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[2:05] <cStyle> Hello
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[4:19] <i2p_iip> <gott> HUG
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[6:27] <hobbs> anyone happen to be around?
[6:28] <d-ArkAngel> me, but I'm just popping out to the bank...
[6:29] <hobbs> trying to get a node working, was just wondering if anyone could tell me the latest edition of a decent edition site. Like Kuroneko if that's still running.
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[6:36] * nextgens (~nextgens@d83-177-150-53.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[6:36] <nextgens> hi
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[6:49] <cStyle> hello
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[7:53] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Anyone awake?
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[8:53] <Sunlight88> hello, anyone here?
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[8:57] <nextgens|away> yes
[8:59] <Sunlight88> i have some problems to get freenet to work under 5096, is this normal for a new built?
[9:01] * TLF (~francisco@29.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[9:01] <nextgens|away> I dunno : my uptime is to low
[9:01] <hobx_> well, it depends
[9:01] <hobx_> have we reached the halfway point between the last solar and next lunar eclipse?
[9:01] <nextgens|away> it seems to work here ...
[9:01] * nextgens|away is now known as nextgens
[9:02] <hobx_> the russians are coming!
[9:03] <greycat> well, that's how they make baby russians.
[9:05] <Sunlight88> its funny, with 5095 I had a great dl speed. now, after I have updated freenet is running, but there is absolutely no data tranfer. Frost is not starting because of this and so Im only able to ask here.
[9:06] <nextgens> does FRED react to any signal ( could we make it reload its config without rebooting it?)
[9:06] <greycat> some of the config file lines are automatically re-read, most aren't
[9:07] <Sunlight88> LOL a reload is not possible
[9:08] <nextgens> do you know if LogLevel is re-read?
[9:08] <nextgens> or should I restart it?
[9:08] <Sunlight88> no, I am sorry, Im a newbie ;)
[9:09] <greycat> freenet@griffon:~$ java -jar freenet.jar --onTheFly
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[9:09] <greycat> targetMaxThreads, tfTolerableQueueDelay, tfAbsoluteMaxThreads, inputBandwidthLimit, outputBandwidthLimit, configUpdateInterval, seednodesUpdateInterval, aggressiveGC, maxOpenConnectionsNewbieFraction, maxHopsToLive, newNodePollInterval, announcementAttempts, announcementThreads, initialRequests, initialRequestHTL, requestDelayCutoff, successfulDelayCutoff, requestSendTimeCutoff, successfulSendTimeCutoff, logLevel, logLevelDetail
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[9:10] <nextgens> :)
[9:10] <nextgens> greycat: thanks
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[10:43] <toad_> |Although the potential for evil is very high with this tool, we decided to demonstrate it (and give it its first real field trial) on something nasty, but harmless (compared to say, wiping your hard-drive)
[10:43] <toad_> HMMM
[10:43] * toad_ doesn't think goatse is harmless
[10:49] <toad_> kers: for future reference, if you do that to me at a con, ... well, i'm not very practiced in digital revenge, but i'm sure i could find some pals who are
[10:56] * kers (~kers@62.ppp144.rsd.worldonline.se) has joined #freenet
[10:56] <toad_> hi kers
[10:58] <hobx_> not superclever to talk to somebody before they join the channel
[10:58] <kers> hi toad, all
[10:58] <toad_> <toad_> |Although the potential for evil is very high with this tool, we decided to demonstrate it (and give it its first real field trial) on something nasty, but harmless (compared to say, wiping your hard-drive)
[10:58] <toad_> <toad_> HMMM
[10:58] <toad_> toad_ doesn't think goatse is harmless
[10:58] <toad_> <toad_> kers: for future reference, if you do that to me at a con, ... well, i'm not very practiced in digital revenge, but i'm sure i could find some pals who are
[10:58] <cbreak> toad_ is from the future... :)
[10:58] <hobx_> dja vu
[10:59] <toad_> hobx_: shit, they changed something!!
[10:59] <hobx_> It's my life! It is gone!
[10:59] <hobx_> oh wait... never mind...
[10:59] <toad_> lol
[10:59] * hobx_ goes to eat a mango and feel lonely.
[10:59] <toad_> http://amphibian.dyndns.org/simulations2-new.png
[11:00] <toad_> i've been offered a few days of supercomputer time to simulate freenet
[11:00] <toad_> problem is i need to get something together for tuesday
[11:00] <toad_> and it needs to be self contained
[11:00] <toad_> also the current sim isn't parallel
[11:00] <tessier> wow
[11:00] <cbreak> what super computer?
