't know
[10:23] <toad_> anyone have any others?
[10:24] <toad_> i'm not sure about the order either
[10:24] <Redb3ard> that seemed to be pretty close
[10:24] <toad_> FBI is probably less motivated, but more capable, than RIAA, in terms of direct action
[10:24] <Redb3ard> well, 3-5 i just kept together, because it was all law enforcement
[10:25] <Redb3ard> 1 and 2, im not sure how much threat either pose, if at all
[10:25] <toad_> lol @ description on #7
[10:25] <Redb3ard> 7 seems like it should be dangerous, but unless im in tinfoilhat mode, i cant imagine them giving a shit
[10:25] <toad_> they do, sometimes
[10:25] <toad_> oh I got one
[10:25] <toad_> there are different kinds of corporations
[10:25] <toad_> MPAA, RIAA are one class
[10:26] <toad_> but Scientology is another
[10:26] <toad_> and Diebold is a third
[10:26] <Redb3ard> hmm
[10:26] <Redb3ard> do they each deserve their own category?
[10:26] <toad_> you can lump them together if you like
[10:26] <toad_> but there are significantly different concerns
[10:26] <Redb3ard> btw, you guys are free to use this list of course... i just didnt want to screw with someone else's freenet wiki page
[10:27] <toad_> e.g. Diebold is one smallish company, they can sue individuals.. but they're not The Man
[10:27] <Redb3ard> scientology might deserve its own category, except that i can think of no others that would belong to it
[10:27] <Redb3ard> RIAA, MPAA are industry associations
[10:27] <toad_> I'd list Co$ under corporates, probably
[10:27] <Redb3ard> technically corporations, but not run at a profit
[10:27] <toad_> well they represent corps
[10:28] <Redb3ard> a #1 actually can pose a danger, now that i think about it
[10:28] <toad_> anyway it's a fair bet that NSA can beat freenet, metanet or just about anything else
[10:28] <toad_> just have to crack all the machines :)
[10:28] <toad_> yes, stalkers ARE an issue
[10:28] <Redb3ard> assuming that they can guess that their target is on freenet/metanet/whatever, they can report that to authorities
[10:29] <toad_> they can take direct action against freenet to trace the target
[10:29] <Redb3ard> "hey, he's trading kiddy porn on freenet"
[10:29] <toad_> once they find his RLID, they just blackmail him
[10:29] <toad_> or report him
[10:29] <toad_> or whatever
[10:29] <toad_> depending on what they want from him
[10:29] <Redb3ard> #2's need alot of technical skill to do anything, though
[10:29] <toad_> anyway, there's another kind of law enforcement
[10:29] <Redb3ard> and you're right about the NSA
[10:30] <Redb3ard> but I think that #7s have no reason currently
[10:30] <toad_> inept censorship authorities in nice places like china or saudi
[10:30] <Redb3ard> maybe they will in the future
[10:30] <toad_> and their techies, who may not be so inept, as they get more funding
[10:30] <toad_> well, it depends how much we piss off the chinese, in the long term
[10:30] <toad_> :)
[10:30] <toad_> there could be some #7 action there
[10:30] <Redb3ard> hmmm
[10:31] <toad_> but Big Gov would probably like to be able to trace terrorists who use freenet too
[10:31] <toad_> some of that will be #5
[10:31] <toad_> a lot of it will be #5
[10:31] <toad_> but some of it might be #7
[10:31] <Redb3ard> in the US, i think they'd task the #7s to trace terrorist freenet usage
[10:31] <Redb3ard> not so much the FBI
[10:31] <toad_> very likely, yeah
[10:31] <Redb3ard> they're on the shit list, currently
[10:32] <toad_> also terrorist-like targets :)
[10:32] <toad_> such as government whistleblowers :)
[10:32] <Redb3ard> haha
[10:32] <Redb3ard> isnt everything they dont like now terrorism?
[10:32] <Redb3ard> you know what i hate?
[10:32] <toad_> also organized crime, and big-corps-doing-things-they-ought-not-to-without-telling-us, which is more or less the same thing...
[10:32] <Redb3ard> them going on about terrorists taking out power plants and such
[10:32] <Redb3ard> where is the terror in that?
[10:33] <Redb3ard> its more like inconveniencism
[10:33] <toad_> Redb3ard: a 747 into the high level storage tank in sellafield. THAT's terror.
[10:33] <Redb3ard> those damn inconvenienists! now i cant watch American Idol!
