Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[4:24] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aai99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[5:16] * Naked_ (naked@naked.iki.fi) has joined #freenet
[5:16] * Naked_ is now known as Hadaka
[5:16] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) has joined #freenet
[6:04] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[6:55] * kers (~kers@h180n1fls33o873.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[7:18] * sanity (~ian@81-178-76-180.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[7:24] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-197-136.dclient.hispeed.ch) has joined #freenet
[8:44] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[9:19] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-4024215a.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit ("Going to the moon")
[9:57] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) has joined #freenet
[10:00] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) has joined #freenet
[10:00] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) has joined #freenet
[10:51] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-082-082-157-133.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[11:14] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aai99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[11:26] * hobx_ (~chatzilla@ankh.math.chalmers.se) has joined #freenet
[11:26] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[11:27] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) has joined #freenet
[11:28] * hirvox (~hirvox@cs181027153.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[11:29] <toad_> hmmm
[11:29] <toad_> PC froze for several minutes... then it came back...
[11:29] <toad_> after starting a simulation
[11:29] <toad_> which seems to have crashed
[11:30] <hobx_> bad ram
[11:30] <toad_> there seems to have been some OOM-killer activity...
[11:30] <toad_> the reloaded simulations explode, getting very very slow and using tons of RAM
[11:30] <toad_> it might just be that.. memory leak perhaps
[11:42] * toad_ (toad@82-32-16-91.cable.ubr03.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:43] * toad_ (toad@82-32-16-91.cable.ubr03.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[11:44] <toad_> hmmm
[11:57] <d-ArkAngel> are the changes on the cvs copy?
[11:59] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@170.252.64.1) has joined #freenet
[11:59] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@170.252.64.1) has left #freenet
[11:59] <toad_> hmmmm
[11:59] <toad_> is it a JVM problem?
[12:00] <toad_> I've added a bunch of GCing, and although serializing is REALLY slow, memory usage seems reasonable... certainly not enough to cause the OOM-killer to kick in
[12:00] <toad_> therefore... perhaps it's a JVM problem?
[12:01] <toad_> usually it cuts out around 600 nodes
[12:01] <toad_> hangs the whole machine for a while, and when it comes back all java processes have been killed by the oomkiller
[12:02] <toad_> it's up to 490, and it's reasonably consistent 300kB/node read...
[12:02] <toad_> well 400kB
[12:02] <toad_> something like that
[12:05] <toad_> 540 nodes, 200MB of RAM used..
[12:09] <toad_> 600 nodes, <220MB...
[12:11] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[12:14] <d-ArkAngel> maybe it'd benefit if you added a yeild() here and there (I'm right in thinking that the GC runs in it's own low priority thread right?)
[12:30] * kevloral (~kevloral@CZ1-RAS-8-u-0138.du.onolab.com) has joined #freenet
[12:31] <kevloral> g'afternoon all
[12:34] * hirvox (~hirvox@cs181027153.pp.htv.fi) has joined #freenet
[12:34] * toad_ (toad@82-32-16-91.cable.ubr03.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 232 (Connection reset by peer))
[12:46] * spaetz (~spaetz@217-162-197-136.dclient.hispeed.ch) Quit (Read error: 238 (Connection timed out))
[13:04] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@213-131-104-86.onyx.net) has left #freenet
[13:32] * gino (1000@host124-182.pool8288.interbusiness.it) has joined #freenet
[13:34] * gino (1000@host124-182.pool8288.interbusiness.it) Quit (Client Quit)
[13:40] * gino (1000@host124-182.pool8288.interbusiness.it) has joined #freenet
[13:42] * gino (1000@host124-182.pool8288.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Leaving")
[13:50] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #freenet
[13:53] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-082-082-157-133.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:54] * toad_ (toad@82-32-16-91.cable.ubr03.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[13:57] <toad_> odd
[13:57] <toad_> looks like it was a kernel bug for once
[13:57] <toad_> (not a jvm bug, and not a my-coding bug masquerading as one of the above)
[14:00] <toad_> of course there's a my-bug too :)
[14:01] <toad_> point 2: these simulations use a bucketload of ram...
[14:01] <toad_> 718 nodes read in (of 800), and 262MB of RAM used so far
[14:08] <toad_> 291,393,072 bytes used after serializing in all 800 nodes...
[14:10] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[14:10] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-082-082-158-227.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[14:12] <toad_> bbl
[14:12] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) has joined #FreeNet
[14:15] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[14:16] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[14:24] * sanity (~ian@81-178-76-180.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ()
[14:50] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #freenet
[14:51] <d-ArkAngel> Hi all
[15:09] <ShaunMacPherson> hi
[15:18] <d-ArkAngel> anyone in that has done a lot of reading around encryption?