[11:00] <toad_> well it's only a minor supercomputer
[11:00] <toad_> a large bunch of opterons
[11:01] <kers> toad_: haha, you dont like goatse ?just wait util i start inserting goatse all over expired freepages :D
[11:01] <tessier> How does the simulator work?
[11:01] <tessier> Is it inherently parallel?
[11:01] <toad_> despite my conversation yesterday with seberino, I think I should work on sims now
[11:01] <toad_> must tell him to avoid tripping up on each others feet
[11:01] <toad_> kers: you can't
[11:01] <tessier> Could there be a "freenet simulator project" and would it be any different than just running freenet?
[11:02] <toad_> it's not possible except on the galleries and other KSK based stuff
[11:02] <tessier> seberino as in Chris Seberino? He's a personal friend of mine. What are you two working on?
[11:02] <toad_> tessier: it's strictly single threaded at the moment
[11:02] <toad_> tessier: he wanted to work part time for us on simulations
[11:02] <toad_> tessier: unfortunately ian doesn't think that'll be financially feasible
[11:02] * tessier is the one who turned him onto freenet :)
[11:02] <kers> toad_: yeahyeah ;)
[11:02] <toad_> but maybe he'll do some gratis work for us
[11:03] <tessier> Maybe. He's a cool guy
[11:03] <tessier> He's big into python.
[11:03] <toad_> i can see why he'd want to be paid
[11:03] <toad_> it's not that it's lucrative, but it's a great motivator
[11:03] <toad_> /enabler
[11:04] <tessier> So what good is a bunch of opterons going to do you if the simulator is single threaded?
[11:04] <toad_> not much :(
[11:04] <d-ArkAngel> lots of simulations :-)
[11:04] <toad_> given the slowness of the routing, we could probably make it multithreaded
[11:04] <toad_> but that'd be some work...
[11:08] * toad_ wonders if after 0.6, or even the appeal, we'll have the $ to try out KenMan
[11:08] <toad_> say we get $4K
[11:08] <toad_> that wouldn't be unheard of
[11:08] <toad_> we could buy two months for me
[11:09] <toad_> or we could buy a month each, and hope the extra debugging/etc manpower pays off
[11:09] <toad_> i think it probably would...
[11:09] * kers (~kers@62.ppp144.rsd.worldonline.se) Quit ("Leaving")
[11:11] <d-ArkAngel> well I'll be donateing some of my time to the project, I'd donate some money but haveing just bought a house me budget is streched to breaking point, so time is all I can give you guys :-)
[11:12] <toad_> lol :)
[11:12] <toad_> my problem is that my time is convertible
[11:12] <toad_> meaning i'm self employed and lazy ! ;)
[11:12] <d-ArkAngel> well that and CPU time (which you've had a better offer of I see :-) )
[11:12] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: maybe
[11:12] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: I still need yours
[11:12] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: or is that the daytime-only one?
[11:12] <d-ArkAngel> it's still yours
[11:12] <toad_> daytime-only is a PITA
[11:12] <d-ArkAngel> it's 24x7 now
[11:13] <toad_> it is? what changed?
[11:13] <d-ArkAngel> I've made a couple of modifications so it's quite enough to let me sleep with it on
[11:13] <toad_> cool
[11:13] <toad_> I appreciate the sacrifice
[11:13] <toad_> and when I have some more simulations to run, I'll log in and run some
[11:13] <toad_> since I want the ones on the other server to continue for some time
[11:13] <d-ArkAngel> Like I said, it's not like I can afford to donate anything else :-)
[11:14] <toad_> I tried to have mine on 24x7 in my bedroom
[11:14] <toad_> it DID NOT work
[11:14] <toad_> well it did sorta
[11:14] <toad_> but i'm glad we eventually moved it
[11:14] <toad_> if you don't have the space to move it... :(
[11:14] <d-ArkAngel> I've got 2 other boxes that run 24x7 but they are mini-itx boxes with no moving parts
[11:14] <toad_> if you've got a closet or something you could put it in you can run extensions for monitor, USB, sound...
