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[2:22] <KenMan> okay, so i left some kind of simulation running on my machine (500x20@16) for a while: Success ratio on last 10K reqs: 0.53455 , Load min/max=0.64
[2:23] <KenMan> the min/max ratio surprised me. I wonder if the level of insert:request plays into this.
[2:24] * KenMan only pretends to understand any of this, even half-way :o
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[2:28] <KenMan> so, I let it run up to 10M requests. And now I'm looking at the distribution of total(accumulated) requests for each node...
[2:36] <KenMan> wow! I wasn't expecting a curve that looked like that ! it smells synthetic, and looks like a smooth sine wave.
[2:40] <KenMan> RT size, HTL, datastore size(s), percent of nodes doing insertions, ratio of inserts to pulls... lessee- what other knobs can we twist ?
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[5:38] <d-ArkAngel> Interesting news about the lack of freedom of speech on most hosting providers.
[5:38] <d-ArkAngel> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/14/isp_takedown_study/
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[5:42] <nysin> I've looked in the Freenet FAQ and such resources for this, but I'm still confused: okay, so Freenet prevents one from learning who originally inserted a key (as well as games with obfuscated local caches), but rather than ducking the legal system altogether, doesn't it just transfer it to potentially any freenet host?
[5:43] <d-ArkAngel> how can you tell what's on a freenet host?
[5:44] <nysin> By what they send; the encryption means that to do this, someone'd have to operate a hostile node, but FAQ acknowledges this possibility.
[5:44] <d-ArkAngel> no
[5:44] <d-ArkAngel> you can't tell what's hosted on a node by what it sends
[5:44] <nysin> ... and what I wonder is whether that matters.
[5:44] <d-ArkAngel> that's only the trafic that is passing through a node
[5:44] <nysin> Right...
[5:45] <d-ArkAngel> but it might not be stored on that node.
[5:45] <d-ArkAngel> and if you request something from a node, then there's a % chance that if the data wasn't on that node before you request it, it is now
[5:46] <d-ArkAngel> which means that legaly you put it there (since your action caused it to be there)
[5:47] <d-ArkAngel> so you since you can't see what is on a node, you can't get "reasonable grounds" for any kind of legal action against any given node.
[5:48] <nysin> The distinction of stored on a node or not I view as relevant only under limited circumstances, and largely a separate issue.
[5:48] <nysin> Or is it more?
[5:49] <d-ArkAngel> rubish. that would mean that you could download some child porn and then get a warrant to take action against every router that the infromation passed throught, and every phone company that provided the lines, and the satalite that passed the information on
[5:50] <nysin> I thought a few entities got 'common carrier' protection, but...
[5:50] <d-ArkAngel> you can only take action against the person hosting the information.
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[5:51] <nysin> So someone can upload verboten material to a law enforcement agency all day and not have to worry about it so long as one was merely proxying for someone else?
[5:51] <d-ArkAngel> "upload"? no that's the person distributing content.
[5:51] <nysin> (Child porn or copyright-infringing material to take the two apparently popular examples)
[5:52] <d-ArkAngel> if your computer is part of a routing network, then it's autonomus and any actions if takes are caused by the person making the request.
[5:52] <nysin> Define 'distribute' in this case... How are any of the intermediate routing steps uploading less so than the 'person distributing content'?
[5:53] <nysin> As you point out, one cannot discern from outgoing traffic the contents of a node's cache.
[5:54] <d-ArkAngel> just because an observer can't tell the difference doesn't mean that it's the same thing
[5:55] <nysin> From their point of view (that of the legal system, for example), why not?
[5:56] <d-ArkAngel> because information being transmitted through a network isn't the same as information that you store.
[5:57] <d-ArkAngel> it'd be like legally attacking the postal service because of what you get in the post.
[5:59] <nysin> Okay, and what I wonder is: outside of a few specialized items (the telcos too)...
[5:59] <nysin> (ISPs I guess, but I think their legal basis has been attacked to some degree by recent copyright law)
[5:59] <nysin> Do individuals share this protection?
[6:00] <d-ArkAngel> ok, how about sueing a proxy server for the content people view through it? think that's got a legal basis?
[6:00] <nysin> I don't know.
[6:01] <nysin> I hope not, but I'm not confident thataccords with legal reality.
[6:02] <d-ArkAngel> freenet is about freedom of speech. as long as you're intent in running a node is not to deliberatly break the law, only to exercise your rights (which unless you admit they can hardly prove otherwise) then you are not responsible for the actions of others.
[6:02] <d-ArkAngel> there is no law that requires people to be able to be identified (yet)
[6:04] <d-ArkAngel> so if your node is used by others to route illegal information then that's not your fault, it is done without your knowledge or reasonable ability to screen (same terms used in decisions that mean ISP's aren't responsible for policeing what websites people visit)
[6:05] <nysin> Okay, so the legal concept of a common carrier does usefully extend to, for example, Freenet users.
