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[5:52] <emacsen> In just two hours the nightmare will be over.... Or just beginning
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[10:00] <KenMan> toad_ - you was right. But I had to prove it to myself - peersLRU maintenance works fine as is.
[10:03] <KenMan> changing peersLRUexperienced to only .push() on success makes little or no difference... still running comparisons.
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[11:13] <KenMan> strange, the 1000 node config with dynamic connections doesn't seem to show much improvement over static connections... hmmm
[11:14] <KenMan> it is a very clear difference at 100 and 200 node configs.
[11:15] <KenMan> I suppose, with 1000 nodes, the sim may need to run 5-10 times as many requests to offer a fair comparison.
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[11:54] <KenMan> wb Hirvo
[11:57] <Hirvo1> hi
[11:58] <Hirvo1> is someone (someone@cannabismail.com) around? I need to get more information about his bug report
[11:58] * Hirvo1 is now known as Hirvox
[11:59] <Hirvox> my bind-FNP-to-ipAddress-only code should fall back to binding to 0.0.0.0 when necessary
[12:01] <Hirvox> I just checked it with a local node, which bound to a DNS ipAddress properly
[12:02] <Hirvox> and when I changed ipAddress to a bogus DNS name, it fell back to binding to 0.0.0.0 like it should
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[13:15] <lolo-laptop> Hirvox: what if IP address is set but is set to an IP that doesn't belong to the machine?
[13:15] <lolo-laptop> (12 minutes later)
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[13:26] <B4rr37> c
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[13:34] <toad_> what's a good GPG keyserver?
[13:35] <greycat> /topic #gnupg
[13:38] <hobx_> they let you put your keys in the topic of their channel!
[13:40] <toad_> LOL
[13:44] <Redb3ard> toad, ive been wondering myself
[13:44] <Redb3ard> let me know, if you figure it out?
[13:45] <toad_> Redb3ard: subkeys.pgp.net
[13:45] <toad_> according to #gnupg
[13:46] <Redb3ard> oh, you meant to use
[13:46] <Redb3ard> i want to install my own ;)
[13:46] <Redb3ard> cant find a software package to do it
[13:49] <toad_> huh?
[13:49] <toad_> what do you want to install? a keyserver? hmmm
[13:49] <toad_> no idea
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[14:07] <toad_> Redb3ard: suggest you contact the people who run keyservers
[14:07] <psycho8me> hey everybody, my node load is over 140%, is that bad?
[14:07] <toad_> k
[14:07] <toad_> oops
[14:07] <toad_> psycho8me: constantly, over a long period, it is
[14:07] <toad_> psycho8me: it should average out to 100%
[14:08] <psycho8me> What does the load number mean? Can I fix it?
[14:08] <greycat> # Global mean traffic per node (queries per hour): 7211.106
[14:08] <greycat> # Global median traffic per node (queries per hour): 3700.000
[14:08] <greycat> that's quite a discrepancy
[14:09] <toad_> psycho8me: it should fix itself
[14:09] <psycho8me> ok thanks
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[14:11] <toad_> bbl
[14:12] <psycho8me> Public key encryption is fun
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[14:37] <PasDNick> evening all
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[14:48] * pitouche_ >>> Auto-op est suspendu...
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[14:54] <greycat> Smoothed local mean traffic (queries per hour): 11551.439
[14:54] <greycat> # Global mean traffic per node (queries per hour): 8117.094
[14:54] <greycat> # Global median traffic per node (queries per hour): 4125.000
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[15:31] <d-ArkAngel> hi all
[15:31] <jepel_tailweaver> hey d-ArkAngel
[15:32] <Redb3ard> hey jepel, we have a few more translations
[15:32] <jepel_tailweaver> nice, Red
[15:34] <Redb3ard> have you checked it out?
[15:35] <jepel_tailweaver> I only speak English and French. I'll check the updates on the English page, and see if anyone's changed the french page
[15:36] * avatar8888 (~allemann4@pD9E1F0FC.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #freenet
[15:36] <Redb3ard> check the "in other languages" on the english page
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[15:36] <jepel_tailweaver> the list is huge
[15:37] <jepel_tailweaver> damn
[15:37] <Redb3ard> haha
[15:37] <jepel_tailweaver> when will people stop saying MI6 and start saying SIS?
[15:37] <Redb3ard> hey, i only used that because it links to another wikipedia article
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[15:39] <jepel_tailweaver> ok
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[15:59] <jepel_tailweaver> hey Hory
[16:03] * michaelkuijn (~michaelku@fia41-111.dsl.hccnet.nl) has joined #freenet
[16:03] <jepel_tailweaver> hey michaelkuijn
[16:04] <michaelkuijn> Hi
[16:04] <michaelkuijn> Do I know you?
[16:04] <jepel_tailweaver> no, I dont' think so
[16:04] <jepel_tailweaver> I always greet random people on IRC
[16:04] <michaelkuijn> That's nice
[16:05] <michaelkuijn> BUUUUURP
[16:05] <michaelkuijn> Ahh, that hit the spot
[16:05] <jepel_tailweaver> that wasn't
[16:05] <jepel_tailweaver> please don't burp on IRC
[16:05] <michaelkuijn> Gotta love Bitter Kas
[16:05] <jepel_tailweaver> Bitter Kas?
