Timestamps are in GMT/BST.
[0:00] <Addos> damn, this is painful
[0:00] <FKruger> and vm is running short?
[0:00] <Addos> nah, I set the heap to 32mb, only using 11mb
[0:00] <Addos> but, until this is addressed, using freenet seems pretty pointless
[0:00] <Addos> this is unbearable
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[0:01] <Addos> I mean, neat idea in theory, but far from ideal
[0:02] <FKruger> freenet is only 1 mb but javaw is 45mb
[0:02] <Addos> freenet was eating 11mb of my memory
[0:02] <Addos> then again, java overhead isn't that bad
[0:02] <FKruger> javaw is now 60
[0:03] <Addos> I like java as a language
[0:03] <Addos> the only thing I hate about it, is how it handles events
[0:04] <FKruger> but freenet needs the java, don't know why exept easy to program
[0:05] <FKruger> java is a memery hog
[0:05] <Addos> portability is the closest thing I can imagine
[0:05] <Addos> java isn't that bad
[0:05] <FKruger> it is a virual system
[0:05] <Addos> yep
[0:06] <FKruger> and it can make a 256 mb system go to its knees
[0:06] <Addos> so can a C/C++ program
[0:07] <Addos> so can most any VM
[0:07] <FKruger> c++ not a vm
[0:07] <Addos> no it isn't, but why stop at only VM's?
[0:07] <Addos> look at doom3, you think java can bring a system to its knees, try running doom3
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[2:33] <mazzanet> " A confidential paper from the left-wing think tank the Australia Institute, which is now being considered by the Opposition Leader's office, proposes that ISPs install compulsory filtering programs so only adults who can verify their age could view X-rated material."
[2:33] <mazzanet> "ALL internet service providers would be forced to block hard-core pornography reaching home computers under a radical plan to protect children being pushed by federal Labor MPs." " Labor's communications spokesman Lindsay Tanner, leading ALP women including Carmen Lawrence, and pro-family values backbench MPs are in favour of a tough new regime that would shield children from online porn."
[2:33] <mazzanet> WTF
[2:33] <mazzanet> welcome to the world of far-fetched, unpractical ideas
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[6:16] <joltrush1oon> how's the new stable network going?
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[6:23] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> joltrush1oon: Compared to what? For me it is working quite well, but so was 5084...
[6:30] <joltrush1oon> ok
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[8:44] <Ol^li> hi
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[9:07] <toad__> hi ppl
[9:07] * toad__ hmmm
[9:07] <toad__> CofE's bug report is strange..
[9:09] * toad__ looks at logs before restarting nodes
[9:09] <toad__> btw hi ppl
[9:10] <Ol^li> i did a update of freenet to 5091 and there the same "no route found" errors
[9:10] <Ol^li> did anyone have the same experiences?
[9:11] <toad__> Ol^li: hi
[9:11] <toad__> Ol^li: can you show me the detail of the message?
[9:12] <Ol^li> you want a line out of freenet.log?
[9:13] <Ol^li> 16.08.2004 15:30:38 (freenet.node.http.DistributionServlet$DistributionRequest, YThread-0, NORMAL): RouteNotFound Fetching (running) freenet:CHK@ix0Z0wFt5jfWFGmbIZaLud~VOIsPAwI,2MBdgGPT57XMzl0AxpSKyA as R
[9:13] <Ol^li> EADME for DistributionServlet
[9:13] <Ol^li> thats my last line
[9:13] <toad__> Ol^li: expected
[9:13] <toad__> Ol^li: what happens when you request files?
[9:14] <Ol^li> the message "Couldn't connect to the network. Are you sure you have configured Freenet correctly? Also make sure that you are connected to the internet.
[9:14] <Ol^li> Retrying..." is printed by freenet
[9:15] <toad__> Ol^li: okay, go to the Web Interface page and click Advanced mode
[9:15] <toad__> then try again
[9:16] <Ol^li> Hops To Live: 15
[9:16] <Ol^li> Error: Route Not Found
[9:16] <Ol^li> * 0 were totally unreachable.
[9:16] <Ol^li> * 0 restarted.
[9:16] <Ol^li> * 0 cleanly rejected.
[9:16] <Ol^li> * 0 backed off.
[9:16] <Ol^li> but the whole internet is "open"
[9:16] <Ol^li> iam behind my openbsd router and for the internal network it is allowed to connect anything on any port
[9:17] <toad__> okay
[9:17] <toad__> how exactly did you update, and from what build?
[9:18] <Ol^li> bevore that i used unstable
[9:18] <Ol^li> this works a little bit better
[9:18] <Ol^li> i use the update script to update
[9:18] <toad__> okay
[9:18] <toad__> can you send me the update script?
[9:18] <Ol^li> oh you bring me to an idea
[9:19] <toad__> the problem is simply that you need to reseed when going from 5088 or earlier to 5089 and later
[9:19] <Ol^li> should i use http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/freenet-latest.jar
[9:19] <toad__> however, the update script should update seednodes.ref, and touch it back into the neolithic, and then the node should realize it has no refs or no incoming conns and reseed anyway
[9:20] <toad__> Ol^li: did you manually save the jar or something? that script is for unstable
[9:20] <toad__> actually no, it's the unstable script that's been hacked up to get the stable jar... but still get the unstable seednodes :)
[9:20] <Ol^li> hm no
[9:20] <toad__> change it to seednodes.ref.bz2
[9:21] <Ol^li> ok
[9:22] <Ol^li> .oO( maybe i should seperate my unstable tests in a seperate directory )
[9:24] <Ol^li> there are a lot of java exeptions in the log but it seems that freenet is searching some content
[9:24] <Ol^li> it looks good
[9:29] <Ol^li> the bookmarks will not loadet
[9:30] <Ol^li> is this bad if freenet gives an exeption with the name debug?
