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[8:11] <nextgens> hi all
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[8:33] <d-ArkAngel> Morning all
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[9:20] <sanity> d-ArkAngel: is freenet-ext.jar in your classpath?
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[9:28] <hobx_> Emptiness reigns in #freenet. Here I sit with only the disconnecting reconnecting nicks of Sanity and Pupok for company...
[9:28] <sanity> hobx: i'm awake-ish
[9:29] <hobx_> So perhaps I spoke too soon.
[9:29] <hobx_> I'm used to Sundays being very quiet in here.
[9:29] <sanity> yeah, well, toad is never around on sundays
[9:30] <hobx_> He takes his sabbath seriously.
[9:31] <sanity> indeed
[9:31] <sanity> we, on the other hand, are all going to hell
[9:31] <hobx_> What I was trying to say before was: I have an interpretation of the theory that explained why we should see an ax + b log x line.
[9:32] <sanity> do tell
[9:32] <hobx_> But that said the log x part was caused by the cases where it couldn't find a long link and skipped along the grid.
[9:32] <hobx_> So I tried to modifiy the algorithm so that it would only sample when the incident link was long
[9:33] <sanity> you mean the ax part, right?
[9:33] <hobx_> But that didn't help :-(
[9:33] <hobx_> No, the log x part.
[9:33] <sanity> wouldn't skipping along the grid require D hops (where D is the distance)?
[9:34] <hobx_> (This is when talking about inverse of the proportion of links having a certain length, should be a straight line)
[9:34] <hobx_> This doesn't have to do with the search time.
[9:34] <hobx_> I'm trying to explain why LRU leads to the observed link distance distribution.
[9:34] <sanity> ok, so what are we looking at, what do we see, and why isn't it what we expect?
[9:35] <hobx_> We are looking at the distribution of link distances.
[9:35] <sanity> ok
[9:35] <hobx_> It should be on the order of 1 / d where d is distance
[9:35] <sanity> indeed
[9:35] <sanity> if its optimal
[9:35] <hobx_> So when inverted it should be a straight line.
[9:35] <sanity> with you so far
[9:36] <hobx_> But what I get is:
[9:36] <hobx_> http://www.math.chalmers.se/~ossa/temp/plot.png
[9:36] <hobx_> You see that LRU is eventually pretty straight, but certainly isn't as straight as the others
[9:36] <sanity> ok, and you are trying to explain why
[9:37] <hobx_> right
[9:37] <sanity> and you think the line isn't ax as it should be, its ax+blogx - right?
[9:37] <hobx_> It seemed to make sense under one interpretation of the theory
[9:37] <hobx_> And look:
[9:38] <hobx_> http://www.math.chalmers.se/~ossa/temp/lruinv.png
[9:38] <hobx_> That does look like a pretty good fit.
[9:38] <sanity> indeed it does
[9:38] <hobx_> 1 s
[9:40] <hobx_> But it seemed that maybe if I only sampled when I had taken a long step it would take away the log part.
[9:40] <hobx_> But it didn't.
[9:41] <hobx_> What did make the line straight (kind of) was this: Don't sample for the very first step.
[9:43] <sanity> so in other words, we are seeing more long links than we expect, and fewer short links
[9:43] <sanity> ?
[9:43] <hobx_> Or, what that does is make a line that looks very straight for up to half the max link length. After that it runs away toward infinity (because if we don't sample the first step, we very seldom sample distances longer than .35 or so)
[9:44] <hobx_> Yeah
[9:44] <sanity> didn't you say that the average path length with LRU was lower than with explicit?
[9:45] <hobx_> I said that turned out to be a mistake :-/.... It is perhaps marginally lower.
[9:45] <hobx_> Certainly not worse though
[9:45] <sanity> are you forcing peers to retain their connections to their neighbours?
[9:45] <hobx_> Yes.
[9:46] <hobx_> If you don't, things get a lot more complicated
[9:46] <sanity> what if you don't?
[9:46] <hobx_> I haven't tried that. Then I have to start thinking about backtracking and such things.
[9:46] <sanity> from a theory point of view?
[9:46] <sanity> ah, yes
[9:46] <sanity> either backtracking, or we lose the guarantee that you will find something
[9:47] <hobx_> From a theory point of view it makes things more difficult too, because the nicest thing about the analysis is that you are always getting closer to the target.
[9:47] <sanity> in practice, it is likely that LRU will retain neighbour links anyway, but since what we are essentially seeing is a skew in the number of short links - perhaps it is relevant
[9:48] <hobx_> The way I was approaching it right now was actually to reverse time and consider it instead as a process jumping away from the target.
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[9:48] <hobx_> That is kind of what I said.
[9:48] <hobx_> But Kleinbergs model and proof assumes that the neighbors are retained.
[9:49] <sanity> i know
[9:49] <sanity> but forcing retention of short links is likely to peturb LRU in some way, this could be it
[9:50] <hobx_> That is what is said I thought. But it seemed adding to the LRU on only those nodes where we entered via one of the long links, rather than the grid, would compensate.
[9:50] <sanity> forcing retention of the short links is an acceptable simplification for the maths, but it would be nice to know that this was to blame for the skew in the curve
[9:51] <sanity> well, can you run a simulation where short-links are not retained just to see what the curve looks like?
[9:52] <hobx_> I can, but not easily because I have to rewrite the simulator to handle all the new cases that arrise.
[9:52] <sanity> surely the only new possibility is that you don't find the data?
