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[0:29] <yonkel-cluster> greycat: if i want to add the extra 3gb later can i just change the value in the conf file and restart freenet?
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[2:21] -dmwaters- {global notice} Hi all! It looks as though our main EU hub has died. I'm currently looking at the problem. Any further messages about this will be given in wallops '/mode +w your_nick' Thanks for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
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[4:29] <snake> hi all
[4:30] <ShaunMacPherson> hi
[4:30] <snake> i have some questions about freenet !
[4:30] <snake> it's concerning proxies and NAT
[4:30] <snake> can i connect throught them ?
[4:31] <snake> using an http port (80 or 443)
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[4:37] <ShaunMacPherson> let me see
[4:37] <ShaunMacPherson> yes
[4:37] <ShaunMacPherson> it is also a good idea to use dyndns.org to get a static host
[4:37] <ShaunMacPherson> you can set any port you want in the config file
[4:38] <ShaunMacPherson> hmm http port, im not sureabout that though...
[4:41] <snake> i am not talking about listening port
[4:41] <snake> but about connect port
[4:41] <snake> i am behind a firewall
[4:41] <snake> and the only program i saw that just works is Skype (www.skype.com)
[4:42] <snake> it would be nice to have freenet really free to use for everyone
[4:42] <snake> even those who are behind stupid firewalls (university, job ...)
[4:44] <ShaunMacPherson> let me see
[4:45] <ShaunMacPherson> If you can't forward the ports that might be hard to do, I think someone was in here before asking the same question :)
[4:46] <snake> there are many like me who asks the same question
[4:46] <snake> the idea behind this
[4:46] <snake> behind skype : is that people not behind firewalls relay
[4:46] <snake> those behind it
[4:47] <ShaunMacPherson> hmm
[4:47] <ShaunMacPherson> is skype freesoftware?
[4:47] <snake> unfortunately no
[4:47] <snake> if it was i would have already digged in it's source code
[4:47] <ShaunMacPherson> :)
[4:48] <ShaunMacPherson> I am looking this up, it looks like a very interesting idea, wikipedia seems to have an article on it also
[4:48] <snake> i really would like to see a real pear to pear network
[4:48] <snake> about skype?
[4:48] <ShaunMacPherson> ya
[4:48] <ShaunMacPherson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype
[4:48] <snake> thx
[4:48] <ShaunMacPherson> It seems to be free to download, maybe it will be refeverse engineered
[4:49] <ShaunMacPherson> also try this one http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype
[4:50] <snake> i prefer the english version
[4:50] <snake> :)
[4:50] <ShaunMacPherson> :D
[4:50] <ShaunMacPherson> the english version is usually better
[4:50] <snake> ShaunMacPherson: i don't know why reverse engineer it
[4:51] <ShaunMacPherson> Maybe someone already is working on a free version of Skype
[4:51] <snake> hmmmm
[4:51] <snake> i don't think so
[4:51] <snake> since skype connect to a central node before
[4:52] <ShaunMacPherson> ah :
[4:52] <ShaunMacPherson> :)
[4:52] <snake> so
[4:52] <snake> can i hope for a really freenet ?
[4:53] <ShaunMacPherson> I am not sure, I dont know enough but it maybe possible - i will ask some ppl but you could ask on the devl or tech freenet list
[4:54] <snake> ok thx
[4:54] <ShaunMacPherson> http://mail.freenetproject.org/mailman/listinfo/support/
[4:54] <ShaunMacPherson> I will ask too on a few other boards
[4:58] <snake> just an other question
[4:58] <snake> do you know where can i get a specification
[4:58] <snake> telling me how to connect through a proxy ?
[4:59] <ShaunMacPherson> hmmm
[4:59] <ShaunMacPherson> a proxy would work
[4:59] <ShaunMacPherson> its hard to find a free proxy though
[4:59] <snake> yes
[5:00] <snake> i am already behind a proxy
[5:00] <ShaunMacPherson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server
[5:00] <snake> and i try to write a proxy chaining script
[5:00] <ShaunMacPherson> i think you'll have to connect to an exteral proxy
[5:00] <snake> i need to connect to an external proxy throught the current proxy
[5:00] <snake> some external proxies are set up on port 80
[5:01] <ShaunMacPherson> I think Freenet has external proxy support also...
[5:01] <ShaunMacPherson> I've never had to use it though
[5:01] <snake> university proxy -> external proxy -> the net
[5:02] <ShaunMacPherson> yes
[5:02] <ShaunMacPherson> do you have an exteral proxy though?