[9:47] <toad__> not generally
[9:47] <toad__> if something says ERROR, that's bad
[9:47] <toad__> NORMAL is bad if you get tons of them
[9:47] <toad__> but some of those just happen
[9:48] <Ol^li> freenet.node.rt.EstimatorFormatException: No point 0 <- this comes often
[9:52] <Ol^li> hm it seem that frost is the best way for freenet to learn
[9:52] <toad__> that is pretty annoying
[9:52] <toad__> Ol^li: perhaps, although frost also has the effect of DoS'ing nodes...
[9:53] * twistx (~aaaa@68-235-175-191.chvlva.adelphia.net) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[9:55] <Ol^li> hm what is the better way to force that freenet learn
[9:55] <toad__> run frost for the time being
[9:56] <toad__> frost's DoS effect on nodes is something that is probably partly a problem with the node, which I will fix eventually
[9:56] <toad__> but be warned that it does reduce your anonymity by making the node accept fewer external requests
[10:05] <toad__> hmmm
[10:05] <toad__> possible bug in message sending code...
[10:06] <toad__> ahaa...
[10:06] * toad__ is increasingly sure...
[10:07] <toad__> this trailer chunk only got send _when an Accepted was queued_!
[10:07] * thelema|away is now known as thelema
[10:08] <thelema> hi all
[10:08] <toad__> hi thelema
[10:08] * toad__ is hunting bigbug...
[10:08] <thelema> The ugly xfer-killing bug?
[10:08] <toad__> yup
[10:09] <toad__> hmmm
[10:09] <toad__> perhaps a race condition...
[10:11] <toad__> aha
[10:11] <toad__> definitely a race condition...
[10:21] <toad__> so..
[10:21] <toad__> MCH gets the callback that it's completed a packet send
[10:21] <toad__> simultaneously, a message is queued on the PH
[10:21] <toad__> the PH sees that the MCH is busy
[10:22] <toad__> the MCH sees that there is nothing queued
[10:22] <toad__> the PH queues the message
[10:22] <toad__> the MCH goes to sleep
[10:22] <toad__> the message never gets sent
[10:23] <thelema> 120 seconds later a warning gets issued and that's it?
[10:23] <thelema> n/m.
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[10:25] <toad__> hmmm
[10:25] <toad__> PH sees that MCH is busy...
[10:25] <toad__> then the first block in jobDone is completed, and MCH becomes un-busy
[10:26] <toad__> then MCH calls getPacket
[10:26] <toad__> which returns null
[10:26] <toad__> then PH queues the packet
[10:26] <toad__> hmmm
[10:26] <toad__> brb
[10:29] <toad__> okay so...
[10:29] <toad__> if we do:
[10:29] <toad__> PH sees the MCH is busy
[10:29] <toad__> MCH enters jobDone
[10:29] <toad__> MCH sets flag on PH resetGetPacket
[10:30] <toad__> MCH sets MCH not busy
[10:30] <toad__> MCH calls PH.getPacket
[10:30] <toad__> which returns null
[10:30] <toad__> PH sees the flag and re-runs innerSendMessageAsync, rather than queueing?
[10:31] <toad__> are volatiles reliable? it'd need to be volatile... or would it? probably not...
[10:36] <thelema> volatiles are reasonably reliable, but they're not a substitute for real synchronization.
[10:37] <toad__> hmmm
[10:37] <toad__> here's a question...
[10:37] <toad__> why didn't the keepalive sender send the message after 1 minute?
[10:38] <thelema> good questin.
[10:39] <toad__> thelema: real synchronization is a PITA because it usually leads to nested locks and deadlocks
[10:39] <toad__> thus it's easier to minimize locking...
[10:42] <toad__> ah, i see
[10:42] * toad__ fixed that too
[10:42] <toad__> that should prevent queue times going over ~ 1 minute...
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[10:46] <toad__> thelema: does this sound sensible?
[10:46] <toad__> can you see any other possible races?
[10:46] <toad__> as far as i can see, if it's the other way around it will just work...
[10:46] <toad__> i..e.
[10:47] <toad__> if the MCH.jobDone is entered first...
[10:47] <thelema> Sorry, I'm not really able to look for races right now.
[10:48] <thelema> but from what you've told me, resetGetPacket should work.
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[10:48] <toad__> good, just wanted a logic check really
[10:48] <thelema> the best thing is to make sure the keepalive flushes queues.
[10:53] * toad__ has done that
[10:55] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) has joined #freenet
[10:55] * toad__ restarts unstable node with those fixes...
[10:55] <toad__> maybe this will help..
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[11:23] <thelema> toad__: shouldn't we log protocol peculiarities? (like DNF in AWSD)
[11:25] <Ol^li> cu
[11:25] * Ol^li (ident@pD9E44AE6.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ("shizzle ma nizzle")
[11:25] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:25] <thelema> 10000kb divided by 100kb a transport = 100 transfers an hour
[11:25] <thelema>
[11:25] <thelema> 100 transfers x 1000/10 = 10000 requests an hour physical limit
[11:25] <thelema>
[11:25] <thelema> if i connect to 10 nodes every node gets 1000req/h
[11:25] <thelema>
[11:25] <thelema> if i connect to 50 nodes every node gets 200req/h
[11:25] <thelema>
[11:25] <thelema> if i connect to 200 nodes every node gets 50req/h
[11:25] <thelema> Hmm, this seems like a good argument *for* fewer node connetcions
[11:26] <toad__> huh?
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[11:31] <thelema> it's partially *because* we connect to so many nodes that we have such high mRIs
[11:31] <thelema> our load per node goes down the more nodes we're connected to.
[11:31] * Addos (~addos@cpe-024-211-212-102.ec.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[11:32] <Addos> when freenet says couldn't retrieve key, and it is retrying
[11:32] <Addos> should I just leave the window open till it succeeds?
[11:32] <toad__> thelema: the problem is that a single node that reduces its # conns will be at a major disadvantage as far as backoff goes
[11:32] <toad__> Addos: yes
[11:32] <toad__> Addos: uptime of node?