[9:52] <hobx_> (What do I do if all the links are to farther away then I came from? What if they have all been hit before? Etc)
[9:53] <hobx_> That too of course.
[9:53] <sanity> well, i didn't worry about that in my sim, and it *never* didn't find the data, even after 1M requests - so i suspect those new cases are *extremely* unlikely
[9:53] <hobx_> I can try if I have time.
[9:54] <hobx_> But I have another theory I will try:
[9:54] <hobx_> Choose the node that starts the query with a distritbution that depends on the key (or vice versa of course)
[9:55] <hobx_> I'm wondering what would happen if the distribution queries that a node starts is 1/d to it's distance to the query key.
[9:55] <hobx_> (Obviously there is no real life relevance, but what one wants is to match theory and experiment.)
[9:58] <sanity> isn't that the same as not having a first hop?
[9:58] <hobx_> hehe
[9:58] <sanity> ie. that distribution should be what is experienced by all but the first hop?
[9:58] <hobx_> How do you not have a first hop?
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[9:59] <hobx_> Oop, there goes sanity!
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[10:19] <sanity> hobx: you there?
[10:19] <hobx_> am now
[10:20] <sanity> hobx: just ran a sim without retaining short links, and the line looks pretty darn straight - so far as i can tell from the graph
[10:20] <sanity> hobx: although it isn't as clear a graph as yours
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[10:20] <hobx_> Mine is with 65000 nodes, 6 links per node, and then I did the plot on 50 buckets iirc
[10:21] <sanity> mine was 1000 nodes, 50 links each, and 1000 buckets
[10:22] <hobx_> I think with 50 links (why so many?) you probably never lose the neighbors anyways
[10:22] <sanity> i was just playing around
[10:22] <hobx_> and 1000 buckets is too many
[10:22] <sanity> exactly, if you don't lose the neighbours you don't have to worry about all those new special cases :-)
[10:23] <sanity> why don't you try yours with lots more links, if the skew is caused by the local links, it should be much less apparent with more links
[10:23] <hobx_> You also have the same situation that I have :-)
[10:23] <hobx_> I think the big difference is the number of links. I'll do one with 50 and see what I see.
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[10:27] <hobx_> hmm, weird
[10:28] <sanity> what?
[10:28] <hobx_> nm, looked like it was stuck, but it was only going slow
[10:28] <hobx_> I simulate more queries then I probably need to, just to be sure we are at the limiting state
[10:29] <sanity> what software do you use for curve fitting?
[10:29] <sanity> is there anything free?
[10:29] <hobx_> octave
[10:31] <hobx_> But it doesn't point and click curve fitting or anything. LS is kind of second nature to me.
[10:31] <sanity> "LS"?
[10:32] <hobx_> Least Squares
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[10:32] <d-ArkAngel> sanity: I've no idea what needs to be in my classpath, I think I've had it in my classpath once. Do you have an example classpath you could show me that does work (and let me know what install of java it's based on)
[10:33] <sanity> "java -cp freenet.jar:freenet-ext.jar freenet.node.Main" should work
[10:33] <sanity> assuming freenet.jar and freenet-ext.jar are in your current working directory
[10:33] <d-ArkAngel> it's the compiling I'm having trouble with.... it runs ok...
[10:34] <sanity> are you using "ant"?
[10:34] <d-ArkAngel> yes
[10:34] <sanity> that really should work out of the box IIRC
[10:34] <d-ArkAngel> I've no idea how to use ant tho, It's just the default FC2 install.
[10:35] <sanity> type "ant" in the top level directory of the freenet source
[10:35] <sanity> ...i assume you got the code out of CVS?
[10:36] <d-ArkAngel> yeah.
[10:38] <d-ArkAngel> what would be the CVS command to refresh to the newest version?
[10:39] * d-ArkAngel is a linux development noobie
[10:39] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[10:41] <sanity> cvs update -d
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[10:45] <hobx_> Ian, with 50 I get something completely not a line
[10:45] <sanity> oh?
[10:45] <sanity> that isn't good
[10:45] <sanity> what does it look like?
[10:46] <hobx_> Kind of like this
[10:46] <hobx_> ________
[10:46] <hobx_> /
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[10:46] <hobx_> if that worked :-)
[10:46] <hobx_> I think I know what the reason is though
[10:46] <sanity> what?
[10:46] <hobx_> with 50 links it takes just 5 steps
[10:46] <hobx_> so the uniform sampling of the initial node makes a much bigger difference.
[10:46] <hobx_> Now I shall try with 1
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[10:47] <sanity> ok, well, this is a good way to determine which of our theories is correct
[10:48] <sanity> if mine is, then more links should mean flatter, your theory is the other way around
[10:48] <sanity> looks like yours is right
[10:48] <hobx_> oh screw
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[10:48] <hobx_> stack overflow
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[10:48] <hobx_> will try 2 instead
[10:48] <sanity> 1 link?!
[10:49] <sanity> ok, that should be interesting
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[10:50] <hobx_> 1 didn't work. My query method is recursive, so it got a stack overflow
[10:51] <hobx_> One could probably fix that by training the network more actively as it grows.
[10:52] <d-ArkAngel> is it normal to get a whole raft of messages about javax.servlet.http.HttpSessionContext being deprecated?
[10:52] <sanity> probably
[10:52] <sanity> we created our own servlet implementation
[10:53] <sanity> ask hobx if you want to know why :-)
[10:53] <d-ArkAngel> and after all those warnings, it errors while trying to compile ThrottledAsyncEntropyYarrow.java
[10:53] <d-ArkAngel> Something about expected (
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[10:56] <hobx_> http://www.math.chalmers.se/~ossa/temp/lrus.png
[10:56] <hobx_> sanity
[10:56] <d-ArkAngel> Also I'm getting a lot of errors about type Head and type Tail not being found....
