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[7:59] <i2p_iip> <gott> good morning toad !
[8:00] <toad_> hi gott
[8:05] <i2p_iip> <gott> *hugs*
[8:06] <i2p_iip> <gott> how are you today
[8:06] <toad_> not bad
[8:06] <toad_> how are you?
[8:06] <i2p_iip> <gott> I am very good.
[8:06] <i2p_iip> <gott> I would like you to get the bad pages out of Freenet though.
[8:06] * toad_ thinks he will go to aikido later... hasn't done for a while
[8:06] <toad_> gott: no can do, sorry
[8:07] <toad_> you have to do that.. drum up a lot of requests for the non-bad pages, and get people not to request the bad ones
[8:09] <i2p_iip> <gott> it is a joke
[8:09] <i2p_iip> <gott> I like the p?dophilia pages.
[8:09] <i2p_iip> <gott> it makes me feel happy they are able to express themselves
[8:09] <toad_> you're sick
[8:09] <toad_> ah
[8:09] <toad_> what do you mean by like?
[8:10] <i2p_iip> <gott> Unlike some people, I don't declare p?dophilia to be bad just because it is erotica based on perhaps questionable actions
[8:10] <i2p_iip> <gott> Once something is done, it is done
[8:11] <toad_> I'm uncertain as far as paedo goes; it may be simply a necessary evil that free speech includes such things; I doubt that paedo porn HELPS the situation
[8:13] <toad_> I suspect that for a paedophile who isn't currently practising, paedo porn is not helpful to the goal of not abusing children, nor of getting on with his life
[8:13] <toad_> but I could be wrong about that
[8:14] <i2p_iip> <gott> well
[8:14] <toad_> gratifying these things just makes them grow.. in my understanding
[8:15] <toad_> which is probably flawed in major ways
[8:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> I can tell you that from a non-p?dophile point of view that I can put up with not having a girlfriend/boyfriend by pornography.
[8:15] <toad_> I can put up with celibacy without pornography
[8:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> but hell. it's just a picture.
[8:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> or movie sometimes.
[8:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> of a kid that might be dead.
[8:15] <toad_> sure, but if there is demand for such pictures, they will be created
[8:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> in many cases, the p?do isn't violent.
[8:16] <toad_> does that matter?
[8:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> it's just like normal porn at a younger age
[8:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> well, it's also na?ve to state the child doesn't want it.
[8:16] <toad_> maybe so, but what about later in life?
[8:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> there was a book written from a p?dophile discussing 'consentual p?dophilia'. it was very interesting and was online on freenet for a while.
[8:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> I forget its title but it was originally a dutch publication.
[8:17] <toad_> we grant kids protection from sex because although they might possibly want it at the time (and often they don't unless they are bribed, and hate the experience), they will probably regret it a lot later
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[8:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> the guy was an 'out of the closet' p?dophile
[8:17] <toad_> yeah, i've seen it, not read it though
[8:17] <toad_> The Radical Case
[8:17] <toad_> well i read the intro
[8:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> yes, I realise that
[8:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> yes, I realise that
[8:17] <toad_> someday i'll read the whole book
[8:18] <i2p_iip> <gott> but adults regret sex just the same. so I don't want to make a generalisation.
[8:18] <toad_> gott: indeed
[8:18] <toad_> adults sometimes regret sex too - but the question is one of whether kids and adults are the same
[8:18] <i2p_iip> <gott> I just know that when I was 12 years old, I wouldn't particularly mind reading erotica.
[8:18] <i2p_iip> <gott> six or seven ... I probably wouldn't have caredl.
[8:19] <i2p_iip> <gott> no sexual drive, it's just an apathy ... like doing homework.
[8:19] <i2p_iip> <gott> oh, now how avant-garde are we ? sex is apathy.
[8:19] <toad_> heh
[8:19] <toad_> are most of them gay btw?
[8:19] <i2p_iip> <gott> some are, some aren't.
[8:20] <i2p_iip> <gott> there's a large community that seems to be obsessed with 'cute, little girls'
[8:20] <i2p_iip> <gott> I IRCed with them once. The experience was ... 'sweet'. They seemed very loving and more interested in having a _relationship_ than having sex.
[8:21] <i2p_iip> <gott> Strange relationship with six year olds, though. But, regardless, the only thing barring that is government wishes.
[8:21] <toad_> so you can say that you wouldn't regret the experience if you'd had some guy that anally screwed you every week or so in exchange for sweets at the age of 7? you wouldn't have any regrets or troubles about it?
[8:22] <toad_> as a homosexual 18 year old?
[8:23] <toad_> completely ignoring any issues of physical harm caused by size differential :|
[8:23] <i2p_iip> <gott> well, why would I do it if I regret it ? You mean, regret in the future ? I would say that to love something and then to regret it later on is such a vast change, the only institution capable of giving that change is ... society !