[11:33] <toad__> Addos: also you may want to go to Advanced mode on the web interface
[11:33] <toad__> Couldn't retrieve key might be RNF or it might be DNF... not sure
[11:33] * toad__ changes topic to 'Upgrade to 5091 (5089: mandatory reset, 5090: RNF bug fixed!) | Unstable: Upgrade to 60197 | Experimental unstable test fork terminated | Logs: http://newton.matcmp.ncc.edu/~lockej/freenet/chanlog/ | #freenet-politics and #freenet-chat are available for offtopic discussions'
[11:33] * toad__ updates snapshots for 60197...
[11:34] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:34] <Addos> toad: the node was up all night
[11:34] <Addos> but I restarted it this morning
[11:34] <Addos> it says Couldn't connect to the network. Are you sure you have configured Freenet correctly? Also make sure that you are connected to the internet.
[11:34] <Addos> Retrying...
[11:34] <toad__> okay, that's an RNF :(
[11:34] <toad__> it happens...
[11:35] <toad__> how many connections do you have?
[11:35] <thelema> toad__: so drop the # conns globally.
[11:35] <toad__> go to advanced mode will give more data...
[11:35] <Addos> 10 connections
[11:35] <Addos> 9 active transfers
[11:35] <toad__> thelema: you also have to consider the effect on routing
[11:35] <toad__> thelema: but with queueing, perhaps a smaller number of conns may be appropriate
[11:35] <toad__> Addos: 10 conns is the reason for the RNF
[11:36] <toad__> 10 conns is quite low
[11:36] <toad__> very low
[11:36] <toad__> very very low!
[11:36] <toad__> brb
[11:36] <thelema> toad__: I'm not advocating 10.
[11:36] <Addos> I am seeing data transferred at least
[11:36] <thelema> toad__: 30 seems better than 120
[11:36] <Addos> well, I really don't have much control over how many are open
[11:36] <Addos> 10 is what it is telling me
[11:37] <Addos> I don't know of any manual way to just force freenet to connect to another node
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[11:40] <toad__> Addos
[11:40] <Addos> hey
[11:40] <toad__> Addos: how many did it have before you restarted?
[11:40] <Addos> 35
[11:40] * toad__ needs wider testing of 60197, wants to merge the code changes in that build to stable ASAP
[11:40] <Addos> at least
[11:40] <toad__> Addos: well, how long ago was the restart?
[11:40] <thelema> toad__: could we try few connections on unstable?
[11:40] <toad__> it will open more conns with time...
[11:40] <toad__> thelema: only with a reset
[11:41] <toad__> thelema: with stable, and perhaps with unstable too, you have to worry about old config files with everything forced
[11:41] * TLF (francisco@75.Red-81-40-116.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[11:41] <Addos> someone ought to write a script that shuffles the seed nodes and randomly selects a bunch to send out
[11:41] <thelema> the next time we reset, then.
[11:42] <toad__> perhaps
[11:42] <toad__> maybe we try it after queueing
[11:42] <toad__> but first, i need to merge the 60197 race fixes to stable
[11:42] <thelema> test them!
[11:42] <toad__> therefore I need lots of testing done on unstable 60197 :)
[11:42] <joltrush1oon> has queueing been tried at all yet?
[11:42] <thelema> good.
[11:42] * thelema is making sure you're not merging untested code
[11:42] <toad__> joltrush1oon: I haven't started yet
[11:43] <toad__> although I've pretty much specced it out
[11:43] <toad__> I don't want to start on it until after the 60197 bugfixes have been merged
[11:43] <toad__> and I'd prefer there was some testing of them first
[11:43] -NickServ- This nickname is owned by someone else
[11:43] -NickServ- If this is your nickname, type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password>
[11:43] <Addos> has freenet ever reached a point where most active content on the main page just loads up and the majority of links work?
[11:43] * thelema wonders if there's an mRI goal we should set...
[11:44] <thelema> Addos: yes.
[11:44] <Addos> hmm, it sure doesn't do that here
[11:44] <thelema> Addos: 5084 was like that for mature nodes.
[11:44] <Addos> how long did it take for it to reach that stability?
[11:44] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:44] <Addos> a few days, weeks, months?
[11:44] <thelema> days
[11:44] <Addos> hmm
[11:44] <toad__> there have always been sucky nodes...
[11:45] <Addos> it doesn't seem like any amount of waiting is helping. because for me some things that used to work now are broke
[11:45] <toad__> even in 5084
[11:45] <toad__> Addos: what do you mean?
[11:45] <Addos> it could be because I am transient, but I really don't have a lot of choice in the matter
[11:45] <Addos> hmm, well earlier
[11:45] <Addos> I had graphics for some things on the main page
[11:45] <Addos> now the graphics don't load
[11:45] <toad__> well, i've got news for you: transient is irrelevant, it's pretty much ignored nowadays
[11:46] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) has joined #freenet
[11:46] <toad__> Addos: you sure you're on stable, with valid nodes? SOME things DO load?
[11:46] <Addos> links that once worked, now won't pull up
[11:46] <Addos> yes, some things do load
[11:46] <Addos> probably purely from my cache
[11:46] <toad__> Addos: what do you mean? e.g. if something is a DBR it might well work one day but not the next
[11:46] <Addos> btw, is there a way to force a node to try pulling a site again, instead of from the local cache?
[11:46] <toad__> Addos: yes, but it won't say not found from the local cache
[11:47] <toad__> it'll try it if it can't find it
[11:47] <Addos> hmm, yeah, but if it can find it in the local cache, how do I know I have the latest version?
[11:47] <toad__> Addos: are you getting lots of Route Not Found errors?