[10:57] <hobx_> what are you compiling with?
[10:57] <sanity> hobx: interesting
[10:58] <sanity> hobx: fewer links better curve
[10:58] <hobx_> I don't think it is a direct implication
[10:58] <sanity> hobx: i assume the relevant number is the number of links relative to the number of nodes
[10:58] <d-ArkAngel> I've tried it with Sun J2EE 1.4, and with the 1.5 RC for x86_64
[10:58] <hobx_> I think it is: fewer links -> more steps -> better curve
[10:58] <sanity> it supports your theory though
[10:58] <hobx_> the average search time 2 links was 40, with 50 just 5.
[10:59] <hobx_> Yes, I think what we see really is the initial distribution mudying things up. But the good part is it doesn't matter
[10:59] <hobx_> For all practical purposes this works just as well.
[10:59] <sanity> so the way to test this is for you to run a sim with a 1/D initial distribution
[10:59] <hobx_> The only real question is: should one avoid sampling in the very first node.
[10:59] <hobx_> yeah
[10:59] <hobx_> will do
[11:00] <hobx_> d-ArkAngel: I haven't compiled freenet for a while, but I think Head and Tail are internal classes in some of the utility ADTs (yes, we implemented our own of those too.)
[11:01] <d-ArkAngel> hmmm maybe if I set the root freenet dir in the classpath too...
[11:01] <hobx_> no
[11:02] <sanity> well, surely the distribution of incoming requests is uniform for the first node, then a 1/D component comes in on hop 2, and rapidly the uniform component disappears
[11:02] <hobx_> I think you'll have to wait until after Toad's day of fasting, and he can walk you trough it.
[11:03] <d-ArkAngel> ok, thanks anyway :-)
[11:03] <hobx_> d-ArkAngel: You are probably doing something obvious wrong, but we won't find it like this.
[11:04] <hobx_> sanity: I would expect the effect of the initial choice to become smaller with every hop.
[11:04] <d-ArkAngel> true, it's always the simplest mistakes that let me down :-)
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[11:32] <sanity> hobx: agreed
[11:32] <sanity> hobx: this is an argument in favour of pcaching
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[11:56] <nades> can anyone direct me to a good seednodes.ref to use on a linux box, my linux node can't find any of the pictures in the main screen of fproxy after running for a few days, but i tested a win32 node today and could load all of them within a half hour
[11:57] <i2p_iip> <tobias> really, operating system should not make a difference to the effectiveness of the seednodes.ref
[11:57] <i2p_iip> <tobias> i'm running a node on linux just fine with the current seednodes
[11:58] <i2p_iip> <tobias> you're not behind a firewall on your linux box? freenet definately runs better if it can have incoming connections.
[11:58] <nades> the seednode i'm using on linux comes with the archive, but the win32 installer downloaded one, which seednode does the win32 installer download ?
[11:58] <nades> the linux box had lots of conections open, both inbound and outbound
[11:59] <i2p_iip> <tobias> the windows one gets it seednodes from http://www.freenetproject.org/snapshots/seednodes.ref
[12:00] <i2p_iip> <tobias> are you running the current freenet build?
[12:00] <nades> ok ta, i'll whipe it's routing table etc and try again, yes i ran update.sh and it got the latest, it was stable aswell, do you recommend stable or unstable ?
[12:01] <i2p_iip> <tobias> i use stable and it works for me (well... mostly), i believe most content is inserted into stable.
[12:02] <i2p_iip> <tobias> just one thing... make sure that start-freenet.sh sets LD_ASSUME_KERNEL for your system. mine wasn't doing that for awhile and it kept freezing after about 20mins.
[12:03] <i2p_iip> <tobias> also, i found my node took awhile to come back up to speed after upgrading to 5096, so give it a little time (several hours to several days)
[12:04] <i2p_iip> <tobias> incidentally, i think the new freenet build released yesterday fixes that LD_ASSUME_KERNEL problem in the start-freenet.sh, if you download the archive (or something)
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[12:16] <bob> if i own a nick, can i get nickserv to kill a ghost for me ?
[12:17] <sanity> msg nickserv recover <nick> <password>
[12:17] <sanity> then
[12:17] <sanity> msg nickserv release <nick> <password>
[12:17] <bob> i2p_iip: i'm nades, i was disconnected before, thanks for the tips one last question do you recommend using doAnnounce ?
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[12:18] <nades> sanity: cheers :)
[12:20] <i2p_iip> <gott> Danny Boy: According to Reskill, all Freenet development is in fact development for 'Ian Clarkorythms'. If there is such a thing as Clarkorythms, how do I feast on the goo inside ?
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[16:09] <Ogredude> hiya folks
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[16:10] <cbreak> hi.
[16:11] <Ogredude> so I just downloaded freenet, because I like the idea of a data haven... But now that I've got it running, what do I *do* with it? :)
[16:12] <cbreak> there are a few standard ways to use freenet.
[16:12] <cbreak> One is to surf using the web frontend "fproxy", which is part of freenet.
[16:12] <Ogredude> okay, that's what I'm doing right now
[16:12] <Ogredude> and getting "can't retrieve key" on everything I click
[16:13] <cbreak> you should be running freenet for a few hours to get it connected.
