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[0:13] <KenMan> /ban sanity, pupok
[0:13] * KenMan oops
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[0:14] <KenMan> that's better
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[0:14] <KenMan> AARRGGHHH !!!
[0:17] <KenMan> over a four hour period, my node took in 8604 requests, sent out 30561 requests, and received back 21658 rejections. Hmmm
[0:20] <KenMan> oh, and there were 145 routing successes (145 of those 30561 didn't get RNF or DNF)
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[0:21] <KenMan> I can only conclude that there were (30561 - 145 - 21658)=8758 timeouts... maybe I'm forgetting something critical, but that's the only way I can explain it right now.
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[0:23] * KenMan gives up and goes to bed...
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[3:46] <Bombe> Good morning.
[3:53] <Iakin5> Morning bombe
[3:53] <Iakin5> Good to see you
[3:54] <Bombe> Hey, Iakin.
[3:55] <Bombe> How's freenet behaving these days?
[4:19] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[4:34] <Iakin5> Bombe: Dont know really.. there has been some improvements recently but there still is the everpresent routing problems..
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[4:54] <Bombe> Hmm, that's a pity.
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[5:26] <Iakin5> Grrr.. FCP ClientEvents are a pest!
[5:27] <Bombe> Fred in whole is a beast.
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[5:41] <Iakin5> Indeed..
[5:41] <Iakin5> Bombe, can you give me a recommendation on a freenet-related UI component?
[5:47] <Iakin5> iakin.poweruser.org/freenetstuff/transfers.jpg
[5:48] <Bombe> What do you mean by "freenet-related UI component"?
[5:49] <Iakin5> See the screed
[5:49] <Iakin5> s/d/n
[5:49] <Iakin5> Part of a progress webpage I am updating
[5:50] <Bombe> Hey, cool, those are still the icons I created. :)
[5:50] <Iakin5> I dont know what to do with the progress-bar row.. Where should I put the bar and the text
[5:50] <Iakin5> Indeed they are :)
[5:50] <Iakin5> Reuse is good
[5:51] <Bombe> Hmm... tricky.
[5:51] <Iakin5> And what should I do with the 'Progress' text.. should I just dump it
[5:52] <Bombe> I'd create a table with 2 columns, 1st one containing only "Progress" and the bar below (valign=top), 2nd one containing the other text and steps and stuff?.
[5:53] <Iakin5> But there might be multiple bars..
[5:53] <Bombe> Will that page handle splitfiles as well?
[5:53] <Iakin5> if the redirect succeeds there will be yet a bar
[5:53] <Iakin5> Bombe: This is for non-spf downloads only
[5:54] <Bombe> Iakin, well, if the redirect in step 2 succeeds you can drop the bar for the metadata.
[5:54] <Iakin5> The spf downloads still use the same UI
[5:54] <Bombe> You can also drop the metadata bar as soon as it's finished.
[5:54] <Bombe> What use is it after completion? :)
[5:55] <Iakin5> Well.. it is somewhat interesting for people to understand how things work sort of ;)
[5:55] <Iakin5> s/to/that need to learn
[5:55] <Bombe> Yes, but a progress bar showing completion right next to a text saying "success" does not carry any additional information.
[5:56] <Iakin5> Hmmm.. that is true..
[5:56] <Iakin5> Maybe I should use the bar if it isn't done and then switch to a text when it is done
[5:57] <Iakin5> But I still need to explain the meaning of the bar somewhere
[5:57] <Bombe> Detach the progress bar from the single steps performed.
[5:57] <Iakin5> And always put it at the bottom...
[5:57] <Iakin5> Hmm.. that might work
[5:57] <Bombe> *nod*
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[6:38] <KenMan> i can count all the unique keys that have ever been requested of me, and a count of all the unique keys I have ever routed...
[6:39] <KenMan> this is an /approximation/ of how many keys I was able to return from my store. 38320 in, 37342 out. 62571 total requests in, 210711 total requests out.
[6:39] <KenMan> (just some numbers for other people to roll over in their heads)
[6:40] * Bombe rolls the numbers over in his head.
