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[6:32] <toad_> hmmm
[6:33] <toad_> looks like any sort of announcement tends to mess things up with NGR
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[6:41] <toad_> LOL @ CofE title
[6:42] <toad_> "Because in Freenet nobody knows who's screaming"
[6:43] <toad_> bbiab
[6:44] * toad_ thinks there's a problem with insert timeouts.. will look at it a little later
[6:44] <toad_> when the background backupjob has stopped bzip2ing, and I've frozen the bzip2
[6:44] <toad_> err the sim
[7:00] <toad_> what's the std. dev. of a uniformly distributed variable? hmm, i don't suppose queue time actually IS evenly distributed... I'll just add the whole value to the timeout - hopTime(x) + x * maxQueueTimePerHop(size,isInsert)*x
[7:00] <toad_> later
[7:09] * Zorix hopes there is a new version soon
[7:12] <toad_> there will be
[7:14] <Zorix> yay heh
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[8:12] * toad_ back
[8:28] * toad_ fixing timeouts
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[8:39] <toad_> hmmm
[8:39] <toad_> I think we need a fixed queueing time for all file sizes...
[8:40] <toad_> not doing so seems to have some distorting influence on routing
[8:40] <toad_> doing so would also simplify things a bit...
[8:40] <toad_> hmmm
[8:41] <toad_> otoh, arguably big files need to be queued longer or they won't get sent at all...
[8:41] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ()
[8:42] * toad_ observes his requestQueueingSuccess... WOAH!
[8:42] <toad_> Binomial:
[8:42] <toad_> requestQueueingSuccess
[8:42] <toad_> The number of requests queued, and the number sent
[8:42] <toad_> Aggregated over every minute . Recorded aggregates over day:
[8:42] <toad_> Time Tries Successes Ratio
[8:43] <toad_> 8/25/04 12:00:00 AM BST 204901 203532 0.9933187246523931
[8:43] <toad_> 8/26/04 12:00:00 AM BST 52044 49471 0.9505610637153178
[8:43] <toad_> 8/27/04 12:00:00 AM BST 169051 167029 0.9880391124571875
[8:43] <toad_> 8/28/04 12:00:00 AM BST 31845 31375 0.9852410111477469
[8:43] <toad_> 8/29/04 12:00:00 AM BST 94509 94471 0.9995979218910368
[8:43] <toad_> 8/30/04 12:00:00 AM BST 33944 33944 1.0
[8:43] <toad_> 8/31/04 12:00:00 AM BST 35904 35867 0.9989694741532977
[8:43] <toad_> 9/1/04 12:00:00 AM BST 47348 47348 1.0
[8:43] <toad_> 9/2/04 12:00:00 AM BST 42152 41955 0.9953264376542038
[8:43] <toad_> 9/3/04 12:00:00 AM BST 27062 27015 0.9982632473579188
[8:43] <toad_> 9/4/04 12:00:00 AM BST 39785 39785 1.0
[8:43] <toad_> 9/7/04 12:00:00 AM BST 23648 23630 0.9992388362652233
[8:43] <toad_> 9/8/04 12:00:00 AM BST 36716 36597 0.9967589061989324
[8:43] <toad_> 9/9/04 12:00:00 AM BST 14803 13702 0.9256231844896304
[8:43] <toad_> 9/10/04 12:00:00 AM BST 42951 40988 0.9542967567693418
[8:43] <toad_> 9/16/04 12:00:00 AM BST 4419 4219 0.9547408916044354
[8:43] <toad_> is queueing great or what?
[8:48] <toad_> 7 at 99%+, all but 1 at 95%+, out of 16
[8:49] <toad_> Single hop probability of QueryRejected 0.018
[8:49] <toad_> Single hop probability of early timeout 0.602
[8:49] <toad_> Single hop probability of search timeout 0.127
[8:49] <toad_> what does this mean? early timeout has taken over from RNF as the main problem
[8:49] <toad_> this is because we didn't adjust the timeouts for queueing
[8:54] <toad_> hmmmm
[8:54] <toad_> Single hop probability of early timeout 0.602
[8:54] <toad_> Single hop average time for early timeout 19420.173783245486
[8:54] <toad_> hrrrrrm
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[9:34] <toad_> hi Zorix
[10:09] <hobx_> Did I scare everyone away by posting math to the list?
[10:10] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[10:10] <toad_> hi sanity hobx_
[10:10] <sanity> hi toad
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[10:12] <sanity> toad: any interesting new simulation results?
[10:12] <toad_> sanity: some
[10:12] <toad_> e.g. announcements seem harmful on NGR, no matter how they are implemented
[10:12] <toad_> some tweaks are more important than expected
[10:12] <toad_> nothing major
[10:13] <toad_> but i haven't implemented a simulator with connections yet
[10:13] <toad_> i'm going to run the sims for a while to get some better graphs
[10:13] <toad_> meanwhile, i'm working on timeouts
[10:13] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[10:13] <Redb3ard> is the math gone yet?
[10:13] <toad_> lol
[10:14] <sanity> fair enough
[10:15] <toad_> sanity: did you see my posts on devl?
[10:15] <toad_> do you have a node? what does it get for queuesuccess?
[10:16] <sanity> afraid not running one right now, i was worried that it might have been screwing up my internet connection
[10:16] <sanity> what exactly does queuesuccess measure?
[10:17] <toad_> requestQueueingSuccess
[10:17] <toad_> The number of requests queued, and the number sent
[10:17] <sanity> why would a request not get sent?
[10:17] <toad_> a request not getting sent corresponds to an instant RNF
[10:17] <toad_> prior to queueing
[10:18] <toad_> we were having a lot of them - maybe 30% on a busy node
[10:18] <toad_> a request would not get sent because there wasn't anywhere found for it to go, during the time it was queued, that wasn't taken by another request
[10:18] <sanity> ooh, so basically we have almost no RNFs now?
[10:18] <toad_> no instant ones anyway
[10:19] <sanity> good
[10:19] <toad_> but this IS a low traffic node
[10:19] <sanity> what is psuccess looking like?
[10:19] <toad_> i need results from less low traffic nodes
[10:20] <toad_> reasonable, not spectacular
[10:20] <toad_> around 5% for routingSuccessRatioCHKNoRNF daily's
[10:20] <toad_> varying a lot
[10:24] <toad_> sanity: did you see my remarks about possible effect of queueing times being different for different sized keys?
[10:25] <sanity> brb- phone
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[10:51] <toad_> starting node with new timeouts...
[11:01] <nextgens> hi
[11:07] <toad_> hi
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[11:18] <nextgens> toad_: I've got a new problem : I added more ram to my computer in order to reduce the Overload ... and now, I'm getting a lot of "Too high probability" messages ... my node is still a bit overloaded... Is it normal?
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[11:19] <nextgens> toad_: grep "Too high probability" freenet.log| wc -l -> 58550
[11:19] <toad_> strange
[11:19] <toad_> never seen that here
[11:19] <nextgens> toad_: my node uptime : Uptime: ? 0 days, ? 17 hours, ? 25 minutes
[11:20] <nextgens> but it works fairly better :-)
[11:20] * goatee (~goatee@ip216-239-82-182.vif.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[11:21] <nextgens> toad_: here is the exact message index value is moving ... : Sep 17, 2004 5:42:50 AM (freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage, YThread-180, ERROR): Too high probability: 1.01 while kludging freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage@88f1c5 (-10 0s, 1010 1s, 1000 total), init=0.5, index=959
[11:22] <toad_> yes, i know
[11:22] <toad_> i've seen it
[11:22] <toad_> but not here
[11:22] <toad_> I've seen reports of it
[11:22] <toad_> I've added a little debugging code that will go into 5096
[11:22] <toad_> but i can't really debug it unless i can reproduce it here
[11:22] <toad_> or unless you want to run a jar for me
[11:23] <nextgens> no need to worry so? the only thing that enoy me is that my logfile is >= 115Mo :-(
[11:23] <toad_> well there's clearly a bug
[11:23] <toad_> it may be an important bug i don't know
[11:24] <nextgens> Your account on my box is still valid if you'd like to check ...