[5:02] <ShaunMacPherson> usually you have to pay $$ for them
[5:02] <ShaunMacPherson> or get someone to donate their computer :)
[5:02] <snake> i got one
[5:02] <ShaunMacPherson> you do?
[5:03] <ShaunMacPherson> Toad is the main guy here, he will know how to set one up, I really have no clue lol! I did a proxy once though, though the university to connect to specific websites
[5:04] <snake> i think i found a free list on the net
[5:04] <ShaunMacPherson> really?
[5:04] <snake> wait
[5:04] <snake> i am trying to find it again
[5:05] <ShaunMacPherson> Toad would also know if using a proxy is a good idea or not, you may have to trust it...
[5:06] <snake> where is that Toad ?
[5:06] <ShaunMacPherson> Toad isnt here for some reason, although it is Sunday and he gets paid :)
[5:06] <ShaunMacPherson> So I guess its his day off
[5:07] <ShaunMacPherson> (He works full time on Freenet, Toad that is, although if you use the mailing list I am sure other ppl would know)
[5:09] <snake> the problem is that i get always the same answer
[5:10] <ShaunMacPherson> what do they tell you?
[5:11] <snake> http://www.proxy4free.com/page1.html
[5:11] <snake> everyone tell me that i need to contact the admin
[5:11] <snake> so he opens the needed ports
[5:12] <ShaunMacPherson> Hmmm I have no clue how that works... you may need a password
[5:13] <snake> nop
[5:13] <ShaunMacPherson> :o)
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[10:07] <hobx_> Flees the size rats sucked on rats the size of cats
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[15:48] <yonkel-cluster> if i steal someone else's seednode.ref file, will my node know about more nodes on the network or will i still have to wait a long time?
[15:50] <guido^pe> How do you mean, "steal"?
[15:52] <guido^pe> Well, Freenet has a function, available through the web interface, where a node can export its routing table in a seednodes.ref file
[15:54] <yonkel-cluster> yeah
[15:54] <yonkel-cluster> if someone else gives me their seednodes.ref file....will it help my node go faster?
[15:54] <guido^pe> If you have a well-connected node a somewhere and a poorly connected one b, and then copy the exported seednodes.ref from to the freenet dir of b, and then force b to reseed, b will be beter connected afterwards
[15:56] <guido^pe> yonkel-cluster: If the other guy, however, just gives you the seednodes.ref file from his freenet dir, that won't achieve a thing, as fred doesn't update seednodes.ref
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[16:47] <yonkel-cluster> so if i restart my computer without stopping freenet, will it keep all knowledge of the nodes it learned about
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[18:06] <guido^pe> yonkel-cluster: yes, it will. It stores them in several files starting with rt_ in its main dir
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[19:29] <aga> hi, maybe someone over here could advise me on freenet daemon behaviour:
[19:30] <aga> yesterday I started two 5096 freenet nodes, and after while I see in the directory store/temp/ files with suspicious sizes:
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[19:31] <aga> 7 of size 1050081, 3 of size 525121, 5 of size 262641 - note that they all are just a bit over a power of 2
[19:31] <aga> and all the files have relatively old timestamp, 10 minutes to many hours
[19:32] <aga> does it indicate that freenet downloaded them, and then forgot about them (thus having the traffic used wasted)?
[19:44] <aga> anyone knows what does that mean? have the same stuff within store/temp/ directory? can suggest where more information can be obtained about the files (via port 8888 ?)
[19:52] <d-ArkAngel> to be honest I don't know what they are, they could be files that it has retireved on behalf of another node and is in the progess of sending on. I don't know what the /temp folder is for really.
[19:58] <aga> as far as I observed, the files within store/temp are files freenet daemon downloads right now. Usually they keep growing in size, then get moved/renamed into other directories within store/; sometimes they just disappear with error ?waited read for more than 120000ms?; but some stay there indefinitelly and those always have size of 2^n+delta and that?s worrysome (seeing the overall poor network performance etc).
[19:59] <d-ArkAngel> as you say it could well be some kind of bug. have you restarted your node at all? they could be "left over" files that it's forgotten about...
[20:01] <d-ArkAngel> might be worth posting to the newsgroup see what kinda response you get.