[10:33] <toad_> but a jet into ANY nuclear power plant would be a serious problem
[10:33] <Redb3ard> heh
[10:33] <Redb3ard> ive read that theres more danger that theyd hit the waste storage
[10:34] <toad_> as far as coal plants go, it's economic warfare; if you can do it cheaply, coordinated, and widespread, it's viable as a terrorist model
[10:34] <Redb3ard> the reactor itself just doesnt have enough material to cause much damage
[10:34] <toad_> Redb3ard: that's what I said above
[10:34] <toad_> hit sellafield with a 747, you write off the UK
[10:34] <toad_> essentially
[10:34] <Redb3ard> sellafield is nuclear?
[10:34] <toad_> hit Hansard with a nuke you do the same thing
[10:34] <toad_> with the US
[10:34] <toad_> well not quite
[10:34] <Redb3ard> ;) i dont know the names of but a few nuke plants here, let alone over there
[10:34] <toad_> yeah, sellafield is the place we put all our (civilian) nuclear shit
[10:35] <toad_> MAJOR reprocessing plant
[10:35] <toad_> has had all sorts of fun over the years
[10:35] <toad_> Hansard is where the US puts its military nuke waste
[10:35] <Redb3ard> you guys probably still have nuclear landmines all over teh place, just in case the russians show up
[10:35] <Redb3ard> ;)
[10:35] <toad_> the fun thing about sellafield is the high level tanks, which have to be constantly liquid cooled, and are above ground
[10:35] <toad_> nuclear landmines?
[10:35] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) has joined #FreeNet
[10:36] <toad_> i've heard of such things but surely they were never deployed..
[10:36] <Redb3ard> well, not landmines, really
[10:36] <Redb3ard> hard to call something that weighs 27 tons a landmine
[10:36] <toad_> anyway, we're way off topic (and I suspect they have serious defences at these sites such that anything short of a cruise missile with a nuke warhead wouldn't get through)
[10:36] <Redb3ard> i think you guys had 2 of them, but they were dismantled in the 60s
[10:36] <Redb3ard> and sorry to take it so far off topic
[10:36] <toad_> regular nuke plants, on the other hand; there are zillions of them
[10:37] <toad_> they can't protect them adequately at a reasonable cost
[10:37] <toad_> :)
[10:37] <toad_> well maybe they can
[10:37] <Redb3ard> ill tell you how to not protect them
[10:37] <Redb3ard> you invent reasons to invade a non-threat arab nation
[10:37] <toad_> be
[10:37] <toad_> hehe
[10:38] <toad_> don't get started on iraq now
[10:38] <toad_> :)
[10:38] <toad_> that's for #freenet-politics (and I have work to do today!!)
[10:38] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[10:38] <toad_> anyway I believe I explained my position on that previously
[10:39] <toad_> bbl
[10:40] <d-ArkAngel> toad_ what did you think of the formular I worked out about the newbie peer balanceing... can you think of any other factors that would effect that?
[10:40] <toad_> well, you CAN talk iraq, .. but only on #freenet-politics, okay
[10:40] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: what formula?
[10:41] <d-ArkAngel> Chance of connection < 1 / (peers * newbie age)
[10:41] <toad_> ahh
[10:41] <toad_> no idea, haven't thought about it much
[10:41] <toad_> it doesn't take into account the number of connections
[10:41] <toad_> in a given period
[10:41] <toad_> it'd sucj
[10:42] <toad_> but there may be other options
[10:42] <toad_> but lets make something deterministic first
[10:42] <d-ArkAngel> "peers" is the number of peer connections...
[10:42] <toad_> maybe we can change that later
[10:42] <toad_> yes, and?
[10:42] <toad_> there are N connection requests in a 1 hour period
[10:42] <toad_> N can vary.. a lot..
[10:42] <toad_> if N is high enough, then we'll get a ton of conns with that formula
[10:42] <d-ArkAngel> ahh I see as in the requests coming in...
[10:42] <d-ArkAngel> sorry
[10:43] <d-ArkAngel> I see what you mean...
[10:43] <toad_> these are conn attempts or StoreData targets
[10:44] * toad_ thinks there's something in the pre-connect-protocol idea, especially if a) you can use it to bypass NATs if one side is open, and b) you can eliminate unnecessary StoreData estimators transfer when the connection isn't going to be made anyway and thus reduce request overhead significantly
[10:44] <toad_> anyway bbiab
[10:45] <toad_> maybe 30 mins, probably less
[10:45] <d-ArkAngel> one side open nats are pretty rare these days, most people know how to setup a port forward (the benefits of file shareing networks I guess :-) )
[10:51] <toad_> i'm not sure about that; and i mean one side in the connection
[10:51] <toad_> we might even be able to do simultaneous connect...