[8:23] <toad_> well, you could love murdering somebody, and regret it later
[8:24] <toad_> or more likely you could murder somebody for money, spend the money, get caught, and regret it
[8:24] <i2p_iip> <gott> yes
[8:24] <i2p_iip> <gott> people 'abused' by p?dophiles are in many cases socialised to feel that way
[8:25] <i2p_iip> <gott> what the devil
[8:25] <i2p_iip> <gott> this bot seems to ignore some text from time to time
[8:25] <i2p_iip> <gott> this bot seems to ignore some text from time to time
[8:25] <toad_> strange
[8:25] <i2p_iip> <gott> argh
[8:25] <toad_> what did it ignore?
[8:25] <plixed_> censorbot ;-)
[8:25] <toad_> hehe
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[8:26] <i2p_iip> <gott> I think it doesn't work with colons very well
[8:26] <toad_> gott: I don't see any clear line of argument that it's entirely a result of society
[8:26] <i2p_iip> <gott> no, there is no generalisation possible, but it's important to remember that some relationships with children can work ( just as they did in historical times with romans and greeks )
[8:27] <toad_> well, you could call it "working" perhaps, but how do you define that?
[8:27] <toad_> romans, greeks, and the fagging system in the early 20th century
[8:27] <i2p_iip> <gott> but canada's age of consent is already pretty low ( 14 ). Unfortunately, erotica can't involve these 14 year olds.
[8:28] <toad_> yeah, i think that's a little strange
[8:28] <toad_> when can you marry?
[8:28] <toad_> when can you buy alcohol or tobacco?
[8:28] <i2p_iip> <gott> 16, I think.
[8:28] <toad_> when can you join the army?
[8:28] <i2p_iip> <gott> alcohol is 19 in some provinces, 18 in others.
[8:28] <i2p_iip> <gott> army is 16.
[8:28] <toad_> here it's 16 (18 for homo), 18, 18, 16
[8:28] <i2p_iip> <gott> driving is 15.
[8:28] <toad_> and 17 for driving and voting
[8:28] <toad_> very peculiar
[8:29] <i2p_iip> <gott> this is what happens when bureaucracy declares what is responsible and not responsible.
[8:29] <toad_> well.. fagging, and the greek and roman systems, and most child abuse, amounts to prostitution IMHO
[8:30] <i2p_iip> <gott> or apprenticeship
[8:30] <toad_> so it's a question of whether a 7 year old is competent to sell their body? I don't think so, personally
[8:30] <toad_> gott: sexual favours in exchange for ongoing training, yeah
[8:30] <toad_> it's still a form of trading sex for whatever you want
[8:30] <i2p_iip> <gott> Mmm. I love the diverse.
[8:31] <toad_> i don't think that subteen kids are competent to take that kind of decision, any more than they are competent to take on a $50K mortgage
[8:31] <i2p_iip> <gott> it depends on how large of a deal you view sex in and people these days are considering sex in a very apathetic way.
[8:31] <i2p_iip> <gott> sex is like coffee. You drink it down and you want more.
[8:32] <toad_> yeah, well, apathy and sex don't go together imho :)
[8:32] <i2p_iip> <gott> apathy for its moral issues
[8:32] <toad_> right
[8:32] <i2p_iip> <gott> FIND IT FUCK IT FORGET IT and so forth.
[8:32] <toad_> serial monogamy
[8:32] <toad_> sometimes with cycle times as low as a day
[8:33] <i2p_iip> <gott> you christians are usually against that. I choose to do my own thing and encourage everyone to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, but personally I prefer depth
[8:33] * toad_ objects to that, but isn't trying to enforce his views on anyone
[8:34] <toad_> age of consent should be the same as age of marriage.. adultery shouldn't be illegal though, that's insane
[8:34] <i2p_iip> <gott> everything should be legal.
[8:34] <toad_> you can't legislatively prevent all evil
[8:34] <i2p_iip> <gott> and morals should take the place of enforcement.
[8:35] <toad_> gott: then who protects the vulnerable? the infants? the vulnerable adults? the exploited workers?
[8:35] <i2p_iip> <gott> their loved ones.
[8:35] <toad_> you can say "if everyone always does what is right, then we don't need a government"... that doesn't actually help in telling how to make it happen
[8:35] <i2p_iip> <gott> and any other interested parties. I, for one, would protect you if you needed it, toad.
[8:35] <plixed_> protection is sometimes an euphemism for repression
[8:38] <i2p_iip> <gott> cunt
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[8:49] <toad_> sorry guys, was distracted for a while
[8:50] <toad_> by a request for information re videos so we can advance our B5 collection without buying stuff we already have :)
[8:50] <toad_> plixed_: indeed. for example, the workers can protect themselves - IF they are allowed to unionize.
[8:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad, you should give people hugs.
[8:51] * toad_ hugs gott
[8:51] <i2p_iip> <gott> =)
[8:51] <i2p_iip> <gott> =)
[8:52] <toad_> plixed_: well, to some degree anyway :)
[8:52] <toad_> bbiab
[8:53] <toad_> is there an i2p gateway to #freenet-chat or #freenet-politics?
[8:53] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad can be very nice sometimes.
[8:53] <toad_> could one be set up?
[8:53] <toad_> gott: whereas sometimes...?
[8:53] <i2p_iip> <gott> there is no gateway.
[8:53] <i2p_iip> <gott> well, sometimes you are very rude to me toad. but other times you give me hugs. you sure are jumpy ;-)
[8:53] <toad_> there is no spoon...