[16:13] <Ogredude> ohhhh
[16:13] <Ogredude> okay
[16:13] <Ogredude> I can do that
[16:13] <cbreak> also, don't turn it off :)
[16:13] <Ogredude> I'll just close out that window and ignore the bunny till this evening.
[16:14] <cbreak> -> Windows?
[16:14] <Ogredude> unfortunately
[16:14] <cbreak> Also, you might want to try frost, a java message board software with rudimentary file sharing capabilities
[16:15] <Ogredude> hmmm
[16:15] <cbreak> for windows there is a good freenet up/download program, which's name I unfortunately forgot...
[16:16] <nextgens|away> . Fquid perhaps?
[16:16] <Ogredude> okay, so in a practical sense, what *IS* Freenet? Is it a web space without webservers? Is it a file storage / p2p filesharing thing? Is it an anonymous message board? Is it all of the above?
[16:16] <nextgens|away> a transport layer ...
[16:16] <i2p_iip> <salgo> fuqid
[16:16] <cbreak> its a distributed file system
[16:16] <Ogredude> okay
[16:16] <Ogredude> a distributed filesystem and a transport layer
[16:17] <Ogredude> I can handle that
[16:17] <cbreak> you can store keys in it anonymously, and get them out again, if you are lucky, also anonymously.
[16:17] <Ogredude> nifty.
[16:17] <Ogredude> and if the contents of that key happen to be PGP encrypted, then it's secure too
[16:17] <cbreak> Currently getting stuff out works, getting it in has its problems.
[16:17] <cbreak> yes
[16:17] <i2p_iip> <salgo> FUQID 1.5 - SSK@CKesZYUJWn2GMvoif1R4SDbujIgPAgM/fuqid/12//
[16:18] <Ogredude> hmmm
[16:18] <Ogredude> okay, I'm seeing the potential on this, then.
[16:18] <cbreak> Content is encrypted with its key, so you may only retrieve stuff if you know the public name. Even if the data is inside your data store.
[16:18] <Ogredude> Sounds absolutely lovely to me.
[16:19] <cbreak> In theory freenet is absolutely impressive. In practice it has a few glitches...
[16:19] <Ogredude> okay, and SSK@CKesZYUJWn2GMvoif1R4SDbujIgPAgM/fuqid/12// is the public name of the fuqid page/file/whatever-it-is?
[16:19] <i2p_iip> <salgo> yes
[16:19] <cbreak> SSK@ is the key type. Then comes the public key.
[16:20] <Ogredude> cbreak: Well back when I was working with distributed.net (before they pissed me off), they were talking about the next generation client would have a distributed filesystem in it too. Which would use no more than about 256k of disk space on each client machine, and which would have a storage capacity of some terrabytes.
[16:20] <cbreak> fuqid/12// is the name of a key inside that public subspace.
[16:20] <Ogredude> I believe petabytes came up in discussion at one point.
[16:20] * TLF (~francisco@103.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[16:20] <cbreak> Freenet uses a lot of CPU, HD and RAM :/
[16:20] * Ogredude raises an eyebrow at i2p_iip... Link-bot?
[16:21] <cbreak> yes.
[16:21] <Ogredude> extremely nifty.
[16:21] <cbreak> A link to iip, an anonymous IRC
[16:21] <i2p_iip> <salgo> a good freenet node needs a few gb of hd space
[16:21] <Ogredude> oh really now... That's interesting.
[16:21] <Ogredude> Salgo: I've got some gigs I'm not using.
[16:21] <Ogredude> And as long as it doesn't start becoming annoying
[16:22] <Ogredude> like javaw is right now...
[16:22] <Ogredude> it's sucking down on RAM like nobody's business... 159MB and climbing rapidly.
[16:22] <i2p_iip> <salgo> bandwidth usage can become annoying, the bandwidth limiter is not performing too well, at least not for me
[16:23] <cbreak> hmm... should only use about 120 MB Ram and around 400 MB Virtual Memory.
[16:23] <Ogredude> ye gods.
[16:24] <Ogredude> the next biggest RAM gobbler is Firefox, and it's been running for four days.
[16:24] <i2p_iip> <salgo> without javamem=256 (i.e. giving the javaw 256mb real memory) freenet crashes for me repeatedly
[16:24] <cbreak> salgo: An external Limiter may help. It worked here without one, but not freenet only uses spare bw.
[16:24] <Ogredude> well, that's one of the drawbacks to doing it in Java
[16:25] <Ogredude> I wish they could get their fool heads together and write a java VM that's actually efficient.
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[16:25] <mikeDOTd> salgo: i've found 192m is usually enough for a couple weeks uptime
[16:25] <cbreak> Unfortunately the only VM supported at the moment is SUN's
[16:25] <Ogredude> hell, even VirtualPC doesn't take that much RAM... And it's emulating an entire computer. Not just converting semi-compiled bytecode to machine language.
[16:26] <i2p_iip> <salgo> good to hear, but fortunatly i can spare 256 mb memory
[16:26] <cbreak> Hmm... the Mac Version of VPC uses even more RAM than freenet :)
[16:26] <Ogredude> Well, I guess just like Freenet, Java also is a fabulous idea in theory but has some problems in execution.
[16:26] <cbreak> :)
[16:26] <Ogredude> salgo: Yeah, I can't. That's a third of my available RAM.
[16:26] <Ogredude> ANd I've already pushed this box to the limit.
[16:27] <cbreak> freenet runs here with -Xmx128m and is stable.