[20:01] <d-ArkAngel> it's usually pretty quite in here on sunday nights
[20:03] <aga> restarting clears everything in store/tmp/. But then, I start to hate having bandwidth wasted so fruitlessly. Even on 10mbod connected server, I could waste bandwidth for other things/toys
[20:03] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[20:04] <d-ArkAngel> don't thinkof it as wasted... think of it as contributed to the development and debugging of freenet :-)
[20:13] * mikeDOTd (~mikedotd@12.30.47.94) has joined #freenet
[20:16] <Ash-Fox> yes... because we don't like to hear that we wasted our time, it's depressing
[20:17] <d-ArkAngel> besides, we don't know what it's used for... maybe freenet is becoming sentient and that's part of it's brain! *bwhahaha* ;-)
[20:18] <d-ArkAngel> sorry it's late and I've been stareing at simulator code for too long :-)
[20:20] <Ash-Fox> toad_ has written secret back doors in it... and since nobody else develops in freenet, and it's opensource... NOBODY SUSPECTS THE SPANISH INQUSITION IS BEHIND THIS
[20:21] <aga> well I hope that helps delvelopers. But I think I will now take both freenet nodes down. My original intenetion was to publish a 30Gb software archive (consisting of approx 5000 files) using few fast servers as seeds, but I?m having a hard time finding p2p technology that would looks of production quality, except maybe bittorrent (azureus etc) that show excellent performance but require a centralized tracker which is nowhere near being optimal
[20:22] <Ash-Fox> would this software archive contain illegal files?
[20:22] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, I'm afraid that since freenet is sill hevely under development it's not "fast for downloading stuff" just yet. It's more about security and privacy that speed at the moment
[20:23] * Ash-Fox honestly isn't interested in having freenet being turned into a warez thing... pretty much likes the idea of freespeech more
[20:23] <d-ArkAngel> fig files are split aparet into many smaller files and distributed across the network, tho, and I've not done much with downloading such large files, tho some have asid you can get pretty good eprformance on such files.
[20:24] <Ash-Fox> What we really need on the internet is some place where you can publish data for free... which isn't really maintained by anyone in particular
[20:24] <d-ArkAngel> The thing is tho ash, assuming we can ever fix the scalbility problems, then it being a warez backbone will be a good things as more nodes pop up and start hosting things.
[20:24] <aga> no, not warez - all software is GNU and/or BSD licensed, and widely used
[20:25] <Ash-Fox> by maintence I mean nobody owning servers etc...
[20:25] <Ash-Fox> aga, uhm, it's better to use bittorent for that
[20:25] <d-ArkAngel> such a thing would be nice, but unlikely, the best chance you've got of such a thing would be sealand
[20:26] <Ash-Fox> aga, and I really doubt anyone would even bother downloading software off freenet
[20:27] <d-ArkAngel> ash, it'd be a good way to introduce people to freenet... it's just a case of it doing what is needed.
[20:27] <Ash-Fox> aga, especially free software vs pirated software... the only people I know who'd download software off freenet would be paranoid warez kiddies
[20:27] <aga> In fact, ?maintenance? can be important as mainitaining a trusted namespace. But I, even with few fast servers, not realy ready to offer the archive publically worldwise as those few servers are nothing comparing to potential demand.
[20:28] <d-ArkAngel> aga if there is huge demmand for the software you stand a better chance of getting it on the bigger mirrors such as mirror.ac.uk etc
[20:28] <Ash-Fox> aga, you miss understand the technology of bittorent... you don't need to provide fast speeds.. hell, I run a couple torrents my self, and while I only give uploads at 4KBps, people are downloading at 30KBps.. perhaps you should research why that's happening :P
[20:28] <aga> Idea is having software downloads/updates occuring automatically, not manually via browser etc. Low-level p2p technology does not matter much then, but requirement is that it must be working.