[11:24] <toad_> if you want me to send you a jar with some changes that hopefully will fix it, i can do that, when i get around to it
[11:24] <toad_> but i rather think if i do it'll just hide
[11:24] <toad_> :|
[11:25] <nextgens> :| as you want : I've got time now ...
[11:25] <toad_> actually it's possible that the changes fix the problem
[11:25] <toad_> anyway i'm tracing this insert at the moment.. will you still be here in an hour or so?
[11:25] <nextgens> yes
[11:27] <hobx_> So are the mailing lists down now?
[11:27] <toad_> hobx_: no
[11:27] <hobx_> it went very quiet suddenly
[11:27] <nextgens> does someone know if Zirvox managed to make is Mozilla hack to work?
[11:34] * Zorix (Brandon@fl-69-69-7-231.dyn.sprint-hsd.net) has joined #freenet
[11:41] <nextgens> *making a freenet plugin for mozilla based on mozex
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[11:45] <nextgens> Zorix: hi
[11:45] <nextgens> Zorix: I was wondering : does your mozilla freenet plugin works?
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[12:11] <toad_> hmmm
[12:11] <toad_> we seem to have lost all our calls to ft.restarted()
[12:11] <toad_> except for those involved in forwarding it
[12:11] <toad_> this is a little strange...
[12:23] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[12:25] <toad_> hi jay
[12:25] <jay> lo toad
[12:25] <jay> toad_: ill bite on the nodeconfig.exe win problem
[12:26] <toad_> Sep 17, 2004 5:44:12 PM-Transfer ended with 462 bytes moved.
[12:26] <toad_> Sep 17, 2004 5:44:32 PM-The query was restarted somewhere on Freenet after a node failed to reply, waiting another 218 seconds before I give up
[12:26] <jay> ill reboot into windows and check it out
[12:26] <toad_> Sep 17, 2004 5:44:36 PM-The query was restarted somewhere on Freenet after a node failed to reply, waiting another 436 seconds before I give up
[12:26] <toad_> the first one is a QueryRejected, or possibly an early-timeout
[12:26] <toad_> the second one is going to AwaitingStoreData
[12:27] <jay> toad_: ppl on Frost mostly seem very pleased with current stable
[12:27] <jay> there's been a lot of comments on it
[12:27] <jay> and they never make it to the actual mailing lists
[12:28] <toad_> of course not...
[12:28] <toad_> there are 3 big issues i have seen reported:
[12:28] <toad_> the timeouts, and other issues with inserts
[12:28] <jay> i've been following the timeout issue.. i don't get it
[12:28] <toad_> the probability greater than 1.0 thing
[12:28] <toad_> and something else :)
[12:29] <jay> GCJ compilation too but that's outside our control
[12:30] <toad_> heh
[12:30] <jay> when i fixed fcplib's usage of Timeout on Pending messages things worked better but in general my 'transient' node isn't the best example of a well-kept freenet node
[12:30] <jay> so i can't say if inserts are better/worse, but that's a complaint i've heard
[12:30] <jay> that they're slower for some people
[12:30] <jay> does the timeout issue have anything to do with this?
[12:31] <toad_> the timeout issue has a lot to do with this
[12:32] <toad_> you're probably thinking of a different timeout issue :)
[12:32] <jay> probably
[12:32] <jay> im looking into the nodeconfig source
[12:32] <nextgens> my $0.02 : I'vegot timeouts issue but insert works well ;-)
[12:32] <jay> brb.. reboot
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[12:32] <nextgens> inserts work
[12:33] <toad_> nextgens: insert works well?
[12:33] <nextgens> yes; as download
[12:33] <toad_> that's curious, it's not exactly what CofE is saying
[12:33] <toad_> you on unstable or stable?
[12:33] <nextgens> stable 95 ...
[12:33] <toad_> so's CofE.. hmmm
[12:33] <nextgens> I uploaded 38Mo at 3ko/s
[12:34] <nextgens> it depends on what is 'well' :-)
[12:34] <toad_> woah
[12:34] <nextgens> I found it amazing too
[12:34] <toad_> well he's reporting it taking 3 hours to upload 1kB...
[12:34] <toad_> well no
[12:34] <toad_> to upload his whole site i think
[12:34] <toad_> but taking aaages to upload 1kB
[12:35] <nextgens> An other "new" think : my node is starting his "specialization " !
[12:35] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[12:35] <nextgens> thing
[12:35] <toad_> do you think we could do 0.6-pre1 soon?
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[12:39] <nextgens> toad_: I think you should fix the timeouts issue first (my log file is now 17Mo bigger than an hour ago :-( )... The network work well now but I think it's because everyone is working the same version now ... sorry if your question wasn't adressed to me... ;-)
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[12:41] <nextgens> :s/working/running ! my english is always crapy :'(
[12:44] * jay (jay@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[12:45] <toad_> nextgens: which timeout issue?t
[12:45] <toad_> there are so many... :|
[12:46] <nextgens> toad_: mine ;-)
[12:47] <nextgens> latest : 19:06:13Toohigh probability: 1.001 while kludgingfreenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage@187ac9e (-1 0s, 10011s, 1000 total), init=0.5, index=135java.lang.Exception: debug
[12:52] <jay> / to GetDiskFreeSpace for compatibility with Win95 original versions
[12:52] <toad_> that's not a timeout
[12:52] <jay> heh why is nodeconfig win95 compatible>?
[12:52] <toad_> why shouldn't it be?
[12:52] <jay> does freenet run on 95?
[12:53] <toad_> theoretically
[12:53] <jay> well the code isn't working for some reason
[12:53] <toad_> i don't see any reason why it shouldn't, except that the connection limit is even lower than on win98
[12:53] <jay> i just found the relevant section
[12:54] <jay> weird.. it tries to use a modern disk-free-space function, and then uses the older one if it detects an older OS
[12:55] <jay> i would use the lowest common denominator in both cases
[12:55] <jay> / got run time link to kernel32 (I can't see this ever failing!)
[12:55] <jay> heh.. ironic comment?
[12:55] <nextgens> toad_: sorry : Sep 17, 2004 4:45:35 AM (freenet.node.rt.StandardNodeEstimator, YThread-82, NORMAL): Took 2264949ms to get EarlyTimeout!
[12:55] <nextgens> at freenet.node.rt.StandardNodeEstimator.earlyTimeout(StandardNodeEstimator.java:1165)
[12:55] <nextgens> at freenet.node.rt.NGRouting.earlyTimeout(NGRouting.java:253)
[12:56] <toad_> nextgens: odd
[12:56] <toad_> email me full trace
[12:56] <toad_> and include the problems you get with probability too high
[12:56] <nextgens> toad_ : I'll try
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[13:01] * nextgens (~nextgens@d213-103-226-118.cust.tele2.fr) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
[13:02] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-193-208.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[13:03] <toad_> hmmm
[13:03] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:07] <toad_> hmmm
[13:07] <toad_> this is very strange
[13:07] <toad_> why do requests work, and inserts not work?
[13:07] <toad_> it reaches AWSD, and the SD never comes
[13:08] <toad_> or the next node sends it a QueryRestarted
[13:08] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[13:12] <nextgens> toad_: just a question : what 'often' mean in " TransferInsert source sent bad data! Report if occurs often." ?
[13:12] <toad_> how often do you see it?
[13:12] <nextgens> toad_: my node has 19H of uptime and it occurs 50 times...
[13:13] <toad_> hmmm
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[13:17] <nextgens> toad_: do you have time to logon my box and have a look at my logfile?
[13:19] <toad_> what does it say?
[13:19] <toad_> haven't you just pasted the important bits?