[16:05] <michaelkuijn> (http://www.ciao.es/Kas_27603_5)
[16:05] <michaelkuijn> It's a spanish (?) soft dring, something like carbonated cough syrup
[16:06] <d-ArkAngel> I always worry about asking "Do I know you?", it either means that I've forgotten someone that I should remember, or leaves me open to someone playing silly buggers :-)
[16:06] <jepel_tailweaver> Cough syrup is disgusting. Benylin actually has a kind of minty aftertaste to it that doesn't want to go away
[16:06] <jepel_tailweaver> lol @ d-ArkAngel
[16:07] <michaelkuijn> That's interesting... Makes me think of my girfriend registering new MSN names and playing tricks on me
[16:07] <jepel_tailweaver> a friend of mine always did that
[16:07] <jepel_tailweaver> she'd register random names and act like J. Random Person
[16:07] <michaelkuijn> She's cute, but can be a great pain in the back
[16:07] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[16:07] <jepel_tailweaver> girls are like that a lot
[16:08] * jepel_tailweaver goes over to check freenet
[16:08] <michaelkuijn> Let's see how fast the news spreads... Have you heard about Theo van Gogh ?
[16:09] <jepel_tailweaver> Theo van Gogh? the only Theo I know is the OpenBSD guy
[16:09] <Redb3ard> de raadt
[16:09] <jepel_tailweaver> yes
[16:09] <michaelkuijn> (Not to be confused with the brother of the famous painter)
[16:09] <jepel_tailweaver> I forgot van Gogh's first name anyway
[16:10] <michaelkuijn> It's Vincent
[16:10] <Redb3ard> vincent
[16:10] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[16:10] <michaelkuijn> Mmm. What does "Internic Commercial" mean anyway ?
[16:10] <jepel_tailweaver> I dont' know
[16:10] <jepel_tailweaver> I live in Canada
[16:10] <d-ArkAngel> An Advert for the company Internic?
[16:11] <michaelkuijn> Dunno
[16:11] <Redb3ard> internic was the old orginization in charge of domain registration
[16:11] <Redb3ard> now theres icann
[16:11] <michaelkuijn> And what about Verisign? (Makes me think of the wildcarding debacle I never understood)
[16:11] <jepel_tailweaver> After leaving it on for about 20 hours, Freenet is already fast enough to be usable
[16:11] <Redb3ard> verisign owned internic?
[16:11] <Redb3ard> cant remember
[16:12] <jepel_tailweaver> icann isn't that great, but they didn't take it up the ass from verizon during the site finder debacle, IIRC
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[16:12] <Redb3ard> jepel, ps ax | grep java | wc -l
[16:12] <jepel_tailweaver> wb cbreak
[16:12] <michaelkuijn> Ha
[16:12] <d-ArkAngel> verisign are the ones who do SSL certs aren't they?
[16:12] <jepel_tailweaver> Redb3ard, 93
[16:12] <michaelkuijn> Amongst other things, I suppose
[16:12] <jepel_tailweaver> d-ArkAngel, yes
[16:13] <Redb3ard> jepel, thats pretty low
[16:13] <cbreak> Hi.
[16:13] <d-ArkAngel> hullo
[16:13] <michaelkuijn> Ave
[16:13] * michaelkuijn pisses pants - "This plugin has known problems on some hardware due to alsa bugs"
[16:14] <michaelkuijn> When I am not running frost, do I miss messages that are sent during that time?
[16:15] <cbreak> no
[16:15] <michaelkuijn> A frost board is like a freesite, right?
[16:15] <cbreak> but that depends on the number of days you search backwards
[16:15] <cbreak> it is more like a collection of keys with predictable names.
[16:15] <michaelkuijn> Oh, that reminds me. Does anyone have the privkey of 'successful' ?
[16:16] <michaelkuijn> Ha! 1670 songs, 4 days, 9 hours and 0 minutes, 8.8 GiB
[16:16] <cbreak> the board? SSK@SoURyG1vDr0q5yFfy74-zI5Vy80
[16:16] <michaelkuijn> Thx
[16:16] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:17] <michaelkuijn> Rhythmbox crashed again... this is a huge pain
[16:17] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2311.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:26] <michaelkuijn> Not much life in here lately
[16:28] <jepel_tailweaver> yes, it's quite quiet in here
[16:28] <jepel_tailweaver> wonder how long it will be before my freenet node will be usable
[16:28] <cbreak> as usual... maybe most usians are voting...
[16:29] * d-ArkAngel wishes to hear no more about the US elections... I bet they don't get this much crap on their media when we have elections....
[16:29] <jepel_tailweaver> what country are you in, d-ArkAngel?
[16:29] <d-ArkAngel> England
[16:29] <cbreak> most likely not. I am just wondering why they chose a thuesday to vote.
[16:30] <d-ArkAngel> got something against tuesdays? :-)
[16:30] <cbreak> a saturday or sunday would be more convenient...
[16:30] <cbreak> (like, no work...)
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[16:31] <d-ArkAngel> the lawyers would probably want overtime for working the weekend (given the crazy legal armies that have been discussed as waiting to pounce)
[16:31] <michaelkuijn> jepel_tailweaver, do a full refresh in FROST and your connections will go through the ROOF
[16:31] <jepel_tailweaver> michaelkuijn, in Frost? I dont' think I have frost
[16:32] <michaelkuijn> jepel_tailweaver, you run a freenode, but no frost?
[16:32] <jepel_tailweaver> michaelkuijn, I just installed freenet yesterday
[16:32] <cbreak> frost is a quite demanding program, it causes freenet to integrate fast.
[16:33] <jepel_tailweaver> ahh
[16:33] <cbreak> well... but maybe it just causes an overload :)
[16:33] <michaelkuijn> Google for "JTC FROST"
[16:34] <jepel_tailweaver> Firefox just screwed up the Frost Web site
[16:34] <michaelkuijn> Mmm. My 14 GiB datastore is full! 55976 keys and counting
[16:34] <jepel_tailweaver> 14 GiB? wow
[16:34] <michaelkuijn> It's not that much
[16:35] <jepel_tailweaver> I don't have that kind of space to spare
[16:35] <PasDNick> michaelkuijn: still no "non-responding node" after a few running hours ?