[20:30] * Ash-Fox notes that most large files on freenet, tend have some peices missing, which makes large downloads risky on freenet
[20:30] <d-ArkAngel> but freenet has some ability to "heal" such file damage
[20:31] <Ash-Fox> aga, heh, I develop a few applications, for update checking, I get my apps to check the text records on updatecheck.quickfox.org... which pretty much lists the current version of the app
[20:31] <d-ArkAngel> and if the subject files are re-injected regularly, then their avaliability *should* be proportional to demmand
[20:31] <Ash-Fox> d-ArkAngel, I haven't noticed it ;/
[20:31] <aga> I seriously tried bittorrent in August; 2 things I dislike about it: 1 - a certainlized tracker; 2 - requirement to collect files into quite large torrents (as all the clients have problems running thousands torrents simultaneously); 3 - problems extracting distinct files from a torrent and/or downloading only specific files from a particular toorent; 4 - lack of tools to do that (esp. 3) automatically
[20:32] <Ash-Fox> aga, I have not noticed that problem with azureus to handle alot of files
[20:32] <d-ArkAngel> I'm sure I read about it somewhere that split files, create some redundant data segments so that there is enough to rebiuld if some nodes go astray
[20:32] <aga> Freenet looks like addresses most if not all the issues, but is not usable currently, alas
[20:33] <d-ArkAngel> if you're any good with java feel free to jump in and help freenet meet your needs, it's open source after all :-)
[20:33] * Ash-Fox notes that downloads on freenet take sometimes twice the amount of bandwith needed to download the file from http
[20:34] <Ash-Fox> Which is why I don't see freenet being a real place to redistribute files :/
[20:34] <d-ArkAngel> I think the key word here has to be "yet"
[20:34] <Ash-Fox> Alot of users I know will sacrafice anonymity for faster downloads and transactions that take less bandwith
[20:35] <Ash-Fox> d-ArkAngel, if I run frost, I can barely browse the web.. I don't see it changing much
[20:35] <aga> 2x difference if not big. Even 5x difference would be passable. But freenet causes much larger difference currently, much larger
[20:35] <d-ArkAngel> depends on how the RIAA make their next move. you hear they've passed the 6000 mark in lawsuites against P2P file sharers?
[20:35] <Ash-Fox> heh, who cares about the RIAA, it's America's problem, not the rest of the world's
[20:36] <plixed> if you want an anonymous network you have to waste bandwidth big time
[20:36] <d-ArkAngel> indeed.
[20:36] <Ash-Fox> such organisations don't have sweeping powers like they do in other countries
[20:36] <Ash-Fox> plixed, true, just the point is, alot of users want content.. NOW :/
[20:36] <aga> if downloads go automatically at nights started by cron, who cares download speed? But metro area traffic and global traffic costs are often different, in my experience
[20:36] <d-ArkAngel> maybe bush will start invadeing countries that have P2P file shares :-) it's clearly a threat to the US economic interests you know.
[20:37] <Ash-Fox> plixed, they don't want their cable connection sufficated with data transfers and can barely browse the web at the same time etc...
[20:37] <Ash-Fox> plixed, speaking of which.. freenet works quite well over hamradio :P
[20:38] <aga> As far as helping with java programming, that?s an option (and yes, I professinal java programmer since 1996) but it?s still not obvious for me if the algorithms at fault, or implementation. Quite a difference.
[20:38] <plixed> Ash-Fox: the bandwidth limiter in freenet is broken i think
[20:38] <d-ArkAngel> why not just put a bandwidth limit on your copy of freenet?
[20:38] <d-ArkAngel> works just fine and dandy for me
[20:38] <d-ArkAngel> I run a node 24x7 and it's happy enough to stick to the limits I give it.
[20:38] <Ash-Fox> d-ArkAngel, because I still get sufficated with incomming connections :P
[20:39] <d-ArkAngel> how many?
[20:39] <Ash-Fox> d-ArkAngel, perhaps you didn't know, but winxp sp2 has a buffering feature in the tcp/ip stack.. preventing more than 10 connections to establish quickly
[20:40] <d-ArkAngel> ahh, well the lesson there is don't run it on winXP :-)
[20:40] <d-ArkAngel> I've got a cheap little linux box that runs my freenet node.
[20:40] <Ash-Fox> hmm, maybe I should buy a xbox, mod it, and run a freenet node off it
[20:40] <d-ArkAngel> also runs a couple of other things, like a DNS proxy, and a mail cahce server, and a web proxy
[20:41] <d-ArkAngel> you could get something cheaper than that.
[20:41] <d-ArkAngel> www.mini-itx.com
[20:41] <d-ArkAngel> get a little tiny PC :-)
[20:41] <Ash-Fox> mini-itx costs more because of delivery costs go over 100USD
[20:41] <d-ArkAngel> ahh well.
[20:41] <d-ArkAngel> they're lots of fun tho :-)
[20:41] <Ash-Fox> Agreed
[20:41] <Ash-Fox> I have one :P
[20:42] <d-ArkAngel> I've got two :-P
[20:42] <Ash-Fox> It runs my development center
[20:42] <d-ArkAngel> my freenet node runs on my development center ;-) (which all runs on linux)
[20:42] <Ash-Fox> (which currently is running on slackware linux, I'd switch to debian, however I have so many files stored there that I have nowhere to move)
[20:42] <d-ArkAngel> why not put the freenet node on that?