[13:19] <toad_> they don't contain enough for me to fix it
[13:20] <nextgens> the first one :
[13:20] <nextgens> Sep 17, 2004 4:47:08 AM (freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage, YThread-176, ERROR): Too high probability: 1.001 while kludging freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludg ingBinaryRunningAverage@88f1c5 (-1 0s, 1001 1s, 1000 total), init=0.5, index=950 java.lang.Exception: debug
[13:21] <nextgens> i'll try not to be kicked by boot :-(
[13:21] <nextgens> at freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage.kludgeValue(EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage.java:82) at freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage.currentValue(EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage.java:101) at freenet.node.rt.StandardNodeEstimator.longEstimate(StandardNodeEstimator.java:860) at freenet.node.rt.NodeEstimator.longEstimate(NodeEstimator.java:126)
[13:21] <toad_> thank you
[13:21] <nextgens> at freenet.node.rt.NGRoutingTable.route(NGRoutingTable.java:679) at freenet.node.rt.FilterRoutingTable.route(FilterRoutingTable.java:73) at freenet.node.states.request.Pending.receivedRequestInitiator(Pending.java:420) at freenet.node.states.request.DataPending.receivedMessage(DataPending.java:124) at sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor2.invoke(Unknown Source)
[13:21] <toad_> the trace doesn't tell me much unfortunately
[13:22] <nextgens> toad_: don't you need the end?
[13:22] <toad_> no
[13:22] <eMBee> good evening
[13:22] <eMBee> how come i see freenet-latest on the site updated every week, but the build number not change?
[13:23] <toad_> uh, because it didn't change?
[13:24] <toad_> we route to a node
[13:24] <toad_> node sends Accepted
[13:24] <toad_> we send them the data
[13:24] <toad_> we are now in AWSD
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[13:24] <toad_> node routes to another node
[13:25] <toad_> which rejects? gets a DataInsert-never-received? what?
[13:26] <toad_> some sort of timeout?
[13:26] <eMBee> but the file changes, it has a new date, and if i compare it to the old jar there are differences
[13:26] <toad_> seems moderately unlikely...
[13:26] <toad_> eMBee: which files within the jar are different?
[13:27] <eMBee> i have not looked that closely, i just compared the overall jar so far
[13:27] <eMBee> but i'll unpack them and take a look
[13:28] <toad_> the reason insert dying being due to a timeout is unlikely... is that it'd have to be during AWSD
[13:30] <toad_> the file is small enough that we're not waiting for some distant data transfer...
[13:35] <eMBee> ok, you are right, sorry for the noise, the files inside are actually identical, only the jar seems to be repacked every week, that's a bit confusing though
[13:36] <eMBee> and causing unnecessary downloads and updates
[13:38] <nextgens> toad_: could I send you a 1.8Mo file by mail or should I dcc it ?
[13:38] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:38] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[13:40] <toad_> nextgens: sure
[13:43] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Visit http://CyberLore.net for recommendations on the best games, websites and freeware. Don't settle for anything else!")
[13:43] <toad_> hmmm
[13:44] <toad_> I have no idea what is causing the insert problems
[13:44] <toad_> there are a few possibilities
[13:44] <toad_> anyone here got a node?
[13:45] <toad_> how's your cpu usage?
[13:48] <nextgens> toad_: login on mine! ... 0.17 as I stopped everthing : it was filling my filesystem...
[13:48] <nextgens> previously I had 70 running FCP request... and I was at 1.2 for java
[13:48] <toad_> do i have access to your node? I guarantee that if I have to set up my own the bug won't show
[13:49] <toad_> so what's the problem? it uses lots of cpu when you deliberately overload it... this is expected behaviour
[13:49] <nextgens> ssh -p222 hirvox@nextgens.dyndns.org
[13:49] <nextgens> lol
[13:49] <nextgens> yes
[13:50] <toad_> nextgens: I don't have permissions to read freenet.log
[13:50] <nextgens> I'm mailling it to you
[13:50] <toad_> nextgens: i've logged in
[13:50] <toad_> and freenet.log is owned by you
[13:51] <toad_> and it's zero bytes
[13:51] <toad_> and i can't overwrite it
[13:51] <nextgens> yes: to stop it filling my disk ;-)
[13:51] <toad_> and i certainly can't debug it without access to the logfile
[13:51] <toad_> so put it on its own LV, partition or loopback partition
[13:51] <toad_> then it'll only fill up its own disk
[13:51] <toad_> I CANNOT DEBUG IT IF I CANNOT WRITE TO THE LOG
[13:51] <nextgens> that's a solution ...
[13:52] <nextgens> done
[13:52] <toad_> and none of the above things can be done by a non-root user
[13:52] <toad_> that fast? you using lvm?
[13:52] <nextgens> changing owner after having erasing it
[13:53] <toad_> hirvox@Lena:~/freenet$ ./start-freenet.sh
[13:53] <toad_> Detected freenet-ext.jar
[13:53] <toad_> Detected freenet.jar
[13:53] <toad_> Starting Freenet now: Command line: java -Xmx128m freenet.node.Main
[13:53] <toad_> Done
[13:53] <toad_> hirvox@Lena:~/freenet$ nice: java: No such file or directory
[13:53] <toad_> nice :|
[13:53] <toad_> bbiab
[13:53] <jay> ugh my C++ sucks
[13:56] <nextgens> toad_: gnuh? it works!
[13:58] <jay> doesn't look like java is in the PATH
[13:59] <nextgens> it is! probably an SSH related ~/.bashrc problem
[14:00] <jay> well it's not in the PATH when nice gets around to it
[14:00] <nextgens> toad_: here is my JRE : /mnt/disk/freenet/jre1.5.0
[14:01] <nextgens> toad_: here is located my node /mnt/disk/freenet/
[14:02] <nextgens> *sending an e-mail enclosing logs
[14:04] <toad_> hmmm
[14:04] * toad_ thinks he will commit what he has first
[14:04] <jay> toad_: ugh who was the last person to work on nodeconfig.exe ?
[14:05] <toad_> not sure
[14:05] <jay> the CVS HEAD version doesn't compile
[14:06] <nextgens> toad_: check your mails
[14:06] <jay> and there's some back hacks that haven't been completed it seems
[14:06] <jay> back=bad
[14:06] <jay> if i can fix it i will
[14:07] <nextgens> will you increase LastGoodBuild?
[14:07] <toad_> nextgens: to what, and why?
[14:09] <nextgens> toad_: I started suddently to get Timeouts and Kluging errors ... I think if you could fix it it'll be great : I'm supposing it could happen to everone... that's all
[14:09] <toad_> what does that have to do with lastGoodBuild?
[14:10] <nextgens> My node started to work differently after I got those errors ...
[14:10] <toad_> everyone has always gotten timeouts
[14:10] <toad_> for as long as we have logged them
[14:10] <toad_> which is a loooong time
[14:11] <toad_> kludging is a different story
[14:11] <nextgens> Now It's down ... I can't show you : I first had kluging errors at 4AM ... I wasn't on my computer ;-) the box wasn't overloaded ...
[14:12] <toad_> and?
[14:12] <nextgens> and it started not to reject incoming querys
[14:12] <nextgens> :
[14:12] <toad_> not to?
[14:12] <toad_> what do you mean?
[14:12] <toad_> it's not supposed to reject incoming queries
[14:12] <toad_> anyway lets keep it down until I have uploaded my new jar
[14:12] <toad_> which should help to debug it
[14:13] <nextgens> according to stats I saw previously : during 15 mins it didn't reject ONE query ... and that's unusual ...
[14:13] <toad_> it is?
[14:13] <nextgens> for my always overloaded box (CPU and BP) ;-)
[14:13] <toad_> it shouldn't be
[14:14] <toad_> BP?
[14:14] <toad_> if rate limiting is working, then it shouldn't reject queries
[14:14] <nextgens> I dunno how to say it in English sorry : yes uploading bandwidth
[14:15] <nextgens> but it usualy do :-(
[14:15] <toad_> did the number of incoming queries change?
[14:15] <nextgens> no
[14:16] <nextgens> my network connexion was working if it's what you are asking for ...
[14:16] <toad_> no
[14:16] <toad_> did the number of incoming queries change?
[14:16] <nextgens> It did update my dnsname 2 hours later
[14:16] <toad_> localQueryTraffic
[14:17] <toad_> the incoming qph
[14:17] <nextgens> I dunno
[14:17] <nextgens> I don't see why it would have do so :-?