[16:35] <michaelkuijn> PasDNick, excuse me?
[16:35] <PasDNick> michaelkuijn: i was asking you if your node can run more than 10-12 hours, with such a big datastore
[16:35] <d-ArkAngel> GiB = gigabit right?
[16:36] <PasDNick> mine will stop sending/receiving datas after a few hours
[16:36] <michaelkuijn> 2 ^ 30 bytes
[16:36] <michaelkuijn> Never had any trouble with that
[16:36] <PasDNick> michaelkuijn: ok
[16:36] <michaelkuijn> I have a 2.66 P4 (w/o HT) with 512 MB RAM, and a 120 GB HDD.
[16:36] <d-ArkAngel> I thought little b was bytes and big was Bits.... *shrug*
[16:37] <michaelkuijn> The new Systeme International standards
[16:37] <jepel_tailweaver> d-ArkAngel, other way around. Kbps ->kilobits, KBps ->kilobytes
[16:37] <jepel_tailweaver> Systeme Internationale
[16:38] <michaelkuijn> hapi, this is funny http://www.slowdown.co.uk/how_to_stop_email_viruses_spreading.htm
[16:39] <michaelkuijn> hapi?
[16:39] <michaelkuijn> X-Chat is acting up
[16:40] <michaelkuijn> Gee, I'd be really happy if I had a cigar right now
[16:41] * cbreak sends michaelkuijn a virtual chewing gum
[16:41] <michaelkuijn> I don't do gum
[16:41] <michaelkuijn> Besides, I don't smoke cigars for the nicotine...
[16:42] <cbreak> gum is not for nicotine, its for the taste and the chewing :)
[16:42] <michaelkuijn> I see
[16:42] <michaelkuijn> I'm afraid nothing can replace the tasty bouquet of a nice cigar
[16:43] <d-ArkAngel> and for the he sticking in girls hair...
[16:43] <jepel_tailweaver> I just downloaded Frost
[16:43] <jepel_tailweaver> it's pretty sweet
[16:43] <michaelkuijn> Good
[16:44] <michaelkuijn> I'm weird. 16 years old. Neurotic. Depressed most of the time. ...and crazy about cigars
[16:45] <michaelkuijn> Oh, and guns o' course
[16:45] <michaelkuijn> Yesh, cigars and guns
[16:45] <jepel_tailweaver> "Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency"
[16:45] * kers_ (kers@213.78.68.78) has joined #freenet
[16:46] <michaelkuijn> "...cigarettes are great, if you can get over the fact that they taste like hot snake piss." -- seen at a Slashdot posting
[16:46] <michaelkuijn> That got me on the flooor
[16:47] <michaelkuijn> Cigars, however, are a different story
[16:47] * michaelkuijn gets something to eat
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[16:58] <jepel_tailweaver> how do I do a full refresh in Frost?
[16:59] <cbreak> frost should auto download messages from the default boards.
[17:00] <jepel_tailweaver> <michaelkuijn> jepel_tailweaver, do a full refresh in FROST and your connections will go through the ROOF
[17:00] <jepel_tailweaver> apparantly there is a way to force it
[17:00] <cbreak> you could click on the blue i and then on the button with the label "Update all"
[17:02] <michaelkuijn> No, right click on the highest level in the tree and choose update from the context menu
[17:07] <kers> has toad been alive today?
[17:08] * kers (kers@213.78.68.78) Quit ("Leaving")
[17:11] <d-ArkAngel> back in 5
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[17:14] <jepel_tailweaver> wb d-ArkAngel
[17:14] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[17:15] <michaelkuijn> see you all
[17:15] <michaelkuijn> g'night
[17:15] * michaelkuijn (~michaelku@fia41-111.dsl.hccnet.nl) Quit ()
[17:15] <d-ArkAngel> c ya
[17:15] <cbreak> I wonder if that's a script...
[17:15] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
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[17:27] <PasDNick> jepel_tailweaver: [frost boards update] you can also turn "auto refresh" on in the 'boards' menu, frost will then cycle and update all boards
[17:34] <jepel_tailweaver> PasDNick, thanks
[17:34] <jepel_tailweaver> PasDNick, you use Freenet a lot?
[17:34] <PasDNick> jepel_tailweaver: i use it from time to time, but finally ..
[17:34] <PasDNick> i couldn't found anything useful in it
[17:35] <PasDNick> from time to time, i restart my node for a few weeks, and try to see how freenet's health is
[17:36] <Ribs> That's the thing about Freenet
[17:36] <Ribs> It's great technology, but 99% of the content is complete shit
[17:37] <jepel_tailweaver> I wouldn't say it's *great* technology. Useful, maybe
[17:37] <PasDNick> yep, i totally agree with you Ribs
[17:38] <jepel_tailweaver> 99% of all content is shit
[17:39] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: Which becomes an issue when the network is so small
[17:39] <Ribs> a la Freenet
[17:41] <d-ArkAngel> 99% of the internet's content is shit too, there's just a lot more volume, and better searching :-)
[17:41] <Ribs> it was due to that, and the moral arguement that I stopped running my node yesterday
[17:42] <jepel_tailweaver> moral argument?
[17:42] <Ribs> child porn, etc. on the network
[17:42] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
[17:43] <Ribs> I don't believe my bandwidth should be used by pedofiles, basically.