[6:40] <KenMan> :)
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[6:45] <KenMan> obviously I got a few (~149500) QRs kicked back at me. The breakdown is... QR=loop: ~107000 , QR=RNF: ~29300 , QR=node overloaded: ~11365
[6:48] * KenMan wonders if the Bombe detects any telltale data to 'decode' the numbers...
[6:49] <Bombe> Those are nice numbers.
[6:49] <Bombe> Might I enquire about your rusty spoons?
[6:49] <KenMan> are you kidding ? those are terrible numbers. Man, you must have rusted over the past 50 years !! :p
[6:52] <KenMan> I expect that the high percentage due to looping is because requests are sometimes sent back to the requester, sometimes more than once...
[6:54] <Bombe> I only rusted for about one year, I think... but maybe that year evaluates to 50 freenet years. :)
[6:57] <KenMan> and how *did* you escape destruction ? were you placed in a museum, or were you shipped to the americans ??
[6:59] <jokern> KenMan: What did Toad do with 5092? it is using alot more mem then 5090
[7:00] <KenMan> he added request queueing. I'm not sure why it would use more memory though... Is your number of peers roughly the same ? that usually determines mem use for me...
[7:00] <jokern> Nmbrs of peers are lower then on 5090
[7:02] <jokern> And getting a new (for me ) error..and it is thousands of that error
[7:02] <KenMan> yowza! I haven't been paying attention to memory use , i set -Xmx=178m and have had no problems on a 512M box... buy never more than 80 connected peers.
[7:03] <jokern> On 5090 I was having 140-180 peers, now there are 107
[7:03] <KenMan> what is your new err message ? "Got DNV" ? or something else ?
[7:03] <jokern> Maximum memory the JVM will allocate 260,160 KiB
[7:03] <jokern> Memory currently allocated by the JVM 259,120 KiB
[7:03] <jokern> Memory in use 182,358,192 Bytes
[7:03] <jokern> Estimated memory used by logger None
[7:03] <jokern> Unused allocated memory 82,978,712 Bytes
[7:03] <jokern>
[7:04] <jokern> I have 1 gig mem so I could give it more..But thats not the question, why?
[7:04] <jokern> The error is:
[7:04] <jokern> 13:22:57 Too high probability: 1.003 while kludging freenet.node.rt.EdgeKludgingBinaryRunningAverage@96b8f8 (-3 0s, 1003 1s, 1000 total), init=0.5, index=327
[7:06] <KenMan> 107 'connected' peers, i assume. Try -Xmx=350m instead of 256 then.
[7:06] <jokern> Ant that error have made logsize grow to 130Mb in 14 hours
[7:07] <KenMan> Ick, I have 75335 of those errors myself. Notice that the counts are invalid ( -3 0's in your example )
[7:07] <jokern> Yupp, and thats aan error introduced in the latest release.
[7:08] <KenMan> for the most part I don't fix bugs :( I just try to identify the higher priority ones, but even that is quite difficult :o
[7:09] <KenMan> this code is just too big, and it grows in leaps and bounds...
[7:09] <Bombe> Right.
[7:10] <jokern> And : Current routingTime 0ms Allways?
[7:10] <KenMan> of course not, just a side effect (bug to be cleaned up) due to request queueing
[7:11] <jokern> Any place that show the "que"
[7:12] <KenMan> not sure, but there are lots of new diags. Average time in queue is what you want for routingTime. I think.
[7:13] <jokern> Anyway, it IS moving data around the network :) 14 hours uptime :
[7:13] <jokern> Total amount of data transmitted/received 1,218 MiB/1,013 MiB
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[7:49] -NickServ- This nickname is owned by someone else
[7:49] -NickServ- If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
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[10:09] <pittaman> hey, it's working :)
[10:28] <ShaunMacPherson> is it?
[10:28] <ShaunMacPherson> define working :)
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[10:43] <pittaman> wel... I can fetch some activelink images
[10:43] <pittaman> that's about it though, but it's a fresh node
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[10:54] <pittaman> well, it's way better than it was last time I used it :)
[10:57] <ShaunMacPherson> sounds good hehe
[10:57] <KenMan> that's exactly what we need - more reports that "it works" ...
[10:59] <pittaman> I'll report problems too..
[11:00] <KenMan> naw, we don't like those ...
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[12:20] <Ash-Fox> Use your brain, dont let it rot to mulch in your cranial, because one day, you might need it to converse with the guys at the golf club. And my teas cold.