[14:18] <nextgens> :s/do/sone
[14:18] <toad_> i don't see why it would have rejected less queries
[14:19] <toad_> but the fact that you know it rejected less queries means you must have seen the number of queries incoming somewhere
[14:20] <nextgens> me too but it DID ! 8-) yes but I didn't remember of it : it always stays approximatly the same
[14:20] <nextgens> so :I don't look at it : and I didn't
[14:21] * Sugardude (~Sugadude@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to) has joined #freenet
[14:24] * kers (~kers@2.ppp144.rsd.worldonline.se) has joined #freenet
[14:25] <nextgens> toad_: I get http://localhost:8888/servlet/nodeinfo/networking/ocm from my proxy : today 19:59:07 I had Connections?open?(Inbound/Outbound/Limit)84?(72/12/200)Transfers?active?(Transmitting/Receiving)69?(35/34)Data waiting to be transferred1,628?BytesTotal amount of data transferred1,206?MiB
[14:26] <toad_> that's a lot of transfers
[14:27] <nextgens> my node was overloaded but NEVER worked as well : the only thing is that it was filling up my hard drive :-(
[14:30] <toad_> what branch are you on?
[14:30] <toad_> stable or unstable?
[14:30] <nextgens> stable
[14:30] <toad_> ok
[14:30] <toad_> well I'll just merge something up including the changes...
[14:31] <toad_> well actually the current local jar may be enough... checking...
[14:33] <KenMan> how goes simulation efforts ?
[14:34] <toad_> hi KenMan
[14:34] <toad_> long time no see!
[14:34] <KenMan> howdy, long time no here
[14:34] <toad_> so long, in fact, that i suspect you're actually sanity pretending to be KenMan
[14:34] <toad_> :)
[14:34] * KenMan is busted
[14:35] * Sugadude (fuckyou@dsl027-178-156.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[14:35] <toad_> lol
[14:36] <toad_> it goes okay, some interesting graphs
[14:36] <toad_> but so far all on 100 node fully connected virtual network
[14:36] <toad_> which is pretty lame
[14:36] <toad_> i'm going to do a proper network soon
[14:37] <KenMan> good, so it is producing usable data ?
[14:37] <toad_> but at the moment i'm debugging inserts and kludging errors and things
[14:37] <toad_> definitely
[14:39] <nextgens> toad_: I managed to get http://localhost:8888/servlet/nodestatus/ from my proxy does it contains localQueryTraffic? probably not : just an estimator :-( : Load due to expected inbound transfers: 7.4% because:7250.1182735066095 req/hr * 0.008349441408000006 (pTransfer) * 243612.0bytes = 14746915 bytes/hr expected from current requests, butmaxInputBytes/minute = 3000000 (set input limit) * 60 * 1.1 = 198000000bytes/hr target
[14:40] <toad_> nextgens: huh?
[14:40] <toad_> nextgens: i'm trying to upload a jar to your node...
[14:41] <nextgens> toad_: ok it was today 19:59:07...
[14:42] * kers (~kers@2.ppp144.rsd.worldonline.se) Quit ("Leaving")
[14:42] <toad_> nextgens: ok i've uploaded the jar
[14:43] <toad_> i've started the node...
[14:43] <toad_> KenMan: have a look at some of the early results on the urls posted on tech
[14:43] <toad_> Sep 17, 2004 9:03:00 PM (freenet.node.Node, main, NORMAL): starting ListenSelector..
[14:44] <toad_> node started
[14:44] <toad_> none of the described errors yet...
[14:45] * toad_ plays with your node a bit...
[14:46] * caddy (caddy@pD952A5D8.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #freenet
[14:46] * caddy (caddy@pD952A5D8.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[14:47] <toad_> nextgens: what did you do last time that caused the node to do bad things?
[14:48] * cbreak (~cbreak@dhcp-32-094.via-eth.ch) has joined #freenet
[14:48] <nextgens> toad_: nothing special : I just changed from Yaffi to Fuquid to deal with FCP
[14:49] <toad_> well so far nothing really abnorma
[14:49] <toad_> l
[14:49] <toad_> i'm not using FCP though...
[14:49] <toad_> what's yaffi?
[14:49] <cbreak> yet an other freenet file inserter? :)
[14:49] <nextgens> toad_: 70 threads downloading ... 10 uploading
[14:50] <nextgens> :s/yaffi/yafi
[14:50] <toad_> good
[14:50] <nextgens> sorry
[14:50] <toad_> nextgens: is it what he said?
[14:51] <toad_> if i accidentally run into any illegal files being down/uploaded while inspecting your logs, i'll be in a very messy position.. just so you know...
[14:52] <nextgens> cbreak: yafi is "Yet Another Freenet Interface" written by Tailchaser
[14:52] <nextgens> toad_ : I know
[14:52] <nextgens> toad_ : Nothing is illegal on my box ... check ;-)
[14:54] <toad_> nextgens: so far, so good... no especially interesting messages so far...
[14:54] <toad_> (and if there are we may have to restart with more logging, but we'll see... :|)
[14:55] <toad_> brb
[14:55] <nextgens> toad_: do you want me to start Fuquid and request things? it'll overload my node...
[14:56] <nextgens> :s/Fuquid/Fuqid
[14:57] <nextgens> *cleaning up my hd since toad is away :lol: ;-)
[14:58] <toad_> Sep 17, 2004 9:16:01 PM (freenet.client.InternalClient$InternalFeedbackToken$InternalDataChunkOutputStream, YThread-93, ERROR): Caught java.io.IOException: Attempt to use a released TempFileBucket: /mnt/disk/freenet/store/temp/tbf_5cc274ff closing freenet.crypt.DecipherOutputStream@3c8749 in freenet.client.InternalClient$InternalFeedbackToken$InternalDataChunkOutputStream@1d5cac4
[14:58] <toad_> hmmm
[14:58] <toad_> nextgens: yes
[14:59] <nextgens> *starting Fuqid
[15:00] <nextgens> *70 threads downloading 'legal' things are starting
[15:04] <cbreak> 70 threads seem a bit high.
[15:04] <toad_> other people use over 200
[15:04] <toad_> we will need to do something about local requests eventually
[15:05] <toad_> overloading your node gives a lot of your anonymity away
[15:05] <toad_> well, it's still just getting the connection timeouts
[15:06] <nextgens> toad_: never seen before : Received:A fatal exception occured while processing: java.io.IOException:Attempt to use a released TempFileBucket:/mnt/disk/freenet/store/temp/tbf_5cc274ff
[15:06] <toad_> yeah
[15:06] <KenMan> does anyone know if Gmane catches all the posts ? It shows threads that I can't seem to follow... :(
[15:07] <nextgens> toad_: the file doesn't exist
[15:07] <toad_> it looks suspiciously as if that's a new bug in this build...
[15:07] <cbreak> will 60232 be published as snapshot?
[15:08] <toad_> KenMan: i can send you my mailboxes if you like, but they are pretty big...
[15:08] <toad_> cbreak: it will now...
[15:08] <KenMan> that's okay... i'm just looking for the links you referred to earlier.
[15:09] <toad_> KenMan: email address? i'll send you the announce message for the graphs anyway..
[15:09] <toad_> although i recommend you read some of the tech archives at least...
[15:10] <toad_> unknown control byte, DNV
[15:10] <KenMan> I'm looking through tech now... only about 20 posts on Gmane for september...
[15:10] <toad_> unrecognized trailer ID
[15:10] <toad_> hmmm
[15:11] <toad_> bbiab
[15:13] <nextgens> toad_: this one is new too : Sep 17, 2004 9:02:53 PM (freenet.node.rt.NGRoutingTable, main, ERROR): Caught java.io.IOException: Value out of range: 4500000.0 deserializing a NodeEstimator for DataObjectRoutingMemory:tcp/139.30.202.21:7498, sessions=1, presentations=3, ID=DSA(8938 65e9 abde
[15:13] <nextgens> java.io.IOException: Value out of range: 4500000.0
[15:14] <nextgens> toad_: now : TransferInsert source sent bad data! Report if occurs often.