[11:47] <Addos> yes, but only on secondary and tertiary pages for the most part
[11:47] <Addos> the pages I start with in freenet seem to be fairly complete
[11:48] <Addos> minus a few links or broken images here or there
[11:48] <toad__> well, low conns => lots of RNFs
[11:48] <Addos> hmm
[11:48] <toad__> that is inevitable
[11:48] <Addos> I still have 10
[11:48] <Addos> wtf
[11:48] <thelema> toad__: not enough mRI => lots of RNFs
[11:48] * Addos pounds head on desk
[11:48] <toad__> show me from http://127.0.0.1:8888/servlet/nodeinfo/networking/ocm
[11:48] <toad__> ?
[11:48] <toad__> thelema: eh?
[11:48] <Addos> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 10 (0/10/200)
[11:48] <Addos> Transfers active (Transmitting/Receiving) 10 (0/10)
[11:48] <Addos> Data waiting to be transferred None
[11:48] <Addos> Total amount of data transferred 1,955 KiB
[11:48] <thelema> Addos: at the moment, you need 100+ connections to get enough mRI to make a reasonable load of requests.
[11:49] <toad__> thelema: not true, I'm getting mostly DNFs
[11:49] <toad__> and I only have 48
[11:49] <Addos> yeah, for one reason or another, the 28mb seednodes.ref isn't giving me that kind of connection
[11:49] <toad__> thelema: we also have to worry about connection flux
[11:49] <toad__> Addos: you reseeded?
[11:49] <thelema> toad__: really? Well then we could/should drop connections to 50
[11:49] <toad__> Addos: uptime?
[11:49] <toad__> thelema: max conns = 50 => actual conns = 20 :(
[11:50] <Addos> 20 minutes
[11:50] <thelema> toad__: 120 connections is too many.
[11:50] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:50] <toad__> thelema: what about new nodes? what about routing? and how on earth do you decrease such a setting anyway? rename it?
[11:50] <Addos> so you mean, each time I restart the node, it is going to take significant amounts of time before it builds up enough connections to make decent requests?
[11:50] <thelema> toad__: actual conns = max conns * 0.4? I thought actual conns depended more on seeds
[11:50] <toad__> thelema: it's like the 0.3 HTL arms race
[11:50] <toad__> thelema: no, in practice, we never get the max conns, that's the point
[11:51] <toad__> Addos: if it's not a very popular node, sure
[11:51] <toad__> Addos: are you firewalled?
[11:51] <Addos> yes
[11:51] <thelema> why don't we get max conns? room for newbies?
[11:51] <Addos> which means I will never be popular
[11:51] <toad__> you have no incoming connections...
[11:51] <Addos> correct
[11:51] <toad__> Addos: you can't forward the port?
[11:51] <Addos> which is why I am transient
[11:51] <Addos> nope, I can't
[11:51] <Addos> :(
[11:51] <toad__> well, you may serve the network a bit but you'll never be that popular then
[11:52] <toad__> thelema: I'm not sure exactly...
[11:52] <Addos> and if I am not that popular, I won't get decent connections to the network then either, I guess
[11:52] <toad__> Addos: well you might try reseeding
[11:52] <toad__> you may just have been unlucky
[11:52] <Addos> reseeding meaning what, shut down the node and restart?
[11:53] <toad__> 20 minutes is low though, come back in 2 hours, you'll have more conns
[11:53] <Addos> ok
[11:53] <Addos> heh
[11:53] <toad__> Addos: shut down, get new seednodes, restart
[11:53] <Addos> how often is seednoes.ref updated?
[11:53] <toad__> doesn't matter
[11:53] <toad__> if you reseed using the orig file it should work
[11:53] <Addos> hmm
[11:53] <toad__> it's just a matter of persuading the node to reseed
[11:54] <Addos> hmm, so what factors caused it to seed poorly this time, but not last time?
[11:54] <toad__> random chance
[11:54] <Addos> hmm
[11:54] <toad__> it picks a random load of nodes from the RT when reseeding
[11:55] * jayo (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[11:55] * moskau23 (~Miranda@dsl-213-023-254-221.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[11:56] <toad__> bbiab
[11:57] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) has joined #freenet
[11:57] <toad__> Addos: but I don't think that's it
[11:57] * jayo is now known as jay
[11:57] <toad__> because it didn't reseed on the restart anyway
[11:57] <Addos> exactly
[11:57] <toad__> it's just that it takes a while to establish conns on stable
[11:57] <Addos> at least not efficiently anyway
[11:57] <toad__> thelema: we could maybe try 100
[11:58] <Addos> woot! 11 connections
[11:58] <Addos> hehehe
[12:01] <thelema> toad__: how about 75? 100 isn't enough of a drop to really feel it.
[12:25] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3fab) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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[12:43] * TLF (francisco@75.Red-81-40-116.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc || Adi?s a todos y a todas y que les vaya bien.")
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[12:55] * sinner123 (~fg@p5080D3C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #Freenet
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[13:19] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (".")
[13:29] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) has joined #freenet
[13:29] <rgm> hi
[13:29] <rgm> I'm pretty sure that fcphosts is broken
[13:30] <rgm> I set some hosts in my freenet.ini file, restarted, and those hosts don't seem to be able to be allowed access
[13:30] <rgm> i used IPs too
[13:30] <greycat> show us the exact line
[13:31] <greycat> fcpHosts=127.0.0.1,192.168.2.0/24
[13:31] <rgm> fcpHosts=127.0.0.1,localhost,192.168.0.104,bass,smackles
[13:31] <greycat> maybe it's barfing on the hostnames and stops reading the line?
[13:32] <rgm> i guess i could try taking out the hostnames
[13:32] <rgm> restarting...
[13:33] <rgm> nope
[13:33] <rgm> i telnet to the host on port 8888 and the connection closes on my before i can issue a GET
[13:33] <greycat> does it log anything?
[13:34] <rgm> Aug 16, 2004 1:51:59 PM (freenet.MuxTrailerReadManager, Network reading thread, NORMAL): Unrecognized trailer ID: 11484 on freenet.PeerHandler@5a58e0
[13:34] <rgm> i don't think that's related tho
[13:34] <greycat> no, doesn't look like it
[13:35] <greycat> all I can say at this point is that last time I used this feature, it worked for me with the line I pasted earlier
[13:35] <greycat> I haven't tried it in quite some time
[13:35] <rgm> *nods*
[13:35] <rgm> well, maybe someone can verify that it is broken, and file a bug report?