[16:27] <i2p_iip> <salgo> java is a good development tool and there are major drawbacks which prevents its use for freenet
[16:27] <Ogredude> I'll let it run for a bit, I really want to try this thing. I'll let it run till it gets in my way.
[16:27] <Ogredude> And then I'll curse at it and kill it. :)
[16:28] <cbreak> If you want to try IIP, its fairly lightwight, and also a nice toy :)
[16:28] <Ogredude> salgo: Yeah, well according to the FAQ, it's kinda too late to switch languages now... :)
[16:29] <i2p_iip> <salgo> a good advise has already been given: let freenet run 24/7 and you your will acutally be able to use it ;-)
[16:30] <i2p_iip> <salgo> no major drawbacks, sorry
[16:30] <Ogredude> salgo: Yep. Like I say, at this point it's still firmly in the "interesting toy" category for me... So I'll let it run till it gets in the way of my regular work. :)
[16:31] <cbreak> As long as your regular work only consists of mildly Bandwith, Memory and CPU using tasks freenet should not get in the way... :)
[16:31] <cbreak> if it does, you might first want to try a bandwith limiter, renice and adjusting flaunch.ini to reduce memory usage :)
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[16:32] <Ogredude> cbreak: For the most part... Although occasionally I get into some hardcore graphic design, with Photoshop, Corel Draw, Corel Trace, and a couple other things fired up all at once.
[16:33] <Ogredude> and I'm thinking that's when freenode is going to get in my way :)
[16:33] <Ogredude> the concept is fascinating.
[16:33] <cbreak> hmm... Photoshop, the programm with its own Virtual Memory :)
[16:33] <Ogredude> a data haven is one big step toward freedom. As is publically availablehigh-level encryption.
[16:34] <Ogredude> speaking of which, I wish GPG had more frontend tools for Windows. *sigh*
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[16:34] <cbreak> A CLI should be enough for anybody :)
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[16:36] <Ogredude> *snerk*
[16:37] <i2p_iip> <salgo> if only a CLI exits, only a very small group will use this software and the small group can easily be outlawed, hunted down, etc.
[16:38] <cbreak> there are some plugins. also there is a commercial, closed source counterpart (PGP).
[16:38] <Ogredude> salgo: Exactly.
[16:38] <Ogredude> cbreak: Yeah, and it absolutely pisses me off how they went commercial and closed source.
[16:38] <i2p_iip> <salgo> for a successful deployment of a strong crypto-software with an intuitive GUI have look at skype (only drawback: it's not opensource)
[16:38] <Ogredude> Don't get me wrong, the PGP software itself is wonderful, marvelous. But the company's ethics piss me off.
[16:39] <Ogredude> Also, crypto software should be opensource. Because that's the only conceivable way that you can personally certify that Bad Guy hasn't snuck a backdoor into your crypto software.
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[16:39] <Ogredude> (granted, you can only do that if you're an experienced coder with lots of time on your hands, but it's the spirit of the thing, you know?)
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[16:40] <cbreak> Yes.
[16:42] <Ogredude> okay, so if someone gives me a key, like salgo gave me the key for fuqid, what do I *do* with it?
[16:43] <cbreak> use a web browser to access it with the pattern http://localhost:8888/<key>
[16:44] <Ogredude> nifty
[16:44] <cbreak> or you could enter the key in the corresponding form on the fproxy main page.
[16:44] <Ogredude> okay, that makes sense.
[16:44] <cbreak> if it's a splitfile key, you also might want to try frost or that fuqid thing.
[16:46] <Ogredude> okay. Yeah, I read about splitfiles.
[16:47] <cbreak> if you happen to like wikis, there is one for freenet: www.freenethelp.org
[16:48] <Ogredude> I love wikis, and I was poking around in that a little bit
[16:50] <Ogredude> hmm... "If you are considering creating and uploading your own freesite, you should look at some of the guides on Freenet for advice, as good web design is not necessarily good freesite design."
[16:51] <Ogredude> Seems to me with a freesite, the idea would be to make it slim and quick as possible. Not graphics-heavy, not script-heavy... Just like it was in the Old Days, text with the occasional picture for emphasis.
[16:51] <cbreak> NO Scripts at all.
[16:51] <Ogredude> Since your viewers are going to be retrieving it through an inherently high-latency network...
[16:51] * marco75 (~marco7500@81.185.90.254) Quit (Connection timed out)
[16:51] <cbreak> Use as less different files as possible.
[16:52] <Ogredude> yeah. Better to have a single html file with internal bookmarks, ya?
[16:52] <cbreak> (Don't use different files for preview images)
[16:52] <cbreak> yes.
[16:52] <Ogredude> because again, each file request has to go through a high-latency network.
[16:52] <Ogredude> You sacrifice network speed in favor of freedom and anonymity.
[16:53] <cbreak> each additional file adds load time.
[16:53] <cbreak> the transfer rates inside freenet are bearable, the latencities are barely...
[16:54] <i2p_iip> <salgo> high-latency is an underestimation, better call it a lucky-when-receive-a-key network
[16:54] <cbreak> it's not that bad... at least not on unstable...
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[16:55] <Ogredude> salgo: haha. It's still considered a work-in-progress, though, right?
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[16:56] <cbreak> yes.
[16:56] <i2p_iip> <salgo> high latency leads some to think it just need a few seconds more, but receiving a key in freenet can take many minuts to many hours and many retries
[16:57] <Ogredude> hmm
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[16:57] <cbreak> Latest changes to freenet included the increase of timeouts to addapt to the higher latencity queueing has caused.