[15:15] <nextgens> toad_: just after DNV
[15:17] * KenMan concludes that Gmane is a lossy/partial archive :(
[15:19] <toad_> hmmm
[15:19] <toad_> KenMan: interesting stats from queueing
[15:20] <toad_> 95%+, often 99%+, of queued requests on my node, get sent
[15:20] <toad_> inserts are having fairly big and largely inexplicable problems though
[15:20] <toad_> despite requests working reasonably well for once
[15:21] <toad_> this may be due to the timeouts being wrong, which i think i just fixed...
[15:21] <toad_> nextgens: i see none of the promised error messages...
[15:22] <toad_> maybe this is a good thing, maybe the bug is fixed somehow...
[15:22] <nextgens> toad_: 21:38:31Got a TWCM ... maybe it's just because u are here ;-)
[15:23] <toad_> :)
[15:23] <toad_> more likely something to do with the new jar...
[15:24] * toad_ reverts his stable, going to re-merge, and perhaps put a new stable build out
[15:34] <vsalento> what new features can be expected from the new stable build? are all those tested in unstable already?
[15:39] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-224-083.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[15:40] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-082-082-224-083.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[15:40] <toad_> vsalento: mostly bugfixes
[15:43] <nextgens> toad_:It doesn't seem to suck ... what's about the MRI problem? do you know? it appears a lot of time
[15:44] <toad_> nextgens: which one?
[15:44] <nextgens> Invalid MRI NaN from MRIPacketMessage: NaN for freenet.PeerHandler
[15:44] <toad_> yeah..
[15:44] <toad_> i'm not sure whether current builds produce that...
[15:44] <toad_> what was the build number of the node that sent it?
[15:44] <toad_> current builds SHOULDN'T send NaN's
[15:45] <nextgens> 5093
[15:45] <nextgens> you're right
[15:46] <nextgens> but I still don't know : what are NaN ?
[15:46] <toad_> i don't think i should merge the timeout changes yet...
[15:46] <toad_> maybe test them on unstable a bit first?
[15:46] <toad_> or maybe not.. hrrm
[15:46] <toad_> nextgens: NaN is Not A Number
[15:46] <toad_> we send MRIs as floating point
[15:47] <toad_> NaN is what you get when you divide 0 by 0
[15:47] <nextgens> ok
[15:49] <cbreak> NaN is specified as a maximal exponent and a mantisa != 0 in both 32bit and 64bit IEEE FPN :)
[15:49] <toad_> hmm odd
[15:49] <jay> x/0 = NaN
[15:50] <toad_> i would've thought it'd have a zero mantissa
[15:50] <toad_> jay: no, 1/0 is Infinity isn't it?
[15:50] <toad_> +Infinity?
[15:50] <cbreak> that are +- infinities
[15:50] <jay> maybe
[15:50] <jay> now im not sure
[15:50] <cbreak> at least that's how its in the spec
[15:50] <jay> im fixing nodeconfig
[15:51] <toad_> hmmm
[15:51] * toad_ thinks SOMETHING should be merged...
[15:51] <toad_> but what? we have tons of stuff...
[15:52] <toad_> hmmm
[15:52] <toad_> somehow the simulation is starving the node's queue run thread
[15:52] <toad_> despite being more niced than the node!
[15:53] <toad_> i think...
[15:56] * jay (jay@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:04] <toad_> hmmm
[16:04] <toad_> should I merge the new timeouts?
[16:04] <toad_> I doubt they'll be any worse than the old ones...
[16:04] <toad_> how cautious should i be about such things?
[16:10] <FallingBuzzard> Increasing timeouts shouldn't hurt stable. Decreasing them might though.
[16:10] <toad_> i think they're all increases...
[16:11] * goatee__ (~goatee@ip216-239-87-103.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[16:11] <cbreak> what is unstable good for if not having the new cool features before everyone else? :)
[16:13] <nextgens> toad_: I got NaNs from a 5095 build :-?
[16:13] <FallingBuzzard> I see no reason to rush them into Stable. It has been sorta working for a while now. Better to test more than to lose credibility by breaking the network.
[16:14] <FallingBuzzard> It won't bother anyone on stable if you break unstable. ;)
[16:14] <nextgens> toad_: line 1662
[16:15] <nextgens> neither do I ;-)
[16:15] <toad_> nextgens: ouch
[16:16] <toad_> FallingBuzzard: yes but nobody uses unstable
[16:16] <toad_> nextgens: hrrm, i don't see how that is possible...
[16:16] * cbreak does
[16:16] <toad_> i'm sure i explicitly check for it..
[16:17] <FallingBuzzard> I guess it comes down to how confident you are in your changes. If you break my node. I will just wait until you release a fix and then upgrade.
[16:18] <nextgens> *seeing that on my node, all is still possible even if Toad is there ;-)
[16:18] <toad_> well the impact of the changes probably won't be felt unless they're widespread...
[16:18] * goatee_ (~goatee@ip216-239-82-24.vif.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[16:19] <toad_> hmmm
[16:19] <toad_> i'm sure i added checks... hmmm
[16:19] <toad_> apparently not
[16:20] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
[16:20] <toad_> ah i did
[16:21] <toad_> that's ok then..
[16:21] <toad_> so what is causing these messages on your node?
[16:21] <vsalento> toad_: what kind of timeout changes did you make?
[16:21] <toad_> mostly i made them longer :)
[16:21] <toad_> to take into account queueing
[16:22] <vsalento> how much longer?
[16:22] <nextgens> toad_: lol should I make stats about them? doing a grep on my old log file?
[16:22] <toad_> approximately the queueing time per hop
[16:22] <toad_> the maximum queueing time per hop
[16:23] <toad_> so 1MB inserts have up to 460s (HTL 20, plus the 3 extra hops) extra on their timeouts.. but small files have a lot less
[16:23] <toad_> nextgens: yes
[16:24] <vsalento> alright... hopefully my insertion tests will then get better results
[16:26] <toad_> vsalento: do you want to test the jar?
[16:26] <toad_> I can send you the jar, regardless of whether I actually commit the stuff to stable
[16:28] * nextgens is now known as nextgens|away
[16:31] <vsalento> toad_: it doesn't much help since the changes need to be present on other nodes for the effect to be visible. I have already modified my own node to not timeout so easily.
[16:32] <toad_> vsalento: yup, that's half the problem
[16:32] <toad_> however, i think there may be other problems messing inserts up
[16:33] <toad_> i just have little idea what they are, and it's not for lack of trying..
[16:34] <vsalento> for one thing I think that if the connection is closed due timeout the situation isn't handled gracefully (exception handling). However I haven't debugged that much yet.
[16:35] <toad_> yeah, i know
[16:35] <toad_> i'm pretty sure there are still issues
[16:35] <toad_> but i think the changes are an improvement
[16:35] <toad_> the main thing is simply what is causing inserts to suck so much?
[16:35] <hobx> did somebody say my name?
[16:37] <toad_> i started an insert, and it eventually (after a VERY long time) RNFd on one node, QR: looped on another 3 (the first one only tried 4, which is interesting), and so on..
[16:37] <toad_> hobx_: not recently
[16:37] <hobx> oki
[16:37] <hobx> the tab was blue
[16:38] <toad_> ah, so hobx uses ksirc too...
[16:38] <hobx> no
[16:38] <hobx> xchat
[16:39] <toad_> must just be a convention then
[16:39] <hobx> I think it was blue because work me was talking earlier though.
[16:39] <hobx> It doesn't hold in chatzilla annoyingly.
[16:43] * nextgens|away is now known as nextgens
[16:46] <toad_> java.lang.NullPointerException
[16:46] <toad_> at freenet.node.http.infolets.HTMLTransferProgressIcon.render(HTMLTransf
[16:46] <toad_> erProgressIcon.java:68)
[16:46] <toad_> at freenet.client.inFlightRequestTrackingAutoRequester$EventSequence$Oth
[16:46] <toad_> erEvent.toHTML(inFlightRequestTrackingAutoRequester.java:275)
[16:46] <toad_> grrrrrrrrrrrr
[16:47] * FallingBuzzard (~srademach@207.152.112.129) has left #freenet
[16:49] <toad_> bbl
[16:50] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit ("Nog steeds hetzelfde, steeds hetzelfde.")