[11:14] <d-ArkAngel> but thier processing power is pittiful, so no real use for this kind of activity
[11:15] <toad_> that's what I did
[11:15] <toad_> unfortunately I don't think there's enough airflow there to support anything hotter than 1xXP
[11:15] <toad_> it barely manages that
[11:16] <d-ArkAngel> well I've got a new house to move into at some point in the next 4 weeks or so, so either I'll leave this box here on 24x7 for you to use till I get broad band in the new house, or I'll run it 24x7 there, and we'll have to setup some way for you to get access... maybe I can set it up to accept a dial up for you to connect through...
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> but between now and then the CPU time is almost all yours (if I can find a decent GFX driver for my box maybe I can free up the 20% of one of the CPU's that X uses :-)
[11:18] <toad_> 20%? woah
[11:18] <toad_> that's pretty bad
[11:18] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, I said it was using a generic frame buffer driver didn't I? :-)
[11:19] <toad_> i thought the dp opteron boards came with good cards integrated - for 2D anyway
[11:19] <toad_> rage pro and stuff like that
[11:19] <toad_> which i think is ati mach64 for driver purposes...
[11:19] <d-ArkAngel> this one's a workstation board with an AGP slot. different market bonuses
[11:20] <toad_> ahhh
[11:20] <toad_> why does it have integrated gfx at all then?
[11:20] <d-ArkAngel> I've got a fair few cards arround the place, I might swap one out if any of them have better drivers.
[11:21] <d-ArkAngel> don't think so.
[11:21] <toad_> i bet most of them do
[11:21] <toad_> we have pretty good 2d support nowadays
[11:21] <d-ArkAngel> indeed
[11:21] <d-ArkAngel> if only this was an R250 :-)
[11:21] <toad_> :)
[11:21] * toad_ likes his R250
[11:21] <d-ArkAngel> :-P
[11:21] * toad_ probably will get an nvidia next time
[11:21] * nextgens|away is now known as nextgens
[11:21] <d-ArkAngel> yeah I'm leaning the same way
[11:21] <toad_> because the ati closed drivers suck
[11:22] <d-ArkAngel> thier closed drivers do look nice.
[11:22] <toad_> the nv closed drivers are better
[11:22] <d-ArkAngel> it's a shame we have to have closed drivers at all tho really.
[11:22] <d-ArkAngel> still better closed than none at all.
[11:22] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: yes...
[11:22] <toad_> a friend told me that the movie studios want open drivers
[11:22] <toad_> for the same reason they use open OSs - not just cost but hackability
[11:23] <toad_> so we may yet get them
[11:23] <d-ArkAngel> well we can only hope that it's enough pressuer.
[11:23] <toad_> now, simulations:
[11:23] <toad_> how to bootstrap?
[11:23] <toad_> create a 25x25 fully connected network
[11:23] <toad_> do say 100,000 requests at htl say 5
[11:23] <toad_> then start adding nodes
[11:23] <d-ArkAngel> why not creat a network with a random number of connections.
[11:24] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: hrrm?
[11:24] <d-ArkAngel> rahter than going for fully connected.
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[11:24] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: I'm going for non-fully-connected
[11:24] <toad_> but getting the bootstrapping right is probably quite important
[11:24] <toad_> I want to do 400x25
[11:24] <toad_> ultimately
[11:24] <cbreak> chose a few seednodes, and connect all new ones to them...
[11:25] <toad_> ewww, nasty centralized topology
[11:25] <d-ArkAngel> I mean rather than 25 fully connected nodes, make all the nodes, then for each node select x random nodes to connect it to.
[11:25] * toad_ is leaning towards oskar's ideas in the long term...
[11:25] <toad_> yes
[11:25] <toad_> ahhh
[11:25] <toad_> no
[11:25] <toad_> not a good idea
[11:25] <toad_> you'd get islands
[11:25] <toad_> and you want to add nodes to an existing reasonably working network
[11:25] <d-ArkAngel> you can balance the probability of that tho
[11:26] <d-ArkAngel> and there's no reason that the real network is protected from developing islands...
[11:26] <toad_> so.. create a 25x25. run say 100k requests - that's 100k/625=160 requests per route per node
[11:26] <cbreak> Do you want to add new nodes like it's done in reality or like it would be done idealy?
[11:26] <d-ArkAngel> especialy when slash dotters join and then leave.
[11:26] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: there's a difference between developing islands and designing them in!
[11:26] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[11:26] <toad_> cbreak: I want to do best case first, then modify it with seednodes and so on
[11:27] <d-ArkAngel> how about this then...