[6:06] <d-ArkAngel> if it didn't then you'd be able to outlaw any peer to peer network that contained even a single file that was illegal.
[6:06] <d-ArkAngel> given that the nodes are all provideing brokerage for the distribution of the file.
[6:09] <d-ArkAngel> besides, freenet isn't "by criminals, for criminals"
[6:09] <d-ArkAngel> it's not about breaking the law
[6:10] <d-ArkAngel> it's about stopping legitimate sites getting beaten with the same stick that's used on the illegal ones. And the only way that we can see to do that is to take away the stick.
[6:11] <nysin> Well, not necessarily: most P2P doesn't route file content, but mere addresses (of computers with a file, for example)...
[6:11] <d-ArkAngel> that's mearly down to structure.
[6:11] <nysin> As far as I know, URLs are ... not generally illicit.
[6:12] <d-ArkAngel> freenet does it for load distribution
[6:13] <ShaunMacPherson> I made an index for I2P and i did something really funny. In the books section I said "Some of these books may not be in the public domain in your particular country" should have put <wink> at the end heh
[6:14] <nysin> (As far as the 'what freenet is about' stuff: Fasttrack has avoided too many legal issues even though they're pretty blatantly involved in copyright infringement...)
[6:14] <nysin> (I'm not sure how much that matters either positively or negatively.)
[6:16] <nysin> d-ArkAngel: Elaborate on 'merely down to structure'? Yes, there's some fluidity in that distinction, but less than I believe that response acknowledges.
[6:19] <d-ArkAngel> I still don't see any way there can be a legal challenge against you for forwarding one some elses answer to a question that someone asked you and you didn't know the answer to. (I started and couldn't be bothered changing the object in the example, but you know what I mean)
[6:20] <nysin> Enough that the various Magnet-link sites, bittorrent trackers, and suchlike have avoided copyright infringement charges...
[6:22] <nysin> Wouldn't this serve as a pretty generic and unfalsifiable defense?
[6:22] <d-ArkAngel> but what your saying is that if I am a legal authority, and I ask your computer to do something illegal (request by key something that breaks what ever law) and it complies through it having no way to know if the request is legal or not, then I am in some way liable for your action.
[6:22] <d-ArkAngel> sorry, I got lost in that...
[6:22] <plixed_> nysin: fasttrack and other p2p software developer are not more involved in copyright infringement than gun makers in small arms homocides/accidents
[6:24] <nysin> plixed_: fair enough. Ignore the pure software developers and just use the link/torrent sites, then... Which seem to me to demonstrate the link/content distinction between Freenet and (most) other P2P.
[6:24] <nysin> d-ArkAngel: yes, that's what I'm dubious about.
[6:25] <d-ArkAngel> that's like saying that if someone comes into my house and uses a knife from my kitchen to kill my wife, then I'm resonsble...
[6:26] <d-ArkAngel> the knife isn't provided as a service for killing my wife, it's for buttering toats.
[6:26] <d-ArkAngel> but the law that is broken using that service is broken by the person causing the action.
[6:28] <nysin> d-ArkAngel: the murderer looks exactly like you.
[6:28] <nysin> Indistinguishable.
[6:29] <d-ArkAngel> if people all looked the same, that would only count as circumstantial evidence.
[6:29] <ShaunMacPherson> What is the arguement, if its legeal to run Freenet, or if it is moral? :)
[6:29] <d-ArkAngel> legal
[6:30] <ShaunMacPherson> It is legal since you do not, and cannot know what your node is being used for.
[6:30] <ShaunMacPherson> And you have no real reason it would be used for illegal purposes necessarily :)
[6:30] <ShaunMacPherson> <to think>
[6:30] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, the law requires proof that it was you, not the observers inability to tell that it wasn't you.
[6:31] <ShaunMacPherson> i think so aslo
[6:31] <ShaunMacPherson> Although the law is just the laws passed by the sovern, not very interesting to me; the morality question is more interesting :)
[6:31] <ShaunMacPherson> 2nd laws should be rules
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[6:32] <nysin> All people don't look the same.
[6:32] <d-ArkAngel> and that's where the analogy breaks down
[6:32] <nysin> You, in fact, look quite different than the real murderer; it's just that your image obscures his.
[6:33] <nysin> (Your fingerprints, footsteps...)
[6:33] <d-ArkAngel> ok you can stop trolling now.
[6:33] <ShaunMacPherson> Even if you prove the analogy correct, it doesn't mean that the freenet arguement is necessarily equilivant :)
[6:34] <ShaunMacPherson> thats why i dont like analogies except as quick examples hehe
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[6:50] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> Interesting news about the lack of freedom of speech on most hosting providers.
[6:50] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/14/isp_takedown_study/
[6:50] <toad_> sad but not surprising
[6:52] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[6:54] <toad_> <nysin> As far as I know, URLs are ... not generally illicit. - you'd be surprised... in the US, MPAA vs 2600 (Corley vs Universal?)...