[15:24] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-109-235.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[15:25] <nextgens> hi all
[15:25] <d-ArkAngel> hi
[15:28] * nextgens is happy : his node doesn't seems to be in a bad mood anymore :-) ... and he didn't change anything!
[15:29] <nextgens> d-ArkAngel: what kind of encryption do you need info. on?
[15:34] <d-ArkAngel> well I'm looking for a way of storeing very short sequences of numbers (phone numbers) in an insecure SQL server
[15:34] <greycat> and the catch is...?
[15:35] <d-ArkAngel> the access to the SQL server is insecure OS of the server (lots of legacy poor code that'll take forever to replace)
[15:35] <nextgens> What's the most important to your mind ? strong security/heavy CPU usage or medium security/low cpu usage
[15:36] <d-ArkAngel> security
[15:36] <nextgens> not for a website?
[15:36] <d-ArkAngel> it's input via a website, but will be viewed (and decrypted) via client tools on machines inside the company.
[15:37] <d-ArkAngel> my main concern is that I'm aware that short message of known formats do have implications against security of some encryption methods.
[15:37] <nextgens> have a look at 'asymetrics' cyphers
[15:37] <greycat> s/phone numbers/CC numbers/ isn't it? ;-)
[15:38] <nextgens> and don't forget to add some padding ...
[15:38] <d-ArkAngel> well there will be CC numbers down the line, but at the moment it's just phone numbers
[15:38] <greycat> symmetric ciphers are out, because then the secret key would have to be inside the automated program that encrypts the data. So as nextgens said, you're stuck using an asymmetric one.
[15:38] <d-ArkAngel> yes, my main question is would just sticking an amount of high entropy random data arround the data
[15:39] <d-ArkAngel> be enough to counter attacks against the fixed scope of the data
[15:40] <nextgens> the entropy of the padding data isn't that much important ...
[15:40] <d-ArkAngel> no?
[15:40] <nextgens> adding it just make it longer to break
[15:41] <nextgens> and asymmetric implementations uses symmetric keys to reduce CPU usage...
[15:41] <nextgens> I dunno if I'm clear enough ; sorry English isn't my language
[15:42] <d-ArkAngel> I've been looking at using some of the newer algols that seem to have higher thresholds for computation, such as Eliptic Curve
[15:42] <d-ArkAngel> nextgens: it's damn good english
[15:43] <nextgens> I don't think you need a such as level of security...
[15:43] <greycat> your english is clear enough for me
[15:43] <d-ArkAngel> and I thought this group was full of paranoid people :-)
[15:43] <greycat> asymmetric ciphers generally generate a random symmetric-cipher key and then encrypt that asymmetrically.
[15:44] <greycat> encrypting the whole message asymmetrically would be prohibitively expensive
[15:44] <d-ArkAngel> but the message is smaller than an average key...
[15:44] <nextgens> and strong cryptographic alorithms are FAR better when tested enough than newer...
[15:44] <nextgens> greycat: what I'd like to say :-)
[15:45] <d-ArkAngel> true enough I suppose.
[15:46] <nextgens> (20:45:43) d-ArkAngel: but the message is smaller than an average key...
[15:46] <nextgens> just add more padding ;-)
[15:47] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, I meant so it'd be ok to directly use asymetic rather than using symetic random key inside an asymetric "wrapper"
[15:47] <nextgens> why not
[15:47] <d-ArkAngel> So I could just append say 1024 bytes of data to the message and then use an asymmetric cypher?
[15:47] <nextgens> but ADD padding...
[15:47] <nextgens> yes
[15:48] <d-ArkAngel> and just reading a bunch of data from /dev/urandom would be enough for that yes?
[15:48] <nextgens> yes ... try simple cyphers such as RSA
[15:48] <nextgens> it should be ok
[15:48] <d-ArkAngel> ok thanks.
[15:48] <nextgens> BUT it will be VERY time consuming
[15:49] <d-ArkAngel> what will?
[15:49] <d-ArkAngel> the encryption? or codeing it?
[15:49] <nextgens> both and decoding even more (priv. is greater than pub.)
[15:51] <d-ArkAngel> decodeing shouldn't be a problem resource wise, lots of nice new machines for the girls in the offices who'll be using the tool once it's done are on order (they were using some really horrible beat up machines that couldn't cope with the virus checkers they had installed let alone running MS word as well
[15:52] <nextgens> lol
[15:52] <d-ArkAngel> (my secret plan is to convert all the tools to java based applications, then do a sneak linux invasion ;-) )
[15:53] <greycat> sounds familiar.