[11:27] <toad_> after this... do the following: run say 50k requests. add a node connected to 25 random nodes from the current network.
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[11:27] <d-ArkAngel> it shouldn't be too hard to make a section of code that makes a randomly connected map, but avoid islands....
[11:27] <toad_> repeat until we reach 400 nodes
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[11:27] <toad_> that'll be a total of hmmm 20M requests
[11:28] <toad_> that's not so good
[11:28] <d-ArkAngel> in theory you should be able to detect any islands, and break all those nodes connections and re-randomies thier links to "knitt" it back into the network
[11:28] <toad_> if we make it 10k reqs after each add, then we can boot in 4M reqs
[11:28] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: i suppose...
[11:28] * toad_ thinks bootstrapping it is going to work better
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[11:28] <toad_> and will be more realistic too
[11:29] <d-ArkAngel> I might not understand the routing, but I might be able to put together a way to realisiticaly start a sumulator.
[11:29] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: well that might be useful to prove that it can knit islands back together
[11:29] <d-ArkAngel> your right, but the problem is that you still have a CORE fully connected Block sat int the middle of the network
[11:30] <toad_> yeah, and?
[11:30] <toad_> well it won't remain that way actually
[11:30] <d-ArkAngel> does the real freenet have a fully connected block?
[11:30] <toad_> it'll be diluted by all the new consn
[11:30] <toad_> because the conn limit is 25
[11:30] <toad_> :)
[11:30] <toad_> but yes it may get somewhat centralized
[11:30] <toad_> but it's not far from how we bootstrap a network IRL
[11:30] <d-ArkAngel> but the new connections will only be formed, there will still be a fully connected block in the center, like a routing hub if you will.
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[11:31] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: initially
[11:31] <toad_> if freenet can't recover from that, we're stuffed irl anyway
[11:31] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: the new conns will displace old conns
[11:31] <d-ArkAngel> ahhh, I see.
[11:32] <d-ArkAngel> so the simulation is looking at network forming not just routing arround a network...
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[11:32] <d-ArkAngel> Bugger!! I'm soppused to be at the cinema in 25 min! Back this evening!
[11:32] <toad_> well connections are necessarily dynamic
[11:32] <toad_> ah
[11:32] <toad_> seeya :)
[11:33] <d-ArkAngel> the box will be free for a good 6-7 hours if you want to play
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[11:33] <d-ArkAngel> (try not to break anything :-) )
[11:33] <d-ArkAngel> BBL
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[12:14] <toad_> okay, preliminary 400x25 simulator w/ no announcements, but with LRU etc...
[12:14] <toad_> starting up...
[12:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad
[12:15] <i2p_iip> <gott> toad
[12:15] <toad_> gott
[12:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> I would like you to know
[12:16] <toad_> bootstrapping...
[12:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> that unlike Reskill
[12:16] <i2p_iip> <gott> I won't ever abandon you
[12:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> despite the fact you are british
[12:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> and you work for Danny Bo
[12:17] <toad_> 50k reqs on the 25x25...
[12:17] <i2p_iip> <gott> Boy
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[12:27] <toad_> running...
[12:27] <toad_> it'll take 10 minutes or so for the bootstrap phase...
[12:27] <toad_> but there are no instant-death bugs now...
[12:28] <toad_> so far
[12:30] <i2p_iip> <gott> so how did that make you feel, toad ?
[12:30] <i2p_iip> <gott> the announcement made by Reskill ?
[12:33] <toad_> what announcement?
[12:34] <i2p_iip> <gott> the one made by Reskill after leaving Freenet and giving YoYo to Fillament
[12:34] <toad_> ahhh
[12:34] <toad_> what did he say?
[12:34] <i2p_iip> <gott> bad things about you and Danny Boy
[12:35] <i2p_iip> <gott> http://127.0.0.1:8888/SSK@zdF3raHDyW9~BozcbXumra~1Oj4PAgM,ir1aZjV61mwofQpcXD9HDQ/SonaxFlog//
[12:35] <i2p_iip> <gott> check it out there. it's in italics on the september 3 entry
[12:37] <i2p_iip> <gott> t is of my opinion that the money being donated to the project is being used to achieve the goals of other agendas, besides freenets, and that really the whole thing is just an algorythm whore for Clarkorythms Ltd. I've been uncomfortable with a lot of aspects of freenet for as long as I can remember, but this last six months have convinced me that freenet really isn't benefitting anyone, and that my time, bandwidth and money would be better spen
[12:38] <i2p_iip> <gott> oh dear
[12:38] <i2p_iip> <gott> spent on something showing a little more promise (i2p).