[17:43] <jepel_tailweaver> one of the things that I'm not so hot about on Freenet is that there's absolutely no way for someone to get punished for sick shit like child porn or rape porn
[17:44] <jepel_tailweaver> now, an anonymous network where people were connected through others, and their peers could shut them down...
[17:44] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: exactly, it's free speach, but at a cost
[17:44] <Ribs> The only content I was really interested in, was stuff I could get on the
[17:44] <d-ArkAngel> that's life
[17:44] <Ribs> 'regaulr' network anyway
[17:44] <jepel_tailweaver> there always comes that question...where to draw the line?
[17:44] <Ribs> 'regular', rather
[17:45] <d-ArkAngel> most people who are prosecuted for such things are under investigation for other reasons.
[17:45] <Ribs> most...
[17:46] <Ribs> The majority of pedo cases you hear about in the UK are people being caught because of Internet activity
[17:46] <Ribs> obviously these pedofiles didn't hear of Freenet, so thankfully, they got caught
[17:46] <jepel_tailweaver> as long as we pay for Internet access, we can be traced
[17:46] <jepel_tailweaver> and yeh, anyone who'd do that kind of stuff to a child *deserves* the gov dropping on them like a ton of bricks
[17:47] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, the people that have been caught in the UK are not caught by their internet usage...
[17:47] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: A lot of them are.
[17:47] <d-ArkAngel> they're caught because they are investigated or flaged by either "traps" or association with others involved, and then monitored at their point of access
[17:47] <Ribs> if the media is to be believed, anyway
[17:47] <Ribs> BT is blocking a shocking 10,000 access attempts to child porn sites every day
[17:48] <Ribs> imagine what that would be if all ISPs did it
[17:48] <jepel_tailweaver> it's a really slippery slope
[17:48] <jepel_tailweaver> once you block child porn, should you block rape porn? bestiality? bondage? teen? eventually you could block everything
[17:48] <Ribs> I hear some ISPs are plain refusing to route to the servers
[17:49] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: True
[17:49] * goatee_ (~goatee@ip216-239-88-78.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[17:49] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: But not everyone suffers in porn
[17:49] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: People get paid to do porn, it's a profession
[17:49] <jepel_tailweaver> Ribs, true. Some people enjoy that stuff
[17:49] <Ribs> jepel_tailweaver: However, in child porn, the people 'featureing' in that stuff do not get paid
[17:49] <Ribs> they get hurt
[17:49] <d-ArkAngel> Here's a statement that'll upset you.
[17:50] <jepel_tailweaver> Ribs, true, very true
[17:50] <d-ArkAngel> Any form of monitoring and blocking is imposing your standards of morality on others
[17:50] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: And why is that so bad?
[17:50] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: Why should I stand by and let child porn prosper because of 'free speech'?
[17:50] <d-ArkAngel> we live in a society that dose that with laws. but ISP's and Hosting co's are now doing it on their own
[17:50] <Ribs> Free speech is a very, very, thin excuse for such things
[17:51] <d-ArkAngel> ok, how about music tradeing?
[17:51] <d-ArkAngel> or how about development of cheats for computer games?
[17:51] <d-ArkAngel> I've seen sites shutdown for both of those.
[17:52] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: Sadly, nothing is black and white
[17:52] <Ribs> I wish it were
[17:52] <d-ArkAngel> the choise is that we either trust them to decide what's right and wrong for us, or we allow freedom and have to deal with our own morality
[17:53] <d-ArkAngel> I feel quite happy to run a freenet node, and as long as I'm not requesting anything that I object to then I don't feel that I'm spreading it.
[17:54] <d-ArkAngel> I'm contributing space and bandwidth to freenet, not to any specific usage.
[17:54] <jepel_tailweaver> intersting POV, d-ArkAngel
[17:55] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: What about that key specialisation?
[17:55] <d-ArkAngel> if I don't request it and I request other things then my participation is recucing the spread since it icreases the popularity (and therfor replications) of the "moral" sites in relation to total network content
[17:55] <Ribs> maybe your node is holding child porn
[17:55] <Ribs> maybe you are spreading it
[17:55] <Ribs> and you're not even aware of it
[17:56] <d-ArkAngel> key specilisation doesn't mean content specilisation
[17:56] <jepel_tailweaver> Ribs, that's another thing with freenet. Just running a node means you're forwarding and caching all sorts of stuff
[17:56] <d-ArkAngel> there will be no node that specilises in one thing or another....
[17:57] <cbreak> without the decryption key, all a node is spreading is noise. well, more or less :)
[17:57] <d-ArkAngel> that's the way it's designed to scale... every block of data has an equal chance of being on any given node based on the popularity
[17:58] <d-ArkAngel> just because your node holds index.htm doesn't mean that any of the image files will even have passed through your node...
[17:59] <d-ArkAngel> and even if by some random chance my node happens to cache every single bit of child porn on freenet, I still don't see it as me contributing to the problem. I'm contributing to the network, and the people inserting and retrieving the files are the ones who are part of the problem.
[18:01] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:02] <d-ArkAngel> making it harder for people to exchange such information by a given medium doesn't help solve the problems of the individuals that are doing it, that's a much wider problem. There are all sorts of arguments you can use for and against freenet in this way, but I do see it as a way to allow society to be self regulating, freenet holds and discards data totally by popularity.
[18:03] <jepel_tailweaver> d-ArkAngel, Score: 5, Insightful
[18:03] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: Your arguement is compelling.
[18:03] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: But to me, the moral dilema is simply too much
[18:03] <d-ArkAngel> If as a whole we are a community of people who are on average not interested in that kind of material then it won't be stored in freenet.
