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[6:40] <benxor> what does it mean when a peer node 'backs off' or 'restarts' or 'cleanly rejects'??
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[7:29] <Overand> "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
[7:29] <Overand> that's a new alias in IRSSI. It's useful, I think
[7:49] <Redb3ard> hmm
[7:50] <Redb3ard> They who would give up essential liberty for some shiny baubles had better ask themselves if they are truly cool shiny baubles.
[7:53] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aao124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[7:56] <Redb3ard> this isnt fun
[7:56] <Redb3ard> getting undefined symbols in the java plugin
[8:00] <Redb3ard> hotdamn, got it
[8:08] * Ash-Foxeus (Hal-9000@aah249.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Client Quit)
[8:12] <Overand> Redb3ard: what version of java are you using?
[8:12] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) has joined #freenet
[8:12] <Redb3ard> ok, so ive run the start-freenet.sh script
[8:12] <Redb3ard> still cant get anything on what i assume is some sort of local proxy
[8:13] <greycat> check freenet.log
[8:13] <Redb3ard> ah, i need to go through the configure wizard
[8:13] <Redb3ard> duh
[8:13] <Redb3ard> sorry
[8:15] <Overand> YOU ARE HENCEFORTH BANISHED FROM THE REALM. Or not. S'ok. I was using some ancient java-VM and was having issues.
[8:15] <Overand> We all make mistakes.
[8:15] <Redb3ard> well, this isnt a newbie channel, and im asking all sorts of dumbshit
[8:15] <Redb3ard> and i should know better
[8:17] <Redb3ard> ok, got something
[8:17] <Redb3ard> btw... whats with the rabbit logo?
[8:18] <Redb3ard> reminds me of watership down for some reason
[8:21] <Overand> hm
[8:21] <Overand> maybe because freenet is like fiver
[8:22] <Overand> trying to save the warren (the internet) from impending doom (censorship) ?
[8:24] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) has joined #freenet
[8:30] <Redb3ard> bah
[8:30] <Redb3ard> i cant find anything on freenet
[8:30] <Redb3ard> someone have a link for me to try?
[8:30] <greycat> KSK@gpl.txt (warning: may not be a text file...)
[8:34] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[8:34] <Redb3ard> damn
[8:34] <Redb3ard> route not found
[8:34] <Redb3ard> on everything
[8:34] <Redb3ard> 16 backed off, 0s on everything else
[8:38] <Redb3ard> any friends that will give me a reference to their node?
[8:41] <Redb3ard> i may have to install this on the home server, so i dont have to do transient
[8:58] <Redb3ard> well, other than the image appearing for the freedom engine... im having no luck
[8:59] <toad__> only 16 conns? is this stable?
[8:59] <Redb3ard> i believe so
[9:00] <Redb3ard> i grabbed the package the faq pointed me at
[9:00] <Redb3ard> keep in mind i only got java working a half hour ago
[9:00] <Redb3ard> ah, teh freedom engine came up, finally
[9:01] <Redb3ard> :/
[9:01] <iip_i2p> <lonelynerd> toad: you wondered about security of pdf viewers? now there's a bugtraq post with the title "gv buffer overflows: here, there, and everywhere"
[9:01] <iip_i2p> <lonelynerd> toad: you wondered about security of pdf viewers? now there's a bugtraq post with the title "gv buffer overflows: here, there, and everywhere"
[9:01] <Redb3ard> toad, can i have your opinion on something political?
[9:01] <toad__> lonelynerd: nice :)
[9:01] <toad__> Redb3ard: hmm?
[9:01] <Redb3ard> i understand that freenet cant censor even the most objectionable things
[9:02] <Redb3ard> but the guy that runs the freedom engine...
[9:02] <toad__> hmm?
[9:02] <Redb3ard> he chooses to have links to pedophilia-related crap
[9:02] <Redb3ard> any idea why?
[9:02] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: he choses not to censor _anything_
[9:02] <greycat> ask him/her
[9:02] <toad__> freenet itself can't censor anything. the guys who run the indexes have the technical power to link to anything. I believe he explains why.
[9:03] <toad__> s/link to anything/not link to specific pages/
[9:03] <lolo-laptop> because if he started, where would he stop? At anything he personally doesn't like? At anything some crazy comittee doesn't like? Freenet is about freedom.
[9:03] <toad__> well, that's the argument
[9:03] <Redb3ard> yes
[9:03] <toad__> i'm not sure i agree
[9:03] <lolo-laptop> yeah, CofE explains somewhere...
[9:03] <Redb3ard> at anything he personally doesnt like
[9:03] <Redb3ard> since no one else, no committee can do it
[9:03] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: well he chose not to censor at all, and to accept any links people send him.
[9:04] <Redb3ard> i doubt that toad could censor him, even in the code
[9:04] <Redb3ard> figures
[9:04] <toad__> there is lots of stuff not linked from any of the index sites though...
[9:04] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: and I for one am glad that I know that his personal feelings do not influence what gets posted on his index
[9:05] <toad__> if I ran an index I might block all porn, whether legal or not, all warez... Because I don't agree with either of those things
[9:05] <Redb3ard> just as people pervert the spirit of the bill of rights "for our own good"
[9:05] <Redb3ard> this guy perverts it in the opposite direction
[9:05] <toad__> Redb3ard: perhaps. I said I'm unclear on it. But I can see and respect his position.
[9:05] <greycat> if you don't like how he runs his index, you can run your own
[9:05] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: that is your opinion
[9:05] <toad__> I'd prefer it was categorized
[9:05] <toad__> and others are
[9:06] <toad__> TFE isn't, for some reason
[9:06] <Redb3ard> has anyone considered, that since its the first link on that opening page...
[9:06] <Redb3ard> that people could get in trouble?
[9:06] <toad__> yes, we have considered it
[9:06] <Redb3ard> you install freenet, then the wife leaves you...
[9:06] * greycat wonders how many times this conversation has occurred
[9:06] <Redb3ard> claiming you are into child pornogrpahy?
[9:06] <Redb3ard> are the other indexes safer?
[9:07] <lolo-laptop> greycat: hehe, yeah
[9:07] <toad__> nobody runs censored indexes you could link to
[9:07] <greycat> run your own
[9:07] <toad__> the others are safer because they are categorized
[9:07] <toad__> and for no other reason
[9:07] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: the others are categorized... YoYo I think is much cleaner...
[9:07] <toad__> in terms of the global indexes - FIND, YoYo
[9:07] <toad__> the other point is if we choose which to link to on the basis of censorship concerns, we'll be compelled to link to indexes that only link to strictly legal content
[9:08] <toad__> and made responsible for it
[9:08] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[9:08] <toad__> THAT is a price too high to pay even to block some KP
[9:08] <toad__> but most of the KP isn't linked anyway - it's off IIP channels...
[9:08] <toad__> or Frost
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[9:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[9:09] <toad__> Redb3ard: anyway, I believe we have answered your quesiton
[9:09] <toad__> if you don't like it, run your own index
[9:09] <toad__> we might well link to it
[9:09] <Redb3ard> not complaining
[9:09] <Redb3ard> hell, who knows who this guy is, right?
[9:09] <toad__> if it's reasonably comprehensive
[9:09] <Redb3ard> just asking
[9:10] <toad__> ok
[9:10] <toad__> personally I don't like warez, and I don't like any form of pornography (although there are times when some nudity is acceptable)
[9:11] <Redb3ard> warez is much less objectionable to me
[9:11] <toad__> but I also vehemently dislike censorship of e.g. the Operating Thetan papers
[9:11] <Redb3ard> find me someone that is nearly bankrupt, ruined, claiming that they warezed his stuff...
[9:11] <Redb3ard> and ill have alot of sympathy
[9:11] <toad__> Redb3ard: the industry tells us this constantly
[9:11] <lolo-laptop> I'm actually more opposed to warez than I am to porn, so I don't visit warez sites... *shrug*
[9:11] <Redb3ard> yeh
[9:11] <Redb3ard> while theyre all fucking rich
[9:11] <toad__> the reality of course is that the RIAA rips off its own artists
[9:11] <toad__> the performers aren't rich
[9:12] <toad__> the industry is
[9:12] <Redb3ard> when sony music cries, i just cant cry with them
[9:12] <Redb3ard> its retarded
[9:12] <Redb3ard> lars ulrich only got to buy 1 ferrari, because of what we did to him, you know?
[9:12] <toad__> well, as I explained above... if we get into the business of content selection, we're in deep shit. even if we do it by the back door.
[9:12] <Redb3ard> how can a man live with only 1 ferrari?
[9:12] <toad__> lol
[9:13] <Redb3ard> no, and freenet's design means you cant do anything about it
[9:13] <toad__> that's why we don't run our own indexes - well one reason why
[9:13] <toad__> right. what's on the indexes is mostly a matter of public relations anyway - there are other means to get keys
[9:13] <toad__> Frost, IIP
[9:13] <Redb3ard> just think it wouldnt have been a bad idea for that guy to be more discreet, or to drop it altogether, and let the KPers look a little harder
[9:13] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: tell him so
[9:13] <toad__> well, I'm glad I don't have to run an index
[9:14] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: his e-mail address is linked... but he'll probably tell you to shove it out your nose *shrug*
[9:14] <Redb3ard> real email, or freenet email?