[12:38] <i2p_iip> <gott> losing more people to i2p :/
[12:39] <toad_> if i thought that i2p was ready for serious use, i'd use it for a premix layer
[12:39] <toad_> well i might
[12:39] <cbreak> i2p and freenet work completely different.
[12:39] <toad_> there'd be a good chance
[12:39] <toad_> yes
[12:39] <toad_> I could use it as an off the shelf premix layer
[12:39] <toad_> however jrandom tells me it's not ready for that
[12:40] <toad_> gott: ugh
[12:40] <toad_> what's he pissed off about technically? i mean everything except inserts works reasonably on 5095, right?
[12:43] <i2p_iip> <gott> i2p works well with transient nodes due to its network size of 60 nodes
[12:43] <i2p_iip> <gott> i2p works well with transient nodes due to its network size of 60 nodes
[12:43] <i2p_iip> <gott> conversely, Freenet does not work well with 'transient 24/7' nodes due to its network size of several thousand nodes
[12:43] <toad_> |If Freenet makes it to 1.0 then of course I'll be glad to here that, and will be interested to read the blurb, but I still wouldn't come back.
[12:43] <toad_> LOL
[12:43] <toad_> he'll eat his words... :)
[12:44] <toad_> lol gott, yeah :)
[12:44] <toad_> anything works well with transient nodes with 60 nodes
[12:44] <toad_> I have every confidence that jrandom is far more competent a creator of this kind of technology than the toad.
[12:44] <toad_> how nice
[12:45] <i2p_iip> <gott> I can't comment on that. I'm biased toward people with British accents.
[12:45] <i2p_iip> <gott> While Britain is not part of Europe, it's at least closer than the states.
[12:46] <toad_> :)
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> I think that what's giving a lot of people a false sense of Freenet sucking is that its performance is slow.
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> Not network wise, but rather processor wise.
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> i2p is much more efficient.
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <gott> and doesn't take up 70 - 150 megs of RAM
[12:48] <toad_> perhaps
[12:49] <toad_> 5096 actually makes significant gains on CPU
[12:49] <toad_> but even RAM - I don't see the problem
[12:49] <toad_> we have very few third world users
[12:49] <toad_> somebody like reskill is a deep geek and has probably half a gig, maybe a gig or more
[12:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> my node is taking up 100+ megs
[12:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> this is unacceptable
[12:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> not everyone has high-end systems where they can afford to run Freenet and Frost together without a ridiculous slow-down due to swap file usage
[12:50] <toad_> gott: sure, but given moore's law, it is expedient to make the thing work before we make it work on a zx-81
[12:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> true
[12:51] <i2p_iip> <gott> however while you are making it work, you will lose people because they don't see any immediate gains
[12:51] <i2p_iip> <gott> and that is why Reskill leaves ...
[12:51] <toad_> well i don't know why he managed to miss the massive gains made by queueing
[12:52] <toad_> well i suppose the reason is simply that inserts suck lemons with the 5095 queueing code
[12:53] <toad_> hmmm
[12:53] <toad_> bbiab
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[12:56] <i2p_iip> <gott> don't worry about it, toad
[12:56] <i2p_iip> <gott> just keep on trying
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[14:00] <toad_> hi ppl
[14:00] * toad_ will be here for the next hour or so...
[14:04] <toad_> running...
[14:04] <toad_> coming up to 100k reqs...
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[14:40] <KenMan> toad: given that queueing has brought backoff WAY down (has it done this globally?) could inserts avoid queueing and still get roughly where they need to go ?
[14:41] <KenMan> i understand that you want them to be *more* accurate than request routing, if possible, but... could this be a viable option ?
[14:43] <KenMan> my node (with 80 peers) is averaging 30 backed off at any given time. This is blowing my mind. How did you do it ?
[14:49] <KenMan> did you tinker with estimatedLoad ? at 12KB/s out, I'm getting about 1Kqph . What will happen to qph if I run at 18KB/s ??
[14:51] <KenMan> what will happen to % of routes backed off ? only one way to find out...
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[15:09] <KenMan> Load due to output bandwidth limiting = 114.9% - yup, that's the reason.