[6:54] <toad_> well that was a link
[6:56] <toad_> nysin: all files look very similar on freenet
[6:56] <toad_> because the node cannot decrypt the actual content
[6:57] <toad_> the only way to say file XYZ contains child porn is either a) you inserted it, b) you generated a CHK from some child porn, or c) you went looking for some child porn to find its routing key(s)
[6:58] <toad_> apart from the impracticality of scanning all traffic... because it's encrypted, it's virtually impossible
[6:59] <toad_> now, perhaps you can argue willful blindness
[6:59] <toad_> but the goals of the project mean there are significant noninfringing uses
[6:59] <toad_> and we conform mostly to the EFF's guide to how to keep your p2p system legal
[6:59] <d-ArkAngel> mostly?
[6:59] <toad_> of course if INDUCE passes, it'll all go out the window
[7:00] <toad_> http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/p2p_copyright_wp.php
[7:00] <toad_> V. Lessons and guidelines for P2P developers.
[7:00] <nysin> I just read the second circuit court of appeal's conclusions and they were rather unfortunate, indeed
[7:01] <toad_> 1. Make and store no copies.
[7:01] <toad_> difficult
[7:01] <toad_> devs have to run nodes
[7:01] <toad_> however we don't knowingly make or store any copies of any specific illicit material
[7:01] <toad_> well I don't
[7:01] <toad_> and I'm the only guy who gets paid for it :)
[7:02] <toad_> 2. Your two options: total control or total anarchy.
[7:02] <toad_> we go for total anarchy
[7:02] <toad_> 3. Better to sell stand-alone software products than on-going services.
[7:02] <toad_> we do in some sense sell an ongoing service... but we have no power to terminate users, short of modifying the source
[7:02] <toad_> if we did, people would distribute fixed versions
[7:03] <toad_> technically there are opportunities for central control, but they would go against the whole ethos, and could easily be subverted
[7:04] <toad_> The key here is to let go of any control you may have over your users?no remote kill switch, automatic update feature, contractual termination rights, or other similar mechanisms. (Although the Grokster court found that the ability to update software already deployed to end-users is irrelevant to establishing "control" for vicarious liability, prudence suggests that vendors give anything that smacks of "control" a wide berth.)
[7:04] <toad_> nysin: in which case?
[7:04] <nysin> The one you cited.
[7:04] <toad_> 4. What are your substantial noninfringing uses?
[7:04] <toad_> we have plenty
[7:04] <toad_> nysin: ah ok
[7:04] <nysin> http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/NY/appeals/opinion.html
[7:04] <toad_> 5. Do not promote infringing uses.
[7:04] <toad_> we don't - not from the web site anyway
[7:05] <toad_> some of our fans may, but they're not us
[7:05] <toad_> they're not part of the corp
[7:05] <toad_> 7. Don't make your money from the infringing activities of your users.
[7:05] <toad_> unclear...
[7:05] <toad_> Avoid business models that rely on revenue streams that can be directly traced to infringing activities. For example, a P2P file-sharing system that includes a payment mechanism might pose problems, if the system vendor takes a percentage cut of all payments, including payments generated from sales of bootleg Divx movie files.
[7:05] <toad_> we're probably okay on 7...
[7:05] <nysin> Also - that document is about P2P developers' self-protection. Quite important, but distinct from that of users.
[7:05] <toad_> 8. Give up the EULA.
[7:06] <toad_> no problem here...
[7:06] <toad_> 9. No direct customer support. - this one is a bastard. i DO support users. however i make it clear that if they tell me about illegal downloads, I cannot help them and if they are in the UK I probably have a duty to report them
[7:06] <toad_> nysin: indeed...
[7:07] <toad_> 10. Be open source.
[7:07] <toad_> we do this too
[7:07] <toad_> so mostly we conform to the guidelines
[7:08] <toad_> nysin: well, firstly, they'd go for us
[7:08] <toad_> if they think they can win, and we're a threat, then we're the big target
[7:09] <toad_> after that, they'd try to trace some uploaders... without a lot of detective or infiltration or attacking work that'll be hard, so they'd try to prosecute people for having nodes
[7:09] <toad_> but under current legislation, that's a grey area at worst
[7:09] <toad_> however if they change the law, they can do anything :)
[7:12] <nysin> Yes, well, INDUCE is quite worrying, as you point out. (Typed blindly; I hope for few typos.)
[7:14] <toad_> nysin: but it won't pass in this session
[7:14] <toad_> according to the latest intel
[7:14] <toad_> ironically kerry is really big on intellectual property protection...
[7:15] <toad_> whereas bush will only do whatever is right for american big biz ;)
[7:16] <toad_> what exactly is the role of the white house in the legislative process?
[7:16] <toad_> if any?