[9:14] <toad__> because either I'd end up censoring all porn and all warez... or I'd have to run an uncensored one
[9:14] <toad__> Redb3ard: he has a hushmail account
[9:14] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: he has a hushmail account that he responds to, I've communicated with him in the past
[9:14] <lolo-laptop> hehe
[9:14] <Redb3ard> toad, an index that didnt include those wouldnt be unuseful
[9:14] <toad__> Redb3ard: indeed
[9:14] <Redb3ard> non-useful?
[9:15] <toad__> there is room for one
[9:15] <greycat> the open-endedness of the universe is a perpetual surprise to people who've grown accustomed to walls
[9:15] <toad__> maybe one day your node will work well enough for you to run one :)
[9:15] <Redb3ard> transient, on a laptop
[9:15] <Redb3ard> i have an old shitbeater server that does everything in the house though
[9:15] <toad__> CofE used to insert from a dial-up
[9:16] <toad__> but if you want to spider you'll need better
[9:16] <Redb3ard> my website, universal remote functions in the living room, x10
[9:16] <Redb3ard> it might be able to run a node... but id have to add a hd
[9:16] <Redb3ard> think i have like less than 100megs free on it
[9:16] <toad__> Redb3ard: is it powerful enough?
[9:16] <Redb3ard> maybe
[9:16] * toad__ estimates 600MHz and 256MB of RAM as a respectable minimum...
[9:16] <Redb3ard> dual pentium 100, and im trying to get a third p100 cpu going in it (pci card)
[9:17] <toad__> you can do it on 200MHz but not very well
[9:17] <toad__> Redb3ard: curious... it won't be SMP though, what would you use it for?
[9:17] <Redb3ard> think i have 512megs in it
[9:17] <Redb3ard> its unbelievable how much ram the DEC machines would allow
[9:17] <toad__> well i gtg
[9:17] <toad__> bbiab
[9:17] <Redb3ard> i think it would take a gig if i could find 128meg 72pin simms
[9:18] <Redb3ard> and the cpu card... i could offload specific things to it, even if it couldnt be SMP
[9:18] <Redb3ard> depends on what code has been written
[9:19] <toad__> Redb3ard: personally I don't see why an index operator can't run a partially censored index, as long as he takes his anonymity very seriously, and declares his policy.. but I understand the political fashion, and I personally can't run an index for obvious reasons
[9:21] <Redb3ard> well, when freenet has 150 million people on it, then they can all make bold political statements
[9:21] <Redb3ard> just seems unwise, to do so, so early
[9:23] <lolo-laptop> Freenet _is_ a bold political statement.
[9:23] <lolo-laptop> :-D
[9:23] <Redb3ard> haha
[9:23] <Redb3ard> if you say so
[9:23] <Redb3ard> hmm
[9:23] <Redb3ard> say i reconfigure it so that it doesnt run on port 8888 (the proxy)
[9:24] <Redb3ard> it could appear as a regular website on my lan
[9:24] <Redb3ard> as a matter of fact, you could even roll https in this, maybe with some apache module
[9:24] <Redb3ard> what if you made that available to someone in china, for instance?
[9:24] <Redb3ard> they dont need to run the actual java software then
[9:24] <greycat> go ahead.
[9:24] <lolo-laptop> Redb3ard: you'd have to tell it to allow access remotely
[9:24] <lolo-laptop> there are public freenet proxies available...
[9:24] <Redb3ard> true, lolo
[9:25] <greycat> there *are* public freenet nodes out there, but they tend to be overwhelmed with demand
[9:25] <Redb3ard> yeh, but the idea would be to run one very discreetly
[9:25] <Redb3ard> only let the one or two dissidents know about it
[9:25] <toad__> IMHO doing what I suggested would itself be a bold political statement
[9:25] <Redb3ard> that way, doesnt show up on the chinese gov radar, so to speak
[9:25] <toad__> Redb3ard: chinese dissidents have a mailing list
[9:26] <toad__> every so often a new proxy is found and announced to the list
[9:26] <Redb3ard> the dissident doesnt need to run the software, and everything he sees is encrypted over https
[9:26] <toad__> then the gov blocks it
[9:26] <toad__> Redb3ard: and he's your thrall
[9:26] <Redb3ard> thrall?
[9:26] <toad__> better that we make freenet secure and usable for such situations
[9:26] <toad__> and they run a node themselves
[9:26] <Redb3ard> what, like you mean id lord it over him?
[9:26] <toad__> at least, some of them d
[9:26] <toad__> o
[9:27] <Redb3ard> why would i do anything like that
[9:27] <toad__> anyway bbl
[9:27] <toad__> Redb3ard: so how do you find a chinese dissent who needs such a service? :)
[9:27] <Redb3ard> dunno
[9:27] <Redb3ard> to be quite honest
[9:28] <Redb3ard> first, im trying to figure out how id even make it safe for him
[9:28] <Redb3ard> once i figure that out, maybe i dont even do it myself, i just tell others how
[9:28] <toad__> that is hard however the open web proxies are even LESS safe
[9:28] <toad__> but you do need some nodes behind the Great Wall
[9:29] <toad__> that's my point
[9:29] <Redb3ard> wouldnt have to be wide open
[9:29] <toad__> otherwise it's just too easy to block
[9:29] <Redb3ard> block it, when only 2 or 3 people know about it?
[9:29] <Redb3ard> of course if it goes out on the mailing list, itll get blocked
[9:29] <toad__> Redb3ard: what makes you think it'd stay 2 or 3
[9:29] <toad__> ?
[9:30] <toad__> in any case, you can't find such a person
[9:30] <toad__> they can perhaps find you
[9:30] <toad__> but most likely they'd find us
[9:30] <toad__> and we'd help them to set up a node
[9:30] <toad__> or even more likely they may find people in their own country who run nodes
[9:30] <Redb3ard> if you explained to them why staying 2 or 3 is important, maybe theyd be smart
[9:31] <Redb3ard> and if others did the same, they wouldnt all have to crowd around a single proxy
[9:31] <toad__> Redb3ard: it's not a realistic scenario unless you are already involved with them
[9:31] <toad__> if you are you're probably on the wrong side of the wall anyway
[9:31] <Redb3ard> maybe true, but even the mental exercise has value, imo
[9:31] <toad__> it's not safe for them to run their own nodes
[9:31] <toad__> but it's not safe for them to use the public proxies either
[9:32] <toad__> private proxies are possible but it's not usually possible/safe to find somebody willing to run one privately
[9:32] <Redb3ard> im wondering if the https would be suspicious itself even
[9:33] <toad__> depends on how much effort your opponent puts in
[9:33] * toad__ goes to get food
[9:35] <Redb3ard> there has to be a legit reason for a chinese person to use a website that uses https
[9:56] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) has joined #FreeNet
[10:08] <Iakin5> Timed out waiting for chunk in freenet.TrailerReaderInputStream: tr =freenet.MuxTrailerReader@ce9e26: ID=50315, curPos=16405, 0 chunks pending, 119 chunks recieved, wantChunk=true, ph=freenet.PeerHandler@102a0a5 (DSA(0073 277f 5e7d 5eec 894a 9b1e 1add 19f1 bf04 0e56),tcp/BlackDragon.dip.jp:27743, sessions=1, presentations=3, ID=DSA(0073 277f 5e7d 5eec 894a 9b1e 1add 19f1 bf04 0e56), version=Fred,0.6,1.51,60197): outbound attempts=4:4/8, bufferOffset=121, buffe
[10:08] <Iakin5> Hmmm..
[10:09] <Iakin5> Same shit as usual.. and this time from a build 60197
[10:10] <Iakin5> cat freenet.log > wc -l 16405
[10:10] <Iakin5> 4755
[10:11] <Iakin5> cat freenet.log > wc -l eating
[10:11] <Iakin5> 1600
[10:12] <Iakin5> ~95% times out after 16405 bytes
[10:15] <Iakin5> ...over 10 hours
[10:35] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[10:36] <Iakin5> Also some of these on every startup:
[10:36] <Iakin5> Aug 17, 2004 4:52:25 PM (freenet.node.rt.NGRoutingTable, main, ERROR): Caught java.io.IOException: Value out of range: 4500000.0 deserializing a NodeEstimator for DataObjectRoutingMemory:tcp/216.243.176.33:25000, sessions=1, presentations=3, ID=DSA(db94 f9f2 7b18 ea7c 3a76 0384 6561 6572 f48b 78d9), version=Fred,0.6,1.51,60194:db94f9f27b18ea7c3a76038465616572f48b78d9
[10:36] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.BootstrappingDecayingRunningAverage.<init>(BootstrappingDecayingRunningAverage.java:163)
[10:36] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.BootstrappingDecayingRunningAverageFactory.create(BootstrappingDecayingRunningAverageFactory.java:36)
[10:36] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.SlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.<init>(SlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.java:158)
[10:37] <Iakin5> ... is there something that don't check bounds properly
[10:37] <Iakin5> somewhere
[10:37] <Iakin5> bbl
[10:45] <Redb3ard> hotdamn
[10:46] <Redb3ard> the yoyo link image came up!
[10:46] * toad__ will be back soon
[10:48] <Redb3ard> just got yoyo
[10:54] <Redb3ard> hmm, what in the hell would you name a google clone on freenet?
[10:54] <Redb3ard> froogle is already taken
[10:54] <Redb3ard> freegle?
[10:54] <Redb3ard> haha
[11:07] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[11:28] <Redb3ard> well, i cant see anything other than the index sites
[11:28] <Redb3ard> anyone have a link of something smaller, i could try?