[13:36] <greycat> "file a bug report" means tell Matthew Toseland (toad_)
[13:36] <rgm> hard to believe that everyone just uses localhost
[13:36] <rgm> oh
[13:38] * Hadaka (naked@naked.iki.fi) Quit ("leaving")
[13:40] <hirvox> rgm:fcpHosts is for clients only
[13:41] <hirvox> like frost, fuqid, fiw etc
[13:41] <greycat> ah, right. he said 8888, not 8481
[13:41] <hirvox> try mainport.allowedHosts, same syntax
[13:41] <greycat> mainport.allowedHosts=127.0.0.0/8,192.168.2.0/24
[13:42] * TLF (francisco@75.Red-81-40-116.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[13:46] <toad__> thelema: i think 75 would be too much, and we will need a reasonable number of conns for various reasons i've explained
[13:46] <toad__> thelema: also reducing it too far increases our vulnerability to slashdotting
[13:47] <toad__> <rgm> i telnet to the host on port 8888 and the connection closes on my before i can issue a GET - wrong port. fcpHosts is for FCP, which is on 8481, and used by e.g. Frost
[13:47] <toad__> you want mainport.allowedHosts=
[13:51] <toad__> is there any risk in viewing PDFs?
[13:51] <greycat> I trust xpdf more than acrobat, but I don't know of any specific exploits in either
[13:52] <hirvox> bugtraq gets acrobat exploits occassionally
[13:52] <iip_i2p> <oOo> They were exploits, should have been resolved by latest versions
[13:53] <iip_i2p> <lonelynerd> like DSA-222-1 xpdf -- integer overflow -- http://www.debian.org/security/2003/dsa-222
[13:53] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[13:53] <greycat> note the year... :)
[13:53] <toad__> hirvox: what about xpdf?
[13:54] <hirvox> dunno
[13:55] <iip_i2p> <oOo> Never heard of Vi exploits, use it instead ;)
[13:55] <toad__> oOo: not very useful if somebody sends you a PDF
[13:56] <toad__> also I suspect there ARE vim exploits :)
[13:57] <thelema> toad__: the right way to deal with /. is to rotate seeds.
[13:58] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[13:59] <toad__> thelema: why does that make any difference? what's the difference between a file of 600 nodes which nodes choose random peers from and a file of 600 peers where a CGI script chooses random peers?
[13:59] <greycat> the amount of bandwidth spent by the web site...
[13:59] <thelema> if nodes are limited to 20 seeds (or less), then they have to wait to get more.
[14:00] <thelema> but if every seed is given to every node, then when some seeds go down, the ones that are left get *all* the hits
[14:00] * Naked (naked@naked.iki.fi) has joined #freenet
[14:01] <toad__> greycat: the web site is on sf, bandwidth is not an issue :)
[14:01] <toad__> greycat: CPU usage arguably is a more important issue
[14:01] <thelema> whereas if seeds are only given to some new nodes, only those nodes will be able to /. the seeds
[14:01] * Naked is now known as Hadaka
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[14:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[14:02] <toad__> sanity: hi
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[14:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[14:08] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> greycat: Has you'r flog been inserted latly, or should i just save myself the trouble of trying to load it?
[14:09] <hirvox> speaking of flogs, does anyone insert a flog to the unstable network anymore?
[14:12] <toad__> does anyone insert ANYTHING into the unstable network anymore?
[14:13] <toad__> a nice index site would be useful for example...
[14:13] * TLF (francisco@75.Red-81-40-116.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc || Adi?s a todos y a todas y que les vaya bien.")
[14:13] <oylerj> oh my god, in france, email isnt email
[14:13] <oylerj> its courier electronique!
[14:16] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> That is what happens when you make stable to stable. Noone inserts content to unstable... I would like to run a index on unstalble, but neither hardware nor bw is for that kind of thing currently.
[14:18] <hirvox> I have the same problem, so I can't run stable
[14:20] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> A lot of things vere more easy when stable and unstalbe vere not seperated...
[14:23] <jay> a lot of things were impossible when development occurred on the same branch as 'stable'
[14:23] <jay> err network
[14:24] <iip_i2p> <lonelynerd> toad_: re pdfs: [ GLSA 200408-10 ] gv: Exploitable Buffer Overflow
[14:24] * g4lt-sb100 is now known as galt
[14:25] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> jar:I know all the arguments, i'm just saying that when stable is working, unstable get's lot less content (which makes testing new unstalbe builds harder?)
[14:25] <iip_i2p> <Sonax> jar -> jay (no autocompleet here when you are not in "this" channel)
[14:26] <jay> sonax: understood
[14:36] * supermannn (~kdfjk@216.32.201.125) has joined #freenet
[14:37] <supermannn> would unstable be faster than stable
[14:37] <supermannn> all im getting is 9KB/sec
[14:37] <toad__> 9kB/sec what?
[14:37] <toad__> downloading splitfile?
[14:37] <supermannn> down
[14:37] <toad__> or total download speed?
[14:38] <supermannn> total everything. sometimes it goes higher, but not for long
[14:38] <supermannn> get a lot of could not find route stuff too
[14:38] * Ash-Foxeus (Hal-9000@aac136.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Client Quit)
[14:38] <toad__> supermannn: so it's actually using 9kB/sec download on your link?
[14:38] <toad__> that's expected with only 12kB/sec limit on uplink
[14:39] <toad__> uplink ~= downlink if you have nothing running client side i.e. no splitfile fetches etc
[14:39] <supermannn> im trying the splitfile thing and trying to browse... it just jumped to 14
[14:40] <toad__> how many connections do you have?