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[15:18] <d-ArkAngel> just updated, it seems my node is much slower at starting up... (time between ./start-freenet and the server being accessable via http)
[15:19] <d-ArkAngel> I thought it was broken at first, but I was distracted from my computer long enough to let it start up (I'd been stopping it earlier before)
[15:19] <KenMan> how big is the datastore ?
[15:20] <i2p_iip> <tobias> i've been having a few problems with 5096 - it seems my node is alot lazier.
[15:21] <KenMan> meaning what ? fewer queries processed ?
[15:21] <cbreak> the new stable has longer timeouts
[15:21] <d-ArkAngel> ahh I suppose it is the first time I've started it up after it's been running for a while.... I suppose it could just be looking throught the datastore (low performance HDD, and low speed processor proably account for it.)
[15:22] <i2p_iip> <tobias> i mean, it instantly rnfs on any half-popular key (find, yoyo), but it succeeds with lesser-known keys. my node generally seems to want to do less work.
[15:22] <d-ArkAngel> The data store is up to 1.1Gb
[15:23] <i2p_iip> <tobias> also, lots of these - "Please close() me manually in finalizer". like more than 5095.
[15:23] <cbreak> tobias: maybe because it made 5095 mandatory and you don't have enough connections.
[15:24] <cbreak> older nodes are not considered worth contacting.
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[15:25] <KenMan> i added secret ingredient X and have had over 70 peers for 5+ hours... (80 max)
[15:25] <i2p_iip> <tobias> well, i thought it might be that. however even after leaving it running for awhile (several hours), and with many (several pages) of connections on the connections page, it still instantly rnfs on popular keys.
[15:26] <i2p_iip> <tobias> so i've just trashed the routing table and reseeded, cause i recall that one build awhile back required that to work.
[15:26] <KenMan> if you look at your routing table page, what do you see for "Contacted node references" & "Backed off nodes" ??
[15:26] <i2p_iip> <tobias> we'll see how that goes
[15:26] <cbreak> trashing the RT is only neccessary on a network reset.
[15:27] <KenMan> and the software will do it for you too :) no need to bring the hammer down on your RT files.
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[15:28] <d-ArkAngel> There might not be a need for a lot of things, but sometimes it's just needed for the fun of it :-)
[15:28] <i2p_iip> <tobias> Contacted node references 42. Backed off nodes 29. it's been running for 20 mins with new rt files. but seriously, frost retrieved no new messages in 4 hours with the old rt-files.
[15:29] <cbreak> 42 is not much, but 29 backed of is. You only have 13 valid peers...
[15:29] <cbreak> I somehow doubt, you will have much sucess with that...
[15:29] <KenMan> actually, that is very good for 20 minutes after startup !!
[15:29] <i2p_iip> <tobias> maybe i should try not running frost and fuqid for awhile so my node isn't getting hammered.
[15:29] <KenMan> yes, let it breath for an hour or two, at least, before you pound on it
[15:30] <i2p_iip> <tobias> per-node failure tables didn't make it into this build, did it?
[15:30] <cbreak> no
[15:30] <cbreak> also insert ds skip is not in it, and request coalescing neither.
[15:31] <d-ArkAngel> just thinking about this. 5096 can still talk to 5095, and 5095 can still talk to 5090, so in theory the network could be becomming "stretched" out couldn't it? So there are some old nodes but they all have a minimum distance HTL wise from people on newest clients... (just thinking here)
[15:31] <d-ArkAngel> do network resets really prevent that from being the case?
[15:31] <cbreak> the 5095 might not be fast enough to bridge all transfers...
[15:32] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[15:32] <KenMan> some do some dont. There are two kinds of 'reset'
[15:33] <d-ArkAngel> you see what I mean tho, I wonder if there's any forgotten islands out there. :-)
[15:33] <i2p_iip> <tobias> often, when lastGoodBuild is upped, i notice that the node is not as happy for awhile (presumably until the majority of nodes have upgraded)
[15:33] <KenMan> it is all black magic (when it works) anyway...
[15:33] <d-ArkAngel> :-)
[15:34] <d-ArkAngel> I wonder if we could put something on the nodes front page that says something like "newer stable versions have been seen on the network it is reccomened that you run the update script now" or something.
[15:35] <i2p_iip> <tobias> that would be reasonably easy to abuse
[15:36] <cbreak> there already is something like that.