[11:34] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-254-221.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[11:44] * iip_i2p (~changate@host.teitel.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:52] * iip_i2p (~changate@host.teitel.net) has joined #freenet
[11:57] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:58] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) has joined #freenet
[12:16] <toad__> Iakin: I fixed the bug, or one of the bugs, that caused those timeouts
[12:17] <toad__> hopefully when 60197 is more widespread they will happen less often...
[12:17] <toad__> Iakin: re the 450000 thingy... show me the full stack trace
[12:17] <toad__> i need the next level to check a theory
[12:17] <toad__> Redb3ard: there are several google clones on freenet already. well 2.
[12:18] <toad__> one's called freegle, and may eventually be a search engine, the other's called google (but isn't really a search engine)
[12:18] <jay> fraggle
[12:19] <Redb3ard> toad, things will pick up in 24 hours?
[12:19] <Redb3ard> cause i can barely get anything
[12:19] <jay> Redb3ard: u running frost?
[12:19] <Redb3ard> some icon images are coming on in places
[12:19] <Redb3ard> no frost yet
[12:19] <toad__> Redb3ard: quite possibly
[12:19] <toad__> how many connections, and how many inbound?
[12:19] <jay> Redb3ard: that's something to try
[12:20] <Redb3ard> toad, not even sure how to check
[12:21] <toad__> go to advanced mode if you haven't already
[12:21] <toad__> go to the Open Connections page
[12:21] <toad__> okay, I'm going to try to reproduce CofE's bug, having received more detailed instructions...
[12:21] <Redb3ard> 0/40
[12:21] <toad__> Redb3ard: hmm
[12:21] <toad__> ?
[12:21] <toad__> 0 incoming 40 outgoing?
[12:21] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) Quit ("Client exiting")
[12:22] <Redb3ard> yeh
[12:22] <toad__> okay
[12:22] <Redb3ard> haha, this isnt claiming ive transferred 110megs is it?
[12:22] <toad__> are you firewalled?
[12:22] <toad__> are you dialup?
[12:22] <Redb3ard> cable modem, behind iptables
[12:22] <toad__> 110MB isn't much...
[12:22] <toad__> Redb3ard: have you forwarded the port?
[12:22] <Redb3ard> havent port forwarded anything, no
[12:23] <jay> ouch
[12:23] <Redb3ard> isnt this tcp?
[12:23] <Redb3ard> shouldnt stateful push the packets back at this machine?
[12:23] <jay> Redb3ard: as long as the incoming port is allowed to go through your network setup
[12:23] <jay> ive never used iptables
[12:23] <toad__> Redb3ard: other nodes need to be able to connect to your node
[12:24] <toad__> as well as yours being able to connect to them
[12:24] <toad__> yay, m0davis is still running a node...
[12:24] <Redb3ard> i dont block anything outbound, i generally trust my own lan
[12:26] <jay> Redb3ard: im talking about listenPort defined in freenet.conf
[12:26] <Redb3ard> ive got work to do, ill fix the forwarding later
[12:26] <Redb3ard> any idea what port number?
[12:26] <Redb3ard> and its tcp right?
[12:26] <jay> it's tcp
[12:26] <toad__> hmmm that's odd...
[12:26] <jay> and it's whatever value defined in the .conf file
[12:26] <toad__> i have two simultaneous reqs for tfe...
[12:27] <jay> mine is a 5 digit port
[12:27] <toad__> only one shows on current dls...
[12:27] <Redb3ard> so its random?
[12:27] <jay> Redb3ard: each node defines it's own port it listens on
[12:27] <jay> there's no 'standard' freenet port for Node communication
[12:28] <jay> fcpclients use 8481 specifically
[12:28] <jay> but nodes can use anything
[12:28] <greycat> grep listenPort freenet.conf
[12:30] <toad__> ooooh
[12:30] <toad__> it DIDNT get cached...
[12:31] <toad__> it happened to work the next time... but it didn't get cached !
[12:31] <sanity> ouch
[12:32] <toad__> hi sanity
[12:32] <sanity> didn't we disable pcaching?
[12:32] <toad__> long time no see
[12:32] <toad__> sanity: this is with an empty store
[12:32] <sanity> toad: yeah, sorry, been playing with my new mac :-)
[12:32] <toad__> sanity: therefore it should be cached..
[12:32] <sanity> toad: just fired up unstable with a fresh RT, been RNFing all day :-/
[12:32] <toad__> yup, it happens...
[12:33] <sanity> ...although maybe i am just seeing its first sign of life...
[12:33] <toad__> i suppose you've missed all my plans for world domination on devl ? :)
[12:33] <toad__> the first big thing is to implement queueing anyway
[12:33] <sanity> i have been following some stuff,
[12:34] <sanity> yeah, queueing sounds sensible enough, although i do have a nagging concern that the entire network might grind to a halt with every single message waiting in a queue
[12:34] <toad__> sanity: no, we don't have unlimited queue times
[12:34] <sanity> toad: ah, o
[12:34] <sanity> ok even
[12:35] <toad__> 10 secs/MB for requests, 20 secs/MB for inserts, 60 secs for local requests that aren't being retried due to QR
[12:35] <sanity> ok
[12:36] <toad__> the mechanism is quite interesting - preserving routing while queueing is tricky
[12:36] <toad__> but highly profitable
[12:36] <sanity> can you forward the significant email?
[12:37] <toad__> yeah, i'll see what i can do...
[12:45] <toad__> sanity: done
[12:48] <toad__> sanity: I rather like the 60 seconds for local requests...
[12:49] <toad__> and the way we choose requests to send is rather like unobtanium... m0davis had some idea that unobtanium on sending requests would be valuable, we'll find out soon
[12:49] <toad__> in any case the only other choice would have compromized routing
[12:59] <toad__> bbl
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[13:30] <Redb3ard> wow
[13:30] <Redb3ard> 86 processes open
[13:32] * Brutha- (~x@pD9E100CD.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #freenet
[13:48] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[13:49] * hobx (~hobx@h196n1fls21o1077.bredband.comhem.se) Quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
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[13:50] * hobx (~hobx@h196n1fls21o1077.bredband.comhem.se) has joined #freenet
[13:51] <Brutha-> hi
[13:52] <Brutha-> how long does it work till a node "can route requests effectively"
[13:53] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[13:54] <Redb3ard> so guys
[13:54] <Redb3ard> the listen port... is my transient node broadcasting tht to other nodes?
[13:55] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) has joined #freenet
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[14:11] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit ("Going to the moon")
[14:23] <Redb3ard> bah, 3 rules to get that forwarding working right
[14:24] <Redb3ard> ok, 2 incoming connections
[14:24] <jay> any incoming connections is good
[14:25] <Brutha-> i have post a meassage in a frost newbe forum and can't read it
[14:25] <Brutha-> is this normal?
[14:25] <Redb3ard> i dont like opening holes so wide in my firewall
[14:26] <jay> yeah it could take a while
[14:26] <Redb3ard> not that its easily exploited, or anything
[14:26] <jay> you only need to open listenPort
[14:26] <Redb3ard> just bad practice
[14:26] <Redb3ard> no, i needed to DNAT it to an internal IP on another segment, then i needed to allow it (i drop 192.168.x), then i needed to forward it to the correct interface
[14:27] <Redb3ard> you'd think id get good at iptables at some point
[14:28] <Brutha-> what is a while? a day?
[14:28] <jay> you'd think i'd use iptables
[14:28] <jay> Brutha-: yeah a day
[14:29] <jay> Brutha-: if you're firewalled you need to open a port
[14:29] <Redb3ard> if you arent firewalled, you should be
[14:30] <Redb3ard> jay, how many open processes is typical for freenet?
[14:30] <jay> Redb3ard: dunno
[14:30] <jay> i know little about Freenet itself and much about FCP and writing clients
[14:31] <jay> ie i've never tweaked my node past it's default config
[14:31] <jay> all those java processesa are actually threads iirc
[14:31] <Redb3ard> threads, processes
[14:32] <jay> but they show up separate since nptl isn't being used
[14:32] <Redb3ard> not so big a distinction on some OSs
[14:32] <jay> on windows it is
[14:32] <Redb3ard> not on windows here
[14:32] <Brutha-> which port?
[14:32] <jay> me neither
[14:32] <Redb3ard> brutha, its random apparently
[14:32] <Redb3ard> check in your file
[14:32] <jay> Brutha-: search freenet.conf for 'listenPort'
[14:32] <jay> or freenet.ini (windows)
[14:33] <jay> btw i haven't seen 1 new frost message today for whatever reason
[14:33] <Brutha-> my firewall (zonealarm) as asked giving the program server rights is that enough?
[14:33] <Brutha-> a have a router too ;)
[14:34] <Redb3ard> no, you have a crappy little piece of plastic consumer shit
[14:34] <jay> Brutha-: dunno about zonealarm
[14:34] <Redb3ard> a baynet is a router
[14:34] <Redb3ard> a cisco is a router
[14:34] <Redb3ard> a linksys is a blue turd
[14:34] <jay> bah they're routers
[14:34] <jay> an F1 car is still a car
[14:34] <Redb3ard> yes
[14:34] <greycat> an openbsd box with two NICs is a router. a cisco is an overpriced plastic/metal piece of crap with a proprietary OS
[14:34] <Redb3ard> but is a gremlin?