[7:17] <toad_> he has to sign stuff into law... so he has the right of veto?
[7:19] * toad_ hasn't read bush's manifesto, wonders if intellectual property protection is a constituency check-box...
[7:20] <toad_> or something more substantial, such as "democrats love the entertainment industry"
[7:23] <nysin> Yes, he does.
[7:23] <nysin> But that veto can be overridden (2/3rds congress IIRC)
[7:24] <toad_> and there's some sort of origination of legislation in the white house? they publish some sort of pre-legislation?
[7:24] <nysin> Not within the congressional lawmaking framework, though they surely do so unofficially.
[7:25] * toad_ heard about some white house proposals on unemployment/training/benefits, for example, a couple years ago
[7:26] <nysin> All legislation must be propposed and initially voted on in congress.
[7:28] <nysin> Bush can even personally write bills, but they have to be sponsored by some congressman.
[7:33] <toad_> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6481859
[7:33] <toad_> yay, the War on Piracy!
[7:33] <toad_> the question is, does this have a legislative dimension?
[7:34] <toad_> |and the United States will ensure that intellectual property crimes are included in all its international extradition treaties.
[7:34] <toad_> interesting...
[7:35] <d-ArkAngel> doubly so given the gulfs in IP law between us an them
[7:38] <toad_> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/14/1742224
[7:39] <toad_> nice...
[7:39] <toad_> without requiring any DRM hardware either
[7:40] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[7:41] <d-ArkAngel> even worse.
[7:41] <d-ArkAngel> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/13/1829234&tid=155&tid=189&tid=109&tid=156&tid=17
[7:41] <toad_> http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/14/1939226 - predictable, I don't see why people get upset about these things...
[7:41] <nysin> "Counterfeit entertainment and luxury goods"? Luxury goods?
[7:42] <d-ArkAngel> porn? :-)
[7:42] * toad_ LOL @ http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/13/1829234&tid=155&tid=189&tid=109&tid=156&tid=17
[7:42] <d-ArkAngel> gotta love pattents
[7:43] <toad_> hehe, yeah, all that [celeb name deleted] porn.. half of it's fake, so the owner wants to sue the fakers!
[7:43] <nysin> Well, "and two rejections". I'm almost curious enough to spend a few minutes finding out why it went through this time...
[7:43] <d-ArkAngel> so how much will freenet be paying MS then for the linked lists & arrays we're using? :-)
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[7:44] <toad_> hmmm
[7:44] <nysin> "It highlighted the case of an American teenager whose counterfeit cell phone battery exploded, causing a fire in his bedroom, and a man prosecuted for selling adulterated pesticides to city governments trying to control the spread of the West Nile virus." <--- How is that related to "IP theft", and didn't that teenager probably knowingly participate in such theft?
[7:44] <toad_> exactly what are they claiming there?
[7:45] <toad_> it doesn't initially read as that broad... it's about form filling isn't it?
[7:45] <toad_> nysin: no, he was sold a counterfeit battery
[7:45] <toad_> one branded nokia that wasn't made by nokia, for example
[7:45] <toad_> it was branded to sell more, but made on the cheap
[7:45] <toad_> it went bang
[7:46] <nysin> Seems so - encorcing dynamic constracSeems so - enforcing dynamic constraints...
[7:46] <toad_> this doesn't mean ALL counterfeit batteries will explode
[7:46] <toad_> just that that one did
[7:47] <nysin> Well, okay, but how does that relate to IP?
[7:47] <nysin> Seems ... mildly tangential.
[7:48] <toad_> http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=125532&cid=10516139
[7:49] <toad_> nysin: because they use the logo of the company who's battery it's supposed to be to convince people it's from a reputable manufacturer
[7:50] <nysin> Ah, that's good - much as /. is made fun of, a comment pointing out their errors is still moderated highly.
[7:50] <toad_> LOL @ http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/10/13/2242243 - the yellow "related links" box - "Best deals: Your Rights Online"
[7:54] <toad_> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=125671&cid=10526612
[7:57] <toad_> that one has "Best Deals: The Courts", which is even better than "Best Deals: Your Rights Online"
[7:57] * toad_ thinks the need to pay for bandwidth is a corrupting influence :)
[7:58] <toad_> bbl
[8:05] <d-ArkAngel> just to keep up the [ot]
[8:05] <d-ArkAngel> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10/15/bofh_2004_episode_35/
[8:19] <d-ArkAngel> hey toad, ping me when you return
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[11:00] <d-ArkAngel> the sims you're running, there's three of them.
[11:00] <d-ArkAngel> 2x200 nodes, and 1x400 nodes
[11:01] <toad_> hi
[11:01] <toad_> yes
[11:01] <toad_> 1sec, will graph em
[11:01] <toad_> are the 400's 400x25 or 400x50?
[11:02] <d-ArkAngel> how many requests have gone through? just wondering if one of the 200's has finished. it might be better to kill one, the task swapping 3 tasks 2 processors seems to be quite "swappy" and it'll slow it down.