[16:57] <nextgens> toad_: bad news ! 11042 NaNs from 5095 in my previous log
[16:57] <Zorix> yea i get NaNs too whatever that is
[16:59] <nextgens> good news: only from 5095 ...
[16:59] <cbreak> I get them to from an 60220 Node.
[16:59] <nextgens> but still ; some people updated from 5089 to 5095 directly :-(...
[17:00] <cbreak> (Increasing the lgb to something more recent may be a good idea :)
[17:14] <nextgens> good news: I only got them from 4 IPs ;-)
[17:15] <nextgens> cbreak: could you check if it's from the same IPs?
[17:16] <nextgens> cdbreak : their MD5 is d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e .
[17:17] <nextgens> nope
[17:18] <nextgens> cdbreak : 29f566dfb8be531620583f8c1f856c30 c3e051d06e31bb7bdb9f89f9b13dda83 6766d15307e7702a7514079f41142b32 35dd38d86decd7126b588c76dc2a6445
[17:19] <cbreak> all from one ip
[17:21] <cbreak> its ip:port md5 is 9e401b2324ba7ba3b00294c743682f94, but with a simple dictionary attack you should be able to reverse the hash :)
[17:21] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[17:22] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[17:27] <nextgens> with rainbow tables it's even easier ;-)
[17:28] <cbreak> rainbow table?
[17:28] <cbreak> there are less than 1000 nodes on unstable, so 1000 possible hashes. (All numbers are purely asumed)
[17:32] <nextgens> http://passcracking.com/
[17:35] <nextgens> not the same ...
[17:35] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[17:36] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[17:37] <nextgens> cbreak: so, there are crappy nodes on Stable and only one on unstable ...
[17:37] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-193-208.cust.tele2.fr) Quit ("bye all. It's late here ...")
[17:38] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-193-208.cust.tele2.fr) has joined #freenet
[17:42] * Sugardude (~Sugadude@pakastelohi.cypherpunks.to) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[17:44] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[17:46] * nextgens (~nextgens@d80-170-193-208.cust.tele2.fr) has left #freenet
[17:51] <toad_> <nextgens> good news: only from 5095 ...
[17:51] <toad_> eh?
[17:52] <toad_> Now it is possible to download the Rainbowcrack tables. The price is 50$. If you are interested please send e-mail to info[at]passcracking.com.
[17:52] <toad_> Before ordering test your download speed. Download this sample file to test your speed from our servers. Order the tables only if your download speed is acceptable for downloading ~28.3 Gb! (at least 30kb/s - it will take 11.5 days for download to complete)
[17:52] <toad_> woah
[17:52] <cbreak> I wonder if calculating them yourself is faster...
[17:53] * toad_ wonders when it will be feasible to get that from freenet
[17:53] * d-ArkAngel fears inserting a 28.3Gb file
[17:53] <cbreak> should be possible today.
[17:53] <toad_> cbreak: you think so?
[17:54] <cbreak> yes. I could sucessfully download files in the range up to 1 GB.
[17:54] * Sugadude (~Sugadude@badfish.securityminded.net) has joined #freenet
[17:55] <cbreak> And if one would insert a 1 GB Splitfile cluster each month, you should be finished after a little more than two years.
[17:55] <toad_> lol
[17:55] <d-ArkAngel> lol
[17:55] <toad_> surely you can insert a 1GB splitfile even now in a few days?
[17:55] <Zorix> i never tried
[17:55] <toad_> i heard somebody earlier saying he'd inserted a 38MB splitfile at 3kB/sec
[17:56] <cbreak> not with the freenet web interface.
[17:56] <d-ArkAngel> yeah, and cos it's no use without the whole thing no one will have requested block 2 and it's droped off the network :-)
[17:56] <toad_> cbreak: huh?
[17:57] <cbreak> my browser tries to load a file into ram to post it over http to fproxy. And with freenet already taking up most of my memory, that is not good for the systems responsiveness.
[17:58] <Zorix> yea freenet kinda eats the ram
[17:58] <cbreak> (not for files as large as about 512 mb)
[17:58] <Zorix> 170mb ram freenet uses from me now
[17:59] <d-ArkAngel> it'll probably take you less than 2 years tho.... you'll probably have upgraded your ram by then :-)
[17:59] <toad_> Those ready to work rainbow tables can be of great value. For the small scale rainbow tables like the ones introduced in the tutorial, you can generate them by yourself. But it always take seveal months or years to generate large scale tables.
[17:59] <toad_> Instead of long time waiting, you can now purchase the ready to work rainbow tables and benefit from them immediately:
[17:59] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) Quit ("Client exiting")
[17:59] <toad_> cbreak: what's the problem with big files on the web interface?
[18:01] <cbreak> well, maybe its a browser problem, but it seems the files have to be sent to fproxy. To do that, the browser seems to load the file into memory. And I don't have enough spare memory left.
[18:01] <toad_> ah
[18:01] <toad_> eeeek
[18:01] <toad_> is that because it copies it to /tmp, which is in tmpfs?
[18:02] <cbreak> no, my /tmp is on the same partition as the swap files and the rest of the system. freenets tmp is on an own virtual fs with the rest of freenet and its ds.
[18:02] * Overand (common@69.0.81.177.adsl.snet.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:02] * Overand (common@69.0.81.177.adsl.snet.net) has joined #freenet
[18:03] <toad_> woah
[18:03] <toad_> cbreak: virtual fs?
[18:03] <d-ArkAngel> just a quick question about getting my first node started. I've had it up for 24 hours or so now. Is the best idea to keep trying freenet sites with it? or will it learn it's way arround the network if I just leave it all alone for long enough?
[18:03] <toad_> you have the entire node in RAM?!
[18:04] <toad_> d-ArkAngel: it should work if you leave it alone (you have incoming conns, right?)
[18:04] <toad_> another popular bootstrap tactic is Frost
[18:04] <cbreak> no, its more like a container file. an encrypted disk image. Linux may be able to do that with loopback files.
[18:04] <toad_> bbl, tiredish, i think i could work now, but i do need to get up early tomorrow...
[18:04] <toad_> cbreak: yes, it can
[18:04] <toad_> cbreak: however, if your swap isn't encrypted, it's possible to leak info from there
[18:05] <cbreak> yes, indeed.
[18:05] <toad_> bbl
[18:05] <cbreak> that was and still is a major security hole :(
[18:06] <d-ArkAngel> connections : 73 (47/26/200)
[18:06] * pupok_ (~r00t@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:06] <d-ArkAngel> so yeah, looks like I've got a fair few
[18:06] * pupok_ (~r00t@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[18:14] * interrupt (~interrupt@64.122.23.214) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.64g [Mozilla rv:1.7/20040803]")
[18:21] <Zorix> toad_ new version soon?
[18:21] * sanity (~ian@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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[18:29] * pupok_ (~r00t@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[18:31] * TLF (~francisco@131.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[18:40] * TLF (~francisco@131.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("Adi?s a todos y a todas, y que les vaya bien. || http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc")
[18:57] * d-ArkAngel (~robert@cpc2-midd2-5-0-cust16.midd.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.10")
[19:00] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[19:03] <toad_> Zorix: probably not
[19:04] <toad_> --- .webcheck/content/19b0b149669e1bd541dc2edcc2a4cd54.old.filtered
[19:04] <toad_> +2004-09-18 00:10:41.000000000 +0100
[19:04] <toad_> +++ .webcheck/content/19b0b149669e1bd541dc2edcc2a4cd54.filtered 2004-09-18
[19:04] <toad_> +00:10:41.000000000 +0100
[19:04] <toad_> @@ -150,7 +150,7 @@
[19:04] <toad_> <h3>
[19:04] <toad_> Financial Status</h3>
[19:04] <toad_> The project's current Paypal balance is <b>
[19:04] <toad_> -$324.73</b>
[19:04] <toad_> +$362.31</b>
[19:04] <toad_> . The project requires approximately $2,000 per month to pay foritsfull time
[19:04] <toad_> +developer, Matthew Toseland. If you would like to helpsupport the Freenet
[19:04] <toad_> +Project, you can make a convenient donation throughour <a
[19:04] <toad_> +href="/index.php?page=donate">
[19:04] <toad_> donations page</a>
[19:04] <toad_> .<h3>
[19:05] <toad_> yay, $40 today... /me notes that employing him for a full day costs ~ $108.. :)
[19:10] <mazzanet> is that a dynamic balance?