[16:57] <Ogredude> okay, so you *REALLY* trade speed for freedom.
[16:57] <cbreak> yes.
[16:57] <Ogredude> It sounds like the old underground 300bps BBS's...
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[16:58] <Ogredude> could find the most incredibly interesting stuff on those things... It was just slow as hell.
[16:58] <cbreak> Freenet is absolutely decentralized, and routing uses only estimates a node has gathered itself.
[16:58] <cbreak> Transfers go over a lot of different nodes to reach their targets.
[16:59] <Ogredude> yeah
[16:59] <Ogredude> nobody ever said it was *fast*
[16:59] <Ogredude> :)
[17:00] <Ogredude> Fast, free, anonymous. Pick two.
[17:00] <cbreak> Transfer speeds can be quite high, but the time to search the key is also :)
[17:00] <i2p_iip> <salgo> execpt for the offical freenet-webpages ;-)
[17:00] <Ogredude> salgo: I'd assume those are actually stored on webservers.
[17:00] <Ogredude> or are you talking about the freenet-freepages?
[17:01] <i2p_iip> <salgo> http://freenet.sourceforge.net/index.php?page=content
[17:01] <i2p_iip> <salgo> "In addition to its anonymity features, Freenet is also an effective way to distribute large files - often achieving download speeds faster than other content distribution systems."
[17:02] <Ogredude> hmm
[17:02] <Ogredude> if you can get ahold of the key.
[17:03] <i2p_iip> <salgo> the problem is that big files consist of many keys ->splitfiles
[17:03] <Ogredude> true.
[17:03] <cbreak> Splitfiles can profit of the decentralized structure of freenet, each splitfilepart can be transferet at the same time, so you have multi paralell downloads.
[17:04] <cbreak> well... if you manage to find them :)
[17:04] <Ogredude> hmm, this is sweet.
[17:04] <cbreak> It works, but only for quite popular and new content and with a well connected node.
[17:04] <Ogredude> even with the speed disadvantages, I'm becoming more and more interested in this project, just because of the freedom aspects.
[17:05] <Ogredude> now, someone needs to come up with a secure and trusted e-cash that uses freenet as its transport.
[17:05] <Ogredude> voila, untraceable online money
[17:05] <Ogredude> just like meatspace cash is untraceable for the most part.
[17:06] <cbreak> on IIP, they use YODELS.
[17:06] <cbreak> I have no clue how that currency works, bot there is even a casino bot, which accepts it.
[17:08] <Ogredude> hmm
[17:08] <Ogredude> well, there's a difference between pretend currency and real currency...
[17:09] <Ogredude> with real currency, there's got to be some way to transfer meatspace money into freebux (for lack of a better name)...
[17:09] <Ogredude> and some way of transferring freebux into meatspace money.
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[17:09] <cbreak> I think I have read that the bank exchanges for and to other currencies. ($ was mentioned)
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[17:09] <Ogredude> iiiinteresting.
[17:09] <Ogredude> I need to take a look at this IIP thing, I think.
[17:09] <cbreak> but that was on iip, so might as well be a hoax :)
[17:10] <i2p_iip> <salgo> http://www.yodelbank.com/faq.html
[17:10] <cbreak> The IIP project was stopped some time ago, but an organisation took over the network and continues service.
[17:11] <cbreak> http://www.invisiblenet.net/iip/
[17:13] <Ogredude> ah, the webpages are ganging up on me.
[17:14] <cbreak> Yes, here you will get lots of input :)
[17:14] <Ogredude> this seems like a pretty cool community
[17:14] <Ogredude> nobody's screamed "RTFM YOU MORON" at me yet.
[17:15] <cbreak> There are not that many who find that chan, and freenet needs every node runner :)
[17:16] <i2p_iip> <lonelynerd> Ogredude, no problem, we can fix that in no time: RTFM YOU MORON! :)
[17:16] <Ogredude> hehehe
[17:16] <Ogredude> yes, I have somewhat of a grudge against the linux community :)
[17:17] <i2p_iip> <salgo> yeah, mee too, i converted recently to OpenBSD :-)
[17:17] <cbreak> they tend to overreact... :)
[17:18] * cbreak uses the other operating system that is soon going to die...
[17:20] <Ogredude> which one's that?
[17:20] <cbreak> Mac OS X :)
[17:20] * Ogredude uses FreeBSD by choice when it comes time for a *NIX
[17:20] <Ogredude> oh. Why's it soon going to die?
[17:21] <cbreak> Apple is proudly going out of buissnes since 1984...
[17:21] <i2p_iip> <salgo> but with style :-)
[17:22] <Ogredude> ah. Gotcha. Because Jobs is an idiot.
[17:22] <cbreak> Both Apple and the BSDs have a continuing support of Doomsday Prophets :)
[17:22] <cbreak> I think he is clever. A Slave Driver, but clever.
[17:23] <Ogredude> Clever in the poo-flinging monkey sense.
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[17:23] <Ogredude> If he was truly clever, he would have allowed clones to be made, he would encourage software development for his platform, he would bring the machines themselves down into a reasonable price range...
[17:24] <cbreak> His company was bought by apple, and now he is again CEO.
[17:24] <cbreak> Apple can not compete with low price computers.
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[17:24] <cbreak> they compete with high quality computers, the IBM Workstations or Dell Notebooks.
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[17:25] <Ogredude> Just like the DeLorean automobile couldn't compete with the low-price cars of which I can't currently name an example.