[14:34] <Redb3ard> thats my point
[14:34] <jay> Redb3ard: barely
[14:35] <Brutha-> no i have a router with hardware firewall
[14:35] <Redb3ard> linksys doesnt deserve the "barely"
[14:35] <Brutha-> from belkin
[14:35] <Redb3ard> brutha, ive tried to help people port forward with those
[14:35] <Redb3ard> good luck
[14:35] <Redb3ard> but yes, youll need to twiddle that too
[14:35] <Redb3ard> no idea on zone alarm
[14:35] <jay> it sounds like he has 2 'firewalls'
[14:35] <Brutha-> a software and a hardware ;)
[14:35] <jay> zonealarm is great for windows actually
[14:35] <Redb3ard> if you had a real OS, you could run tcpdump, and see if the packets are reaching you...
[14:36] <Redb3ard> which would give you some idea
[14:36] <jay> Brutha-: check for incoming connections on the gateway page
[14:36] <Brutha-> xp isnt a real os is it?
[14:36] <jay> Brutha-: i dont do OS wars
[14:36] <jay> or distro/emacs/vi/kde/gnome wars either
[14:37] <Redb3ard> xp, for the purposes of standard debugging tools like tcpdump, no it isnt
[14:37] <jay> incoming connections mean your network setup is cooperating with freenet
[14:37] <Redb3ard> you might want to try and download ethereal though
[14:38] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-254-130.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[14:38] <jay> ehtereal rocks but for users id recommend checking the gateway page for incoming connections
[14:40] <jay> Brutha-: select 'Advanced' from the gateway page and then 'Open Connections' under 'Networking' on the left navbar
[14:41] <jay> ugh that page is so damn large
[14:41] <jay> Brutha-: and then kill the loading of the rest of the page ;)
[14:41] <jay> mine says: Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 95 (51/44/200)
[14:42] <jay> im running frost and downlading a splitfile
[14:43] <Brutha-> 16 (0/16/200)
[14:43] <greycat> Brutha-: if you tell us your IP and FNP port, we can attempt to connect to it from here
[14:43] <Brutha-> fnp?
[14:44] <greycat> the listenPort
[14:44] <jay> Brutha-: listenPort in freenet.ini.. did u look it up?
[14:44] <Brutha-> looks like the program slows my system down ;)
[14:46] <Brutha-> listenPort=62879
[14:47] <jay> ah k
[14:47] <jay> Brutha-: that's the port u have to open
[14:48] <jay> Brutha-: 0 incoming..
[14:48] <jay> Brutha-: that means the firewall is blocking
[14:48] <jay> so freenet will run very badly if at all
[14:53] * Brutha- (~x@pD9E100CD.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #freenet
[14:54] <jay> heh
[14:54] <jay> satisfied customer?
[14:54] <jay> prolly not
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[14:57] <hobx> Man I love starting to write a new program.
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[14:58] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[14:58] * lostlogic_ (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[14:58] <hobx> From now on, I am only starting programs and quiting after a night or two when it gets complicated.
[14:59] <jay> lol
[14:59] <jay> you'll start many projects
[15:02] <jay> hobx: if we rename htl to ptl will that help ?
[15:03] <hobx> ptl?
[15:03] <jay> points to live
[15:03] <jay> eheh
[15:03] <jay> hobx: what /. article prompted that email?
[15:03] <hobx> i dont get it but it probably funny
[15:04] <jay> i laughed to myself
[15:04] <jay> hobx: i've been following the HTL arguments lately
[15:04] <jay> and read your recent email to Dev
[15:04] <hobx> jay: This thread: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=116948&cid=9897287
[15:11] <jay> Troed's page: "I'm a very social person, coming across as a prick on the Internet is mostly just a hobby."
[15:11] <jay> heh
[15:12] <jay> hobx: can you recommend to me something to read about the research by Goldberg or Dingledine ?
[15:12] <jay> im relatively new to P2P research ideas
[15:13] <jay> i code well but my theory is a little weak since college
[15:13] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[15:14] <Redb3ard> bah
[15:15] <hobx> I don't remember where you can read about mixnets.
[15:15] <jay> mixnets use onion routing ideas?
[15:16] <Redb3ard> eek!
[15:16] <Redb3ard> 207 processes
[15:16] <jay> Redb3ard: on 2nd thought i think they are actually processes
[15:17] <jay> nptl will show only 1 process with multiple threads but i think it's prone to crashing
[15:18] <hobx> jay: The principles are quiet simple. If you want to be truly anonymous you have to use:
[15:19] <hobx> 1) Onion routing. Each remailer peals off a layer of encryption, and finds another encrypted message and who it is encrypted for. At least three layers are needed.
[15:19] <hobx> 3) Defeat traffic analysis attacks by fake traffic, padded messages, etc.
[15:19] <hobx> 3) Defeat timing analysis by delaying messages
[15:20] <hobx> There is more, but with those three things I think you can build something that is pretty anonymous in practice.
[15:20] <hobx> Freenet is not it though.
[15:20] <jay> that much i realize
[15:21] <jay> hobx: what's the FP's consensus on onion routing?
[15:21] <jay> too much complication to implement?
[15:21] <hobx> how on earth can you ask me what the consensus of the project is.
[15:21] <jay> you know Ian better than me
[15:21] <hobx> I don't agree with present management on a single issue basically.
[15:21] <Redb3ard> yeh, anonymous, and about as modern as uucp usenet was in the early 80s
[15:22] <hobx> jay: Ah, so consensus == what Ian thinks?
[15:22] <jay> no but it starts there
[15:22] <jay> it's his job to listen to others
[15:22] <jay> but there is a project coordinator
[15:22] <Redb3ard> dude, build your own then
[15:22] <hobx> you'll have to ask him, but I think Ian believes that current Freenet anonymity is "good enough"
[15:22] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[15:23] <Redb3ard> hobx, want a look at my ideas?
[15:23] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[15:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[15:23] <jay> hobx: i don't have an *informed* opinion one way or another
[15:24] <jay> hobx: but since there's a history between you and others in the project i didn't fully understand your argument
[15:24] <jay> solely from following the Dev list
[15:26] <hobx> What argument?
[15:26] <hobx> It was on tech, not dev btw.
[15:26] <jay> basically that a mixnet provides more anonymity than crowds
[15:27] <jay> hobx: err tech
[15:27] <hobx> yes.
[15:27] <hobx> That is not weird.
[15:27] * Brutha- (~x@pD9E100CD.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #freenet
[15:28] <jay> hobx: well some of the topics discussed around here are too advanced for me
[15:28] <jay> and my intricate knowledge of music theory doesn't help
[15:29] <hobx> it is pretty simple. In a mixnet the person you send to cannot read your message, in crowds they can.
[15:30] <hobx> The point with crowds is that while they can read it, they can't prove that you weren't just passing it.
[15:30] <hobx> But it with enough data, it is easy to make a statistical case that you really started the chain.
[15:30] <jay> hobx: i've only recently became aware of that last part
[15:33] <Redb3ard> haha
[15:33] <Redb3ard> #1 the statistical claim wouldnt hold up in a court strong nation
[15:33] <jay> hence the HTL discussion on tech
[15:33] <Redb3ard> #2 in a court weak nation, they dont give a fuck, they torture you just because you use the software
[15:34] <Redb3ard> either way, no one is going to bother with statistical claims
[15:34] <jay> it wouldn't have to go to court
[15:34] <Redb3ard> thats of course with a level 5 spook (NSA, CIA, KGB if it still existed)
[15:34] <jay> a private organization could take action on their own
[15:34] <Redb3ard> level 1-4 you're still safe from
[15:35] <hobx> #1 Bullshit. Everything in court is a statistical claim. How do you think fingerprints, DNA, etc work.
[15:35] <hobx> #2 Is a very good point.
[15:35] <Redb3ard> level 1, we have the stalker nutjob, who knows you.... generally meaningless to anon networks, because they dont know if you're on freenet, and theyd rather stalk you in real life
[15:35] <Redb3ard> level 2, stalker nutjob, only knows you from freenet
[15:35] <Redb3ard> theyd have to be a savant to track you though
[15:36] <Redb3ard> level 3, corporate fuckhead (RIAA, MPAA, SBA)
[15:36] <Redb3ard> they have to go through courts, 80% of the time
[15:36] <Redb3ard> when they "take the law into their own hands" they usually do it very clumsily
[15:36] <Redb3ard> enough to nail napster, not enough to nail freenet
[15:36] <Redb3ard> level 4 local/federal law enforcement
[15:36] <hobx> The point with real anonymity is that you don't want to be made a suspect. Even if it wasn't possible to get a closed case from Freenet, if you just make a suspect out of somebody you have done all the damage (in a good society they will investigate and get you, in a bad they will torture and get you).
[15:36] <Redb3ard> they *have* to go through the courts
[15:37] <Redb3ard> hobx, ideally
[15:37] <jay> Redb3ard: the IRS doesn't
[15:37] <Redb3ard> do we wait 12 years before that software is available?
[15:37] <jay> they can sieze your house for whatever reason, legal or illegal
[15:37] <Redb3ard> jay, never thought of the IRS
[15:37] <jay> Redb3ard: that's who im afraid of
[15:37] <Redb3ard> ill have to annotate my list of attackers
[15:37] <Redb3ard> i guess the spooks are gonna be level 6 from now on ;)
[15:37] <jay> the organizations that are not behoden to the normal legal system
[15:37] <Redb3ard> will the IRS care?
[15:38] <Redb3ard> not like there's real anon money yet
[15:38] <Redb3ard> maybe in 5 years they will though
[15:38] <hobx> Redbeard: I'm quite convinced I could reveal a lot of freenet users who thought they were anonymous with very little work. And I am hardly an NSA spook.