[19:11] <mazzanet> -a -balance
[19:14] <KenMan> so, how long must you go without pay before you quit ? a few hours ? a few days ?
[19:14] * cbreak (~cbreak@dhcp-32-094.via-eth.ch) Quit ("leaving")
[19:15] <Zorix> wow
[19:16] <Zorix> my job i never get more than $80
[19:16] <Zorix> per day
[19:17] <Zorix> most days its between $20-$50 a day
[19:17] <KenMan> here in US, we have this notion that people must be paid for every day's work, on a regular schedule. In Russia, some people haven't been payed in several years, yet they continue to report to their jobs...
[19:18] <KenMan> heh, 'payed' :)
[19:18] <Zorix> wtf
[19:19] <toad_> Zorix: what are you doing?
[19:19] <KenMan> perhaps some Russian employers include a daily supply of vodka in the perks/benefits package.
[19:19] <toad_> and in what country? spain? lithuania?
[19:19] <Zorix> i work for an IT department
[19:19] <Zorix> usa
[19:19] <toad_> woah
[19:19] <Zorix> i work at a college but i dont work for the college
[19:19] <Zorix> i work for sungard data systems
[19:20] <toad_> I can't really imagine how anyone could live on what I earn (~ $20K), if living on their own - let alone with kids - but i know people do...
[19:20] <Zorix> im outsourced
[19:20] <KenMan> well, not everyone is compensated at the same rate. There are a lot of factors that go into determining someone's pay rate
[19:20] <Zorix> i make less than $12000 a year
[19:21] <toad_> hmm $26K actually at current exchange rates
[19:21] * pupok_ (~r00t@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:21] <toad_> Zorix: how do you live on that?
[19:21] <Zorix> i dont.. i cant
[19:21] <Zorix> im a student livng at home
[19:21] <toad_> that's ?6,593..
[19:21] * KenMan suggests he try dealing drugs as a sideline
[19:21] <Zorix> i have class and work
[19:21] <toad_> there is NO WAY you can live on that
[19:21] * pupok_ (~r00t@81-178-112-130.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[19:21] <Zorix> i cant
[19:21] <Zorix> i live at my parents home
[19:21] <toad_> well, technically, I don't either - I live with my parents
[19:21] <KenMan> no, dealing drugs is probably a bad idea
[19:22] <toad_> okay so that's part time?
[19:22] <Zorix> i cant live with my parents much longer im sick of it
[19:22] <Zorix> yea im part time
[19:22] <Zorix> $10/hr
[19:22] <toad_> you make $12K part time?
[19:22] <Zorix> yes
[19:22] <Zorix> less than 30 hours a week
[19:22] <toad_> Zorix: $10/hr for IT is ummm interesting
[19:22] <Zorix> more like 24 hours a week now that class is started
[19:22] <toad_> my brother makes more than that in retail
[19:22] <Zorix> good/bad?
[19:22] <Zorix> lol
[19:22] <toad_> and he's only just joined them too
[19:22] <Zorix> well i dont like dealing with the general public
[19:23] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) has joined #FreeNet
[19:23] <toad_> this is his first job, he's been doing it for a matter of months
[19:23] <Zorix> actually i used to work for the college i was a student assistant
[19:23] <toad_> and he probably makes more than you do
[19:23] <Zorix> and i was doing the same thing im doing now
[19:23] <Zorix> for $6.50/hr
[19:23] <Zorix> then i got hired on permenant staff and got a raise to 10
[19:23] <KenMan> the best part for US employers is that they don't have to provide any benefits for workers who spend less than 40 hours / week working.
[19:23] <toad_> in a little while he'll be on i think ~~ $13/hr
[19:23] <Zorix> but my employer does
[19:23] <toad_> KenMan: ;)
[19:23] <Zorix> i get offered benefits
[19:23] <Zorix> paid holidays
[19:23] <Zorix> paid leave
[19:23] <toad_> KenMan: neither do UK ones
[19:24] <toad_> Zorix: nice, I'm a contractor :)
[19:24] <Zorix> yea
[19:24] <Zorix> i need to live on my own
[19:24] <toad_> but at least I don't need to be physically present... don't need to get a car, and I can make whatever hours (which is as much of a burden as a blessing)
[19:24] <Zorix> its very bad living at parents
[19:24] <toad_> Zorix: why?
[19:24] <toad_> Zorix: you get on that badly?
[19:24] <Zorix> because its degrading me mentally heh
[19:24] * toad_ gets on very well with his parents
[19:24] * KenMan remembers a time (1988) when many people left high school to go work for $5/hour for their future...
[19:25] <toad_> KenMan: for how many hours per week? and property/rent was cheaper, right?
[19:25] <Zorix> well see at work i get respect and treated very well.. then i get home and i get treated like a dumbshit that knows nothing and stuff
[19:25] <toad_> not to mention inflation of what, 100%, over that period?
[19:25] <KenMan> lets go look up US minimum wage rate... (I guess $5.75/hr)
[19:25] <Zorix> 5.25 in florida
[19:26] <toad_> I think UK min wage is ?4.20 ~= $7.60
[19:26] <toad_> anyway I've come to the conclusion that the US is a third world country ;)
[19:26] <Zorix> min wage adds to inflation
[19:26] <Zorix> labor costs are passed on to the consumer in the end
[19:26] <toad_> mum had a friend whose insurance lapsed..
[19:26] <toad_> Zorix: so what?
[19:27] <Zorix> so things get expensive
[19:27] <toad_> she had major arthritis, then she got really ill... thankfully she managed to get insurance again at that point, something to do with husband(s)
[19:27] <toad_> Zorix: indeed.. but that doesn't mean min wage is bad
[19:27] <toad_> not on its own
[19:27] <toad_> but that debate is WAY off topic
[19:28] <KenMan> some voters (who typically make much more than min wage) feel that the minimum wage should be substantially increased, once they discover what it is. I guess they figure it could all be taken out of the President's whopping salary. Or the congresspeople's.
[19:28] <Zorix> unskilled labor shouldnt be artificially boosted..
[19:28] <Zorix> skilled labor is different
[19:28] <toad_> KenMan: :)
[19:28] <toad_> Zorix: that's because you're skilled labour ;)
[19:28] <Zorix> ive always been skilled labor.. i never lowered myself
[19:29] * toad_ used to be of the opinion that we live in a theocracy of the dollar.. but then there are odd things that you just can't explain on that model
[19:29] <KenMan> indeed
[19:29] <toad_> I suppose any mental model you come up with is a limited model...
[19:30] <toad_> there are a hundred ways of looking at it, that are all right to some degree, and all catastrophically wrong in some other degree
[19:30] <KenMan> toad - is it true that generally, people below 40 years of age cannot afford to own a house in your country ?
[19:30] <toad_> KenMan: more like 30 i think at the moment
[19:30] <toad_> maybe not for much longer
[19:30] <toad_> mid 30s i think is the current age of economic maturity
[19:30] <Redb3ard> can anyone afford to own a house in any country?
[19:30] <toad_> for the middle class
[19:30] <toad_> underclass move out as soon as they get pregnant
[19:30] <KenMan> you mean, they can't just build cheap houses and cheap neighborhoods ?
[19:30] <toad_> :)
[19:31] <Zorix> slums?
[19:31] <toad_> KenMan: fortunately shanty towns are rare in the UK, although I've heard things about europe
[19:31] <KenMan> yeah, slums
[19:31] <Redb3ard> yeh, what about those brazillian-style shantytowns outside of london that i hear about?
[19:31] <toad_> I don't know, if you have any info send me
[19:31] <toad_> i think it comes from having more or less adequate government benefits
[19:32] <toad_> and the people who don't have houses can't afford to build them
[19:32] <Redb3ard> actually, the reason for them being non-existent is that snooty english lords dont like the idea of the underclass dirtying up their country
[19:32] <toad_> most of them are addicted to some substance or other
[19:32] <toad_> Redb3ard: so how come it happens on the continent?