[11:02] <d-ArkAngel> I'll look
[11:03] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> toad, dude...ever considered i2p as the foundation for a freentish approach?
[11:03] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50-smooth.png
[11:03] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-800x50-smooth.png
[11:03] <d-ArkAngel> nonfullyconnected nfcnodes=400 nfcrt=50 estimatorpassing fastestimators pcaching nonewbie altannounce probeinexperience randomizewhenequal htl=22 fetchfrac=0.025
[11:03] <toad_> newsbyte: occasionally, especially for premix routing, but jrandom tells me that i2p isn't ready for serious numbers of nodes yet
[11:04] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I've just been looking at i2p for the first time this week, and I'm pleasantly surprised
[11:04] <toad_> newsbyte: does it have more than 50 nodes yet?
[11:05] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I thought it was a sortof wannabe freenet that would go nowhere, like enthropy, but..seems rather good and interesting
[11:05] * Zorix (Brandon@fl-69-34-0-219.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) has joined #freenet
[11:05] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> yes, 72, yesterday
[11:05] <toad_> i've discussed premix routing at length with jrandom
[11:05] <toad_> he tells me that using i2p might be an option... when i2p is ready for 10,000+ nodes
[11:06] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> well, all, including jrandom, claims it should scale easily
[11:06] <toad_> yeah, sure
[11:06] <toad_> like freenet "should" scale easily
[11:06] <d-ArkAngel> nonfullyconnected nfcnodes=200 nfcrt=25 estimatorpassing fastestimators pcaching nonewbie altannounce probeinexperience randomizewhenequal htl=15 fetchfrac=0.025
[11:06] <d-ArkAngel> nonfullyconnected nfcnodes=200 nfcrt=25 estimatorpassing offlinert fastestimators pcaching nonewbie altannounce probeinexperience randomizewhenequal htl=15 offlinert fetchfrac=0.025
[11:06] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> yes, well...let's face it; freenet has been on a standstill for some considerable tiem, now
[11:07] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-200x25-smooth.png
[11:07] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: it looks very much like the htl 15 curves are declining, right?
[11:07] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I mean, there haven't been any breakthroughs that actually got it better to work, in an endusers' perspective
[11:07] <toad_> newsbyte: really?
[11:08] <toad_> newsbyte: my impression is that first time user experience is actually greatly improved over a year ago
[11:08] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: you want to shut the PC down?
[11:08] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> maybe we just turned left where we should have turned right, somewhere. I2P seems rather very well thought of too, and workable. Instead of moving stuff around, they make sure you don't know where it is
[11:08] <d-ArkAngel> well let's put it this way, I've got new toys to try out :-)
[11:08] <d-ArkAngel> I can wait, it's no "rush"
[11:08] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> a combination of the two may do the trick
[11:08] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[11:09] <toad_> newsbyte: I2P is an option for premix routing
[11:09] <toad_> when it's mature enough
[11:09] <toad_> i'm hardly going to build it into freenet if jrandom says i2p isn't ready
[11:09] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> ermm, yea..premix routing...but the actual routing is still NGR, then?
[11:09] <toad_> yes
[11:10] <toad_> look newsbyte, why do you think i've been putting all this effort into simulation?
[11:10] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I'm not sure if that sort of routing will do it
[11:10] <toad_> either the simulations will show that NGR can work, and will give us a list of tweaks we can use to improve its performance
[11:10] <toad_> or it will show that NGR simply cannot scale, and we can look at some other options
[11:11] <d-ArkAngel> "what effort, it's not even pretty enough to announe on slashdot" (Sorry I couldn't stop my self typing it ;-) )
[11:11] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-229-229.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[11:11] <toad_> EVEN IF we were to fork, if we wanted to take much of the community with us, and certainly if we wanted to take ian and the board with us, we would need some serious simulation work
[11:11] <toad_> NOW, ***IF*** we can establish through simulation that NGR is a dead end, i'm prepared to either go back to classical routing or look at something completely different
[11:12] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> like a freenet based on i2p?
[11:12] <toad_> and IF we can establish that it should scale, at least in an ideal world, and then we can try it with a slightly less ideal world i.e. with load simulated, then we can get on with it, with a clearer understanding of the issues
[11:13] <d-ArkAngel> it looks like NRG seems to scale ok from what we're seeing, my only fear is the network training times. but that's just my "feeling" from what data we're seeing, it could all go horribly wrong at the next graph :-)
[11:14] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: I'm not sure
[11:14] <toad_> the 800 node simulations are unclear
[11:15] <d-ArkAngel> I'm not at all happy with the peak and then fall away nature of the graphs, of indeed the aparently large amounts of "noise" we're seeing in these graphs.... with a fixed network size I've had hoped for a reasonably stable performance
[11:15] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: any progress on what we talked about? i can see some fairly major issues with it that might mean e.g. updating costs so much that it's slower than what we have now despite being 10x faster on routing
[11:15] <d-ArkAngel> I've gotta be honest I've not had much time to work on it
[11:16] <d-ArkAngel> Real Life tents to interfear, and work has been a little manic, kinda stopped me working any of the code here.