[15:38] <jay> depends on the information
[15:38] <Redb3ard> hobx, on my own network, many people have blurted out stupid shit, that might as well have been their mailing address
[15:38] <Redb3ard> its only as strong as the user using it
[15:39] <jay> imo the IRS works for the system; they dont just collect taxes
[15:39] <Redb3ard> jay, im only a leve 1 tinfoil hat
[15:39] <Redb3ard> the double digit level stuff, i dont much care for
[15:39] <jay> i did consulting for them in DC
[15:39] <jay> heh
[15:40] <Redb3ard> when you start talking that the IRS is a front for a gray alien led trilateral commission illuminati agency
[15:40] <Redb3ard> even i find it hard to believe
[15:40] <jay> it's all just money and economics
[15:40] <Redb3ard> if no money is involved, the IRS has no jurisdiction, or even any real reason to be involved
[15:40] <Redb3ard> now, if they start thinking we have anon-cash on freenet...
[15:41] <jay> any threat to the model that keeps the elite rich and powerful is an unwanted variable
[15:41] <Redb3ard> then you have to worry
[15:41] <jay> they'll use whatever means at their disposal to deal with the 'problem'
[15:41] <jay> P2P is so dangerous to them because it stands to make IP laws obsolete
[15:42] <Redb3ard> if i could interest hobx, id like to hear his criticism of my own ideas/scheme
[15:42] <jay> and as a musician in can tell you how rich people have become on songs recorded years ago
[15:42] <Redb3ard> he said i should come back when i write software
[15:42] <Redb3ard> ;)
[15:42] <greycat> because all the recent songs suck ;-)
[15:42] <jay> greycat: i mean the money made off of the Beatles catalogue for example
[15:42] <Redb3ard> no, because of infinite copyright
[15:42] <jay> they still generate cash
[15:43] <Redb3ard> nanotech threatens to make even hardware merely IP
[15:43] <jay> Redb3ard: it's all intellectual property
[15:43] <jay> an abstract legal creation
[15:43] <Redb3ard> and when nanotech comes along, theyll own everything
[15:43] <jay> the idea that intellect is 'property' for some
[15:43] <Redb3ard> why is it, that those who believe in IP arent all that intellectual?
[15:43] <jay> it's totally at odds with a free society
[15:43] <iip_i2p> <mule> the problem is it includes property for others
[15:43] <jay> Redb3ard: cause they're happier being rich
[15:44] <iip_i2p> <mule> excludes
[15:44] <Redb3ard> some jackass on slashdot argued that it was wrong for african nations to make generic anti-aids drugs
[15:44] <jay> the problem is the notion exists
[15:44] <Redb3ard> i swear, i would have strangled him, had the conversation bene in person
[15:44] <jay> Redb3ard: heh UN agent
[15:44] <Redb3ard> stealing metallica songs isnt a vital need
[15:45] <Redb3ard> but goddamn... some people have no human soul, i think
[15:45] <greycat> you can't steal a song.
[15:45] <jay> you can 'steal' a song because someone passed a law that said so
[15:45] <Redb3ard> thats what the RIAA copyright weasel says in the elementary school comic books theyre passing out
[15:45] <iip_i2p> <mule> and without any benefit :)
[15:45] <jay> musicians make their money by touring and playing live
[15:45] <greycat> no, all you can do is infringe someone's copyright on either the song, or their recording thereof.
[15:45] <jay> money from record sales goes straight to The Corp.
[15:46] <Redb3ard> greycat, but to do that, id have to run off 1000 copies, and sell them at the flea market
[15:46] <jay> greycat: even that wasn't always true
[15:46] <jay> greycat: ie Rap in the 80's
[15:46] <greycat> you infringe the song itself by performing it. you infringe the recording by copying it.
[15:46] <Redb3ard> since that was already being enforced just fine in the 70s....
[15:46] <Redb3ard> they had to pass new laws
[15:46] <Redb3ard> technically, my biological memory, if high fidelity enough, is copyright infringement
[15:47] <jay> Redb3ard: originally it was considered 'fair-use' to copy music if you didn't sell it
[15:47] <jay> then the courts declared 'fair-use' doesn't apply to digital mediums
[15:47] <jay> this is all the product of twisted legal evolution
[15:48] <hobx> Redb3ard: The site you pointed me at is just full of a bunch of pseduotechnical waffle.
[15:48] <hobx> If you have code and a working network, then that is cool, but you pointed me at aint it.
[15:48] <iip_i2p> <mule> and the twisted mind of lawyers
[15:48] <jay> i've met lots of lawyers i like
[15:49] <jay> but even the ones i like don't quite understand my position on software patents
[15:49] <jay> probably because of technical ignorance
[15:49] <iip_i2p> <mule> i'm just observing that lawyers influence the laws made in the field of software patents
[15:50] <jay> mule: they really think FS programmers are stealing
[15:50] <jay> i explained to an IP lawyer why i was against software patents and she understood finally
[15:50] <jay> but was very opposed to me initially
[15:51] <iip_i2p> <mule> they don't understand that the level required for something considered an invention by developers is quite different from their's.
[15:51] <jay> and she will *still* work on IP law regardlesws
[15:51] <jay> mule: that's what i had to explain
[15:51] <jay> how software is created in the first place
[15:51] <hobx> anybody around who codes java?
[15:51] <iip_i2p> <mule> and they think their must be right, the software developers must have gone crazy opposing to it.
[15:51] <jay> hobx: i did a while ago
[15:52] <jay> the precedent for all this happened around 1900 in america
[15:52] <iip_i2p> <mule> and they do so for good financial reasons :(
[15:52] <jay> with patents granted under electricity
[15:52] <jay> they granted all kinds of bad and destructive patents back then as well
[15:53] <jay> but they all expired around 1930 ;)
[15:54] <iip_i2p> <mule> at that time patents have been ahead of time. today many are behind of time.
[15:55] <jay> mule: from what i understand it was a similar situation
[15:55] <iip_i2p> <mule> remove last of :)
[15:55] <jay> i have to read more about it but it came from a lawyer studying that period's IP laws
[15:56] <iip_i2p> <mule> i don't remember these times :)
[15:56] <jay> they wrote better books back then
[15:57] <jay> TV turned people into retards
[15:58] <iip_i2p> <mule> and this lawyer didn't conclude to correct that? i guess he conclude to go ahead with the mistakes made at that time. and with software patents there's much more money to make.
[15:59] <jay> there's no money in dismantling the patent system ;)
[15:59] <jay> shit i wrote software for marketing companies... not much better imo
[16:01] <Brutha-> if i have a link in a frost forum how do i use it?
[16:03] <jay> a freenet key?
[16:04] <iip_i2p> <mule> jay: still much better. it doesn't truly force others.
[16:06] <iip_i2p> <mule> toad_, are you around again?
[16:06] <jay> mule: oh marketing is forceful.. definitely
[16:06] <iip_i2p> <mule> or sanity?
[16:07] <jay> they play on the power of the imagination, and most people's ignorance of it
[16:08] <iip_i2p> <mule> jay, true, but you can at least partially escape with awareness.
[16:08] <iip_i2p> <mule> unlike software patents
[16:08] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:08] <jay> mule: actually u can't :)
[16:09] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[16:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[16:09] <jay> you cannot control the effect outside forces have on your own imagination
[16:09] <jay> you can only control your reaction to it happening
[16:10] <jay> but it happens whether you're paying attention to the tele or not
[16:10] <Redb3ard> what we really need, is patent extensions
[16:10] <Redb3ard> 17 years isnt enough, it should be brought into harmony with copyright
[16:10] <Redb3ard> 90 years + lifetime of the inventor
[16:10] <jay> that will just make the current software patent situation worse
[16:10] <Redb3ard> also, i think patents for art are in order
[16:11] <jay> i could disagree more as an artist
[16:11] <jay> nobody gives a shit what the artists want though
[16:11] <Redb3ard> for instance, if afro bob on pbs invents a new brushstroke while doing the oils...
[16:11] <Redb3ard> that should be patentable
[16:11] <jay> actually i meant i couldn't disagre more
[16:11] <jay> this keyboard isn't working right
[16:11] <Redb3ard> yes you could
[16:11] <Redb3ard> you arent trying hard enough
[16:12] <Redb3ard> ;)
[16:12] <jay> heh
[16:12] <jay> if the patent system served the public i would agree, but it doesn't
[16:12] <Redb3ard> of course it does
[16:12] <jay> it costs more than a few thousand dollars to even file a patent
[16:13] <Redb3ard> when patents are violated, it hurts the little man
[16:13] <jay> mosts artists don't have that
[16:13] <Redb3ard> you know, the regular joes bringing in 70-100,000 a year
[16:13] <jay> so if eddie van halen plays guitar with the pick upside-down and patents it i could be sued to doing the same on stage
[16:14] <jay> that serves the legal system and the establishment
[16:14] <jay> makes them lots of money
[16:14] <iip_i2p> <mule> R3dboard: you're right, it serves the community of patent lawyers - that's the public :)
[16:14] <jay> but does nothing for Eddie and me
[16:14] <Redb3ard> eddie van halen worked hard to invent the non-obvious upside down pick method
[16:14] <jay> Redb3ard: now in know you're kidding :)
[16:14] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-240-161.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[16:14] <jay> in=I
[16:15] <iip_i2p> <mule> sanity, you're back?