[15:36] <KenMan> yes, and it is 'abuse resistant'
[15:36] <d-ArkAngel> true, but it would help which the network is still developing, pre 1.0
[15:36] <d-ArkAngel> I guess post 1.0 the rate of updates to the stable network will step down and it won't be as critical....
[15:37] <d-ArkAngel> because the development would reasonable need to be on a development network.
[15:37] <cbreak> what do you want added?
[15:39] <d-ArkAngel> I don't know, I'm mostly thinking out loud here... maybe there could be a way to distribute the node updates throught the network...
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[15:39] <d-ArkAngel> using a signature to control distribution.
[15:39] <cbreak> I think it is faster like it's now, just distributing the announcements :)
[15:40] <cbreak> freenets speed still is kind of... limited...
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[15:42] <d-ArkAngel> true, but it might be interesting to see how it would spread throught the network, as clients are updated thier peers start requesting the update, if it's splitfile into many smaller blocks then it should be fairly fast to retreive if every node is wanting it, and you only ask for it when you have a neighbourgu that has the file even if no-one else can route to it....
[15:42] <i2p_iip> <salgo> on the official webpages are goodies like this one: "In addition to its anonymity features, Freenet is also an effective way to distribute large files - often achieving download speeds faster than other content distribution systems."
[15:42] <cbreak> marketing speech :)
[15:42] <d-ArkAngel> tho I suspect that would be a problem given that the routing would probably learn from the one file distrobution....
[15:43] <d-ArkAngel> the website looks to me like it's written in antisipation of 1.0 :-)
[15:44] <d-ArkAngel> anyway, I'm off out again, might be back in 3 hours or so. have an enjoyable evening.
[15:44] <i2p_iip> <tobias> it shouldn't break the routing anymore than, for example, find does, should it?
[15:44] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> d-ArkAngel: The distribution of the new builds have been discussed before. It all comes down to that toad (and other devels) don't trust them selves to sign new builds, and so you cant get new builds confirmed as comming from the project and then starting to distribute it (in one way or another) is a secondary problem...
[15:45] <d-ArkAngel> the problem is that if every node has the data then the requests will squew the learning a little...
[15:46] <d-ArkAngel> you could try a split key approach, whereby one person alone dosn't have the power to sign it... make it a "run by commity" type afair. or "peer approved"
[15:47] <d-ArkAngel> there's always problems with such things, and how can end users really trust any software, developers will always be in a position to abuse the users.
[15:47] <i2p_iip> <Sonax> I will be happy to support you in trying to get this through to toad, but history shows you would be wasting you'r time :)
[15:47] <d-ArkAngel> because lets face it most don't have a clue (hell most developers don't either :-) )
[15:48] <d-ArkAngel> you can sell any idea to anyone as long as you pick the right merrits to sell it on :-)
[15:48] <d-ArkAngel> anyway, I really am off out now :-) catch you in 3-4
[15:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> Had an interesting chat with a woman from China today.
[15:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> About encryption and freedom.
[15:49] <i2p_iip> <gott> She does hardware encryption things.
[15:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> Only recently came to Canada.
[15:50] <i2p_iip> <gott> Interesting highlights 'Before I came to Canada, I only thought the Chinese downloaded movies and music from the internet. I thought everyone in the west was afraid of getting arrested for it.'
[15:54] <i2p_iip> <salgo> downloading movies is like masturbating, every does it, but no one talks about it in public
[15:55] <i2p_iip> <gott> What means masturbating ?
[15:56] <i2p_iip> <tobias> heh, i don't download movies. it's much better to borrow one from the video store and copy it. :)
[15:56] <i2p_iip> <gott> 'borrow one' ?
[15:57] <i2p_iip> <gott> I suppose renting at a cost of 0 dollars could be considered that
[15:57] <i2p_iip> <salgo> @tobias: i guess you downloaded some mpthrees?
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[15:59] <i2p_iip> <tobias> yeah - plenty of mp3s, but if i could rent (there, that better? :P) cds from a store of some sort i would probably copy them too.
[16:02] <cbreak> here we have libraries, which not only allow you to rent books, but also CDs... :)
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[16:02] <i2p_iip> <tobias> don't get me wrong - i'm all for paying the artist for music, but the music i download i probably wouldn't have bought anyway. also, i often preview the cds i do but by downloading some mp3s from it first. so no-one really loses and some artists win.