[15:53] * nextgens wondering how much resource Longhorn will need
[15:54] <d-ArkAngel> It will need as much resources as the OEM's that sell machines with it on have. Let's face it, hardly anyone upgraded to windows XP when it was released, and those that did were coming from 98/ME I doubt there'll be many people upgading
[15:56] <greycat> most people never upgrade their windows installations. They just get a new computer with a new version on it.
[15:56] * nextgens hopping that 5096 won't require 512Mb of RAM ;-)
[15:57] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[15:57] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aai99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Read error: 232 (Connection reset by peer))
[15:58] <d-ArkAngel> it won't be long before people think nothing of 512Mb of ram
[15:58] <nextgens> sorry, 5097
[15:58] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aai99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[15:58] <d-ArkAngel> hell gfx cards have that much on some of them these days
[16:04] * setre (~jussi@h136n1fls301o291.telia.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:05] * setre (~jussi@h136n1fls301o291.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[16:08] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-109-235.cust.tele2.fr) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:59] <i2p_iip_> <newsbyte> toad, you here?
[17:01] * jay (~jcl@198.38.10.200) has joined #freenet
[17:37] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aai99.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[17:37] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aay115.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[17:42] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
[17:55] * kers (~kers@h180n1fls33o873.telia.com) Quit ("Leaving")
[18:03] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:04] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
[18:14] * kers (~kers@h180n1fls33o873.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[18:15] <Ash-Fox> Rofl > Hmmm, one of the main reasons I switched TO Firefox is because IE crashes every time I try to close it. It then pops up its "I've crashed" window, with a click OK to restart IE button. Means closing IE is a multi-stage process for me.
[18:28] * Hory (~Miranda@82.76.81.56) Quit ("Visit http://CyberLore.net for recommendations on the best games, websites and freeware. Don't settle for anything else!")
[18:31] * jay (~jcl@198.38.10.200) Quit (".")
[18:56] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:02] * plixed_ (~plixed@pD9E25CFE.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #freenet
[19:06] * sanity (~ian@81-178-76-180.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[19:07] * plixed (~plixed@p50823588.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[19:07] <toad_> Ash-Fox: ;)
[19:09] <Ash-Fox> toad_, just curious, I would like to make a publically accessable freenet node, however I'd like to deny users the ability to download files (as in .zip/mpg etc..), is there any method at the moment that allows one todo that?
[19:10] <toad_> nextgens wondering how much resource Longhorn will - well, firstly, it'll need DRM capable hardware from the CPU to the monitor. it'll need a LOT of hardware.
[19:10] <toad_> <i2p_iip_> <newsbyte> toad, you here? - yeah...
[19:11] <toad_> Ash-Fox: no
[19:11] <toad_> Ash-Fox: you can achieve that via proxying though
[19:11] <Redb3ard> could almost certainly configure squid to do that
[19:11] <toad_> but why would you want to? bandwidth preservation?
[19:12] <Ash-Fox> toad_, pretty much
[19:12] <toad_> NOT legal reasons... because some of the most illegal stuff is just JPEGs
[19:13] <Redb3ard> jpegs are illegal, theyre patented
[19:13] <Ash-Fox> toad_, I don't want people to browse some freesite that go "oh, I can download movies" then they click on some movie file.. and.. blah
[19:13] <Redb3ard> and patent infringement is terrorism!
[19:13] <toad_> Ash-Fox: huh?
[19:13] <toad_> Ash-Fox: they're more likely to get the movie than the site
[19:13] <Ash-Fox> Redb3ard, uh.. JPEG has expired patents, and so dies gifs
[19:13] <toad_> JPEG2K is patented
[19:14] <toad_> regular JPEG is okay. I know this because tons of free software implements it and there haven't been any big problems so far...
[19:14] * Ash-Fox wounders who uses JPEG2K anyway
[19:14] <toad_> nobody, thanks to the patent :)
[19:14] <toad_> actually i think progressive jpegs are covered too
[19:16] <Redb3ard> um
[19:16] <Redb3ard> even if the patents have expired, someone else will patent it
[19:16] <Ash-Fox> Redb3ard, when patents expire, they're in the open, there is nothing to patent
[19:17] <Ash-Fox> Redb3ard, patents is only to keep the method/idea of something specifically closed for a certain amount of time, for the company/person who created the idea to profit off
[19:17] <Redb3ard> heh
[19:17] <Redb3ard> seems someone doesnt understand modern patentry
[19:17] <toad_> in theory
[19:17] <toad_> in practice you have two options
[19:17] <Redb3ard> just because someone else has patented it, or that there has been prior art for 50 years means nothing
[19:18] <toad_> 1. patent something when there is blatant prior art and carefully don't threaten anyone who has the funds to fight it.