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[12:45] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> so, how are things with the queueing, sanity?
[12:46] <KenMan> he doesn't actually speak in here anymore. He just pollutes the channel with 500+ connect/disconnect messages every day.
[12:47] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> ahg, yes, sanity comes and goes like a runaway bot these days
[12:47] <KenMan> i don't think queueing has accomplished much, but hopefully someone else will share a better experience...
[12:47] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> well, feel free to answer in his place, Kenman
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> It wouldn't surprise me a bit
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[12:48] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> I've said it before and I've said it again; we need a testnetwork
[12:48] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> all that blindly searching where NGR go?es wrong is a giant waste of time, effort and money
[12:49] <KenMan> if I were sanity, I would say... "Queueing has made massive improvements to the stable network, and we are still working to quantify the degree of improvement"
[12:49] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> yes, indeed
[12:50] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> that's his standard phrase
[12:50] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> but it's not his fault that it doesn't work, though. It's only his fault he clamps to it like a drowning guy gasps for air
[12:51] <KenMan> heh, he is less generous with the standard phrases these days... it is disturbing that he doesn't code on it anymore.
[12:51] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> at some time, you just HAVE to say: enough is enough, and start with something that could resolve the matter
[12:51] <KenMan> you mean... as in... abandon NGR ??
[12:52] <KenMan> how dare you !
[12:52] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> well, maybe not completely abandon. But it's clear no devl has any idea what it does and doesn't, let alone why. I would suggest developping a true testnetwork, and then looking at what actually happens
[12:53] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> once you know that, you are not blindly trying to guess why it doesn't work, and can start handling the problem more systematic
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[12:54] <KenMan> i have mixed feelings about a distributed (across the internet) testnetwork - a local compute cluster would be better. But who would pay for that ?!
[12:54] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> you!
[12:54] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> ;-)
[12:55] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> besides, frankly -provided there is enough datatransfers on it - I think it's actually better to test the real impact of something
[12:55] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> with simulations and local testnetworks you are prone to make it non-representative
[12:56] <KenMan> many results can be obtained with a local testnet, and the bigger the better.
[12:57] <KenMan> you *can* simulate internet links , but i can't argue against you for several reasons.
[12:57] <KenMan> you are right, it would help. I just have trouble believing that it could be productive - somehow I picture toad wasting all his time maintaining or diagnosing 100 different computers :(
[12:58] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> like, irl, a network has different b/w limits, capacities, computers and hardware, software, builds, going on and offline, nodes that mainly requests or insert, and of a certain type etc
[12:58] <KenMan> that can all be modelled to a decent enough level as to get us 80% of the way there, then the rest could be found IRL
[12:59] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> well, it's true he must be carefull not to be overflooded in irrelevant data
[12:59] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> sometimes, I think that's the case with google allready these days
[12:59] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> that said, with some good managing tools, it would be possible
[13:00] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> I mean, it would be potentially very valuable to know when a file leaves, where it goes, and what happens to it
[13:00] <KenMan> the difference is in the approach - toad could hop around chasing unknown quantities, or he could construct his own experiments and conduct them in a 'sterile' environment
[13:01] <KenMan> is he just looking for random troubles to fix, or is he focused on a specific hypothesis / experiment...
[13:03] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> yes, well, there is something to say for it, ofcourse. But generally speaking, similutions mostly suck, untill you know the exact variables, and we have no ideas what really matters and goes on to do accurate simulations. A local testnetwork would do better then a software-emulating/simulating thingy, but I doubt that's financially possible
[13:04] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> leaves only a testnetwork of volunteers. Now, if the testnetwork is flexible enough, he COULD also use it for experiments of his own.
[13:05] <KenMan> some things will only occur in a real internet-distributed network. But we have bigger CORE problems to solve that don't require a big testnet. Yes, you are right that he could use it for crafted experiments, i wish it would "just happen."