[8:54] <toad_> bbiab, maybe 20 minutes
[8:58] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> What is so great about the #freenet-politics and #freenet-chat?
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[9:14] <toad_> Sonax: it's not off topic if it's there
[9:14] <toad_> that's all
[9:14] <toad_> hi hobx_
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[9:54] <toad_> hmm
[9:54] <toad_> remarkably few spams today
[9:57] <hobx_> it is the silence before the storm
[9:58] <hobx_> I don't think that gmail is missing any posts
[9:59] <toad_> "I can block all useless network activity"... <unplugs network link>
[10:00] <toad_> updated: http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-800x25.png
[10:01] <hobx_> One thing I admire about you is your endless ability to speak to yourself.
[10:01] <toad_> thank you, that remark makes my life worth living
[10:01] <hobx_> I find myself amazingly fasinated and intelligent, and even I give up after a few mails.
[10:01] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[10:02] <toad_> </sarcam>
[10:02] <toad_> err </sarcasm>
[10:03] * toad_ is obliged to make this clear because otherwise online you get into all sorts of trouble with cross cultures and non-english-speakers
[10:03] <hobx_> the whole </sarcasm> thing sucks. If one points out that sarcasm is being started it loses its edge. If one doesn't the page fails to render!
[10:04] <hobx_> I don't think there are any chinese people around.
[10:07] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50-supersmooth.png
[10:08] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50.png
[10:08] <d-ArkAngel> the two plots without newbithits, what do they have for that? 200?
[10:08] <toad_> yup
[10:08] <toad_> the default
[10:08] <toad_> 200
[10:10] <d-ArkAngel> interesting that more connection switching shows worse perfromance in the short and long terms, but about the same in the medium term.
[10:10] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: well both 100 and 500 seem to suck...
[10:12] <d-ArkAngel> I wonder how we get on with offlinert and more connection switching.... surely that would help counter the problems by stopping us loseing information through the connection cycling...
[10:12] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: why does offlinert not help then with 200?
[10:13] <d-ArkAngel> I was thinking maybe because 200 has suficient time to learn the estimators for their connections...
[10:13] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-200x25-supersmooth.png
[10:13] <toad_> always falls eventually...
[10:14] <toad_> but it must be heading for an asymptote, and it looks like it may be at a reasonable value
[10:14] <toad_> even for purple and blue
[10:15] <toad_> good, those are still running... i think...
[10:15] <toad_> they are indeed still running
[10:15] <toad_> please don't reboot hard-core :)
[10:15] <d-ArkAngel> ok :-)
[10:16] <d-ArkAngel> Helen pleaded with me to turn it off saturday night, but I told her what it was doing and she allowed me to leave it on :-)
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[10:16] <toad_> given the inevitable fall, it's likely that HTL 22 will not be sufficient with 400 node networks
[10:16] <d-ArkAngel> I can live with it, so won't be a problem through the week.
[10:16] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: cool!
[10:17] <toad_> clear from http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-400x50-supersmooth.png
[10:17] <toad_> so I suppose I should try 23
[10:17] <toad_> and it seems unlikely that 28 is enough for 800
[10:17] <d-ArkAngel> One thing to remember, there's no UPS on that box... if there was a power outage it'll die...
[10:17] <toad_> it seems unlikely that even 29 is :(
[10:17] <hobx_> women - ever the enemy of scientific progress.
[10:17] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yeah, I ought to write that serialization code...
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[10:18] <d-ArkAngel> you had a look at the threaded sutf I've commited yet?
[10:18] <toad_> hobx_: no, relationships are the enemy of scientific progress... women can be cool
[10:19] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: not deeply..
[10:19] <toad_> you making significant progress?
[10:19] <d-ArkAngel> yes
[10:19] <d-ArkAngel> I'm still working on connection negotation between threads, but it's looking like it'll work ok
[10:20] <toad_> compare: http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-800x25.png to http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-800x25-supersmooth.png
[10:20] <d-ArkAngel> I was doing synchonisation using waiting, but I've found it much better to do it with interrupts in the end, so I've done it that way arround
[10:20] <toad_> the latter looks a little too smooth to me
[10:21] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: interrupts?
[10:21] <toad_> what do you mean?
[10:22] <toad_> if it takes 32 HTL to get the targetted performance at 800 nodes, we have problems
[10:22] <toad_> and that's plausible from the first graph...
[10:22] <d-ArkAngel> in java threads can have interrupts, so if a thread has no work to do it can be woken, but also so that when it is running, somoene trying to communicate with it doesn't break what it's doing, it's just noted and then proccessed by the look when it's needed.
[10:23] <toad_> ah
[10:23] <toad_> that's the same as wait isn't it?
[10:23] <toad_> ah
[10:23] <toad_> sleep
[10:23] <toad_> yeah
[10:23] <toad_> it interrupts a sleep
[10:23] <hobx_> It depends more on how it scales than the constant
[10:23] <hobx_> if it takes HTL 32 with 800, and 40 with a billion, then nobody is in trouble
[10:24] <d-ArkAngel> and the interrupt can be handled by a buffer object so the main workin threads don't ever stop working, unless the buffers choak
[10:24] <toad_> hobx_: indeed
[10:25] <toad_> hobx_: at 100 nodes, you need 11. At 200, you need 16 (might be 15). at 400, i'm reasonably sure 23 will suffice. at 800, we're not sure, we tried 28, but that looks a bit too low.