[19:18] <Ash-Fox> well, in practice, alot of companies used patents to sue other companies
[19:18] <toad_> 2. release a new file format.
[19:18] <toad_> and exploit your monopoly to get fools to use it
[19:18] <toad_> see M$
[19:18] <toad_> bbl
[19:18] <Ash-Fox> M$ has sued people over patents?
[19:19] <toad_> aieeeeeeeeeeeeeee http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/11/freedman1104.asp
[19:19] <Ash-Fox> I've seen on copyright infringement
[19:19] <toad_> yet another fscking micro-internal-combustion-engine design... blech
[19:19] <toad_> Ash-Fox: overlapping patents on Office file formats
[19:19] <Ash-Fox> toad_, I read that earlier on slashdot :P
[19:19] <toad_> Ash-Fox: see the EU judgement
[19:19] <toad_> Ash-Fox: which doesn't cover free software, because it required RAND not RF licensing :<
[19:20] <toad_> bbl
[19:20] * Ash-Fox doesn't see how opensource software can infringe on software patents
[19:21] <Redb3ard> either me or toad needs to mainstream anon networks somehow
[19:21] <Redb3ard> and everyone can develop linux there
[19:21] <Redb3ard> then it wont matter
[19:21] <Ash-Fox> People aren't interested in Anonymity, people are interested in Anonymous illegal filesharing
[19:22] <Redb3ard> im interested in it
[19:22] <Ash-Fox> While I like freenet, and I like the idea of anonymity, I don't like the fact that most people use freenet for illegal filesharing practices
[19:22] <Redb3ard> anyone with 1/8th of a brain should be, too
[19:23] <Redb3ard> heh
[19:23] <Ash-Fox> I believe in freespeech, but.. illegal copies of software? I don't really see that as free speech
[19:23] <Redb3ard> you'd like my network then... we're using it to see how badly we can screw up qmail configs, actually
[19:23] <Redb3ard> ;)
[19:24] <Redb3ard> i used to be pissed that my isp wouldnt let me run a mailserver... now that ive actually tried, im not sure i care anymore
[19:25] <Ash-Fox> Redb3ard, if you want, I can run a mailbag for your domain or such, and forward all the e-mail to you on a non-standard port for smtp
[19:26] <Redb3ard> not a problem, thanks though
[19:27] <Redb3ard> i dont think my problems are on my end, but the other guys mailservers
[19:30] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@195.157.199.85) has joined #freenet
[19:30] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@195.157.199.85) has left #freenet
[19:51] <toad_> lol
[19:52] <toad_> Ash-Fox: who decides what is free speech? you can't say that a 600MB file is necessarily not "free speech", for example
[19:52] <toad_> freenet is about freedom of data publication and reception
[20:02] <Redb3ard> not according to some of the trolls on slashdot ;)
[20:02] <toad_> that's their problem
[20:02] <toad_> anyway the point: freenet's vision of freedom of speech is necessarily defined mechanistically
[20:02] <Redb3ard> im only kidding, you know
[20:02] <toad_> it's freedom of DATA
[20:03] <Redb3ard> some kiddyporners use printing presses
[20:03] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #freenet
[20:03] <Redb3ard> you dont see them picketing to have printing presses banned
[20:03] <toad_> yeah, i understand there are KP magazines published on some scale
[20:03] <toad_> printing presses don't attempt to circumvent law enforcement efforts to track down their owners - they certainly don't make this a design goal
[20:04] <toad_> you can use whatever analogies you like, but freenet is innately political
[20:04] <Redb3ard> yeh, but what constitutes circumventing law enforcement efforts is a rather fluid concept
[20:05] <Redb3ard> if i sold a photoshop-like application...
[20:05] <Redb3ard> and refused to include the anti-counterfeiting functions...
[20:05] <Redb3ard> would that be circumventing their efforts?
[20:05] <toad_> it depends who you talk to
[20:06] <Redb3ard> failure to implemented the broadcast flag in my hdtv product, does that count?
[20:06] <toad_> but we make it an explicit goal to make it hard for the authorities to track down users of our network, even if those users happen to be trading files which are illegal, and universally hated
[20:06] <toad_> Redb3ard: depends whether induce passes ;)
[20:07] <Redb3ard> nah, you're making it hard for stalkers to track down innocent victims
[20:07] <Redb3ard> its an unfortunate side effect, that it hinders law enforcement also
[20:07] <Redb3ard> ;)
[20:07] <toad_> who makes it hard for stalkers to track down innocent victims, exactly?