[16:15] <Redb3ard> haha
[16:15] <Redb3ard> thought you recognized the valenti quote
[16:15] <jay> Redb3ard: i thought you were serious for a minute
[16:15] <Redb3ard> maybe i got it wrong
[16:15] <Redb3ard> ;)
[16:15] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-239-208.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[16:15] <jay> Redb3ard: nah didn't get the reference
[16:15] <Redb3ard> you know, regular joes earning $70,000+ a year (in 1981 no less!)
[16:15] <jay> hah
[16:16] <Redb3ard> thats a man id like to see burn in hell
[16:16] <jay> now eddie patented his 5150 amp but that's different
[16:16] <Redb3ard> satan could earn a fuckload of PPV money, televising jack's eternal damnation
[16:17] <jay> well satan doesn't want out money
[16:17] <Redb3ard> yeh he does
[16:17] <Redb3ard> oh wait, thats the federal gov
[16:17] <Redb3ard> i keep getting them confused
[16:17] <jay> heh
[16:17] <jay> they're on the same team i think
[16:17] <jay> the gimme gimme team
[16:17] <Redb3ard> yeh, but whose the junior partner?
[16:18] <Redb3ard> and think about it, before you answer
[16:18] <jay> he hasn't manifested himself yet
[16:18] <iip_i2p> <mule> sanity, do you think it is a risk for a host if it's fproxy port is made publicly available? do you think it can be used to compromise the host?
[16:18] <jay> Redb3ard: heh
[16:18] <Redb3ard> mule, from a "he rooted my box" perspective?
[16:18] <Redb3ard> or security from a "he just rooted all of freenet!" perspective
[16:19] <iip_i2p> <mule> yes, that perspective
[16:19] <iip_i2p> <mule> the he rooted my host perspective
[16:19] * jay kicks the mule
[16:20] <jay> mule: oh sorry
[16:20] <jay> heh
[16:20] <iip_i2p> <mule> jay, that's why i selected that nick :)
[16:21] <jay> too bad i dont have ops
[16:22] <jay> i haven't kicked someone from irc in years'
[16:22] <jay> since efnet:#win2kwarez
[16:23] <iip_i2p> <mule> i decided to run a few services for i2p, and expected to be kicked for the services not working.
[16:23] <Redb3ard> generally, there are exploitable bugs in most all software
[16:23] <Redb3ard> even the good stuff... just has less of it
[16:23] <Redb3ard> however, this is the one case where i might give it a clean bill of health
[16:23] <Redb3ard> the software is java, and its stood up to just about everything
[16:23] <Redb3ard> trying to think of anything else... but its not like inetd is spawning it
[16:23] <Redb3ard> so im pretty sure they couldnt wedge the port open to do more, so to speak
[16:23] <iip_i2p> <mule> one of the services is fproxy access over i2p to one of my boxes, and that's the reason for my question.
[16:24] <Redb3ard> oh
[16:25] * cehteh (foobar@cehteh.homeunix.org) has joined #freenet
[16:26] <Redb3ard> fproxy isnt some freenet doodad?
[16:26] <jay> it is
[16:27] <Redb3ard> it should be safe
[16:29] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-205-193.clvdoh.adelphia.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[16:31] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-205-193.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #freenet
[16:32] <iip_i2p> <mule> redb3ard: my concern is that it has file access, for example to store retrieved splitfiles. so it can access the environment of the process.
[16:32] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
[16:45] <Redb3ard> java vm has alot of safeguards
[16:45] <Redb3ard> they wont be able to leverage it to read other files, or write their own, i wouldnt think
[17:07] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[17:17] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[17:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[17:21] * |ux (~|ux@82-37-17-24.cable.ubr03.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[17:22] <|ux> " Experimental unstable" << that sounds bad
[17:22] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[17:23] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[17:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[17:28] <Iakin5> [18:36] <toad__> Iakin: re the 450000 thingy... show me the full stack trace
[17:28] <Iakin5> [18:36] <toad__> i need the next level to check a theory
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.SlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.<init>(SlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.java:158)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.OptimizingSlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.<init>(OptimizingSlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimator.java:27)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.OptimizingSlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimatorFactory.createTime(OptimizingSlidingBucketsKeyspaceEstimatorFactory.java:82)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.StandardNodeEstimator.<init>(StandardNodeEstimator.java:564)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.StandardNodeEstimatorFactory.create(StandardNodeEstimatorFactory.java:95)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.NGRoutingTable.loadEstimators(NGRoutingTable.java:356)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.rt.NGRoutingTable.<init>(NGRoutingTable.java:321)
[17:28] <Iakin5> at freenet.node.Main.main(Main.java:783)
[17:29] <Iakin5> It is during startup..
[17:29] <Iakin> [18:36] <toad__> Iakin: I fixed the bug, or one of the bugs, that caused those timeouts
[17:29] <Iakin> [18:37] <toad__> hopefully when 60197 is more widespread they will happen less often...
[17:30] <Iakin> Is there a good explanation for why it affects mostly exactly one full segment
[17:30] <Iakin> ..or segment boundaries or whatever..
[17:33] <Iakin> [18:50] <toad__> ooooh
[17:33] <Iakin> [18:50] <toad__> it DIDNT get cached...
[17:33] <Iakin> [18:51] <toad__> it happened to work the next time... but it didn't get cached !
[17:33] <Iakin> Hmmmmm?
[17:55] * |ux (~|ux@82-37-17-24.cable.ubr03.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving")
[18:01] <toad__> <Brutha-> how long does it work till a node "can route requests effectively" - it depends. 24 hours should be a good start though...
[18:02] <toad__> <Redb3ard> the listen port... is my transient node broadcasting tht to other nodes? - yes
[18:03] <toad__> <Redb3ard> if you arent firewalled, you should be - perhaps but it makes our job a bit more irritating due to not being able to automatically forward the port...
[18:04] <toad__> <greycat> an openbsd box with two NICs is a router. a cisco is an overpriced plastic/metal piece of crap with a proprietary OS - LOL!
[18:05] <toad__> <Redb3ard> linksys doesnt deserve the "barely" - the WRT54G's are really nice actually
[18:07] <toad__> All this is rather academic however as Freenet doesn't actually work, and probably never will. But it is nice to see how easy it is to score +5 here by sprouting uninformed nonsense nowadays.
[18:07] <toad__> LOL
[18:07] <toad__> from http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=116948&cid=9897287 (from hobx)
[18:08] * Kyon (~Kyon@ip134-053-121-103.s121.muohio.edu) has joined #freenet
[18:10] <toad__> <Redb3ard> #1 the statistical claim wouldnt hold up in a court strong nation - it will in a civil case, and it may in a criminal case, if you have a strong correlation e.g. from fetching a 1000-chunk splitfile
[18:10] <hobx> me wonders what he wrote that amused toad
[18:11] * interrupt (~chatzilla@64.122.23.213) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.64f [Mozilla rv:1.7/20040707]")
[18:11] <toad__> <Redb3ard> jay, never thought of the IRS
[18:11] <toad__> <jay> Redb3ard: that's who im afraid of
[18:11] <toad__> LOL
[18:12] <jay> ph33r d3m
[18:12] <jay> toad__: ive been configuring mutt for the past 2 days
[18:12] <jay> so i never need to do it again
[18:13] <jay> pheer my .muttrc
[18:18] <toad__> <iip_i2p> <mule> sanity, do you think it is a risk for a host if it's fproxy port is made publicly available? do you think it can be used to compromise the host? - it can be a problem if you don't set it up right
[18:19] * Brutha- (~x@pD9E100CD.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[18:19] <toad__> <Redb3ard> java vm has alot of safeguards
[18:19] <toad__> <Redb3ard> they wont be able to leverage it to read other files, or write their own, i wouldnt think
[18:20] <toad__> wrong
[18:20] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-239-208.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:20] <toad__> that applies for applets only
[18:21] <iip_i2p> <mule> toad_, that's my concern also. what ways could you think of to compromise a host through the fproxy port? guess it's not as robust as the freenet network port.
[18:22] <toad__> mule: set publicNode=true
[18:22] <toad__> that should eliminate most possible problems
[18:22] <toad__> apart from that, run it in its own user, possibly chrooted etc
[18:22] <toad__> now, this CofEBug...
[18:25] <iip_i2p> <mule> toad_, thanks for hint with publicNode. just done.
[18:26] <iip_i2p> <mule> it is it's own user. any way to disable changing bookmarks? chroot to be considered.
[18:26] <iip_i2p> <mule> anything else?
[18:26] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[18:26] <iip_i2p> <mule> was CofEBug also related to me?
[18:28] <toad__> mule: publicNode will prevent changing bookmarks won't it?
[18:28] <toad__> no, CofEBug is a bug reported by CofE
[18:33] <iip_i2p> <mule> yes, thanks, tells me it can not update bookmarks now
[18:38] * |UK-Monster| (~bbtt@cpc2-warr1-5-0-cust27.bagu.cable.ntl.com) has joined #freenet
[18:38] * |UK-Monster| grr
[18:38] * salahx (salahx@sc1-24.217.174.147.charter-stl.com) has joined #freenet
[18:38] * |UK-Monster| is now known as leexgx
[18:38] <leexgx> boo
[18:39] <salahx> TH'at quest RBF's
[18:39] <salahx> err RNF'd
[18:39] <leexgx> ??
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60193 13
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60194 36
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60196 1
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60197 6
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60198 3
[18:39] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60199 49
[18:40] <leexgx> Fred,0.6,1.51,60200 5
[18:40] <salahx> The "boo" I meam :)
[18:40] <salahx> there a 60200 now ?