[10:51] <toad_> and make it work with both sides natted
[10:55] * skr (~skr@pcp0010577437pcs.coatsv01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving")
[10:59] <d-ArkAngel> would be hard to work with TCP (not sure if all routers would like such a connection attempt, and not sure how the TCP handshakes would work...)
[10:59] <Redb3ard> hey toad, where do you foresee freenet 10 years from now?
[10:59] <toad_> Redb3ard: working, and banned
[10:59] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[10:59] <Redb3ard> heh
[10:59] <Redb3ard> shorter answer than i was expecting, but not a bad one
[11:01] <Redb3ard> hmm
[11:06] <toad_> well there's two options
[11:06] <toad_> well 3
[11:06] <toad_> 1. it works really well and revolutionises the internet. 2. it works moderately to really well and is banned. 3. it doesn't work and is ignored.
[11:06] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("Visit http://CyberLore.net for recommendations on the best games, websites and freeware. Don't settle for anything else!")
[11:07] <toad_> w.r.t. 1, i'm not just talking free speech here, although that is pretty important
[11:07] <toad_> a lot of people have problems with hosting - especially hosting large files
[11:07] <Redb3ard> i guess i was asking more what you thought the protocol would be like
[11:07] <Redb3ard> and less the social aspects
[11:07] <toad_> :)
[11:08] <toad_> that i don't know
[11:08] <toad_> if i knew, i'd implement it :)
[11:08] <toad_> in the medium term, smaller, fixed size blocks may be a way forward
[11:08] <toad_> in the long term, possibly post 1.0, after it more or less works re routing, there's lots of possibilities e.g. passive requests
[11:09] <toad_> but fixed size blocks may have anon consequences
[11:09] <toad_> bbiab
[11:09] <hobx_> ah, the magic land of post 1.0
[11:10] <toad_> hobx_: ;)
[11:10] <Redb3ard> how can fixed size requests cause anonymity issues?
[11:10] <toad_> Redb3ard: files are split into more files
[11:10] <hobx_> also known as Lala
[11:10] <Redb3ard> seems like it would be the opposite, intuitively
[11:10] <toad_> if you are requesting more files, correlation attacks are easier
[11:10] <hobx_> it is also a really bad idea.
[11:10] <toad_> yes, there are traffic analysis advantages, as well as routing, but there are costs too
[11:10] <hobx_> For any number of reasons. Completely unecessary and being done for the completely wrong reasons.
[11:11] <toad_> hobx_: ah, so you've found a way to extract more information from a single request?
[11:11] <hobx_> I must return to my students.
[11:11] <toad_> THE reason for fixed size keys is so that the network learns faster
[11:11] <toad_> but there's big stuff to look at before we start to look seriously at fixed size data
[11:12] <toad_> e.g. the newbie issue i pointed out recently
[11:12] <toad_> bbiab
[11:14] <Redb3ard> i keep hoping for some science fiction tech to be discovered, myself
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[11:53] * nextgens (~toto@d80-170-238-71.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[11:53] <nextgens> hi
[11:54] <d-ArkAngel> hullo
[11:54] <Redb3ard> ok, i just have to do the klingon translation for this...
[11:55] <Redb3ard> the word for anonymity is the same one for "cloaking device"
[11:56] <toad_> heh
[11:56] <toad_> Redb3ard: no, that would be bad.. especially quantum computers could seriously f*ck us up
[11:56] <toad_> why are you translating the page into klingon?
[11:56] <plixed_> that's the meaning of the word anonymity, disguise you identity
[11:57] <toad_> how many fictitious languages are you fluent in?
[11:57] <plixed_> your
[11:57] <toad_> and have you considered elvish? :)
[11:57] * nextgens looking for a gmail account (invitation)
[11:57] <toad_> hi
[11:58] <Redb3ard> wikipedia doesnt have an elvish version
[11:58] <Redb3ard> but they do have klingon
[11:58] <toad_> why not?
[11:58] <toad_> that's annoying
[11:58] <Redb3ard> beats me
[11:58] <Redb3ard> quantum computers might seriously fuck things up, i agree
[11:58] <plixed_> how about a translatio to "newspeak"? ;)
[11:58] <Redb3ard> but they could also allow for anonymity in ways we dont even imagine yet
[11:59] <toad_> plixed_: easy; CRIMETHINK
[11:59] <toad_> delete the whole page and just put in red block capitals :)
[11:59] <Redb3ard> there are no words for describing freenet in newspeak 10th edition
[11:59] <toad_> Redb3ard: well, I'm not hopeful for public key quantum crypto
[11:59] <Redb3ard> doubleplusungood
[11:59] <toad_> it'll take a LONG time to develop that, if it's even possible
[11:59] <toad_> Redb3ard: 20th edition
[11:59] <Redb3ard> thats the whole article, right there in one word
[11:59] <toad_> only 2 words
[12:00] <toad_> ingsoc and crimethink
[12:00] <Redb3ard> crimethink isnt in the 10th addition
[12:00] <Redb3ard> its doubleplusungoodthink
[12:00] <Redb3ard> i dont think even that will be in the 11th
[12:00] <toad_> read the appendix
[12:01] <toad_> again
[12:01] <Redb3ard> a newspeak wikipedia doesnt make alot of sense anyway
[12:03] <toad_> Freenet is a cloaking device for the internet..