[18:05] <d-ArkAngel> and the more people that say they won't run a node because it holds "bad" content only sway the ratio of people good vs bad people on freenet towards the "bad" end of the spectrum (note good and bad are not absolute and that's not what I meant by those descriptions)
[18:05] <Ribs> d-ArkAngel: Then so be it. Call me a coward if you want...
[18:05] <d-ArkAngel> not at all :-)
[18:05] <Ribs> But I'm no martar (sp?) for the cause
[18:06] <Ribs> I'm the kinda guy who likes to jump on the bandwagan
[18:06] <d-ArkAngel> indeed, I'm not judgeing you as an individual, I'm just stateing the way things will develop based on peoples usage.
[18:07] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-84-24.vif.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[18:08] <d-ArkAngel> what will probably happen is that freenet will develop to a point where people will be able to attain fast access to popular content, then the MP3/XVID people will migrate over (or to some other equivelent system) and the % usages will shift very quickly to wards more normal high volume usages.
[18:09] <d-ArkAngel> at the moment freenet is still a very fringe system, no matter how many nodes geeks are running, but as it finds other markets things will start to clean up.
[18:09] <d-ArkAngel> also there's no reason why someone could run a service to stop nodes cacheing content that is centrally blacklisted somehow.
[18:09] <Ribs> I even heard someon suggest creating a virus which installs Freenet on the victim computer
[18:09] <Ribs> which was a cute idea, if nothing else.
[18:10] <cbreak> a virus should be small and efficient...
[18:10] <d-ArkAngel> cbreak: ...with a highly destructive payload
[18:11] <orange_> cbreak: =)
[18:11] <Ribs> nothing stopping a virus downloading the freenet.jar and creating some config files
[18:11] <Ribs> it just needs a jre, which most Windows machines have
[18:11] <Ribs> then you're laughing
[18:11] <cbreak> well... most virus writers seem to forget the payload... :/
[18:11] <Ribs> cbreak: Never again, eh? ;)
[18:12] <cbreak> I am just disapointed at the lack of creativity the current virus authors show...
[18:12] <cbreak> something like CIH, SQL Slammer... those where cool...
[18:13] <d-ArkAngel> at the moment freenets aims are to ensure privacy and security. Social responsibility will probably come up as a discussion after it's "working" and scales well enough to be rolled out en mass
[18:13] <cbreak> but the x th iteration of beagle... it's just sad...
[18:13] <d-ArkAngel> and yet people keep falling for them...
[18:14] <cbreak> yes... but not because the viri are smart, but because the people aren't...
[18:14] <d-ArkAngel> indeed, but that's the way everyone codes ins't it? so that it "just works"tm
[18:15] <d-ArkAngel> it's just easier to exploit idiots than operating systems
[18:15] <Ribs> What about Operating System coded by idiots? :)
[18:16] <d-ArkAngel> human nature is open source and never gets patched.
[18:18] <KenMan> toad_ you haven't said much today or yesterday. How can we know if you are earning your keep ;)
[18:18] * KenMan is just curious to observe the toad's behavior...
[18:20] <KenMan> Curious, with dynamic connections, the 1000x20 config still shows (slowly) decreasing success, even after 70M requests...
[18:21] <plixed> <d-ArkAngel> also there's no reason why someone could run a service to stop nodes cacheing content that is centrally blacklisted somehow.
[18:21] <plixed> ?
[18:22] <plixed> a freespeech system with integrated censor mechanism?
[18:22] <plixed> sounds like a contradiction in terms ;)
[18:22] <d-ArkAngel> you could easily hack a node to allow you to force it to retrun DNF for a given key
[18:23] <d-ArkAngel> and if you keep a list of "objectionablt content" then you can block those keys
[18:23] <plixed> who decides what is "objectionable"?
[18:23] <d-ArkAngel> that's the thing. it would be the person suppling the list/hacked node that would decide.
[18:24] <jepel_tailweaver> what if you had a distributed classification?
[18:24] <d-ArkAngel> just the same as when people install parental controls software.
[18:24] <d-ArkAngel> it's down to them to select the one that they agree with in terms of content blocking.
[18:24] <jepel_tailweaver> for example, if something is tagged "sexually explicit/pornography" you can choose to block all pornography, or certain type of pornography
[18:25] <d-ArkAngel> how would you trust that clasification?
[18:25] <plixed> it still sounds like a complete contradiction to the design specification for freenet ;)
[18:25] <jepel_tailweaver> web of trust / pki / rating
[18:26] <jepel_tailweaver> plixed, I'm not endorsing any kind of censorship, I'm just outlining possibilities
[18:26] <d-ArkAngel> it would be "popularity" but the node organisation would probably prevent such organisations from blocking content from existing, as it requests would eventualy get accepted by nodes that are not "censorted" and nodes would only connect to nodes that had the same or less censortship than themselves...
[18:27] <jepel_tailweaver> I think preventing content from existing is something to avoid
[18:27] <plixed> the idea of freenet is that you don't know what is in the keys, if you let censorship happen, you step away from that idea and say you *know* whats in certain keys
[18:27] <jepel_tailweaver> plixed, exactly
[18:27] <plixed> then you can help responsible for certain keys on your node
[18:28] <plixed> goodbye freenet
[18:28] <d-ArkAngel> I'm not saying I'm for such an idea, but such a blacklist could be constructed by people in freenet given the current desing regardless
[18:30] <d-ArkAngel> if there is popular demand in freenet's end user community there's no reason it couldn't be done without us being involved.