[14:40] <supermannn> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 72 (22/50/200)
[14:40] <supermannn> Transfers active (Transmitting/Receiving) 95 (28/67)
[14:40] <supermannn> Total amount of data transferred 272 MiB
[14:40] <toad__> hmmm
[14:41] <toad__> you shouldn't get many RNFs unless you have frost or a splitfile download running
[14:41] * TLF (francisco@115.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[14:41] <toad__> with 72 conns...
[14:42] <supermannn> well i have frost and split running right now, but even when they arent it still is pretty crappy. like im trying to open "The first one" in the murder category, and it takes a long time, then says rnf. what ive been doing is opening tons of links in new windows, they all get RNF, then i walk away and if i come back a long time later one of them might be there. but if it has any pics, theyll probably be blank
[14:43] <toad__> blank as in broken link?
[14:43] <supermannn> ya
[14:43] <supermannn> but if i hit refresh, and let it load again, and keep doing that for hours
[14:43] <supermannn> some pix will load
[14:44] <supermannn> eventually
[14:44] <toad__> right, the problem is RNFs not DNFs
[14:44] <supermannn> luckily all freenet sites dont use pix or itd be crappy
[14:44] <toad__> okay
[14:44] <toad__> well.. with Frost running, that's pretty inevitable...
[14:44] <supermannn> ill close it
[14:45] * toad__ must look into Frost sometime soon...
[14:46] <supermannn> 14KB/sec downloads of files seems slow though. i tried unstable months ago and was getting like 40 i think, though i didnt do much was just experimenting
[14:46] <supermannn> frost is kind of boring
[14:46] <jay> toad__: especially since many people are using it on stable at least
[14:46] <supermannn> no one says anything good
[14:46] * interrupt (~chatzilla@64.122.23.213) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.64b [Mozilla rv:1.7/20040707]")
[14:47] <toad__> jay: so that's the next job?
[14:47] <toad__> hmmm
[14:47] <toad__> okay
[14:47] <toad__> after I've processed this log file, and fixed any resulting bugs...
[14:47] <supermannn> so going to unstable wont necessarily make it faster?
[14:48] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[14:48] <toad__> i may need some help adding loads of boards to extremize it...
[14:48] <toad__> supermannn: not necessarily but if you want to try it...
[14:48] * KlirKer (~ZeuXrty@117.Red-83-33-225.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[14:48] <KlirKer> hi
[14:48] <KlirKer> i need help
[14:48] <supermannn> now that ive closed frost and am trying the murder site, i get a DNF
[14:49] <KlirKer> what is that? =Couldn't Retrieve Key
[14:49] <KlirKer> Couldn't connect to the network. Are you sure you have configured Freenet correctly? Also make sure that you are connected to the internet
[14:49] <supermannn> KlirKer how long have you had it running?
[14:50] <KlirKer> i had instaled today
[14:50] <supermannn> it took mine a while before itd do anything
[14:50] <KlirKer> i never run
[14:50] <KlirKer> i never run it
[14:50] <KlirKer> sorry to my english , i'm spainish
[14:51] <KlirKer> i don't know how it work...
[14:51] <KlirKer> i need help
[14:51] <KlirKer> i have a route whit nat
[14:51] <KlirKer> and
[14:51] <KlirKer> windows XP
[14:51] <supermannn> theres nothing to know
[14:51] <supermannn> just install it and thats it
[14:51] <KlirKer> then...
[14:51] <KlirKer> what can i do?
[14:51] <supermannn> then leave it running
[14:52] <supermannn> and hours later, try dbl clicking the bunny
[14:52] <KlirKer> bunny?
[14:52] <supermannn> blue icon
[14:53] <KlirKer> it's say : freenet is running
[14:53] <toad__> KlirKer: hi
[14:53] <KlirKer> hi
[14:53] <toad__> KlirKer: when did you install it?
[14:53] <KlirKer> today
[14:53] <toad__> okay
[14:53] <KlirKer> 1 hour
[14:53] <toad__> http://127.0.0.1:8888/servlet/nodeinfo/networking/ocm
[14:54] <toad__> can you get that page? what does it say - how many connections are open?
[14:54] <KlirKer> Connections open (Inbound/Outbound/Limit) 34 (20/14/200)
[14:54] <KlirKer> Transfers active (Transmitting/Receiving) 23 (10/13)
[14:54] <KlirKer> Data waiting to be transferred None
[14:54] <KlirKer> Total amount of data transferred 6.543 KiB
[14:54] <toad__> okay, 34 is reasonable... a bit low but reasonable...
[14:54] <toad__> what happens when you try to access freesites/
[14:54] <toad__> ?
[14:54] <supermannn> way better than what i had after first installing it
[14:55] <KlirKer> where is freesites
[14:55] <KlirKer> :)
[14:55] <toad__> http://127.0.0.1:8888/
[14:55] <KlirKer> ok
[14:55] <KlirKer> wait
[14:55] <KlirKer> Build: 5091 Load: 27 %
[14:55] <toad__> ok
[14:56] <toad__> what about the links with the icons?
[14:56] <KlirKer> and now..?
[14:56] <toad__> Content of Evil etc?
[14:56] <Addos> hmm
[14:56] <Addos> I only have 11 links
[14:56] <toad__> have the images loaded?
[14:56] <Addos> :(
[14:56] <KlirKer> no
[14:56] <KlirKer> only the text
[14:56] <supermannn> KlirKer may i ask what made you want to install freenet?
[14:56] <supermannn> this is like geek type stuff, but you seem too clueless to be a geek :)
[14:56] <toad__> KlirKer: okay, try right click, open in new window
[14:56] <toad__> on each of the 5 links with an image box
[14:56] <Addos> ha
[14:57] <supermannn> toad__ it took me lots of hours before getting a single icon to showup, freedom engine
[14:57] <KlirKer> Caveat Lector
[14:57] <KlirKer> Let The Reader Beware
[14:57] <KlirKer> It has alas come to my attention that once again the Freenet project seriously threatens to tear itself apart over the ever thorny issue of the existence and perceived support of child pornography and closely related content within the Freenet network structure.