[20:08] <toad_> what's the precedent you're citing?
[20:08] <Redb3ard> you do, with freenet
[20:08] <Redb3ard> thats the purpose of it, right?
[20:08] <toad_> i think you'll find that anyone who incidentally hinders law enforcement is usually engaged in something with overtly political aspects
[20:08] <Redb3ard> stalkers find victims on the internet all the time
[20:09] <toad_> Redb3ard: you can't argue we are literally preventing that
[20:09] <toad_> well not usually
[20:09] <Redb3ard> i can
[20:10] <toad_> stalkers do wiretaps?
[20:10] <Redb3ard> whenever i hear some asshole troll claim otherwise, im gonna trot that out, with a big grin on my face
[20:10] <Redb3ard> yes, they work for ISPs, even law enforcement at times
[20:10] <toad_> well what is your analogy?
[20:10] <Redb3ard> they shop at spy gear shops, i saw it on law & order
[20:10] <toad_> please compare freenet to some other service
[20:11] <Redb3ard> the internet itself
[20:11] <Redb3ard> thats the service i compare it to
[20:11] <toad_> the internet doesn't quite go out of its way to prevent law enforcement from working
[20:11] <toad_> but it doesn't try to guarantee privacy let alone anonymity
[20:11] <Redb3ard> nor does it go out of its way to prevent stalkers from harming their victims ;)
[20:12] * toad_ hmmm. am i going to get anywhere with this serialization bug tonight?
[20:12] <toad_> Redb3ard: so what?
[20:13] <toad_> the only things you can compare freenet with are things like the Anonymizer, women's refuges, journalistic confidentiality, remailers, and so on
[20:13] <Redb3ard> well, isnt that the purpose of freenet?
[20:13] <toad_> anything you can use as precedent has clear political goals
[20:13] <toad_> well political elements
[20:13] <Redb3ard> a network where people dont have to be afraid some nutcase can google their home address, and chop them into dogfood?
[20:14] <toad_> and is probably widely seen as being a PITA to law enforcement and therefore on balance...
[20:14] <Redb3ard> it may be totally facetious, but thats what id claim freenet is for
[20:14] <toad_> Redb3ard: my home address is not on the web
[20:14] <Redb3ard> nor mine
[20:14] <toad_> except maybe through electoral roll
[20:14] <Redb3ard> i didnt claim it was a logical, and/or believable argument
[20:15] <toad_> okay, freenet is good because the mighty flying walrus decrees so
[20:15] <toad_> on behalf of the king riding it
[20:16] <toad_> below on the earth, Gulliver's asylum-companion has gained immortality, only to be locked up in an asylum for all eternity :)
[20:16] <Redb3ard> yes
[20:16] <d-ArkAngel> toad, server is back up if you want to gram the results from it
[20:16] <Redb3ard> like that, but without walruses
[20:16] * toad_ can spout nonsense too you see? :)
[20:16] <Redb3ard> yeh
[20:16] <d-ArkAngel> it's not stable yet tho, so I'd advise against starting any new sims on it till I can get that sorted
[20:16] <d-ArkAngel> should be done sometime tomorrow
[20:17] <Redb3ard> shame your nonsense isnt as socially palatable as the "if you're innocent you have nothing to be afraid of" shit i keep reading
[20:17] <toad_> ok
[20:17] <toad_> Redb3ard: ignore the /. trolls
[20:17] <toad_> they just waste your time
[20:17] <Redb3ard> yeh. but even the non-trolls seem to buy it
[20:17] <toad_> you don't have much chance of convincing them; maybe some of the readers
[20:17] <Redb3ard> i want to cry, some days
[20:18] * toad_ is skeptical that /. campaigning is a worthwhile occupation of your time
[20:18] <toad_> maybe if you're really good at it
[20:19] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-082-082-158-227.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[20:19] <toad_> if you're innocent you have nothing to be afraid of. except for scientology. and nixon. and the [what was the name for the federalists opponents?]. and [insert big infamous megacorp]. and [insert another big infamous megacorp]...
[20:20] <toad_> and [insert largish corporation that makes voting machines that have had some embarassing problems]
[20:20] <toad_> and...
[20:20] <Redb3ard> you mean democracy-threatening problems, i think
[20:21] <toad_> very often it's the people who have blood on their hands that are the most interesting - Deep Throat worked for Nixon in some capacity; the supergrass in the Fishman case had been involved in all sorts of shit; etc etc
[20:22] <d-ArkAngel> ok I kinda walked into this conversation... but even after following along I can't work out what the hell you guys are talking about.