[13:06] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> coreproblems like NGR? ;-)
[13:06] <KenMan> no one argues that routing *doesn't* suck
[13:07] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> I think many of those core problems won't get solved untill we know what is actually going on
[13:08] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> I mean, let's face it, b/w limiting, NGR, the question of RNF and DNF...there have been dozens of 'patches' and 'bugfixes' and new ideas tried, but it's still as crappy as it was
[13:08] <KenMan> every engineer would develop a different approach to analyzing / improving NGR . I'm not against a testnetwork, but I haven't seen a vision for how it will be used... what would be the 1st experiment? What kinds of data would be collected ? How would toad 'direct' the symphony ?
[13:08] <KenMan> it surely is still crappy
[13:09] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> well, obviously, it can't be anonymous. Some might find that a pitty, but, well, they still have stable. And a testnetwork is mainly for testing, after all.
[13:09] <KenMan> are there techniques that have been overlooked, things that would help toad analyze the problem without the distraction of attempting to direct a farflung network of unknown entities?
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[13:11] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> I could imagine that he has an auto-update feature and complete inside in each node. Cerrtain questions could be easily answered, then. Like, does an RNF occurs when the node it routes to is overloaded or are there other reasons? And another advantage is, he can optimise more easily. If he want to try out another algorithm to see if that's more succesful, he could do that more easily, and see the results more clearly
[13:13] <KenMan> assuming it all just 'works smoothly' :) here's hoping he reaches that state someday soon
[13:13] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> because in that respect, this project really sucks. How can we ever know for sure if queueing helped or not? Some say it's better, other say it's worse. I've seen this with every new change. It's very hard to know whather something is a step in the good direction or not, currently.
[13:17] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> and maybe the problems with the old algo were more to do with some of the major bugs that were still around at that time? We have to wonder, because we have no way of determining that, for the moment.
[13:18] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> it must be said that the old algorithm at least showed clear signs of specialisation and was pretty good at routing
[13:18] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> it must be said that the old algorithm at least showed clear signs of specialisation and was pretty good at routing
[13:18] <i2p_iip> <Newsbyte> the counterargument always is/was, that it's not scalable. Well, duh. is NGR? Thusfar, NGR has been far worse.
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[13:29] <thelema> news: there's still bugs left in the estimator code.
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[14:00] <KenMan> heh, here's a route that must be sort of overloaded - it sent me an mRI of 62916577ms
[14:01] <KenMan> it doesn't want any requests for the next 17 hours. I am confident my node will retain it in the RT however...
[14:04] <KenMan> requestSuccess=2.9%, routingSuccess=2.0% for last 17 hours worth of data. This is worse than 5090 network, but very similar. The volume of queries is about the same. And I'll get different numbers tomorrow.
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[15:22] <KenMan> so far today my node has accepted 29847 requests, and sent 74171 queries out...
[15:23] <cbreak> is it multiplicating queries or are you downloading a LOT of stuff?
[15:23] <vsalento> I don't know if this has any implication but I ran a test, where I inserted 50 random files (htl=3) into freenet and then requested them... results are:
[15:24] <vsalento> - could retrieve 64% of files, 36% DNF
[15:24] <KenMan> i am not using the node. It is multiplying queries - QRs were "Looped"=21024 "Node overwhelmed"=9263 "RNF"=7836
[15:24] <vsalento> - only 53% of those that could be retrieved were reported as successful inserts
[15:24] <KenMan> heh
[15:26] <vsalento> it would be nice to know whether with FCP results would be different but using AutoRequester (FNP) those were the results
[15:27] <KenMan> i just realized that a LOT of my outgoing queries must have timed out. Only 39921 of 74171 returned a QR (and I didn't have more than 1000 successes)...
[15:27] <vsalento> for 20% of inserts the following exception was thrown (about 50% were however retrievable):
[15:27] <vsalento> java.io.EOFException: Could not parse message from stream
[15:27] <vsalento> at freenet.presentation.FCPRawMessage.<init>(FCPRawMessage.java:76)
[15:28] <KenMan> 50% of those were still retrievable though ??
[15:28] <vsalento> yes
[15:28] <KenMan> nasty !
[15:28] <cbreak> maybe freenets NGR has developed some kind of AI, which can understand even unparsable messages...
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[15:29] <KenMan> it is true that some bugs work in our favor (statistically) but this is unintentional, and insufficient to save us all :p
[15:30] <vsalento> then 24% of inserts just hang there without reporting state to become DONE/FAILED that I kill after 5 minutes of inactivity. However 42% of those are retrievable.