[14:57] <KlirKer> that...?
[14:57] <toad__> supermannn: well the icons don't auto-refresh
[14:57] <toad__> since they're not IFRAME'd
[14:57] <toad__> KlirKer: that's one of the indexes
[14:57] <Addos> toad it is probably because of a low number of connections
[14:57] <toad__> KlirKer: called The Freedom Engine, it's an index of everything on freenet, it's not categorized
[14:57] <supermannn> i know, i say there hitting refresh every lil bit all day, then continued the next day lol
[14:57] <supermannn> sat
[14:58] <toad__> I recommend you use a categorized index such as YoYo
[14:58] <toad__> or Dolphin
[14:58] <Addos> yoyo won't load for me
[14:58] <Addos> Couldn't retrieve key: SSK@Sc6qV%7eD6iFhaYord6HtbjJ8MaEYPAgM/YoYo//
[14:58] <Addos> Hops To Live: 15
[14:58] <Addos> Error: Route Not Found
[14:58] <Addos> Attempts were made to contact 0 nodes.
[14:58] <Addos> * 0 were totally unreachable.
[14:58] <Addos> * 0 restarted.
[14:58] <greycat> yoyo has a pathetically non-updated list of sites
[14:58] <Addos> * 0 cleanly rejected.
[14:58] <Addos> * 11 backed off.
[14:58] <KlirKer> if i push the =Categorized freenet index
[14:58] <greycat> or... it did last time I looked (~2 weeks ago?_
[14:58] <supermannn> whats the best freesite?
[14:58] <toad__> Addos: you have exactly 11 connections, correct?
[14:58] <KlirKer> Couldn't Retrieve Key
[14:58] <KlirKer> Network Error
[14:58] <KlirKer> Couldn't connect to the network. Are you sure you have configured Freenet correctly? Also make sure that you are connected to the internet.
[14:58] <KlirKer> Retrying...
[14:58] <Addos> toad__: yes
[14:59] <toad__> KlirKer: go back to http://127.0.0.1:8888/ (you should still have it in another window), and click on "Advanced mode"
[14:59] <supermannn> KlirKer mine did the same thing, wait. go to sleep and come back in a day
[14:59] <Addos> uptime is 3 hours 29 minutes
[14:59] <greycat> KlirKer: I'd strongly suggest you change to 'advanced mode'
[14:59] <toad__> that will give more interesting error messages
[14:59] <supermannn> whats the best freesite?
[15:01] <supermannn> since people have some anonymity youd think thered be some interesting info there
[15:01] <supermannn> but i cant seem to find it
[15:01] <supermannn> :)
[15:02] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aac136.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[15:03] <supermannn> i wonder what would happen if some big terrorist organization made a freesite and openly were posting on frost about future plannings
[15:04] <oylerj> well, theyd be doing law enforcement a favor
[15:04] <oylerj> assuming it was there for all to see
[15:04] <toad__> :)
[15:05] <oylerj> the more damaging scenario is that they use it for propaganda
[15:05] <supermannn> well i mean they could use it for communication between cells that are seperated by a lot of distance... and for recruiting. actual details could be encrypted
[15:05] <supermannn> but i mean if they used it to grow
[15:05] <supermannn> and to send messages to the public
[15:05] <oylerj> since that wouldnt be helpful to law enforcement, but could concievably piss off some governments
[15:05] <oylerj> israel comes to mind
[15:05] <oylerj> how would you ever know they were using freenet?
[15:05] <supermannn> since my ip is there i bet id get a knock on the door
[15:06] <oylerj> if that were the case, i mean
[15:06] <oylerj> and if they used something else other than freenet...
[15:06] <oylerj> wouldnt that be the same thing?
[15:06] <oylerj> so freenet ends up being an irrelevant detail
[15:06] <supermannn> no
[15:06] <supermannn> freenet harbors the terrorists then
[15:06] <supermannn> and is in violation
[15:06] <supermannn> freenetizens
[15:06] <oylerj> now, if they use it publically for propaganda, maybe release pictures of US torture (doctored or real)...
[15:07] <oylerj> then, things could get bad for freenet
[15:07] <supermannn> not just for freenet, for all of us running it, since we ARE freenet
[15:07] <supermannn> wed be quetioned at the very least
[15:07] <oylerj> doubtful
[15:08] <oylerj> assuming non-idiot agents, what would they hope to gain by interrogating you?
[15:09] <supermannn> why is that doubtful? people have already used the anti terror laws for all kinds of wacko things. if the terrorists make a nice little home on freenet and its allowing them to progress, and expand, and freenet is an obstacle for law enforcement to get to them, then theyll do whatever is possible
[15:09] <oylerj> are you some kind of rainman, that you could read the encrypted packets in tcpdump as they arrived at your node?
[15:09] <supermannn> theyd have no choice. theyd need to find the people using freenet for terrorism purposes, and freenet makes that impossible. so theyd have no choice but to take the big list of ips and go down the list
[15:09] <oylerj> and if you're not, what could they gain by questioning you
[15:09] <oylerj> no, theyd have lots of choices
[15:10] <oylerj> but interrogating random people isnt one of them
[15:10] <toad__> "what did you do in the War on Terror?" Oh, I harboured some terrorists!
[15:10] <toad__> :)
[15:10] <supermannn> what? they cant stop freenet, and they cant locate the people using it for terrorism
[15:10] <oylerj> they could pass legislation making freenet software illegal in the US, for instance
[15:10] <supermannn> no, theyd just open the door, and if youre white theyd say, "sorry to bother you, go back to your kiddy porn"
[15:10] <oylerj> they could pass legislation banning all freenet-like software, for that matter
[15:11] <supermannn> its not just the US, and you cant pass a law banning people running some software, itd be impossible to enforce
[15:11] <oylerj> they could get their hands into the backbones, and identify most, if not all of the freenet participants
[15:11] <oylerj> at which point, they could try to attack it directly
[15:11] <toad__> supermannn: you can pass laws for all kinds of silly things, you'd be surprised...