[11:16] <d-ArkAngel> I should get some time to play with it a little this weekend, but who knows,
[11:17] <d-ArkAngel> for a test I'm going to do it without the newbie connections, and just use propper hard core LRU peers lists to build the array
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> well possibly even without connection breaking.
[11:18] <toad_> you could just use a fully connected network
[11:18] <toad_> that's probably easiest
[11:18] <toad_> just to test e.g. routing
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> trying to have it all in one thing for a performance test would make it unhappy I'm sure.
[11:18] <toad_> anyway IMHO this should be two separate projects
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[11:19] <toad_> parallelization, and new-routing-optimization
[11:19] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[11:19] <toad_> but as I've said, it's going to be complex to find all the points that need to be recalculated on a change, and there may be many of them, so although you don't have too bad memory/speed tradeoffs, you do have serious issues with recalculation cost
[11:20] <toad_> and you can't do it lazily either..
[11:20] <d-ArkAngel> you think so?
[11:20] <toad_> i don't know
[11:20] <toad_> it will be relatively complicated to figure out which points you need to recalc from the 3 different KEs
[11:21] <toad_> hopefully the improvements in routing will swamp the increased number of calculations during a change
[11:21] <toad_> especially on large RTs
[11:21] <toad_> e.g.
[11:21] <toad_> 3 variables
[11:21] <toad_> pDNF, tDNF, tSuccess
[11:21] <toad_> if a sub-sector is entirely contained for each by an inter-center block, then they're all straight lines
[11:22] <toad_> but the estimate isn't necessarily a straight line
[11:22] <d-ArkAngel> can't we consider them as totally separate from an implementation point of view?
[11:22] <toad_> the math isn't especially hard, but it does mean you might end up calculating lots of points, and having to mess about with coordinating the 3...
[11:22] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: how?
[11:23] <toad_> your object is to have a minimum and maximum estimator value for the node for a given keyspace range, right?
[11:23] <d-ArkAngel> hmmm, yeah because the sorting is going to be over a mixture isn't it...
[11:23] <d-ArkAngel> ok forget that outburst...
[11:24] <toad_> it's quite possible
[11:24] <toad_> it'll be a little tricky to combine them
[11:24] <d-ArkAngel> you know what freenet needs?
[11:24] <toad_> hopefully the number of evals affected won't be a serious problem... but i'm not sure
[11:24] <d-ArkAngel> all the developers, one room, a white board and half a dozen beers.
[11:24] <toad_> hmm?
[11:24] <toad_> possibly
[11:24] <toad_> where are you?
[11:25] <d-ArkAngel> North east
[11:25] <toad_> kers is going to try to get in contact with me IRL this week i think
[11:25] <toad_> he wants some pics for something he's writing
[11:25] <toad_> unfortunately ian is out of the continent
[11:25] <toad_> you should've been at NotCon
[11:25] <toad_> me and oskar and ian and toast and probably others were there
[11:27] * toad_ restarts simulation with serialization code actually turned on this time... ;)
[11:27] <toad_> kers is definitely not a dev
[11:28] <toad_> I'm looking forward to oskar eating his emails over freenet not scaling
[11:30] <toad_> and i'm rather concerned at the other possibility :|
[11:31] <toad_> bbiab
[11:35] * toad_ is back anyway
[11:35] * toad_ will be leaving in around an hour
[11:36] <toad_> java.io.FileNotFoundException: simsave-nonfullyconnected-nfcnodes=800-nfcrt=50-htl=30-storesize=100-fetchfrac=0.025-pcaching-probref-longestimators-fastestimators-altannounce-probeinexperience-randomizewhenequal-estimatorpassing-movementfactor=0.05-buckets=8-newbiehits=200-2004-10-15-15-36-51-2004-10-15-15-37-06 (Filename too long)
[11:36] <toad_> hmmm
[11:36] <toad_> that's an interesting one
[11:36] * toad_ didn't know such limitations still existed...
[11:37] <toad_> but of course it's 256 chars or so on ext2 and 4096 on reiser...
[11:37] <greycat> I could dig up a few unix boxes with 14 char limits
[11:37] <greycat> I don't think any of them are on the network right now, though
[11:37] <toad_> 14?!? woah
[11:37] <toad_> old?
[11:37] <greycat> quite :)
[11:38] <greycat> HP-UX 9.x on motorola m68k cpus
[11:38] <toad_> hmmm
[11:38] <toad_> if I make the directory simsave-nonfullyconnected-nfcnodes=800-nfcrt=50-htl=30-storesize=100-fetchfrac=0.025-pcaching-probref-longestimators-fastestimators-altannounce-probeinexperience-randomizewhenequal-estimatorpassing-movementfactor=0.05-buckets=8-newbiehits=200
[11:38] <toad_> that's cutting it rather fine...