[15:30] <KenMan> "FreeNet - mass consumer of bandwidth, with very little to show for it ..." :)
[15:31] <cbreak> did you try to retrieve the data from your own or an other node?
[15:31] <vsalento> If it matters for anyone the testing was done for unstable
[15:31] <KenMan> of course that matters - do it again for stable. Are you using the 'skip over the DS when inserting' flag ?
[15:32] <vsalento> Only my own node... it should be quite easy to test that using some other node but I need few days to fix code to support that
[15:32] <vsalento> I'm using AutoRequester.doPut() and it doesn't have that kind of option (or I don't know how to use one)
[15:33] <KenMan> so some of the keys might have been retained within your local store ?
[15:33] <vsalento> I think all should have been there... if I cannot retrieve them from local storage why should I even test other nodes?
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[15:34] <vsalento> After they are all retrievable from local storage then I want to test retrieving them from other nodes and varying htl etc
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[15:34] <KenMan> ah, okay :) well, they might not be ALL retrievable from local store... but good enough. You understand what you're doing presently :)
[15:35] <vsalento> I just would like that freenet would consistently report correctly whether insert succeeded/failed... odd errors aren't fun
[15:36] <KenMan> heh, and those are just the ones you can 'see' ... hehe
[15:36] <vsalento> maybe I should have started to use FCP instead of that AutoRequester...
[15:38] <vsalento> the app I have written reads following kind of input and then reports outcome.
[15:38] <vsalento> > connect node 1 in localhost
[15:38] <vsalento> > create file A on node 1 as random size 32000
[15:38] <vsalento> > insert file A on node 1
[15:38] <vsalento> > request file A from node 1
[15:38] <vsalento> > disconnect node 1
[15:39] <vsalento> that makes it easy to run different insert simulations... to see whether things get better/worse
[15:39] <KenMan> I think that with every day that passes, I am more amazed that FreeNet is able to do what it currently accomplishes...
[15:40] <cbreak> anyone here knows how to replace strings in a text files with contents of other text files by using basic shell scripting functionality? (I have hacked a bit with awk, but it seems unsuited to that task.)
[15:40] <vsalento> well sometimes I'm not sure whether random routing would give same results than what freenet gives currently...
[15:42] <KenMan> cbreak - perl is probably your best friend - using sed would be tricky.
[15:42] <KenMan> vaslento - I don't believe that FreeNet is significantly different from random routing :o
[15:42] <cbreak> hmm... ok, time to learn perl... :)
[15:43] <KenMan> it's not all that bad - you learn a few basic tricks and grow on them over time... the official tutorials are not bad, and there are tons of others available on the net
[15:44] <KenMan> my favorite thing with perl (which is not terribly appropriate in some cases where I use it) is to open a file and read all the lines into an array.
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[15:44] <KenMan> then you can operate on array(s) ...
[15:44] <vsalento> it is nice to follow freenet development as academic interest but simpler network with onion routing/public node specialization would perhaps be enough for most users
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[15:44] <KenMan> probably... but it won't happen here. Nothing simple is permitted :)
[15:44] <vsalento> KenMan: is there any other way? (in perl) :)
[15:45] <cbreak> Freenet is not longhorn, you can not simply stripp its main feature...
[15:45] <vsalento> yes I know... been following this for over 4 years now
[15:45] <KenMan> man, what is wrong with you ? I've only been for about one year, and it is too frustrating to watch...
[15:46] <cbreak> Maybe Ruby is a better investment than Perl.
[15:46] <KenMan> I am nearing the end of my interest in FreeNet , unless something MAJOR happens soon.
[15:46] <gregh> python is a good choice
[15:46] <vsalento> well I don't use the network myself so whether it works or not is not so important... I just like the idea of it
[15:47] <KenMan> i don't use it either - but the concept is fascinating, if it could be made to work on a more efficient level...
[15:47] <KenMan> of course there are philosophical questions swirled in - for example, in USA, we have Free Speech with reasonable conditions - slander is not allowed.
[15:47] <vsalento> yes and by looking how things are going there might be a need for this kind of transport layer system in few years
[15:48] <cbreak> Free Speech Zones?