[18:31] <plixed> and this will be the end of freenet, because if can help responsible for "objectionable" content you can help responsible for other content too like copyrighted or anti-goverment content
[18:34] <d-ArkAngel> only assuming that there would be somone willing to maintain such a list...
[18:34] <cbreak> RIAA would...
[18:35] <d-ArkAngel> how easy would it be to change a single bit and change the key in a MP3 without changing the content. how many possible MD5 Sums can one MP3 have that all sound identical...
[18:36] <jepel_tailweaver> d-ArkAngel, infinite
[18:36] <d-ArkAngel> you could have a list twice the size of a MP3 for just one file.
[18:37] <cbreak> d-ArkAngel: Use the power of ID3 -> not even lenth could be used
[18:38] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[18:38] <d-ArkAngel> so given the size of interest in shareing MP3's and other content the RIAA wants to block their list size would be prohibitivly large, and therfor legaly unenforcable.
[18:41] <d-ArkAngel> but it would be entrily possible for people to try and do these things, even if it's almost impossible to actually do them. the distuption caused in small comunites of users, by larger communities of users would be measurable.
[18:42] <orange_> hi all. fred freezes for me all the time (web and fcp interface stop to respond). i have to restart it at least once a day. this started 3-4 stable builds back. i'm i the only one with this problem..?
[18:42] <d-ArkAngel> no I had that problem too.
[18:43] <d-ArkAngel> the way I solved it was to put limits on the bandwidth usage... at a certain point it seems to have stoped having the problem
[18:43] <d-ArkAngel> that's not so much a solution as a work arround tho
[18:44] <orange_> ok.. i have bw limits. have not changed them for a long time.
[18:44] <orange_> inputBandwidthLimit=20000
[18:45] <orange_> outputBandwidthLimit=20000
[18:45] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:45] <d-ArkAngel> what speed internet connection do you have?
[18:45] <orange_> 512 kbit
[18:45] <d-ArkAngel> you know that the numbers you have entered are in kbytes not bits yeah?
[18:46] <orange_> yeah :)
[18:46] <d-ArkAngel> what upload speed do you have? 128kbit or 256kbit?
[18:47] <orange_> same as download
[18:47] <d-ArkAngel> symetric? nice.
[18:47] <orange_> yep
[18:47] <d-ArkAngel> well you could try lowering them to 10000 and see if that helps you node stay up.
[18:47] <orange_> ok. i'll try that.
[18:48] <d-ArkAngel> anything is worth a try. as I say you're not the first person I've seen having this trouble, and this change might not stop the problem as much as slow it down so it happens less often :-)
[18:48] <cbreak> hmm... a new explorer bug...
[18:49] <orange_> ok. i?m glad to hear i?m not alone. :)
[18:49] * orange_ hopes the real cause is fixed soon.
[18:50] <d-ArkAngel> it's probably some cneaky memory leak somewhere or something else silly like that. who knows :-)
[18:50] <cbreak> java has a gc. unless there is a bug, you should not have memory leaks.
[18:50] * sanity (~ian@81-178-109-149.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:51] <d-ArkAngel> gc doesn't prevent a bug in code from eating up all the memory...
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[18:52] <d-ArkAngel> could be some crazy infinately long linked list somewhere.
[18:52] <plixed> my nodes stopped working when i it had only the default 128 mb ram, try giving it more (i gave the jvm 384 mb)
[18:53] <orange_> i have -Xmx256m in start-freenet.sh ( i only have 256..)
[18:53] <d-ArkAngel> I don't have any memory to give mine tho, hence the lowering the bandwidth solution :-)
[18:53] <cbreak> My node is killed once a day anyway :)
[18:55] * orange_ makes a cronjob to restart fred once a day
[18:56] <cbreak> that cronjob could compare the installed version to the latest and update when possible :)
[18:56] * sanity (~ian@81-178-109-149.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[18:57] <orange_> actually i already have one that does that. :) i will modify it to _always_ restart fred, regardless of if freenet.jar was updated or not
[18:58] <cbreak> have to get some sleep, bye
[18:58] <orange_> but first i will see if the bw settings change have effect...
[18:58] <orange_> bye
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[19:02] <orange_> have to go. thanks for the input. bye
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[20:00] <xbit_> my freenetnode has been up for almost two days and it's still unusable :/
[20:00] * salahx (salahx@sc1-24.217.174.29.charter-stl.com) has joined #freenet
[20:01] <xbit_> just getting "Couldnt retrieve key", or terribly slow loading sites...
[20:02] <KenMan> ouch: running a 1000 node simulation with static vs. dynamic connections shows the dynamic one losing, with slightly lower success (15.5% vs 16% static)
[20:03] <Redb3ard> kenman, why 1000 nodes, and not 992?
[20:03] <Redb3ard> or 1065?
[20:03] <Redb3ard> why are you such an integer bigot?
[20:03] <Redb3ard> why not 1000.1 nodes?
[20:03] <KenMan> oh i don't know, i often do 'weird' things like that. But I didn't this time.
[20:03] <Redb3ard> or 500 3/4 nodes?
[20:03] <d-ArkAngel> with newbie connections or not?
[20:04] <KenMan> i used the 'nonewbie' option, but nodes are still protected for a 'newbie' period of time
[20:04] <KenMan> it is called 'inexperienced' vs 'experienced' in toads source
[20:05] <Redb3ard> heh
[20:05] <d-ArkAngel> you seen the conversation toad has been talking about, with the bugs in that kicking the most experianced nodes most of the time?
[20:05] <Redb3ard> p0wnzerd vs. bandwidth-hog
[20:05] <Redb3ard> ;)
[20:05] <KenMan> yes. I do not experience that situation. For every 10000 unique requests, only about 10-20 new connections are established. I played with that part of the code.