[10:25] <d-ArkAngel> plus that's with 50 interconnects. we have a little more than that on live.
[10:26] <toad_> sure, but we have thousands of nodes on live
[10:26] <toad_> log or even log^2 is acceptable for # connections... large numbers of conns don't help much on smaller networks
[10:26] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, but it depends on how things realte
[10:26] <d-ArkAngel> relate even
[10:26] <toad_> :)
[10:27] <hobx_> Of course note that too my knowledge while the expected step length is known under the Kleinberg model, nobody has derived a concentration result AFAIK, so it could be that many queries require much more than the average.
[10:27] <toad_> hobx_: many queries? you mean load balancing?
[10:27] <d-ArkAngel> more HTL
[10:28] <hobx_> no, I mean that even if the average is low, a lot of queries can end up cut off.
[10:28] <toad_> our load distribution looks very promising on all the current graphs
[10:28] <toad_> hobx_: ah
[10:28] <toad_> yeah
[10:28] <toad_> hobx_: the tail
[10:29] <toad_> but it's not possible that as it scales, the success probability plummets despite the average hops taken for a successful request being log?
[10:29] <toad_> well not in a kleinberg network probably... quite possible on freenet...
[10:29] <hobx_> i dunno
[10:29] <toad_> because the model for kleinberg doesn't take chopped off reqs into account at all
[10:29] <toad_> so the average includes the really long ones
[10:30] <toad_> whereas NGR uses the probability of DNF in routing
[10:30] <d-ArkAngel> I would have thought that the problme would have been more likely that on larger networks the speed of leaning is unacceptably slow.
[10:30] <toad_> hobx_: anyway, even if it is log, the constant then becomes a problem
[10:31] <toad_> if it's 7 per doubling, then it's 20 per factor of 10
[10:31] <toad_> and a realistic sized network needs 50+ HTL
[10:31] <toad_> 90 for a million nodes
[10:31] <toad_> brb
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[11:01] <toad_> this is probably why 0.3 had a max htl of 100...
[11:18] <Teknosaur> .
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[12:02] <d-ArkAngel> back
[12:02] <d-ArkAngel> (bloody internet connection went out here :-(
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[14:14] <brann> hi. isnt there a non java node software somewhere?
[14:14] <hobx_> no
[14:15] <brann> and isnt it planned at least?
[14:15] <hobx_> I think the plan calls for getting things to actually work before time is spent on alternative versions of the software.
[14:16] <hobx_> A lot of people who claimed they would write nodes in other languages have come and gone over the years. Mostly when they discovered how nontrivial it is.
[14:16] <brann> well, i just dont understand the choice of java over c++ for example
[14:17] <hobx_> The choice was due to speed and ease of development.
[14:17] <hobx_> Which is rather helpful when you are prototyping experimental software.
[14:18] <brann> ok. makes sense....even if it could be arguable that coding in java isnt faster than in c++ if correctly done
[14:19] <hobx_> You could argue that it isn't faster for you.
[14:19] <hobx_> You certainly couldn't argue that it isn't faster for me.
[14:19] <brann> lol:) makes sense again:) so u are the main coder of the project ?
[14:20] <hobx_> not any more.
[14:20] <hobx_> "toad_" codes now
[14:20] <brann> ok
[14:21] <hobx_> Honestly, starting over from scratch would not be such a bad idea, either for the software or the protocol at this point, IMO
[14:21] <brann> well i have seen this project like 2 years ago, when it was mostly some theory, i'm glad it's alive now
[14:22] <hobx_> But I don't think that anybody dares.
[14:22] <hobx_> I don't think much has changed in two years honestly.
[14:22] <hobx_> I've been here five years, and things are more less as they were three years ago.
[14:23] <brann> strange, arent people enthousiast about it?
[14:24] <hobx_> enthusiastic?
[14:25] <brann> yes sorry
[14:25] <hobx_> Maybe some people are.
[14:25] <hobx_> I'm jaded and cynical.
[14:26] <brann> well u speak as if u was thinking it's a dead project
[14:26] <jay> brann: if you want to know for sure, read the mailing list archives
[14:27] <hobx_> The rider isn't dead, he is beating for all his worth, but this particular horse is beginning to smell...
[14:28] <brann> why? are there some problems in the concept? are people exhausted of working on it? are u all mad about java?
[14:28] <brann> :)
[14:28] * kers (~kers@133.ppp141.rsd.worldonline.se) has joined #freenet
[14:29] <hobx_> I think that the project has run into problems that can only solved by taking a huge step back and slaughtering a whole herd of holy cows.
[14:30] <brann> i can provide a few cows if needed, i'm from normandy :)
[14:31] <brann> btw, if u take crypto related issues aside, is it really difficult to code a node? i mean harder than for other p2p stuff?
[14:32] <hobx_> well, crypto related issues a big part of it.
[14:32] * brann (~tdo@81.56.138.17) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[14:32] <hobx_> But yes, I would say so.