[15:48] <KenMan> You just can't put ANY restrictions on this concept. Well, things like screaming "Fire" in a crowded movie theater is illegal, and potentially harmful.
[15:49] <KenMan> medical advice on freenet is not something to look forward to...
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[15:49] <vsalento> well I don't think that is similar to publishing something on freenet/web
[15:50] <vsalento> in web you must be looking for it whereas in public place it is different situation
[15:50] <KenMan> suppose I convince a large number of people that some cleaning chemical actually has health benefits if you drink it. Wouldn't that be kind of bad ?
[15:51] <vsalento> what's wrong with medical advice on freenet? if someone is stupid enough to believe that its their own problem...
[15:51] <cbreak> -> Darwin Award Experiment
[15:51] <KenMan> I mean, look how easily swayed some people must be, in order to respond to those "make millions by clicking on this link" type of stuff
[15:51] <vsalento> well some of those awarded really needed it
[15:52] <KenMan> I actually put a lot of belief into Darwin's model, but... I also conform to the laws of my country.
[15:52] <vsalento> but I think people need to take responsibility of their actions and if they do stupid things based on false information from questionable sources then it's only their problem
[15:54] <KenMan> i basically agree, i'm just not perfectly settled (even after a year) with the idea of completely unrestricted publication.
[15:54] <vsalento> the less people need to think by themselves the less they think by themselves...
[15:54] <cbreak> As long as the choice to read the stuff is on the consumers side...
[15:55] <KenMan> Will anonymity encourage lots of people to break existing laws ? I suspect it may.
[15:56] <vsalento> cbreak: how come the choice could be somewhere else?
[15:56] <vsalento> KenMan: what kind of laws are you talking about? there are some that I think are not needed anymore
[15:57] <KenMan> the ones that you may consider to 'still be needed'
[15:57] <vsalento> well the basic stuff like you cannot kill someone etc - freenet makes no change there
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[15:58] <KenMan> and, FreeNet is unlikely to change the ethics of anyone who uses FreeNet. Those who might commit crimes, might commit crimes. I wouldn't blame FreeNet.
[15:58] <cbreak> vsalento: 1984 (Orwell), farenheit 451 (Bradbury), ... :)
[15:59] <vsalento> however slander etc can become more common, but since 'well known' news sources wouldn't publish them the people would need to seek to find them... and if someone is seeking that does it matter then anymore?
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[16:00] <vsalento> cbreak: i'm shamed that I can't remember what those handled anymore...
[16:00] <cbreak> I only read the summary, which is even worse... :(
[16:01] <KenMan> Although, in some circumstances, FreeNet might make it easier to commit some kind of crime. Depending on the perceived severity, the common public reaction would be to lay *some* blame on the tools that make it possible/easier.
[16:01] <cbreak> 1984: It appears that all media is controlled by the government, free Thinking is heavily punished.
[16:02] <vsalento> well does guns kill people or are the people to blame? :)
[16:02] <cbreak> Farenheit 451: Books are declared illegal, and get burned by firemen. Main Information Source: Stupid Talkshows.
[16:02] <KenMan> If , for instance, it could be demonstrated in some acceptable manner that FreeNet was mainly used for evil purposes, then most logical people would form an opinion *against* freenet.
[16:02] <KenMan> If most guns was used to commit murder, then the rules would likely be different. As it is, we have so many guns, probably only 1% of them are used for murder.
[16:03] <cbreak> You can not even proove freenet is used for any purpose other than freenet itself at all... :)
[16:03] <KenMan> that's not true. I know from where you come, but suppose for the average user, upon opening the provided links, the majority of content they get exposed to is illegal.
[16:04] <KenMan> That is considered an acceptable 'measurement' to the public at large
[16:04] <KenMan> and, well, i hope freenet doesn't generate any lynch mobs... that's all.
[16:05] <vsalento> well perhaps majority of *public* content... but how much there are traffic that is caused by tools/communication that aren't public
[16:05] <KenMan> since they wouldn't know who to lynch, they would likely confer with their public representatives, if they have any.
[16:06] <vsalento> like should whole Internet be banned since there are so much warez traded there
[16:06] <KenMan> public content is what forms public opinion, which is what is used to form public laws... etc...
[16:06] <KenMan> vsalento: probably. Fortunately that isn't likely to happen.