[20:23] <toad_> Redb3ard: not necessarily even directly democracy threatening problems. E.g. $cientology. Anyone who publishes anything against them gets into deep legal, paralegal and often illegal shit. They're ****heads; this is widely documented. One great way to hurt them is to publish their inner mysteries, which are copyrighted by them.
[20:23] <Redb3ard> dont blaspheme
[20:23] <toad_> hmm?
[20:23] <Redb3ard> i think i need to go audit with my e-meter
[20:24] <toad_> heh
[20:24] <Redb3ard> im serious
[20:24] <toad_> they have spies EVERYWHERE!!
[20:24] <toad_> ;)
[20:24] <Redb3ard> ill never reach OT-3 while listening to your blasphemy
[20:24] <toad_> is that the one that accuses jesus of paedophilia?
[20:24] <Redb3ard> um, nah
[20:24] <toad_> nah, that's OT-8
[20:24] <toad_> which $cientology have claimed copyright over
[20:24] <Redb3ard> they never expected anyone to be rich enough to buy their way past OT5 or so
[20:25] <toad_> therefore it's genuine
[20:25] <Redb3ard> and after that, they kinda winged it, making shit up
[20:25] <toad_> Redb3ard: what do you think of "fair game" ? :)
[20:26] <Redb3ard> um, not sure i follow?
[20:26] <toad_> <Redb3ard> and after that, they kinda winged it, making shit up - LOL, yeah.. whereas OT5 is factual...
[20:26] <toad_> Redb3ard: read the fishman supergrass testimony
[20:26] <toad_> it's on Freenet
[20:26] <toad_> but it's also on the WWW
[20:27] <Redb3ard> no
[20:27] <Redb3ard> i mean, whereas they spent time and effort making up the first few
[20:28] <toad_> ahhh
[20:28] <toad_> that makes sense
[20:29] <toad_> anyway the point: $cientology are a big enough problem to justify breach of the letter of the law in the public interest
[20:29] <toad_> NOT JUST things like the Diebold incident
[20:30] <Redb3ard> oh, im quite convinced that there are more than a few such cases that can be justified on those grounds
[20:30] <toad_> (or nixon, or the federalist papers - but direct threat to democracy is the tip of the iceberg)
[20:31] <Redb3ard> actually
[20:31] <Redb3ard> there are people who literally want to make us serfs on their estates
[20:31] <Redb3ard> those they leave alive
[20:31] <toad_> Redb3ard: you have a problem with warez, child porn, racial hatred, or something else, being considered speech?
[20:31] <Redb3ard> warez: not at all
[20:31] <Redb3ard> child porn: does bother me
[20:32] <Redb3ard> racial hatred: mixed feelings, uncertain
[20:32] <Redb3ard> i have problems with commercial speech
[20:32] <Redb3ard> i dont believe it should be protected necessarily
[20:32] <toad_> commercial speech?
[20:32] <toad_> you mean speech by corporations?
[20:33] <Redb3ard> if the year is 1930, and i run a radio ad, because its difficult for people to discover my product...
[20:33] <toad_> the US constitution I believe doesn't acknowledge legal persons; the ECHR only acknowledges them in property rights
[20:33] <Redb3ard> thats protectable
[20:33] <toad_> "legal person" = "corporation"
[20:33] <Redb3ard> if its 1999, and i hire a team of neurologists, to figure out ways of manipulating people to buy things theyd otherwise not want...
[20:33] <toad_> :)
[20:33] <Redb3ard> those manipulations, and any derivatives of them, are not protectable
[20:34] <toad_> well there's some questions with advertising; there are issues of consent with e.g. subliminals
[20:35] <toad_> so you're saying it's okay to regulate advertising, basically?
[20:35] <Redb3ard> more than regulate it, im fine with banning it in certain circumstances
[20:36] <toad_> I don't think that freedom of speech eliminates the fraud etc statutes
[20:36] <Redb3ard> yeh, but theyre actively engaged in the enterprise of making that fraud infinitely subtle...