[17:25] <Ogredude> The 1981-1982 equivelant of the Ford Focus
[17:25] <cbreak> Apple once tried to allow clones. They where sucessfull, bot instead of increasing the market for apple and compatibles, they took over apples customers.
[17:25] <cbreak> I don't know cars. :)
[17:26] <Ogredude> I'm minded of the totally legal Brazilian Apple ][ clone... Which Jobs tried many times unsuccessfully to crush...
[17:27] <cbreak> hmm... before my time...
[17:27] <Ogredude> cbreak: The DeLorean was a gorgeous sports car with a stainless steel body, each piece was hand-fitted to the car, and it cost about $25,000. The current "good cheap car" on the other hand, was assembly-line built and cost in the neighborhood of $8,000
[17:28] <Ogredude> Anyway, with the Apple ][ clones... Back then, reverse-engineering was perfectly legal, and in fact encouraged.
[17:28] <cbreak> It is still legal I think.
[17:28] <i2p_iip> <salgo> most people need a car to drive, not as a status sign
[17:28] <Ogredude> Brazil didn't allow imports of computers, supposedly to promote their own computer industry...
[17:29] <Ogredude> So this company got ahold of some Apple ][ computers and parted them out. They set up two groups. They handed the first group the BIOS from the Apple ][ and said "Here. Make a motherboard that'll support this." They handed the second group the motherboard minus BIOS and said "Here. Make a BIOS that'll run this."
[17:29] <Ogredude> and pretty soon, they had a machine that was virtually the same as an Apple ][, only it was completely that company's thing, fairly designed from reverse engineering.
[17:30] <Ogredude> salgo: True. But I regard Macs as the sports cars of the computer world. They're slick, they're shiny, they're SPENDY
[17:30] <i2p_iip> <salgo> indeed, you can still sell the status sign car to the minorty which has the money for it...
[17:31] <cbreak> This is still legal, but I don't think it would work now. Apple Computers don't only sell because of their Hardware, but because of their software, and their name. Both wich are copyrighted...
[17:32] <Ogredude> yeah
[17:32] <Ogredude> but copyright/trademark/whatever absolutely doesn't prevent a person from saying "Compatible with Macintosh"
[17:32] <i2p_iip> <salgo> then put a different name on it, if it survives to law suit like the one apple tried on microsoft for cloning "their" os, you can sell it
[17:33] <Ogredude> yep
[17:33] <Ogredude> cbreak: Yeah, I guess you're still allowed to reverse-engineer hardware. Just not software.
[17:33] <Ogredude> DMCA
[17:33] <cbreak> I doubt cloning Mac OS X would be sucessfull. It would be easier to just use Darwin and Put an X Server on top.
[17:33] * Ogredude gives DMCA the finger.
[17:34] <cbreak> Samba: Reverse Engineered SMB
[17:35] <Ogredude> released before it became illegal to do so.
[17:35] <Ogredude> it was DeCSS that started the whole trend of making reverse engineering illegal.
[17:35] <Ogredude> DeCSS was designed to provide an open-source DVD playing software for the Linux community. It was written as a direct result of reverse-engineering.
[17:36] <cbreak> they cracked a DVD Player and extracted the key... hmm...
[17:36] <i2p_iip> <salgo> DeCSS was a reengineering to circumvent a copy-protection, i think this is the only case the DMCA makes reengineering illegal, or am i mistaken?
[17:36] <cbreak> Well, at least the Devs where found innocent :)
[17:38] <Ogredude> CSS wasn't a copy protection
[17:39] <Ogredude> they said it was, but it wasn't. You could make a bit-for-bit copy of a CSS "protected" DVD and play it on any player.
[17:39] <cbreak> you can not copy the disc-key
[17:39] <Ogredude> It was designed as a scam to make the CCA lots and lots of money through licensing fees.
[17:39] <cbreak> since the area where it is stored is not writable on DVD-R
[17:39] <Ogredude> And to restrict the world market. To prevent the Brits from buying an American DVD before the movie even gets released in Britain.
[17:40] <cbreak> Region Codes... BAHHHH!
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[17:40] <Ogredude> yeah, they're evil.
[17:40] <i2p_iip> <salgo> i think you confuse the "content scrambling system" (which is a copy protection) the the region codes...
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[17:41] <Ogredude> they tie closely together.
[17:41] <cbreak> CSS is a play protection.
[17:41] <Ogredude> yeah, it's not a copy protection, it's a play protection.
[17:41] <Ogredude> there ya go, cbreak
[17:42] <Ogredude> salgo: Does IIP have to be left running for several hours before I can connect, too?
[17:42] <cbreak> Unfortunately the Studios have had sucesses in region code enforcements here...
[17:42] <cbreak> IIP is more or less instant on. If you manage to find a peer that is.
[17:42] <i2p_iip> <salgo> you could argue that copy protections doesn't make much sense because it exists not one that really prevents copying, but if anything is a try at a copy protection than CSS is...
[17:43] <i2p_iip> <salgo> no, the node should be accessible a few minutes after starting
[17:43] <Ogredude> well apparently I don't have a peer.
[17:43] <cbreak> have you donwloaded the node.ref from metropipe?
[17:44] <Ogredude> ya
[17:45] <cbreak> lots of "sockOpen: open failed:" in the logs?
[17:45] <i2p_iip> <salgo> check the iip.log file in the IIP directory
[17:45] <Ogredude> okay
[17:46] <Ogredude> [2004/09/26-20:47:32]:csiip11InHandshake: remotekey is wrong!