[16:06] <vsalento> so if you get mostly spam in your email the whole email is mainly used for spam? it is not possible that it works for others
[16:07] <vsalento> well not likely :) there are too many companies that are very much dependable about it
[16:07] <cbreak> Fortunately there are different countries on this planet, and I bet a small amount of currency that they can't agree on a "World Law".
[16:07] <KenMan> if 99% of users report spam, and decide that they don't like it, they are in a position to cast a communal 'judgement' which is what most laws are based upon, in democratic societies
[16:08] <KenMan> so, it would be a bad thing if the global set of internet users could declare spam to be illegal or "bad" ??
[16:08] <vsalento> well it doesn't matter for me if they don't want to use freenet or some other tool ... just they shouldn't stop me from using it if I so decide
[16:10] <vsalento> I think that governments should only punish their own citizen based on the local laws... for global things I don't think there are much that can be done since it is unlikely a consensus could be made
[16:11] <cbreak> vsalento: yes.
[16:11] <vsalento> every country want to advantages/profits for themselves so in free market/society that would mean that no one would get anything but everything would be free
[16:13] <vsalento> but of course all the problems would be solved if all the people would unite behind me and do what I tell them to =)
[16:13] <cbreak> unlikely.
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[16:14] <vsalento> well I don't think it will happen either... or I wouldn't even want the responsibility that would come with that
[16:15] <cbreak> I like my position in the world: Staying at the sideline and tell everyone how stupid he is...
[16:15] <cbreak> (Mainly how stupid politicians and managers are, those who are in power...)
[16:17] <KenMan> but whatever country you live in, you are expected to abide by the rules/laws imposed on you. Unless you are king you don't get to pick and choose which laws are supposed to apply to you.
[16:18] <KenMan> and which you should be free to break. What I'm driving at is that no country permits its citizens to declare their own personal laws that only apply to them.
[16:19] <KenMan> granted, there are some dumb laws out there, ones that virtually no one obeys. But the point is that it should be possible to create laws that apply to everyone. Like "murder is bad" and we don't think you should commit it.
[16:19] <cbreak> That is true. But until now I rarely disagree with the law. And where I disagree, I am not alone. In theory, the people in my country could make their own laws, if they get enough signatures and win a vote.
[16:20] <KenMan> That is a good application for FreeNet. Suggesting alternate laws and coordinating political action.
[16:20] <KenMan> The US government could not have been created without anonymous speech. Handbills were integral in suggesting an alternate form of govt.
[16:21] <KenMan> If you had been caught suggesting 'treason' against the king of england, you might be punished in the extreme.
[16:21] <vsalento> well I don't personnally think all the laws are created equal. and if most people break some laws couldn't that be indication that there is something wrong with the law?
[16:21] <cbreak> Fortunately times have changed. Officialy...
[16:22] <KenMan> vsalento: sure, but until the law is deposed, technically the people are still breaking them.
[16:22] <KenMan> and we all know the wheels of government can be slow to turn.
[16:23] <vsalento> yes they are... but if it doesn't harm anyone then what's the problem? Aren't the laws there to make things work smoothly?
[16:23] <cbreak> KenMan: But still, People who speak against bush are arrested because of other reasons. Reasons that may apply to a lot of other persons, but which are selectively enforced.
[16:24] <KenMan> it is the conundrum of whether the letter of the law carries any weight. If everyone ignores them, then they are not effective. In this day and age, citizens should be able to vote electronically on issues, rather than candidates. And thus derive true democracy.
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[16:25] <vsalento> and the more stupid laws are made that people break intentionally the less respect do they have for good laws... the whole system is harmed as a whole
[16:25] * pitta|slaap is now known as pittaman
[16:25] <KenMan> 10 minutes at a computer voting on a handful of issues, once a week, could produce vastly more representative laws.
[16:25] <cbreak> Here we have a lot of elections about different topics, new laws. :P
[16:26] <KenMan> But that is future-thought. We can't even have electronic voting that is secure just yet.
[16:26] <cbreak> Ok, not electronicaly, and only about four times a year...
[16:26] <vsalento> but that would bring the same problems they had when democracy was used ... if things didn't went like you wanted you collected same minded people for the next day and overruled the yesterdays decicion
[16:27] <cbreak> We have a lot of overhead, which slows the process down. That gives a bit of continuity.