[18:40] <leexgx> no
[18:40] <leexgx> nor there is 199 as well
[18:40] <leexgx> unless thay made an updated test ver
[18:41] <salahx> there is a 199
[18:41] <leexgx> where
[18:41] <salahx> As I ma running it now :)
[18:41] <salahx> I got the latest freenet-unstable.jar
[18:41] <leexgx> hmm
[18:41] <leexgx> but the date has not chaged
[18:42] <salahx> the date's can't be trusted
[18:42] <leexgx> still 19 aug
[18:42] <leexgx> k redownloading stuff then
[18:42] <leexgx> 16
[18:42] <leexgx> aug
[18:44] <leexgx> heh
[18:44] <leexgx> its 199
[18:45] <leexgx> toad__ must be testing 200 (or some one is)
[18:45] <leexgx> there are 4 of them tho
[18:46] <salahx> yep
[18:46] <verl> it's in cvs, see http://news.gmane.org/gmane.network.freenet.cvs
[18:46] * lexx-ZZzz (~bbtt@cpc2-warr1-5-0-cust27.bagu.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[18:47] <leexgx> ??
[18:48] <leexgx> heh
[18:48] <jay> cvs version is60154
[18:49] <leexgx> and cvs ant for me to read any way bit more to read then i want
[18:50] <jay> i bet all the email on monday i lost had something to do with this
[18:52] <jay> nah 60200 is the version in cvs head
[18:53] <jay> 60154 is lastGoodBuild
[18:54] <jay> bbl
[18:54] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (".")
[19:00] * lostlogic_ (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) has joined #freenet
[19:02] <salahx> have seen 60200 in cVS yet
[19:04] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aao124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:05] <salahx> ok, I see in CVS now
[19:10] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-205-193.clvdoh.adelphia.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:12] * lostlogic_ (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[19:12] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit (K-lined)
[19:13] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aao124.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[19:29] <toad__> hmmm
[19:29] <toad__> everything seems correct so far...
[19:29] <toad__> of course i've only seen the activelink...
[19:34] <KenMan> interesting, for past 10 hours, my node took in 16660 queries and put out 32878 total queries
[19:36] <KenMan> for some reason, i expected them to be fairly equal... now, unique requests in and out *are* about the same. This is confusing me...
[19:37] <KenMan> I am uncertain whether routingSuccessRatio includes messages which "could not even make it off my node" - i expect it does. 16656 unique Q in, 14615 unique Q out...
[19:38] <KenMan> this small difference would be accounted for by successes and expirations , i expect
[19:42] <KenMan> there were 7514 events of "couldn't get off the node" in the same time period... some were retries and some were original first attempts.
[19:43] <KenMan> i want to count the number of incoming requests that didn't HTL-expire and NEVER got routed out even once...
[19:44] <KenMan> but i don't have the proper data captured :(
[19:46] * KenMan goes off to buy a blackboard, so that he can return to one when he needs to...
[19:53] * kers (~kers@225.ppp135.rsd.worldonline.se) Quit ("Leaving")
[19:58] <KenMan> okay, what i think is this - either outboundAggregateRequests (32878) includes these 7514 or it doesn't. That is simple enough.
[19:58] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) has joined #freenet
[19:59] <rgm> hiya.
[19:59] <KenMan> hi rgm
[19:59] <rgm> i'd like to switch to unstable. what files should i delete?
[19:59] <salahx> just the files with "_" in them in seednodes.ref
[19:59] <salahx> err and seednodes.ref
[20:00] <rgm> cool.
[20:00] <KenMan> 'node' , '*_*' , change the listenPort in freenet.conf or freenet.ini , update seednodes.ref , and restart. Did I get it all ?
[20:00] <salahx> then, grab the seednodes.ref and freenet.jar for unstable
[20:00] <KenMan> ah, the jar :)
[20:00] <rgm> salahx: 'zat on the website?
[20:00] <salahx> otioanlly but recommended, change listenPort
[20:00] <salahx> I don't THINK so
[20:00] <rgm> otay
[20:01] <salahx> ahh, here it is: http://wikiserver.freenethelp.org:22222/HowToSwitchToUnstable
[20:01] <rgm> right now my listenPort is 19201
[20:01] <KenMan> is this on that wiki site ? it really should be...
[20:01] <KenMan> :)
[20:02] <rgm> oh, wiki, great.
[20:02] <rgm> i thought i remembered reading it somewhere
[20:04] <KenMan> that page forgot to mention deleting the 'node' and '*_*' files...
[20:05] <salahx> ficing it now :)
[20:05] <salahx> you domn;t to delete "node" though
[20:06] <KenMan> you are fixing it too ? :) okay, i will stop then.
[20:06] * Scooby (kdx-user@wau26701RN.rh.ncsu.edu) has joined #freenet
[20:06] * Jarod (~kdx@cpe-024-211-212-102.ec.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[20:07] <Jarod> scooby, you still using freenet?
[20:07] <KenMan> you don't have to delete node, but it is good to do for completeness - that way you create a different crypto key to be associated with the different listenPort.
[20:08] <KenMan> (and to be associated with the different .jar version / network)
[20:10] <salahx> ok, done
[20:12] * bluephile (bluephile@69-160-205-193.clvdoh.adelphia.net) has joined #freenet
[20:22] <rgm> worked great, thanks fellas.
[20:22] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:24] <salahx> yw
[20:25] <rgm> now, on to see if the naked pictures load quicker.
[20:25] <Jarod> probably of underage people
[20:25] <rgm> nah, sonax's stuff
[20:26] <rgm> mmm... twins...
[20:26] <Jarod> heh
[20:26] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[20:27] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) Quit ()
[20:27] * Redb3ard (~oylerj@c-24-125-12-101.va.client2.attbi.com) has joined #freenet
[20:28] <Redb3ard> toad, is it normal to have 100-200 freenet processes running (linux) ?
[20:31] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[20:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[20:37] <KenMan> Redboard: all things in moderation - except Freenet !
[20:38] * akataz (~akataz@ABordeaux-103-1-1-119.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #freenet
[20:39] <salahx> its really 100-200 threads
[20:40] <salahx> that's kinda high but tis normal to have "thread spikes" every so often
[20:41] * akataz (~akataz@ABordeaux-103-1-1-119.w193-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) has left #freenet
[20:44] <Redb3ard> whats more typical?
[20:45] <salahx> a few dozen
[20:47] <Redb3ard> i assume this is configurable in freenet.conf if id bother to look
[20:47] <Redb3ard> ?
[20:48] <salahx> yeah
[20:48] <salahx> unless you've for really high loads it not much to worry about
[20:48] <salahx> Most of the threads are idle anyway
[20:48] <salahx> Create threads is expensive, so the threads are pooled instead of contonous created/deleted
[20:48] <Redb3ard> well, it did really nail my cable modem
[20:49] <salahx> Tha'ts normal for Freenet for ANY number fo threads :)
[20:49] <toad__> hmmm odd
[20:49] <toad__> found a bug that resulted in us sending DataReply's multiple times
[20:49] <toad__> when a collision happens
[20:49] <Jarod> heh
[20:50] <Jarod> freenet hates me
[20:50] <Jarod> :(
[20:50] <Redb3ard> freenet hates everyone
[20:50] <toad__> :(
[20:50] <Redb3ard> its part of the protocol
[20:51] <Jarod> it hates some people more than others?
[20:51] <Jarod> it punishs and tortures
[20:51] <Redb3ard> jarod, how committed are you to making it work?
[20:52] <Jarod> if you say, open my ports, I can't do it
[20:52] <Jarod> toad sent me some new seeds
[20:52] <Jarod> I still only got 12 nodes max
[20:52] <Redb3ard> give it time
[20:52] <Jarod> that was after 8 hours
[20:52] <Jarod> heh
[20:52] <Redb3ard> 3 hours this morning, before i could get anything
[20:52] <Jarod> I finally had given up
[20:52] <salahx> well if you ca'nt tkae incoming connection it takes a lot longer to get more refs...
[20:53] <Redb3ard> just wondering how important freenet is to you
[20:53] <Jarod> hmm
[20:53] <Jarod> so if I run it for a week
[20:53] <Jarod> should that be enough time to have it work?
[20:53] <toad__> try 48 hours
[20:53] <salahx> sure
[20:53] <salahx> within 48 hours yoour RT should be fully populated
[20:53] <Jarod> hmm
[20:53] <Jarod> I hope you are right
[20:54] <Jarod> even if I am behind a firewall?
[20:54] <salahx> Yep
[20:54] <toad__> it should?
[20:54] <salahx> One of the nicer features added to Freenet is "bidirection" connection, so you can still send and recieve behind a firewall
[20:54] * toad__ hasn't tried recently...
[20:55] <Jarod> yeah
[20:55] <Jarod> but once you are connected
[20:55] <toad__> you can still be a useful node to other nodes on the network, when behind a firewall
[20:55] <Jarod> normal sockets allow bidirection
[20:55] <toad__> it will take longer to bootstrap though
[20:55] <Jarod> hmm
[20:55] <Jarod> if I leave it for 48 hours
[20:55] <Jarod> and don't touch it
[20:55] <toad__> you won't keep conns to other nodes unless they like you, you see...
[20:55] <Jarod> will things still work?
[20:56] <Jarod> ah
[20:56] <toad__> Jarod: hopefully
[20:56] <toad__> no guarantees :)
[20:56] <Jarod> so as my data store accumulates
[20:56] <Jarod> I will look better to other nodes?