[11:38] <toad_> 243 chars
[11:40] <toad_> maybe something more logical, e.g. simsave/nonfullyconnected/nfcnodes=800/nfcrt=50/htl=30/<everything else>/<start date>/<checkpoint date> ?
[11:41] <toad_> or make it shallower and group the first few: simsave-nonfullyconnected-nfcnodes=800-nfcrt=50-htl=30/<start date>/<checkpoint date>
[11:42] <toad_> simsave/nonfullyconnected-nfcnodes=800-nfcrt=50-htl=30/<start date>/<checkpoint date>
[11:43] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I would like to give my comment on it, but have no f- idea what you are talking about ;-)
[11:44] <i2p_iip> <newsbyte> I would like to give my comment on it, but have no f- idea what you are talking about ;-)
[11:44] <toad_> newsbyte: the filename for the simulator state save files
[11:44] <toad_> used for restarting or analysing a checkpoint
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[11:54] <toad_> woah
[11:54] <toad_> the save file is 74.5MB
[11:55] <Romster> long time since I've used freenet the seeds file is nearly 15MB used to be one 1 or 2 mb at the most.
[11:55] <greycat> they offer it bzipped now for quicker downloading, but yeah, it grew a bit
[11:56] <toad_> well this is something else
[11:56] <greycat> each node in the list has much more info attached to it now
[11:56] <i2p_iip> <gott> greycat: how old are your children ?
[11:56] <toad_> save file = simulator save file = checkpoint of simulator, hopefully we can restart from it
[11:56] <greycat> gott: 8 and 10
[11:56] <i2p_iip> <gott> what do they think of freenet ?
[11:56] <greycat> I don't think they know it exists.
[11:56] * toad_ lol @ gott
[11:57] <Romster> heh
[11:57] <i2p_iip> <gott> your children are not educated
[11:57] <Romster> is iip still working again?
[11:57] * toad_ educates gott with a hammer
[11:57] <i2p_iip> <gott> yes
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[11:57] <Romster> I thought that project died
[11:57] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad: communist
[11:58] <toad_> Romster: there was a revival
[11:58] <toad_> but i2p is better
[11:58] <i2p_iip> <gott> romster: the Afrikaaner Br?derbund took it over
[11:58] * Sugadude (~Sugadude@216.17.101.36) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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[11:58] <Romster> I've been with i2p for awhile not as long as freenet thro, but it seems to disagree with this pc.
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[12:07] * toad_ commits simulator changes...
[12:09] <toad_> "they'd better not know about it.. if they do, they're downloading oddball porn from it!"
[12:13] <Romster> heh
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[12:14] <toad_> hi mazzanet
[12:20] <i2p_iip> <gott> do you feel as if there is competition between you and jrandom from a purely personal programming skill point of view, toad ?
[12:20] <i2p_iip> <gott> do you feel threatened that jrandom might have coded something much better than what you have in an extremely shorter amount of time ?
[12:21] <greycat> toad didn't *write* freenet. He inherited it.
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[12:22] <i2p_iip> <gott> wrong again, greycat. He is currently The One.
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[12:25] <toad_> I wrote much of freenet but I didn't start it
[12:25] <toad_> I like the architecture of freenet for various reasons
[12:25] <Romster> I really think i2p should have freenet's datastore, and then i2p/freenet can be static and dynamic
[12:26] <toad_> but if abandoning the architecture is the only way to achieve the core goals... then I am prepared to do so
[12:26] <Romster> i2p and freenet both have there good and bad points
[12:26] <toad_> Romster: I2P has 75 users
[12:26] <toad_> freenet has 10k+
[12:26] <Romster> i think i2p will catch on for soem uses but the unencripted files at each end is a problem while freenet has a encripted datastore
[12:27] <Romster> toad_: that can change in the future *shrugs*
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[12:28] <Romster> I think freenet is a good idea so is i2p but finding the best methods for each isn't easy
[12:29] <Romster> i2p prolly be best for irc and p2p file transfer while freenet is better for forums and web sites etc.
[12:29] <Romster> it's really a hard question to answer as to which is better, I think each has it's pourpose
[12:30] <toad_> Romster: freenet does not have an encrypted datastore
[12:30] <toad_> the files are themselves encrypted all the way through the network
[12:30] <toad_> but encrypting the store itself isn't very useful
[12:30] <toad_> and if I2P is better for "p2p file transfer", then there's no point having freenet
[12:30] <Romster> I thought the datastore itself was also encripted and only freenet can use it?