[20:06] <KenMan> well, actually, i don't know if those 10-20 are the most experienced nodes.
[20:06] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[20:06] <KenMan> but the connection turnover rate is 'low' in my book
[20:06] <d-ArkAngel> how many inter connects do you have?
[20:07] <KenMan> the only way I can see that happening is if turnover was too high
[20:07] <KenMan> this one is 1000 x 20 peers x 8 HTL x 50 datastore keys
[20:08] <KenMan> i ran it for 5,6,7,8,10 HTL . Success was higher and key redundancy was lower as HTL increased. But the general patterns were identical
[20:09] <KenMan> as 10 HTL results in twice the traffic of 5 HTL, the curves reached the same point at different times. But their shapes were the same.
[20:10] <d-ArkAngel> isn't 10 - 20 a huge number of new connections then?
[20:10] <KenMan> no, these runs were with static conns anyway
[20:10] <d-ArkAngel> given that there are 20000 peers in the system that all have to age before they can be removed...
[20:11] <KenMan> I can guarantee that I don't have the problem toad described, because I added an extra check - you must have more experienced nodes than inexp ones before a new connection can happen.
[20:11] <d-ArkAngel> interesting...
[20:11] <KenMan> what he described was that as soon as a node became experienced, it got dropped for the next one. Hmm, actually that is not a gaurantee, but it helps.
[20:12] <KenMan> who can spell guaranty for me ?
[20:12] <d-ArkAngel> gaurentee
[20:12] <d-ArkAngel> ?
[20:12] <KenMan> tank you :)
[20:13] <d-ArkAngel> you didn't say it had to be spelled correctly did you? :-)
[20:13] <KenMan> wait, gnome dict says "gaurantee" :p
[20:14] <KenMan> no , it says "Guarantee" ... sorry. I've typed it correctly at least once, anyway :o
[20:14] <d-ArkAngel> damn thoes e's and a's. it's a conspiracy I tells you!!!
[20:16] <KenMan> mebbe there is still a trouble with 10-20 new conns every 10k reqs - 10k/1000nodes means a new conn every 10 reqs on average. Yecch
[20:16] <KenMan> no wait, i don't do the math right.
[20:17] <KenMan> 10 per cycle, means each node only gets a new conn every 100 cycles, right ? (incorrectly assuming a uniform distribution)
[20:17] <KenMan> i mean, it averages out that way, anyways
[20:18] <KenMan> 100 cycles x 10K requests = 1M requests / 1000 nodes. So averages to about 1 new conn every 1000 reqs. I think that is okay.
[20:18] <d-ArkAngel> it's not 10k/1000 it's 10k/(1000 * 20)
[20:18] <KenMan> well, you focus on links, i focus on nodes ;)
[20:18] <KenMan> and buckets only make it worse...
[20:19] <d-ArkAngel> but it's the age of the links that changes newbie. not the age of the node.
[20:19] <KenMan> true, but the two are not independent :)
[20:20] <d-ArkAngel> on the plus side each request generates on average HTL/2 route reqests...
[20:20] <KenMan> yeah, that's right. Except I run sims with low success, so it really does generate close to HTL*reqs load :(
[20:22] <d-ArkAngel> so on average each node see's 8,000,000/1,000 requests = 8,000 which it routs over 20 connections
[20:22] <d-ArkAngel> so that's 400 requests per peer over the life of the network.
[20:22] <KenMan> that's not very good, if you did that right :(
[20:23] <KenMan> what is the 8M figure again ? 8HTL * 10000 reqs * ???
[20:23] <d-ArkAngel> that's for a million requests, not ten thousand.
[20:23] <KenMan> do you run sims that end at one million or something ?
[20:24] <d-ArkAngel> you said you had 100 cycles....
[20:24] <KenMan> oh, sorry. To be honest, I don't know why I picked that number... hmm !
[20:24] <d-ArkAngel> per cycle each peer on averave only sees 4 requests.
[20:25] <KenMan> yeah. keep it simple (for me) , heh
[20:25] <d-ArkAngel> what is your newbie threshold set at? 200 like toads?
[20:25] <KenMan> oh yeah - but each node goes for 100 cycles before changing any conn
[20:26] <KenMan> it should be 200, i didn't change that
[20:27] <KenMan> I was pleased to see a constant success level in 100 and 200 node configs, but dynamic conns don't seem to be helping at the 1000 level...
[20:27] <d-ArkAngel> so all the peers should be expereinced.... then we have a slow creep as the bottom half of the routing table are swaped out for inexperienced peers (up to your limit) at which point each node takes 50 cycles to (on average) gain enough requests to become experienced...
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[20:28] <KenMan> i like the way you are phrasing this, it helps
[20:29] <d-ArkAngel> what is the % chance that you add a new node to the routeing table when you meet it?
[20:29] <KenMan> hell, i don't know. It is very low, i believe
[20:29] <KenMan> I changed all the outputs. I could start logging that, i suppose !
[20:30] <KenMan> when i first enabled dyn-conns, there were too many going on, so I added that check to ensure at least half the table was experienced before any conns change
[20:30] <d-ArkAngel> it might be worth listing how many inexpreienced peers there are when you add a new connection...
[20:30] <KenMan> yes, just to check my work.
[20:31] <KenMan> oh, and it might tell us... what ? if turnover is still too high ?
[20:31] <d-ArkAngel> yes...
[20:32] <KenMan> like, if it sits and stays at 50% exp and 50% inexp. I would hope that inexp would go down %wise
[20:32] <d-ArkAngel> yes
[20:32] <KenMan> good idea.