[20:36] <toad_> if you have a corporate freesite, it may not be blockable, but if you acknowledge it, it's traceable
[20:36] <Redb3ard> yeh
[20:36] <toad_> if you lie through it with the intent of obtaining funds, you can be brought to account
[20:37] <Redb3ard> cant buy and sell, without forfeiting anonymity
[20:37] <toad_> maybe
[20:37] <toad_> if you could, customers would only trust you if there was some solid reputations system
[20:38] <toad_> and i don't know if that is possible
[20:38] <Redb3ard> money transfer is iffy
[20:38] <toad_> indeed
[20:38] <Redb3ard> material goods the other direction, impossible
[20:38] <toad_> not necessarily
[20:39] <Redb3ard> maybe buying an online movie... because freenet can move that safely
[20:39] <toad_> depends on cost, opponent's resources, required security, and so on
[20:39] <toad_> Redb3ard: sure, but that's not a viable business model without copyright
[20:39] <Redb3ard> well, say i want to buy a black box from you, 12 inches cubed
[20:39] <toad_> in terms of traditional ideas of it anyway
[20:40] <Redb3ard> i might be able to send the 1 million UKP via egold or something
[20:40] <toad_> which isn't anonymous
[20:40] <Redb3ard> well, something anonymous
[20:40] <Redb3ard> *maybe*
[20:40] <toad_> right
[20:40] <Redb3ard> but how do i recieve the box?
[20:40] <toad_> Yodels, for example
[20:40] <toad_> somebody posts it
[20:41] <Redb3ard> if i spend 20mil UKP getting it to me, that only attracts even more attention
[20:41] <toad_> possibly through a string of remailers
[20:41] <Redb3ard> yeh
[20:41] <Redb3ard> and those remailers have to be careful not to leave forensic evidence
[20:41] <Redb3ard> no fingerprints, no dns samples
[20:41] <toad_> and dead letter boxes; whatever; exchange of prohibited physical substances happens constantly around us, most of the time, it's a viable business, for the dealers
[20:42] <Redb3ard> dna blah
[20:42] <Redb3ard> yeh, for cheap things, that arouse little contempt
[20:42] <Redb3ard> a rock of crack, easy
[20:42] <Redb3ard> something for which you absolutely must stay anonymous, id think that difficult
[20:42] <Redb3ard> maybe something science fiction would allow it
[20:43] <toad_> well your big problem here is the buyer isn't anonymous :)
[20:43] <Redb3ard> scotty, beam the AnonEx package!
[20:43] <toad_> anyway there are other uses for anonymous digicash
[20:43] <toad_> e.g. the jim bell protocol
[20:44] <toad_> which despite pronouncements from the paper is only usable in "civilized" states, which will rapidly cease to be civilized if it gets much use
[20:44] <Redb3ard> which one is that?
[20:45] <toad_> Redb3ard: assassination politics
[20:45] <Redb3ard> ah
[20:45] <Redb3ard> now i remember
[20:45] <toad_> anonymous sweepstake on death of target
[20:46] <Redb3ard> its sad, that i can agree there are valid uses for that
[20:46] <toad_> blackmail is another obvious use for anonymous digicash
[20:46] <toad_> or street performer protocol producing prohibited media
[20:46] <Redb3ard> i just dont see how to do anonymous cash, myself
[20:46] <Redb3ard> ive given it more than a little though
[20:47] <toad_> Redb3ard: i don't think it's possible to do it underground
[20:47] <Redb3ard> even switzerland dismantled some of its infrastructure for that purpose
[20:47] <toad_> and i don't think it will ever happen above ground
[20:47] <Redb3ard> only rich people are allowed anonymous cash ;)
[20:47] <toad_> not now anyway
[20:47] <toad_> Redb3ard: ;)
[20:47] <Redb3ard> stop me before i get started
[20:47] <toad_> stop!
[20:48] * Redb3ard has been trying to put a net worth on the Rothschilds for a few months now
[20:48] <toad_> Redb3ard: I don't think that I support the assassination politics protocol
[20:48] <Redb3ard> not easy to research that
[20:48] <toad_> well, the NSA know :)
[20:48] <Redb3ard> hah
[20:48] * toad_ . o O ( HI BEN !!!! )
[20:48] <toad_> ;)
[20:48] <Redb3ard> likely they dont
[20:48] <Redb3ard> they might be puppets of them, not sure
[20:49] <toad_> well, they could find out easily enough if they wanted to
[20:49] <Redb3ard> but, assuming only modest yearly returns
[20:49] <toad_> they have the means and the experience to unravel that sort of shit
[20:49] <Redb3ard> and assuming modest stakes in some big banks
[20:49] <Redb3ard> the family in its entirety could easily be worth 10 or 12 trillion USD
[20:49] <Redb3ard> which is a bullshit number
[20:49] <toad_> they probably didn't keep it all
[20:50] <toad_> yeah, $10T is the global GNP for a year..
[20:50] <toad_> $1T is the US GDP
[20:50] <toad_> or is it the other way around?
[20:50] <toad_> no
[20:50] <toad_> it's $10T for the US I think...