[14:32] <hobx_> Of course, I have never written any other p2p stuff, so I can't say for sure.
[14:32] * brann (~tdo@lns-vlq-39f-81-56-138-17.adsl.proxad.net) has joined #freenet
[14:32] <brann> back
[14:32] <hobx_> But yes, I would say so.
[14:32] <hobx_> Of course, I have never written any other p2p stuff, so I can't say for sure.
[14:33] <brann> sorry,i've missed ur answer:(
[14:33] <hobx_> well, crypto related issues a big part of it.
[14:33] <hobx_> But yes, I would say so.
[14:33] <hobx_> Of course, I have never written any other p2p stuff, so I can't say for sure.
[14:33] <brann> ok
[14:34] <brann> well i'll look into the code.. unfortunately i have no time to try to make things move:(
[14:35] <brann> it's a pity i have to work to earn some money :(
[14:36] <hobx_> could be worse
[14:36] <brann> definetely..
[14:37] <brann> what are u doing in life?
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[15:17] <d-ArkAngel> Evening all
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[15:26] <d-ArkAngel> toad_: you know you've got 3 sims running on my DP box yeah?
[15:34] * Zorix (Brandon@fl-69-34-0-219.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) has joined #freenet
[15:41] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> Is this bad/somthing i can do somthing about?: "java.io.IOException: Attempt to use a released TempFileBucket: /path_to_freenet/freenet/store/temp/tbf_60defedc"
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[16:11] -lilo- [Global Notice] Good evening, all! Service interruption in several hours: for more information see http://freenode.net/news.shtml .... thanks!
[16:13] <lolo-laptop> 11GiB transferred in 2 days 4 hours and 59 minutes... good? bad? ugly?
[16:13] <lolo-laptop> 50000 output limit
[16:13] <plixed_> good
[16:14] <hobx_> Using "Gi" a prefix: bad
[16:14] <lolo-laptop> hobx_: why?
[16:14] <hobx_> cause only anal stuff-wads do it.
[16:14] <lolo-laptop> hmm...
[16:14] <lolo-laptop> I think it is important to be precise about what you are talking about...
[16:15] <lolo-laptop> I have a 200GB hdd which holds 190GiB... I have a 30GB hdd for my freenet store which allows me to use a 28GiB store...
[16:15] <hobx_> Anal stuff-wads tend to..
[16:15] * lolo-laptop pouts
[16:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> it's best to ignore hobx, lolo-laptop. He is a troll.
[16:17] <lolo-laptop> hahahahaha
[16:17] <hobx_> The trolls troll is a, hmmm...
[16:18] <hobx_> You are just jealous that I am better at it than you Got.
[16:18] <i2p_iip> <gott> of course you are better at it than me. I am not a troll.
[16:19] <hobx_> indeed
[16:20] <hobx_> You are an insightful, salient commentator the developers sexual dispositions...
[16:21] <i2p_iip> <gott> correct
[16:21] <greycat> Can you smell the love?
[16:21] <lolo-laptop> I love this channel
[16:22] <i2p_iip> <gott> greycat, I have seen your freesite.
[16:22] <greycat> not today, I should hope...
[16:22] <greycat> 'cause if you've seen it today, then someone's got my keypair. :/
[16:23] <d-ArkAngel> so your output limit is 400Kbit/s right?
[16:23] <i2p_iip> <gott> no
[16:23] <i2p_iip> <gott> ages ago
[16:23] <lolo-laptop> d-ArkAngel: you talking to me? it is set to 50000bytes/s
[16:23] <greycat> UPS tracking says my new computer parts should arrive tomorrow...
[16:23] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, which is 400,000 K bits/s
[16:24] <greycat> d-ArkAngel: no, 400,000 bits/s
[16:24] <lolo-laptop> good point
[16:24] <lolo-laptop> hehe
[16:24] <lolo-laptop> amusement
[16:24] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, sorry
[16:25] <hobx_> all the units details!
[16:26] <hobx_> three orders of magnitude here or there!
[16:26] <d-ArkAngel> :-P
[16:26] <greycat> or maybe he meant the european comma, which is a decimal point
[16:26] * d-ArkAngel wishes ;-)
[16:26] <hobx_> he
[16:26] <hobx_> I have issues with that when teaching.
[16:27] <hobx_> I write 0.123 but I say "zero comma one two three" since that is the only thing that makes sense in swedish.
[16:27] <hobx_> The students glare angrily. But then, they kind of do that all the time...
[16:27] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) has joined #freenet
[16:29] <greycat> as long as you're consistent, I'd imagine they can adapt
[16:30] <d-ArkAngel> since when dose it matter if people can understand you. The whole point of learning mathmatics is to be able to confuse people to death :-)
[16:30] <i2p_iip> <gott> you should give your students hugs, hobx
[16:31] <hobx_> gott: Not teaching chemists this quarter, but otherwise good idea.
[16:31] <d-ArkAngel> easy way to win points with students in chem lessons is to teach them how to make C4
[16:32] <hobx_> I didn't mean teaching chem.
[16:32] <d-ArkAngel> ;-)
[16:32] <greycat> teaching math to chem students...