[20:32] <KenMan> Sure enough, i can now spot the assumption I made when I coded that :p
[20:33] <d-ArkAngel> toads solution is to only allow changes when all nodes are expreienced, but it would be nice for the system to gravitate to that solution.
[20:33] <KenMan> agreed
[20:34] <d-ArkAngel> but I think that is to do with the balance between the number of requests per peer, the age limit on a newbie peer, and the % chance of connecting to the data source.
[20:34] <KenMan> he'll never get that in the real network, mRI makes things far too imbalanced. One holdout node with an mRI of 1Mms will screw the whole thing.
[20:34] <d-ArkAngel> hmm, yeah and it leads to a DOS
[20:35] <d-ArkAngel> since you could just get your self added to peoples route tbales and then just stop them incremeniting their experience count for you by refusing connections...
[20:35] <KenMan> (200 * 16minutes) minimum time required, assuming full utilization. Hey, you used the magic word toad needs to see in order to act on what you say (DOS)
[20:36] <d-ArkAngel> but that's not relevant to the simulation.
[20:37] <KenMan> well, he should be allowed a (finite) period of time to stick his head in the simulation sandbox.
[20:37] <KenMan> heehee
[20:37] <d-ArkAngel> I think that we can balance it in the real network based on reasonable variables.
[20:37] <KenMan> yes, i hope so.
[20:38] <d-ArkAngel> plus we can use timeouts, whereas the sim is all about doing things as fast as possible.
[20:38] <KenMan> anyway, i value long-lived connections. They have the most accurate estimation possible, unless the target runs faster than a deer
[20:39] <d-ArkAngel> there is a downside to that.
[20:39] <KenMan> two ways to view the situation - preserve the peers with the best record, or force a spreading of the sampling
[20:40] <KenMan> neither one must be absolute, but they are two different goals
[20:40] <d-ArkAngel> if you don't use your node for 2 days say, and it just sits running then it only gets requests that match it's estimators from it's locals, so it specilises, but it also specilises it's RT too.
[20:40] <d-ArkAngel> so then you have less ability to route to sections of the keyspace you don't specilise in.
[20:42] <d-ArkAngel> which means we're essentialy random routing untill we get near enough to the target to show up in someones estimators..
[20:42] <KenMan> i have trouble with spec beyond having a single gravity point in keyspace. I mean, if we have 16 buckets per peer, with 200 peers, how can there possibly be an aggregate spec that has any gravity to it ??
[20:42] <d-ArkAngel> so you need a decent connection turn over to couteract that, unless you have a more complex peer selection protocol.
[20:43] <KenMan> I can almost fathom having a single spec point per link...
[20:43] <d-ArkAngel> gravity over time
[20:43] <kers> uhm. check this out
[20:43] <kers> Current probability of a request succeeding 1.4%
[20:43] <kers> by routing
[20:43] <kers> Current probability of an inbound request 1.2%
[20:43] <kers> causing a transfer outwards
[20:43] <kers> Current target (best case single node) 2.9%
[20:43] <kers> probability of a request succeeding
[20:43] <kers>
[20:43] <kers> thats not very good huh?
[20:44] <KenMan> that is not bad, based on past experience...
[20:44] <kers> ah, ok
[20:44] <kers> this is a pretty fresh node with bandwith capping enabled, i thougth that the settings was too low
[20:45] <d-ArkAngel> you only have a finite amount of storage on your local node. so if you've got requests coming in, one point in your keyspace is bound to be slightly higher than all others, simply by random chance.
[20:45] <d-ArkAngel> so the theory is that over a long enough time line you sould end up with a network full of nodes with a single specilisation peak that is agreed upon by all it's peers
[20:48] <KenMan> I am in big trouble if I don't find some Chloraseptic, FAST
[20:49] <KenMan> i believe specialization when I see it, and we have seen it, recently. But does it ever last ?
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> the network is so unstable at the moment who knows :-)
[20:50] * kers (kers@213.78.172.203) Quit ("Leaving")
[20:52] <KenMan> hey, i thought kers has been aroudn for years and years. He should have known 2.9% succes would be 'rockin' by FN standards...
[20:52] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
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[21:18] <emacsen> hi all
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[21:46] <Fluten> hello
[21:46] <Fluten> exactly how long does it take to get good speeds?
[21:47] <Fluten> upon from starting using freenet
[21:47] <Fluten> since i've had it running for about a day now, and the load time has gone down from 3 minutes, to around 2 minutes
[21:47] <jepel_tailweaver> At least two days, I think
[21:48] <Fluten> also, does having 6KB/sec allocated as upload help the network much?
[21:48] <Redb3ard> hey jepel
[21:48] <Fluten> and would a 1GB store be good for that rate?
[21:53] <KenMan> the two are not that related. The more store you can provide, the better. 6KB is pretty weak - 10KB/s is supposed to be the average
[21:53] <KenMan> you can reduce the size of the routing table, sometimes that helps with lesser bandwidth
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[21:54] <KenMan> good evening, b... have you remembered to vote today ?
[21:55] <Fluten> just have 6 so my isp doesn't get mad at me
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[21:55] <Fluten> for the bandwidth usage
[21:55] <Fluten> and i also have 4KB reserved for gnutella
[21:56] <Fluten> so probably 10KB/sec total anyways
[21:58] <Fluten> or is that what averageOutputBandwidthLimit is for?
[21:59] <Fluten> such as could i put a limit there in bytes of the max i want transfered in a week?
[21:59] <Fluten> and then crank it up to 10
[21:59] <Fluten> (since the conf file mentions no unit, or is bytes always default?)
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.