[20:50] <Redb3ard> sounds right
[20:50] <toad_> $1T for the UK
[20:50] <Redb3ard> 1.5T maybe, for the US
[20:50] <Redb3ard> oh
[20:50] <Redb3ard> thats only tax revenue
[20:51] <Redb3ard> even so...
[20:51] <toad_> well, they spend $400B on defence alone...
[20:51] <Redb3ard> figure the US is $7T in debt
[20:51] <toad_> think it's $10T for the US
[20:51] <Redb3ard> who do you think owns those IOUs?
[20:51] <toad_> maybe $100T for the whole world
[20:51] <toad_> Redb3ard: the banks...
[20:51] <Redb3ard> yeh
[20:51] <Redb3ard> and who owns banks?
[20:51] <toad_> well, the thing is, the govt doesn't HAVE to pay them back
[20:52] <Redb3ard> heh
[20:52] <toad_> the govt has a lot of control over the banks
[20:52] <Redb3ard> why do you think the war of 1812 was fought?
[20:52] <Redb3ard> the british bankers were pissed, and the head guy said in 1811, we better shapre up, or we'd regret it
[20:52] <toad_> Redb3ard: the superpower doesn't need to pay its debts to everyone else
[20:52] <Redb3ard> and a year later, redcoats were burning down the whitehouse
[20:53] <Redb3ard> think dubya wouldnt sell us out, if he got to remain overlord of the US?
[20:53] <Redb3ard> not like he'd personally be paying it off, we would
[20:53] <toad_> third world countries dependant on aid, on the other hand, are enslaved to their creditors
[20:53] <Redb3ard> heh
[20:53] <Redb3ard> theyre working on that too
[20:54] <toad_> it's not the empire of the USA; it's the empire of the dollar. the EU and the US are two sides of the same coin; carrot and stick (this is why the EU will eventually include not only turkey but russia, iraq, and so on)
[20:55] <kers> haw, about 6 months ago i changed the admin port and the password on this router, now i can't remember it and the router block my nmap scan :o
[20:55] <toad_> BUT that doesn't mean the banks are sovereign
[20:55] <toad_> kers: whoops!
[20:55] <kers> uhm, wrong chan, funny annectdote anyways :)
[20:56] <toad_> <Ash-Fox> I believe in freespeech, but.. illegal copies of software? I don't really see that as free speech
[20:56] <toad_> ahhh
[20:57] <toad_> it wasn't Redb3ard, it was Ash-Fox
[20:57] <toad_> that explains something :)
[20:58] <toad_> now, why is this simulation so fscked up, after reloading from serialization?
[20:59] <toad_> it takes many MANY times longer per cycle than it does if you just run it
[20:59] <Redb3ard> toad, someday ill convert you ;)
[20:59] <Redb3ard> but not today, thankfully
[20:59] <Redb3ard> the network is in a sorry state, about half of it has dropped off, multiple tunnels are down
[20:59] <Redb3ard> yech
[21:00] <toad_> :|
[21:01] <Redb3ard> yeh
[21:01] <Redb3ard> none of them are mine, so i gotta let others fix it
[21:01] <Redb3ard> that kinda hurts
[21:02] <toad_> IP tunneling maybe isn't the best technology in terms of maintenance, deployability and so on...
[21:02] <toad_> Cycle took 973283ms
[21:02] <toad_> yikes
[21:02] <Redb3ard> well, if we can build the network out bigger, there will be more redundancy
[21:02] <toad_> hmm
[21:02] <Redb3ard> network infancy is problematic
[21:03] <d-ArkAngel> toad, it's not doing something crazy like working with all the onjects while still serialized?
[21:03] <toad_> it's not exponentially rising... in fact, it's oscillating or something...
[21:03] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: it must be doing something crazy
[21:03] <toad_> the question is, what?
[21:03] <d-ArkAngel> is it in the cvs tree?
[21:04] <toad_> most of it; i'll just do a diff...
[21:06] <toad_> yeah, it's all in CVS, except for some extra GCing and memory usage monitoring code
[21:07] <d-ArkAngel> well since it's 1am, tomorrow I'll give it a look through and spot if I see anything that jumps out at me
[21:08] * toad_ nods
[21:08] <toad_> should go to bed too
[21:08] <toad_> seeya
[21:25] * kers (~kers@h180n1fls33o873.telia.com) Quit ("Leaving")
[21:41] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) Quit ("Client exiting")
[22:17] * d-ArkAngel (~Rob@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) has left #freenet
[22:22] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-4024215a.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) has joined #freenet
[23:01] * setre (~jussi@h136n1fls301o291.telia.com) Quit ("leaving")
[23:58] * i2p_iip_ (~changate@host.teitel.net) Quit ("Leaving")
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.