[16:04] <i2p_iip> <tobias> yeah my local libraries have some cds but the majority of them are classical or not my style.
[16:05] <cbreak> Radio=
[16:05] <i2p_iip> <tobias> btw, is it legal to download and use old classical mp3s cause the copyrights have expired, or is the individual performance still copyright?
[16:06] <cbreak> I think the Performance is copyrighted. So you could download the music in paper form, but not in audio form.
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[16:08] <i2p_iip> <tobias> ahh. but, for example, 40s music would probably be fair game, as long as it was an original recording.
[16:09] <cbreak> I think I read somewhere that (C) expires 70(?) Years after the Death of the owner.
[16:10] <i2p_iip> <tobias> i see.
[16:12] <cbreak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
[16:12] <KenMan> actually, the only thing that matters, in practice, is how rich the owner is.
[16:13] <KenMan> He can purchase an indefinite length of copyright, if it is perceived as beneficial to do so.
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[16:18] * toad_ committed new simulation
[16:18] <toad_> see the commit message
[16:18] * toad_ needs to get up early tomorrow for the Trade Justice Movement demo in Brighton
[16:18] * toad_ will now have dinner and watch a film with ppl
[16:18] * toad_ will see you all on monday, or thereabouts.
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[16:22] <cbreak> attack of the clones...
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[16:42] <hirvox> hmm, a compile error on latest unstable
[16:44] <hirvox> /home/hirvox/rpm/BUILD/fred-0.6/src/freenet/node/simulator/Node.java
[16:44] <hirvox> :11: package com.sun.rsasign does not exist
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[18:29] <i2p_iip> <gott> you around, Danny Boy ?
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[19:04] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Anyone awake?
[19:04] <d-ArkAngel> probably.
[19:06] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> I'm having problems with the YoYo updater and I'm not sure what I should be investigating. Right now it manages to retrieve the same handful of sites, but no others. It doesn't retrieve sites that I can easily retrieve through fproxy... not even sites inserted by the same node.
[19:08] <d-ArkAngel> is this with 5096?
[19:09] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> 5095... the time when I was concious and had a chance to update, YoYo was running an update... let's see if I can upgrade now...
[19:09] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> 5095... the time when I was concious and had a chance to update, YoYo was running an update... let's see if I can upgrade now...
[19:09] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Visit http://CyberLore.net for recommendations on the best games, websites and freeware. Don't settle for anything else!")
[19:09] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Nope... running still or again
[19:11] <d-ArkAngel> there was a little talk of 5096 nodes being very slow at getting up to speed in terms of connections... I wonder if the network updateing to 5096 is causing you problems...
[19:11] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> No, it's been this way for a couple versions
[19:13] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> The exact same software was working fine for Reskill (I know, I wrote it). For FCP, I'm using an old/simpler version of the FcpTools from Frost
[19:14] <d-ArkAngel> well I've only been arround the project the last couple of days, so I'm only really able to parrot what's been going on in this chanel for the last couple of days..
[19:14] <d-ArkAngel> Sorry I can't be much more help :-(
[19:15] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> It's cool. It's just bugging me that YoYo's Updates page is blank when I know there are updated sites out there
[19:16] <d-ArkAngel> anything you want me to try on my node?
[19:17] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aan156.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit ()
[19:18] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> No, but thanks. I'm reasonably confident that the problem is on my end, I just don't know where to look. I'm (very) slowly implementing my own FCP library but don't want to base a live, gateway site on alpha quality code. Of course, what I have isn't working at all so maybe it's not a bad idea
[19:34] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aan156.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[20:17] <d-ArkAngel> does freenet need J2EE to compile?
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[20:46] <mazzanet> no
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> when trying to compile I keep getting this error... "http://192.18.97.53/ECom/EComTicketServlet/BEGINjsecom16c.sun.com-277a9%3A41560274%3A95d0aee67aca2bd/-2147483648/533015427/1/524858/524822/533015427/2ts+/westCoastFSEND/j2eesdk-1.4-2004Q4-beta-oth-JPR/j2eesdk-1.4-2004Q4-beta-oth-JPR:2/j2eesdk-1_4_2004Q4-beta-linux.bin"
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> doh
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> not that :-9
[20:50] <d-ArkAngel> "package javax.servlet.http does not exist"
[20:51] <d-ArkAngel> it's driving me potty.
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[20:57] <i2p_iip> <FillaMent> Anyone FCP savvy around?
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.