[20:56] <toad__> yes, and as your routing gets better
[20:56] <toad__> and as you get more connections
[20:56] <salahx> if you have Frost, run it; it'll help
[20:57] <Jarod> heh
[21:00] * toad__ retesting for CofE bug
[21:00] <Jarod> how exactly does my node accumulate data, if I am not desired?
[21:00] <salahx> well currently "
[21:00] <Jarod> do a certain number of nodes accept my node, even if it doesn't have anything useful?
[21:00] <salahx> yes
[21:01] <salahx> therer's actually code in ther to handle "newbie" nodes so they actualyl have a chance of working themselves in
[21:01] <Jarod> ah
[21:01] <Jarod> but like bittorrent, things start out as a trickle
[21:01] <Jarod> and grow with time
[21:02] <salahx> Yep
[21:02] <Jarod> heh, ok
[21:02] <Jarod> I guess I'll just give it time
[21:02] <salahx> By the end of 48 hours, you shoud lbe gettign a call from tyou ISP ppolicy group asking you why you';re usign all the bandwidth :)
[21:02] <Jarod> ha, really?
[21:02] <salahx> naaah
[21:03] <Jarod> you're fucking with me, aren't you?
[21:03] <salahx> I'm exaggerating
[21:03] <Jarod> hehehe
[21:03] <Jarod> a flood of upstream of noah's ark proportions
[21:07] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) has joined #freenet
[21:07] <toad__> aaaaargh
[21:07] <toad__> it just jammed in the middle of the critical phase...
[21:12] <toad__> anyone get today's TFE yet?
[21:13] <salahx> not yet
[21:14] * Interrupt__ (~chatzilla@c-67-169-241-240.client.comcast.net) has joined #freenet
[21:18] * Interrupt__ (~chatzilla@c-67-169-241-240.client.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
[21:34] <KenMan> none of the active links loading here, on stable (5091 up 19 hours, 65 peers)
[21:39] * KenMan got two of three alinks - TFE, CofE, not YoYo . TFE - DNF , COfE worked, YoYoNoGo - DNF
[21:41] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) has joined #freenet
[21:42] <rgm> shouldn't topic say 60200?
[21:42] <salahx> The snapshots haven't been updated yet
[21:42] <rgm> oh, unless it means minimum 60197
[21:42] <rgm> ah
[21:43] * MrNaughty (MrNaughty@d198-166-55-147.abhsia.telus.net) Quit ("\(^_^)/' No Soliciting!!! Unless you have legs way, way up and really, really big tits....")
[21:44] * MrNaughty (MrNaughty@d198-166-55-147.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #freenet
[21:44] <KenMan> 5091 - sentData for 16 hours (915/1708)=54% , recvData for 16 hours (519/927)=56%
[21:45] <toad__> KenMan: hmmm
[21:45] <toad__> what about sentDataNonInserts ?
[21:47] <KenMan> that one is much better - 714/848=84% :)
[21:47] <toad__> some of the rest will be due to the bug i just fixed
[21:47] <toad__> well a few
[21:47] <toad__> some of the 16%
[21:48] * toad__ waits for node to search huge log file...
[21:48] <KenMan> excellent , all dead bugs are appreciated
[21:48] <toad__> 5.4GB...
[21:49] <KenMan> that kind of load certainly affects your node, no ? ;) well, i guess not, if it is mostly IO...
[21:49] <toad__> hmmm
[21:49] <toad__> 88% waiting...
[21:49] <toad__> probably because it's searching backwards, which is really bad for disk elevator and so on...
[21:50] * toad__ wonders if he should get some of the nice SCSI drives thomas is always talking about...
[21:50] <KenMan> a 10G solid-state drive, maybe ? in another year or two...
[21:51] <KenMan> do you get a nice speed boost from lvm (with striping?) ?
[21:51] <toad__> heh
[21:51] <toad__> 10G of RAM would be cheaper
[21:51] <toad__> yes, i stripe
[21:52] <KenMan> have you ever done "sequential, non-realistic reading bandwidth" tests ?
[21:52] <toad__> ~ 100 UKP for 10k cheetah, 36GB..
[21:52] <toad__> KenMan: I've done dd tests occasionally
[21:52] <toad__> they were reasonable
[21:52] <KenMan> what's 'reasonable' ? how many drives ?
[21:52] <toad__> 2 drives
[21:53] <toad__> 3 for some LVs
[21:53] <KenMan> over 50MB/s ?
[21:53] <toad__> yeahg
[21:53] <KenMan> ... over 100MB/s ?
[21:53] <toad__> no
[21:53] <toad__> not iirc
[21:54] <KenMan> does it approximately (~190%) double, or not really (~<=150%) ?
[21:54] <toad__> if it searches FORWARDS, it uses 88% CPU
[21:54] <toad__> definitely an elevator problem
[21:54] <KenMan> and are you using two speed-matched / identical drives ?
[21:55] <toad__> hmm, and falling... 40% now...
[21:55] <toad__> KenMan: no
[21:55] <toad__> 35%...
[21:56] <toad__> so 2 or 3 identical medium capacity fast 7200 rpm IDEs would be the obvious thing
[21:56] <toad__> problem is they'd have to be SATA
[21:56] <toad__> i suppose i could use a convertor...
[21:57] <toad__> woah
[21:57] <toad__> 60GB Maxtor DiamondMax+9 7200RPM SATA, 34.02 GBP
[21:58] <KenMan> drive makers are building very fast but not interstellar capacity (10-40G) drives as a new class / market these days, aren't they ?
[21:58] * KenMan doesn't keep up with all the latest hardware specs :(
[21:58] <toad__> KenMan: yes, those are the scsi monsters i referred to
[21:59] <KenMan> but aren't they also building 'equivalent' IDE versions ? i thought the consensus was that "CPU savings with SCSI" was virtually non-existent nowadays...
[22:00] <toad__> SCSI protocol is far superior to anything prior to SATA with NCQ
[22:00] <toad__> because of its approach to queueing
[22:00] * KenMan goes to skim www.storagereview.com for a brush-up
[22:00] <toad__> SATA/NCQ is only just coming onto the market
[22:02] <KenMan> hmmm, makes sense then. I never paid much attention to the SCSI vs IDE wars. I had SCSI disks 8 years ago... but things are rather different today, with ultra-fast-wide-beefy-tera SCSI flavors...
[22:02] <salahx> True, but I think by now the PCI bus bandwidth is the mlimiting factor
[22:03] <toad__> salahx: you don't use SCSI for bandwidth
[22:03] <toad__> you stripe a load of cheap SATA drives for bandwidth
[22:03] <toad__> you use SCSI for latency sensitive applications/stuff where you seek a lot
[22:03] <toad__> or stuff where you care about reliability
[22:04] <salahx> ahhh
[22:04] <salahx> well nowadays the stuff they use for drives is less reliable thna p[aper and pencil...
[22:05] <toad__> KenMan: it looks like the format wars are coming to a close. Sources tell me SAS will be standard on mobos in 2005-2006
[22:05] <toad__> not necessarily reliable sources, but still... :)
[22:05] <salahx> SAS ?
[22:06] <toad__> also they tell me that you can network over it at 600MB/sec...
[22:06] <toad__> salahx: serial attached SCSI
[22:06] <salahx> ahhh
[22:06] <toad__> SCSI over an SATA connector
[22:06] <salahx> ok
[22:06] <toad__> at 600MB/sec or so
[22:06] <salahx> nice
[22:06] <salahx> I thought Firewaire was essentially serial SCSI Though ?
[22:06] <toad__> controllers expected to be dual mode
[22:07] <toad__> salahx: then why is it only 50MB/sec??
[22:07] <salahx> there making a new reviosnin which is 800MB/sec
[22:07] <toad__> well, SAS is where it's at, realistically
[22:08] <toad__> firewire was only ever used for "cool stuff"
[22:08] <salahx> like iPods :)
[22:08] <toad__> right
[22:08] <toad__> stuff you'd use USB for if it didn't suck
[22:22] <KenMan> all the highest throughput models on storagereview are either SCSI or SATA 10k or 15k models - 80MB/s by a Fujitsu 74GB Ultra320-SCSI !!
[22:22] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[22:22] <toad__> KenMan: bandwidth isn't everything
[22:23] <KenMan> not that sequential throughput means everything...
[22:23] <KenMan> :)
[22:23] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[22:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[22:23] <toad__> but of course the fastest ones are scsi 15k's
[22:23] <toad__> and 10k's
[22:24] <Jarod> whoo hoo
[22:24] <Jarod> I have 23 connections
[22:33] <salahx> see? There coming in
[22:36] <Jarod> yeah
[22:47] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) Quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[22:47] * goatee_ (~goatee@ip216-239-83-248.vif.net) Quit (niven.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
[22:47] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) has joined #freenet
[22:47] * goatee_ (~goatee@ip216-239-83-248.vif.net) has joined #freenet
[22:48] <toad__> okay, that was fun
[22:49] <toad__> bbl zzz
[23:29] <Jarod> ha
[23:29] <Jarod> 26 connections
[23:38] * oierw` (mathew@cpe-69-75-112-240.hawaii.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[23:46] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[23:47] * Malditus (~malditus@206.135.38.243) has joined #freenet
[23:57] * oierw (mathew@cpe-69-75-112-240.hawaii.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[23:59] <Malditus> What is the current average time before a node becomes integrated?
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.