[16:32] <hobx_> I just meant that at least around here chemistry seems to attract a higher concentration of students one might wish to hug.
[16:32] <d-ArkAngel> ahhhh ;-)
[16:33] <greycat> it's pheromones...
[16:33] <hobx_> :-)
[16:34] <d-ArkAngel> can't you get in trouble for things like that? :-)
[16:34] <hobx_> Nah...
[16:35] <hobx_> But the grade bonuses were apparently one step too far...
[16:36] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[16:36] <d-ArkAngel> you only say that when the spotty geeks were more interested in getting the grades :-)
[16:37] <hobx_> The whole "sexual attitudes reeducation" thing is getting easier every time anyways.
[16:42] * TLF (~francisco@226.Red-81-40-116.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
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[17:03] * nextgens (~nextgens@d213-103-53-159.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[17:04] <nextgens> hi
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[17:39] <lolo-laptop> damnit, just restarted my node accidentally
[17:39] <lolo-laptop> I suck.
[17:45] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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[17:54] <nextgens> toad: are you here?
[17:55] <jay> nextgens: he's been idle for 6 hours now
[17:56] <nextgens> jay: thx
[17:56] <jay> he'll prolly be here later
[17:56] <nextgens> perhaps someone else could help ...
[17:56] <nextgens> I 'm having a new kind of problem
[17:56] <jay> the chan is logged and he reads them
[17:57] <nextgens> running my stable node : 96
[17:57] <nextgens> My logs are FLOODED with various Rate limiting errors
[17:58] <nextgens> BUT my node isn't overloaded AND my bandwidth is still the same as before :(
[17:58] * Teknosaur (~teknosaur@cpe-24-165-55-188.hawaii.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[17:59] <nextgens> Uptime: ? 0 days, ? 0 hours, ? 47 minutes
[17:59] <nextgens> Current routingTime: 0ms.
[17:59] <nextgens> Pooled threads running jobs: 53 ? ? (58.9%) ? [Rejecting incoming connections and requests!]
[17:59] <nextgens> Pooled threads which are idle: 21
[17:59] <nextgens> It's normal for the node to sometimes reject connections or requestsfor a limited period. If you're seeing rejections continuously the nodeis overloaded or something is wrong (i.e. a bug).Current estimated load for rate limiting: 1,883.7%.
[17:59] <nextgens> Load due to thread limit = 58.9%
[17:59] <nextgens> Load due to routingTime = 10% = 100ms / 1000ms <= overloadLow (100%)
[17:59] <nextgens> Load due to messageSendTimeRequest = 1,883.7% = 9418ms / 500ms > overloadLow (100%)
[17:59] <nextgens> Loaddue to output bandwidth limiting = 10% because outputBytes(52728) <=limit (528000.008 ) = outLimitCutoff (0.8) * outputBandwidthLimit(11000) * 60
[17:59] <nextgens> Load due to expected inbound transfers: 1.4% because: 3902.210553681871req/hr * 0.003867568560000004 (pTransfer) * 187463.0 bytes = 2829204bytes/hr expected from current requests, but maxInputBytes/minute =3000000 (set input limit) * 60 * 1.1 = 198000000 bytes/hr target
[17:59] <nextgens> Load due to expected outbound transfers: 54.3% because:16058.667492631934 req/hr * 0.0050(995 0s, 5 1s, 1000 total)(pTransfer) * 187463.0 bytes = 15052029 bytes/hr expected from currentrequests, but maxOutputBytes/minute = 461999 * 60 = 27719999 bytes/hrtarget
[17:59] <nextgens> Current estimated load for QueryRejecting: 58.9%.
[17:59] <nextgens>
[17:59] <nextgens> sorry for the flood ...
[17:59] <nextgens> in the logs, all errors are flaged NORMAL
[18:00] <nextgens> Minimum request interval violated!
[18:00] <nextgens> AARGH: couldn't send freenet.RateLimitingViolationMessage
[18:01] <nextgens> Exceeded maximum failure count
[18:01] <nextgens> Failed to send
[18:01] <nextgens> Got ridiculously late freenet.message.DataReply on freenet.node.states.request.RequestDone
[18:01] <nextgens> various (new to me) messages ...
[18:01] <nextgens> and my node is unusable ...
[18:02] <nextgens> I even stopped all my request threads, ... restarted, reseeded, ...
[18:02] <jay> do you have any incoming connections?
[18:03] <jay> and 47 minutes isn't that much time
[18:03] <jay> if it's a brand new install that is
[18:03] <nextgens> Connections?open?(Inbound/Outbound/Limit)90?(76/14/200)Transfers?active?(Transmitting/Receiving)16?(14/2)Data waiting to be transmitted/received166?KiB/NoneAmount of data transmitted/received over currently open connections1,484?KiB/5,344?KiBTotal amount of data transmitted/received2,416?KiB/10?MiBNumber of distinct nodes connected90
[18:03] <nextgens> it isn't a new install
[18:04] <nextgens> but I think the amount of data transfered is ridiculous compared it should be
[18:04] <jay> thos messages are already known and common more or less on my node as well
[18:04] <nextgens> but I get flooded by them ...