[12:03] <toad_> not bad
[12:04] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[12:04] <plixed_> not really, more a cloaking device for content
[12:04] <toad_> yeah
[12:09] * nextgens writing a bash script to "wget" this : http://isnoop.net/gmailomatic.php
[12:11] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (Read error: 242 (No route to host))
[12:12] <toad_> ahem
[12:12] <toad_> what do you want to get from it?
[12:12] <toad_> "If you would like to request an invite, simply submit your email in the following form:"
[12:13] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[12:13] <toad_> woah
[12:13] <toad_> 1,838 non-digested members, 243 digested members, and 9 private members, on announce
[12:14] <toad_> ~ 450 members total on support
[12:14] <toad_> ~ 320 on devl
[12:14] <toad_> 130 on tech
[12:15] <toad_> 55 on CVS
[12:15] <toad_> and 190 on chat
[12:18] <d-ArkAngel> I'm on devel and tech
[12:19] <d-ArkAngel> not users tho (do I miss anything interesting developer wise?)
[12:19] <mikeDOTd> toad_: woah as in, that's more than you expected or less?
[12:25] * toad_ sets announce to reject all nonmember posts...
[12:25] <toad_> and hold all other posts
[12:40] <sanity> looks like arafat may have died
[12:49] <d-ArkAngel> such is the nature of life.
[12:51] * mikeDOTd cheers power vacuums
[12:53] <d-ArkAngel> to be fair it's Israeli TV who have made the claims that he's "brain dead" which has since been denied by the paris hospital... tho as always there may be newer news that that :-)
[12:53] <mikeDOTd> cnn is reporting that he's in a coma
[12:54] <d-ArkAngel> the BBC is saying there's "conflicting reports" about if he's in a coma.
[12:54] <mikeDOTd> i'd trust the bbc before cnn :-)
[12:54] <d-ArkAngel> that was posted about 6 min ago
[13:01] <toad_> |The spokesman told reporters that Arafat is not dead. :)
[13:01] <toad_> hmm, transferred to another facility after a brain-scan..
[13:02] <d-ArkAngel> there are many shades of grey involved in the word "dead" these days :-)
[13:02] <d-ArkAngel> anyway. I'm off home. catch you all later on.
[13:02] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:09] <toad_> well, they're obviously not completely convinced
[13:09] <toad_> if they were, there'd be fireworks in israel..
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[15:30] <jepel_tailweaver> wb Toast
[15:30] <Toast> Hi jepel
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[17:33] <jepel_tailweaver> wb Gunnar
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[19:51] <toad_> hmmm
[19:51] <toad_> the tcp_win_scale thing no longer works on 2.6.9
[19:51] <toad_> anyone know what greycat's web (not free) site is called?
[19:55] <plixed> http://wooledge.org/~greg/index2.html
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[20:34] <KenMan> this is curious - another 1000x20 sim with the DS doubled - shows the same pattern, but lower key redundancy and slighyly lower success. Avg HTL for success goes down again.
[20:34] * Zorix (Brandon@fl-198-70-222-58.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[20:37] <KenMan> stddev of load per node rises, implying that 'hot paths' have become more common (traffic gets concentrated onto fewer nodes).
[20:42] <KenMan> so we still haven't solved the newbie/turnover troubles yet, huh ? I built a rule that says, "no new conns unless at least 50% are experienced peers," but it looks like peers typically get the boot immediately after becoming experienced...
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[20:58] * jay` (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[20:58] <jepel_tailweaver> hey jay`
[20:58] * jay` is now known as jay
[20:58] <jay> hi
[21:22] <KenMan> "no new conns unless at least 50% are experienced peers" equates to maintain a 50/50 balance.
[21:22] <jepel_tailweaver> hey KenMan
[21:23] <KenMan> hello
[21:27] <jepel_tailweaver> thanks for reminding me to start my freenode node
[21:27] <jepel_tailweaver> *freenet
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[21:38] <jepel_tailweaver> hey Big_Mamma
[21:38] <Big_Mamma> booink?
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.