[12:30] <toad_> if we can't make big files move fast we have no hope with small files
[12:31] <toad_> Romster: no, if we encrypted the datastore then anyone who knew the key could read it.. if you want an encrypted store, use loopcrypt or something similar
[12:31] <Romster> wasn't freenet ment offor forums like frost and dynamic web pages?
[12:31] <toad_> the point is the files are encrypted to start with
[12:31] <toad_> you have no way of finding what they are unless you find them first
[12:32] <toad_> client side scripting is VERY difficult to do safely
[12:32] <Romster> hmm looks like i have more readign to do...
[12:32] <toad_> I2P is presently fast enough that you can do it server side
[12:32] <Romster> reading*
[12:32] <toad_> turning on javascript on I2P is IMNSHO a serious liability
[12:33] <Romster> I see i2p as being dynamic while freenet is more static in someways.
[12:33] <Romster> I haven't tryed javascript on any encripted network yet.
[12:33] <Romster> but I agree it is risky
[12:34] <toad_> you could use i2p for searching (and premix routing) and freenet for file transfer
[12:34] <Romster> is possable
[12:35] <toad_> IF freenet works acceptably fast for file transfer
[12:35] <Romster> mind you I haven't used freenet for a long time now so I'm yet to find out how it's improved from the older version I have used
[12:35] * toad_ recommends you try it, you might be pleasantly surprised despite all the pessimism around here
[12:36] <toad_> IIRC first time requesting performance was better than it used to be, although still not great, when I tried it a month ago on a clean node...
[12:36] <toad_> very few RNFs, for example
[12:36] <Romster> I normally try things for myself b4 I make a decision I'm downloading it now infact.
[12:36] <toad_> if you're behind a firewall and can't forward ports, you'll have problems, of course
[12:37] <toad_> bbl
[12:37] <Romster> got a firewall but is already setup to allow java
[12:37] <Romster> k
[12:38] <Romster> I remember the older update program sometimes never worked and I had to update manually from the web site, thro it's working fine this time
[12:42] <d-ArkAngel> quick question about architecture.
[12:43] <d-ArkAngel> when you make a request you get the option to connect to the data soruce.
[12:43] <d-ArkAngel> doesn't that mean you know who was storeing the file?
[12:46] <d-ArkAngel> toad: send me an e-mail telling me if you think i should work on the parallel sim without the updated code, or if I should look at this estimator combining issue.
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[12:47] <d-ArkAngel> catch you all later on (possibly.
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[13:53] <i2p_iip> <gott> May I eat you ?
[13:54] <Romster> heh
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[17:05] <greycat> SSK@wlUk5niRuNDUL4lzvdHu6DamhW8PAgM/cwru-protest// (stable network)
[17:05] * DebolazIT should reinstall freenet.
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[19:30] <toad_> hi
[19:31] <hobx> lo
[19:33] <toad_> gott: no
[19:33] <hobx> arg
[19:33] <hobx> it's the toad time warp machine
[19:33] <toad_> ugh?
[19:34] <toad_> no, there's very little backlog
[19:34] <hobx> you responded to a six hour old question
[19:34] <toad_> and this is bad because...?
[19:35] <toad_> size of the serialized simulations is increasing slowly...
[19:35] <toad_> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 74840485 Oct 15 16:14 2004-10-15-16-14-45
[19:35] <toad_> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 83515105 Oct 15 23:27 2004-10-15-23-27-02
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[19:39] <toad_> hi mazpe
[19:39] <mazpe> hello
[19:40] <DebolazIT> mazpe :)
[19:40] <mazpe> debo=)
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[20:23] <toad_> bbl
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[20:42] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad is a communist
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[20:44] <hobx> wow
[20:44] <hobx> you are right about something for once
[20:45] <pupok> where did he go?!
[20:47] <i2p_iip> <gott> I love toad
[20:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> but he is british
[20:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> and that is too bad
[20:48] <toad_> hobx: I'm not a communist
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[20:48] <toad_> :)
[20:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad, can you promise me something ?
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[20:58] <toad_> http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/AhimsaPressrelease
[20:58] <toad_> "The fact that the authorities' actions are shrouded in mystery leaves Indymedia in the Kafkaesque position of not knowing the identity of its accusers or the nature of their claim," says David Dadge, editor for the International Press Institute.
[20:58] <toad_> hehe, anonymous lawsuits!
[20:59] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad, can you promise me something ?
[21:04] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad, can you promise me something ?
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[21:11] <toad_> nice article: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19107
[21:12] <toad_> also very interesting (linked from above): http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Global/AhimsaPressrelease
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[21:36] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad ?
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[21:43] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad why do you say nothing ?
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[22:03] <KenMan> sometimes toad_s dont have anything to say. Haven't you ever looked directly into the eyes of toad ? Most of them look they will never have anything to say.
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[22:08] <KenMan> okay, after 43 million simulated requests, I've learned - not very much...
[22:08] <KenMan> so, time to shake things up :)
[22:16] <Zorix-> lol
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