[17:47] <cbreak> hmm...
[17:48] <Ogredude> just restarted it
[17:48] <cbreak> you have iip 1.1.0?
[17:49] <i2p_iip> <salgo> and visted this webpage http://www.invisiblechat.com/Download ?
[17:51] <Ogredude> okay, just downloaded the node.ref and isproxy.ini from there, restarting IIP
[17:52] <cbreak> you should configure it yourself once it works. just to be sure :)
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[17:55] <Ogredude> hey, I'm on
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[17:57] <i2p_iip> <Ogredude> I made it on, cbreak.
[17:57] <cbreak> cool :)
[17:57] <cbreak> but you should not use the same nick as out here :)
[17:58] <Ogredude> *shrug*
[17:58] <Ogredude> at this point, I'm playing with it.
[17:58] <i2p_iip> <Ogredude> And being in the same channel twice is hurting my head, as usual.
[17:58] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> Just remember to change nick, before you do 'somthing stoopid' (tm)
[17:58] <Ogredude> so I'm not really worried about the anonymity at this point.
[17:58] <Ogredude> Sonax: Yeah, of course :)
[17:58] <cbreak> There is an other nice toy, i2p, which is some kind of anonymous proxy network.
[17:59] <cbreak> Like iip for tcp.
[17:59] <Ogredude> hmm, nifty.
[17:59] <cbreak> so much to try... :D
[18:00] <Ogredude> okay, now what would it take to make IIP connect to my own IRC net?
[18:00] <Ogredude> suppose I have to have an ircd set up to accept incoming IIP connections or something...
[18:00] <cbreak> you would need a server and some private nodes.
[18:00] <Ogredude> which would be well nigh impossible with our current codebase.
[18:00] <cbreak> then you collect some public nodes as mixes.
[18:01] <cbreak> yes, an IRCD and some mixes.
[18:01] <Ogredude> ok
[18:01] <Ogredude> well in that case it's impossible.
[18:01] <Ogredude> we're using a quite custom ircd, and it's an absolute bitch to update.
[18:01] <Ogredude> *shrug*
[18:02] <Ogredude> although I have just raised the question with my staff about changing our hostmasking procedure around...
[18:02] <cbreak> the problem is not the ircd, but rather the number of mix nodes you would need to bootstrap a network.
[18:02] <Ogredude> okay...
[18:02] <cbreak> you could just stick your IRCD behind a firewall and only allow connections from your local isproxy
[18:03] <Ogredude> Ahhh.
[18:03] <Ogredude> okay... And how about hooking my local isproxy to my existing ircd w/o firewalling etc?
[18:03] <cbreak> Don't know, never tried :)
[18:03] <cbreak> There are a few competent people (IIP/I2P Devs) on IIP :)
[18:04] <Ogredude> okay
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[18:04] <Ogredude> let me fire it back up then
[18:04] <Ogredude> I think the better solution for us is to alter our hostmasking a little bit.
[18:04] <Ogredude> currently, we hostmask like so: Nightstar-25583.ipt.aol.com
[18:05] <Ogredude> I'm proposing we hostmask like so: user.nightstar.net
[18:05] <Ogredude> with, of course, user.nightstar.net resolving on DNS to 127.0.0.1
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[18:06] <cbreak> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/*checkout*/invisibleip/contrib/htmldoc/en/index.html?rev=HEAD
[18:07] <cbreak> (what a strange way to serve a HTML File...
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[18:08] <Ogredude> cbreak: Heh.
[18:08] <Ogredude> okay, I'm gonna wander off for a few hours.
[18:08] <Ogredude> cya folks. And nice yakking with you guys.
[18:08] * Ogredude is now known as Og-GoNE
[18:08] <cbreak> bye, and good luck with freenet :)
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[18:45] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Anyone out there? I need help figuring out what's wrong with YoYo's update checker
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[20:44] <greycat> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 24 (2/22/32)
[20:44] <greycat> Transfers active (Transmitting/Receiving) 109 (8/101)
[20:45] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Hey, greycat... you're Freenet savvy... got a few minutes?
[20:48] <greycat> I suppose so
[20:50] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> I'm trying to figure out what's wrong my rig for YoYo. The updater is only retrieving a few sites and won't retrieve others, including ones I can easily retrieve through Fproxy
[20:52] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> I have no idea what I should be looking at to find the discrepancy... the exact same code was working fine for Reskill on his node
[20:53] <greycat> it's probably some weird Fred bug
[20:54] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> There isn't some weird thing that sets HTLs down... the updater is hard-coded at 25
[20:56] <greycat> I thought they were currently reduced to 20
[20:56] <greycat> but maybe it's 25
[20:56] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> I know it sets it down to the node max, I'm making sure it doesn't knock down to like 5 or something.. (I think it's currently 20)
[20:57] <greycat> if your data store is >90% full you could be seeing keys deleted by prob-caching
[20:58] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> It just seems weird that fproxy can find the sites but my updater can't, when it could on another node
[20:59] <greycat> as I said, it might be a fred bug. narrow it down to one key that you can get with fproxy but not with FCP (assuming you use FCP) and write it up as a bug report
[20:59] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Will do... I appreciate your direction
[21:00] <greycat> I'm seeing a lot of weirdness myself with 5096. I can insert something with FCP, and then fproxy *doesn't* find it. And if I insert it again, it collides at the local node as expected. Still not showing up in the web interface.
[21:01] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Well, this has been for the last couple versions, but the problem is most likely not brand new
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