[18:04] <nextgens> and my node is nearly always unreachable (rejecting connexions)
[18:05] <jay> yeah that's not normal
[18:05] <jay> what os and all that?
[18:05] * kers (~kers@133.ppp141.rsd.worldonline.se) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[18:05] <nextgens> my logsize is 10M big in 'only' 47 mins :-(
[18:05] <nextgens> LogLevel=Normal
[18:06] <nextgens> running on linux 2.6.8.1 using JVM 1.5 rc -latest before it was relased
[18:06] <jay> did it work ok with 1.4?
[18:07] <nextgens> 1.5.0-rc-b63
[18:07] <nextgens> no it didn't using 5095
[18:07] <nextgens> i switched to 1.5.0-rc-b63 ... it worked fine
[18:08] <nextgens> and 5096 was working fine till 2 days
[18:08] <nextgens> and now it really sucks
[18:08] <jay> on linux it works fine with 1.4.2_05
[18:08] <jay> i've heard some success and some problems with 1.5 so far
[18:09] <nextgens> I'll try with an older one so ...
[18:09] <jay> make sure it's the latest 1.4.2
[18:09] <jay> there's 5 versions of 1.4.2 alone
[18:09] <nextgens> is the one on java.sun.com the latest?
[18:10] <jay> yes
[18:10] <nextgens> ok, i'll download it and try
[18:10] <nextgens> thanks for your advices...
[18:10] <jay> welcome
[18:19] * nextgens installing JRE
[18:19] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-082-082-157-113.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:21] * nextgens restarting freenet
[18:23] <toad_> hi ppl
[18:24] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) Quit ("Client exiting")
[18:25] <nextgens> hi toad_
[18:26] <toad_> <d-ArkAngel> toad_: you know you've got 3 sims running on my DP box yeah? - yup
[18:26] <toad_> <i2p_iip> <Sonax> Is this bad/somthing i can do somthing about?: "java.io.IOException: Attempt to use a released TempFileBucket: /path_to_freenet/freenet/store/temp/tbf_60defedc" - what OS?
[18:27] <toad_> <i2p_iip> <gott> it's best to ignore hobx, lolo-laptop. He is a troll. - ROFL!
[18:28] <i2p_iip> <gott> there is beauty in truth.
[18:29] <toad_> <hobx_> I just meant that at least around here chemistry seems to attract a higher concentration of students one might wish to hug. - curious... more female chemists than mathematicians... i suppose chem is close to biochem, is cool, mainstream, sexy, etc. high demand.
[18:29] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit (Client Quit)
[18:30] <toad_> <nextgens> My logs are FLOODED with various Rate limiting errors
[18:30] <toad_> <nextgens> BUT my node isn't overloaded AND my bandwidth is still the same as before :(
[18:30] <toad_> hmmm
[18:32] * P4C0 (~paco@201.225.117.194) has joined #freenet
[18:32] <P4C0> hello
[18:32] <nextgens> toad_: I restarted my node 5 mins ago to use JRE 1.4.2 and now, everything seems to be better : I got only 5 waited more than 120000ms in NIOIS.read() errors
[18:32] <nextgens> hello
[18:33] <nextgens> Connections?open?(Inbound/Outbound/Limit)103?(97/6/200)Transfers?active?(Transmitting/Receiving)8?(4/4)Data waiting to be transmitted/received44?KiB/NoneAmount of data transmitted/received over currently open connections571?KiB/905?KiBTotal amount of data transmitted/received694?KiB/1,135?KiBNumber of distinct nodes connected103
[18:33] <toad_> nextgens: just possible it's a kernel issue...
[18:34] <toad_> P4C0: hi
[18:34] <toad_> nextgens: hmmm
[18:34] <P4C0> I had used freenet some time ago, and it was really slow, with a lot of broken links so I stop using it, I know that the more you use it the more it learns and becomes faster, but I could't found anything interesting for me, it was really unstable in thouse days, what about know?
[18:34] <P4C0> now (sorry)
[18:34] <toad_> P4C0: when did you last try it, and for how long, on what connection, and was it behind a firewall/NAT/etc?
[18:36] <P4C0> toad_, no firewall, mmm like 8 mouths ago or something like that maybe more, that's the problem I only have a 128 downstream and 64 upstream... :(
[18:36] <nextgens> toad_: a kernel issue? Isn't my home compiled/patched kernel good enough to run freenet? lol
[18:36] <toad_> P4C0: well, that's a problem...
[18:36] <P4C0> but I have a fixed public ip address... this is good right? I was thinking in give it a second try, cause I really like the idea
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[18:36] <toad_> nextgens: yes but there's an issue with 2.4.8 and tcp windows
[18:36] <toad_> 2.4.8.1
[18:36] * bartman (~bart@62.217.57.66) has left #freenet
[18:37] <toad_> P4C0: fixed IP address helps... having bandwidth well below the norm doesn't
[18:37] <toad_> are you firewalled? are you able to receive incoming connections?
[18:37] <P4C0> toad_, what's the norm?
[18:37] <toad_> P4C0: 256 up, a lot more down.. down doesn't matter
[18:37] <toad_> 128 often
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[18:37] <toad_> 256 is better, and fairly common where i live
[18:37] <toad_> but we get people from all over
[18:38] * toad_ has 256 and is a core dev...