[16:28] <KenMan> obviously the fair consensus is that you collect votes over time, but the majority always rules. And you could only change your position on a time limited basis.
[16:28] <KenMan> I don't know, perhaps I am just optimistic about the future. :o
[16:28] * Iakin5 committed:
[16:28] <vsalento> there is one thing that I'm not sure how it works... should the politicians that are selected make decisions that are from their point of view good for the country or decisions based on their voters opinion
[16:29] <Iakin5> Build 60212:
[16:29] <Iakin5> A new look for FProxy downloads in the 'Current Downloads' infolet
[16:29] <vsalento> are they representing the country or voters?
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[16:30] <KenMan> in america they are free to choose their votes. This is where i think if a computer showed that 83% of that rep's electorate supported issue #1, they should be legally compelled to vote for #1.
[16:30] <KenMan> rather than making a decision "for them"
[16:30] <vsalento> but isn't it possible that they are better informed about the fact and know that public opinion is wrong?
[16:31] <KenMan> this might be where computers could come in very handy, assuming the security issues could be solved in a satisfactory manner.
[16:31] <KenMan> that is entirely possible, but , I believe their position is primarily to represent the people, not rule them.
[16:32] <cbreak> KenMan: I read a story written by Isaac Asimov, where an unnamed country voted by interpolating the Brain waves of a carefully selected Person...
[16:32] <Iakin> Please test that new layout..
[16:32] <KenMan> Iakin - cool. Where is the screenshot again ?
[16:32] <Iakin> It is fcking hard to handle the Client events
[16:32] <vsalento> most people make their mind based on feelings and very few knows any facts about the things... if that is allowed to enforce rep's vote I wouldn't like it
[16:33] <KenMan> vsalento: that is true and unfortunate
[16:33] <Iakin> [12:06] <Iakin5> iakin.poweruser.org/freenetstuff/transfers.jpg
[16:33] <Iakin> ^^ That is the previous iteration.. it should look somewhat better now..
[16:33] <Iakin> it might still need some work though..
[16:34] <Iakin> But I'll not do any on it now..
[16:34] <Iakin> (unless some bug has snuck in)
[16:34] <KenMan> anything that can expose the internals to people is a good thing for future development.
[16:34] <Iakin> ok, cu..
[16:34] <KenMan> later !
[16:34] <Iakin> I am off to bed now
[16:34] <cbreak> the snapshots are not updated yet :/
[16:34] <KenMan> i am off to cookout now...
[16:35] <vsalento> well I need to get some sleep too
[16:41] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
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[16:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
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[17:29] * nextime (~nextime@danex.i-m-c.it) Quit ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!")
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[18:12] * pittaman (~mistery_b@d51A410CA.kabel.telenet.be) Quit ("http://www.moon-zine.be/3.txt http://www.moon-zine.be/3.txt http://www.moon-zine.be/3.txt http://www.moon-zine.be/3.txt http:)
[18:16] * Iakin (Iakin@as25-4-6.kp.g.bonet.se) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[18:23] <hobx__> !seen toad_
[18:23] <hobx__> seen toad_
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> lol
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> hes be back soon
[18:23] <hobx__> No bots in here?
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> i am an bot
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> well i should be
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> hmm
[18:23] <|UK-Monster|> i must be off
[18:24] <|UK-Monster|> he gone for an some days
[18:24] <hobx__> seems so
[18:24] <|UK-Monster|> not seems
[18:25] <|UK-Monster|> is
[18:25] * |UK-Monster| is now known as lexx
[18:37] * hobx__ (~chatzilla@eugene.dagstuhl.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:48] <tav> .seen toad_
[18:48] <xena> toad_ seen in #freenet saying: [ if freenet breaks in the meantime... scream and run in small circles ] ~ 4 day(s) 1 min(s) 5 sec(s) ago
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[19:01] <cehteh> the line before was something "i leave for some days"
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[20:05] * cbreak (~cbreak@dhcp-32-094.via-eth.ch) Quit ("leaving")
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[20:55] <jokern> 03:04:48 Took 1160937ms to get EarlyTimeout! :)
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These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.