[20:43] <Ash-Fox> d-ArkAngel, I work on VPN software... freenet would get anoying in packet logging
[20:44] * Ash-Fox is working on a secure p2p VPN btw
[20:44] <d-ArkAngel> so groups of friends can link up?
[20:45] <Ash-Fox> yeah... I want to make my own internet :P
[20:45] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[20:45] <d-ArkAngel> free internet for the minority... I like it :-)
[20:45] <plixed> doesn't "private" collide with "peer"?
[20:45] <d-ArkAngel> lots and lots of minoritys tho :-)
[20:46] <Ash-Fox> plixed, no, because you can have private peer2peer connections
[20:46] <Ash-Fox> plixed, it's not meant to be a anonymous network, ie: no relaying through others
[20:47] <Ash-Fox> I considered making a anonymous VPN, I couldn't draft a RFC for it :/
[20:47] <d-ArkAngel> basicaly it's the same problem as freenet, but from the angle of keep the people that don't like what your doing/saying from seeing that it's beeing done/said. Where freenet is stop people from seeing who is doing/saying things that they don't like.
[20:49] <plixed> anonymous private network. this sounds like an oxymoron
[20:49] * Ash-Fox has each computer generate their own encryption certificate... from which they exchange with each other when they first establish contact.. the network IPs are static, if the ceritificates ever changed on a specific IP, you'd be notified, that's about as advanced as it is right now
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> like having an ssh connection to each machine in the network. is it routed like a P2P network? or is it all direct conencts?
[20:52] <Ash-Fox> direct connects.. however certain connection can only make outgoing connections, those computers may route through a P2P system
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[20:52] <Ash-Fox> *computers
[20:52] <Ash-Fox> or as I like to call it P2P2P
[20:53] <Ash-Fox> Once they establish some sort of tunnel, all connections go through those tunnels
[20:55] <plixed> hmm. i2p sound more anonymous to me than your description ;-)
[20:56] <Ash-Fox> You can set diffrent rules for different subnets also.. such as: 1) all/some connections must be authorised through specified hub 2) connections may go freely 3) authorisation from all/some connections to specified ports must be verified by hub
[20:57] <Ash-Fox> oops, forgot 4th) connections to specified subnets/ports denied
[21:00] <Ash-Fox> Pretty much it's a regulated internet :P
[21:00] <plixed> so you basically introduce some trusted authorisation points like blacklists for mailserver or ipfilter lists for edonkey/emule
[21:04] <Ash-Fox> not exactly, the administrator of your subnet controls the authorisation points etc.. I liked the idea of people being able to completely deny access to a connection, but allow outgoing connections from it... which would prevent some anoying DDOSes on normal users for example, it'd also be more secure, because viruses wouldn't be able to rely on service exploits... if they're found on a box, that box can have access restricted to certain poi
[21:06] <Ash-Fox> unless the person knew the IP of the computer under the VPN.. it would be difficult for them to launch a attack against it
[21:07] <Ash-Fox> anyway, if you want to continue discussing this, PM me, because people are going to get confused that this is somehow related to freenet
[21:08] <plixed> i think i go to bed now
[21:08] <plixed> n8
[21:08] <Ash-Fox> g'night
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[21:37] * cStyle (~cstyle@host-23-236-220-24.midco.net) has joined #freenet
[21:37] <cStyle> hello
[21:38] <d-ArkAngel> hi
[21:38] <cStyle> hello
[21:39] <cStyle> how are yo
[21:39] <d-ArkAngel> pretty good. tired, but good :-)
[21:39] <d-ArkAngel> you?
[21:39] <cStyle> not to bad.
[21:39] <cStyle> just got my node up and running yesterday
[21:49] <d-ArkAngel> yeah I'm fairly new to all this too :-)
[21:50] <d-ArkAngel> I'm more interested in the code than the node :-) I've been trying to get up to speed with the java to see if I can help out.
[21:50] <d-ArkAngel> so far all I've done is cause arguments :-)
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[22:11] <cStyle> cool
[22:11] * pwk__ (~phweak@dsl-62-3-71-168.zen.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[22:11] <d-ArkAngel> you done any java before?
[22:12] * pwk_ (~phweak@dsl-62-3-71-168.zen.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[22:12] <cStyle> no, but i have done c++, so i could catch on quickly
[22:13] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, it's just the same language but without all the interupts, and mem addresses :-)
[22:14] <d-ArkAngel> Doh, you could have told me it was 2:15 am! I best get some sleep :-)
[22:14] <d-ArkAngel> Night all
[22:19] <cStyle> night
[22:19] <cStyle> you must be in london?
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.