[18:38] <P4C0> toad_, what about hd size?
[18:38] <toad_> P4C0: big datastores definitely help
[18:38] <toad_> they're not vital but they help
[18:38] <P4C0> how big?
[18:39] <toad_> dunno, I use 20GB iirc...
[18:39] <nextgens> toad_: I'm running 2.6.8.1 -> i'll update if you say it may help... but I'll wait for 2.6.9 to be released
[18:39] <toad_> nextgens: there are political issues... read about it on kerneltrap.org
[18:39] <toad_> or LWN
[18:39] <toad_> nextgens: broken routers on various ISPs
[18:39] <toad_> nextgens: increasing the window size exposes the brokenness
[18:40] <toad_> kernels up to 2.6.7 inclusive didn't increase the window size that much
[18:40] <toad_> 2.6.8+ do
[18:40] <toad_> it's like the ECN
[18:40] <nextgens> toad_: can't I reduce it using the /proc interface?
[18:40] <P4C0> toad_, one cuestion... if my upload is slow and I give it a lot of disk space, wouldn't that slow the net? (maybe not just me, but if a lot of people do the same?)
[18:41] <toad_> kernel devs naively expect that the problem will get fixed, because linux runs a lot of the back-office servers. the sad truth is that domestic ISPs don't care, because all their customers run on windows, and they use the hacked kernel from redhat, or suse, or whomever, which doesn't have the change
[18:41] <toad_> nextgens: yes
[18:41] <toad_> nextgens: not sure what the parameter is
[18:41] <toad_> P4C0: no
[18:41] <toad_> P4C0: it's clever
[18:41] <P4C0> any problems with kernel 2.4.6?
[18:41] <nextgens> arhg! it beggins to flood my logs
[18:42] <toad_> P4C0: no
[18:42] <toad_> there isn't a big problem with 2.6.8
[18:42] <nextgens> Oct 11, 2004 11:44:11 PM (freenet.RateLimitingViolationMessage, PeerMessage expiration thread, NORMAL): AARGH: couldn't send freenet.RateLimitingViolationMessage@196af5d@freenet.PeerHandler@1a2cc03 (DSA(85ce 8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!430b 7be5 6476 e0e6),tcp/213.5.32.172:11875, sessions=1, presentations=3, ID=DSA(85ce!!!!!!!be5 6476 e0e6), version=Fred,0.5,STABLE-1.50,5096): outbound attempts=0:0/0 on freenet.PeerHandler@1a2cc03 (DSA(85ce 8429 f1
[18:42] <toad_> it shouldn't cause what nextgens sees
[18:42] <toad_> but it does cause not being able to get to greycat's dyndns pagw
[18:42] <toad_> page
[18:43] <nextgens> yes ... in ten mins, i won't be able even to load the main page :-(
[18:44] <toad_> nextgens: well it looks like either a) you need to fix the bug (there's a sysctl for it), b) CPU usage, or c) bandwidth
[18:44] * nextgens reading about the kernel issue
[18:44] <toad_> well a thing you put in /etc/systhingy
[18:45] <toad_> and in proc to activate it immediately
[18:45] <nextgens> 23:47:20 up 1 day, 11:51, 2 users, load average: 0.61, 0.80, 1.04
[18:45] <nextgens> not pandwidth either : PING ovh.net (213.186.33.6) 56(84) bytes of data.
[18:45] <nextgens> 64 bytes from ouaib.ovh.net (213.186.33.6): icmp_seq=1 ttl=57 time=74.6 ms
[18:45] <toad_> woah
[18:45] <nextgens> toad_: I even added RAM ;-)
[18:47] <nextgens> toad_: in changelog :[TCP]: Add tcp_tso_win_divisor sysctl
[18:47] <toad_> hmmm
[18:47] <toad_> does bash have any way of handling lists?
[18:47] <toad_> nextgens: i rarely read the changelogs, they're always massive...
[18:48] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-epass-0.025-800x25.png updated
[18:48] <nextgens> toad_: lol : but it's changelog from 2.6.9-rc4, to 2.6.9 :-(
[18:48] <toad_> nextgens: that's wierd
[18:48] <toad_> nextgens: i'm sure there's a sysctl here on 2.6.8.1
[18:48] <toad_> did they change the default?
[18:50] <nextgens> toad_: this one perhaps ? /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_window_scaling
[18:50] <nextgens> toad_: /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale
[18:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad
[18:50] <toad_> bbiab
[18:51] <toad_> nextgens: the latter i think
[18:51] <nextgens> toad_: /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_default_win_scale it"s this one!
[18:51] <toad_> there's a good description of it on some site somewhere
[18:51] <toad_> lwn maybe... google for that /proc entry
[18:51] <nextgens> toad_: on 2.6.7 : = 0
[18:51] <toad_> bbiab
[18:51] <nextgens> toad_: on 2.6.8.1 = 7
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[22:23] -dmwaters- {global notice} Hi all! In about 4.5 hours we are going to take a major outage for some server upgrades. Please see 'http://freenode.net/news.shtml' for more info. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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[22:59] <Redb3ard> bah
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