[19:32] <toad_> spain etc are more tolerant of such things?
[19:32] <KenMan> i mean, if someone in Africa can afford a few stalks of bamboo, they can build their own home. The government won't come in and condemn their property as unsafe / unsanitary...
[19:32] <Redb3ard> im kidding?
[19:32] <toad_> KenMan: :)
[19:33] <KenMan> Why can't the more developed countries allow sanity modular homes to be sold, ones that a package delivery company could ship to them ? oh yea, they don't have an address. That's right.
[19:33] <toad_> KenMan: well, we have a class system: homeless. benefits. the supposedly nonexistant lower/menial classes. the lower middle class (90% of the population). the middle middle class (where people think 90% of the population is). etc.
[19:34] <toad_> LOL KenMan
[19:34] <Redb3ard> i keep hoping you guys will do a project mayhem on the bank of england
[19:34] <toad_> people in my family have known people reasonably closely from homeless right up to upper class
[19:34] <KenMan> sweden appears to be having trouble coming to terms with the concept that different people with differing skills should be paid differently.
[19:35] <KenMan> or maybe just that different people have differing levels of talent
[19:35] <Redb3ard> but at least you have gun control, and zero crime because of it
[19:35] <toad_> ROFL Redb3ard
[19:35] <toad_> yeah :)
[19:35] <toad_> we have almost as many prisons as you do..
[19:35] <KenMan> guns can be good, too.
[19:35] <toad_> and switzerland has less crime despite having more guns iirc
[19:35] <Redb3ard> those damn chinese are going down
[19:35] <Redb3ard> we still have them beat percentagewise
[19:35] <Redb3ard> and 1 billion or not, we're going to incarcerate more
[19:36] * toad_ means per-capita for prisons, you understand
[19:36] <KenMan> putting people in prison provides jobs !!
[19:36] <toad_> LOL
[19:36] <toad_> yeah, as does destroying public transport
[19:36] <Redb3ard> yes
[19:36] <KenMan> at least we all agree
[19:36] <Redb3ard> and if we become enlightened enough to allow prisoners to be sold as slaves...
[19:36] <toad_> thus the indirect job creation schemes in the US of destroying public transport, for instance
[19:37] <toad_> Redb3ard: not economically viable outside the sex trade
[19:37] <Redb3ard> then corporate america can finally satisfy its need for free labor!
[19:37] <toad_> slaves cost money too
[19:37] <Redb3ard> not really
[19:37] <Redb3ard> you just dont feed them
[19:37] <toad_> far better to enslave them economically
[19:37] <Redb3ard> when they drop dead of starvation, buy another
[19:37] <toad_> cheaper, and better PR too
[19:37] <KenMan> what, they die ?? I want the extended warrantee
[19:37] <toad_> lol
[19:37] <Redb3ard> im sure it could be spun as "being hard on crime"
[19:38] <toad_> slaves are just like any other machine - they have upkeep cost
[19:39] <Redb3ard> ok
[19:39] <Redb3ard> if gun bans dont stop crime
[19:39] <Redb3ard> or even put a huge dent in it
[19:39] <Redb3ard> whats the justification over there?
[19:39] <toad_> over where?
[19:39] <Redb3ard> UK
[19:39] <KenMan> over here, the justification is that they are fun...
[19:39] <Redb3ard> i mean, we're both from oceania
[19:40] <toad_> well the argument goes, wherever you are: a) accidents. kids get hold of gun, ... bang. b) murder. much higher murder in areas with lots of guns, although overall crime isn't so bad
[19:41] <toad_> overall crime may actually go down..
[19:41] <KenMan> a) is darwinism in action, perhaps.
[19:41] <KenMan> actually, that sounds a little harsh.
[19:41] <toad_> perhaps but people care about these things
[19:41] <toad_> people are stupid. kids are really stupid. get used to it..
[19:41] <KenMan> i did. believe me, growing up, I DID.
[19:42] <toad_> so we have the balance between "since people are stupid, get Somebody Else to do everything for them, so they won't hurt themselves" vs "Somebody Else is an asshole"
[19:42] <toad_> "Somebody Else is an asshole, and I want to do stuff myself!"
[19:42] <KenMan> then how do hemmorhoids occur ?
[19:42] <toad_> eek
[19:43] <KenMan> anyway, to get slightly more on topic (which follows the time of the toad) ... should freenet be used to overcome poor legislation ?
[19:44] <toad_> obviously everyone here is somewhere on the libertarian side.. but the diversity of opinions can be pretty scary
[19:44] <toad_> KenMan: if I express an opinion on that, I may have to kill you ;)
[19:44] <KenMan> like, what if freenet could bring about more affordable / slummy housing around the world ?
[19:44] * toad_ thinks that would be really cool ;)
[19:44] <toad_> it seems rather unlikely though
[19:45] * kers (~kers@6.ppp135.rsd.worldonline.se) has joined #freenet
[19:45] * toad_ is thankful that the Co$ crap is widely distributed off freenet, but it's a great example
[19:45] <KenMan> Habitat for Human Computer Users
[19:45] <kers> YO KENMAN
[19:45] <kers> oops
[19:45] <toad_> hi kers
[19:45] <kers> never mind the caps
[19:45] <KenMan> you hurted my ears
[19:45] <kers> :/
[19:45] <KenMan> but warmed my soul for just a moment
[19:45] <kers> toad_: hi, what is new in the quest for freedom and liberty?
[19:46] <toad_> lol, you were listening somehow... :)
[19:46] <toad_> kers: when did you last check in?
[19:46] <kers> august 1984
[19:46] <KenMan> have you kept taking your medications ?
[19:46] * KenMan figures he must have !!!
[19:47] <toad_> why do i suddenly get a second wind when it's time to go to bed, about half past midnight? i'm really tired from about 19.00 to about 23.00... then when i decide to go to bed, i want to stay up..
[19:47] <kers> KenMan: oh yes, the guys in white coats have been very nice too me
[19:47] <KenMan> it is your diet and eating schedule. meethinks
[19:47] <toad_> kers: we've been doing simulations. the network seems okay except for inserts really sucking and a couple of rarely reported biggish bugs.
[19:48] <toad_> KenMan: eating too late? quite possibly
[19:48] <kers> toad_: have i told you lately that i love you ?
[19:48] <toad_> kers: no
[19:48] <toad_> are you gott?
[19:48] <KenMan> no, he is Rod Stewart
[19:48] <toad_> who is?
[19:48] <kers> toad_: no, if so, i would be on iip - anyways, me be lub y00
[19:48] <toad_> uh.. thank you
[19:49] <KenMan> kers is Rod Stewart , singing his latest tune "have I told you lately that i love you" :)
[19:49] <toad_> lol, scary
[19:49] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Visit http://CyberLore.net for recommendations on the best games, websites and freeware. Don't settle for anything else!")
[19:49] <kers> sofie just said that i'm more like michel bolton
[19:49] <kers> anyways, keep up the good work
[19:49] <KenMan> just to tune you in (he's surely not anyone's genre in here) that actually is his latest croon
[19:50] <KenMan> i like 2 or 3 of his older songs, but that is IT !!
[19:50] <KenMan> is he a brit ?
[19:50] <toad_> :)
[19:51] * toad_ has no idea, knows little about even remotely popular music
[19:51] <toad_> anyway.. i need to get up at 07:40, so i really ought to go to bed...
[19:52] <kers> my node has been running fine all the way (stable)
[19:52] <kers> but whats up with cofe ?
[19:52] <toad_> kers: inserts suck
[19:52] <toad_> that's what's up
[19:52] <toad_> i've tried to investigate, it may be due to timeouts, which i think i've fixed...
[19:52] <toad_> but there's soemthing wierd hapepning
[19:52] <kers> toad_: ok, sleep tight and please have a marvelous saturday :)
[19:53] * toad_ thinks that is likely despite early rising
[19:53] <KenMan> yes, good weekend to you all.
[19:54] <toad_> see you all in 12-13 hours
[19:54] <kers> take care
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.