[15:11] <supermannn> oylerj i can identify them all too, i have your IP
[15:11] <oylerj> they could start a anti-freenet propaganda campaign
[15:12] <oylerj> ala "drugs support terrorism"
[15:12] * oylerj is now known as Redb3ard
[15:12] <greycat> stop depressing me!
[15:12] <Redb3ard> supermann, funny thing is, i dont use freenet
[15:12] <toad__> :)
[15:12] <supermannn> no that wouldnt do a thing, you miss the point
[15:12] <Redb3ard> so, you see how well that works
[15:12] <toad__> we have to make freenet WORK before we need to worry about serious persecution, guys...
[15:12] <toad__> just a reminder!
[15:12] <Redb3ard> it doesnt have to be effective
[15:12] <toad__> first make it work
[15:12] <toad__> then make it popular
[15:13] <toad__> THEN deal with the persecution :)
[15:13] <supermannn> they dont care about broad efforts against terrorism... its all about specific and direct attacks on them
[15:13] <Redb3ard> hell, i cant name a single thing, other than burning through tax money, that the US gov does efficiently
[15:13] <Redb3ard> hell, not even that
[15:13] <toad__> lol
[15:13] <toad__> nonetheless they have some bright people
[15:13] <toad__> and nearly unlimited resources
[15:13] <Redb3ard> open software has some pretty big resources, too
[15:14] <toad__> if they banned freenet, they could probably find all nodes in the US... well they could NOW, whether future versions will be safer remains to be seen...
[15:14] <Redb3ard> not at the level of a government, but certainly more than say the RIAA
[15:14] <toad__> Redb3ard: sure but not one project
[15:14] <toad__> Redb3ard: and the RIAA are the Economic Majority. This means they provide the majority of campaign contributions ;)
[15:15] <Redb3ard> well, i dont think ashcroft dips into dubya's reelection funds
[15:15] <Redb3ard> so contributions may be irrelevant
[15:15] <Redb3ard> then again, what do i know
[15:15] <toad__> perhaps
[15:15] <toad__> i hope so
[15:15] <toad__> but individual senators do get significant contributions also
[15:15] <Redb3ard> time is on freenet's side
[15:15] <toad__> often from the media
[15:16] <Redb3ard> even the things i say are viable approaches by a government...
[15:16] <Redb3ard> they wont happen tomorrow
[15:16] <Redb3ard> and terrorism just isnt the best propaganda attack on freenet
[15:16] <Redb3ard> i see kiddy porn as being more polarizing
[15:16] <greycat> agreed
[15:17] <Redb3ard> whats more, as long as the courts arent perverted too badly, the burden is on them to prove that freenet was a essential component of any real crime
[15:18] <Redb3ard> supermannn, your insight isnt unappreciated
[15:18] <Redb3ard> just gotta remember many people here have been thinking of every technical and legal pitfall possible for years
[15:19] <Redb3ard> btw, offtopic: metanet just celebrated its 1 year anniversary, i believe
[15:19] <Redb3ard> :P
[15:19] <Addos> yeah, but with as inefficient as freenet is currently, it isn't likely to be used for any real crime over closed private networks like waste
[15:20] <supermannn> waste?
[15:20] <Addos> yes, waste
[15:20] <toad__> Welcome aboard. And Freenet will really be on its feet when Hell freezes over.
[15:20] <toad__> --
[15:20] <Addos> hehehe
[15:20] <toad__> -----
[15:20] <toad__> Oh man, I can't wait. Not only will my future home be air-coniditioned, but I'll be able to browse freenet with lightning speed.
[15:20] <toad__> LOL
[15:20] <Redb3ard> you overestimate the amount of coordination terrorism requires
[15:20] <Addos> waste requires coordination also
[15:20] <Redb3ard> anything with email-like qualities would be enough
[15:21] <Redb3ard> they dont need multi-party video conferencing
[15:21] <Addos> waste doesn't offer video conferencing
[15:21] <Redb3ard> freenet fits that bill
[15:21] <Addos> it offers secure, p2p communication, and also misdirection
[15:21] <supermannn> what is waste?
[15:21] <toad__> <Addos> yeah, but with as inefficient as freenet is currently, it isn't likely to be used for any real crime over closed private networks like waste - depends what you want to do with it
[15:21] <Addos> waste fits it even ebtter
[15:21] <Redb3ard> the thing more likely to keep it from being used, is osmosis
[15:21] <toad__> WASTE would be REALLY bad for publishing a terrorist propaganda site
[15:21] <Addos> supermannn: waste.sf.net
[15:21] <Redb3ard> freenet is quite the celebrity on slashdot
[15:21] <supermannn> is it nullsofts?
[15:21] <Redb3ard> somewhat so in tech circles generally
[15:21] <Addos> toad__: why waste the effort to post a site?
[15:21] <Addos> supermannn: yes
[15:22] <Redb3ard> but almost known outside of that
[15:22] <supermannn> i read waste isnt really secure
[15:22] <Addos> freenet wouldn't be worth the effort for a terrorist, if 50 to 75% of the time, the content weren't available
[15:22] <Addos> supermannn: waste is quite secure, especially with some of its larger key sizes
[15:22] <Redb3ard> addos.... these are people that wait in caves in afghanistan for weeks, for messages
[15:22] <toad__> what are .mod's? music?
[15:22] <Addos> yes
[15:22] <Addos> from amiga
[15:23] <Addos> Redb3ard: yes, but when it comes to attacking, if the freenet site wasn't working, the attack would fail
[15:23] <Redb3ard> freenet would seem like the depths of civilization, compared to what theyre used to
[15:23] <toad__> <Redb3ard> somewhat so in tech circles generally - 0.5 was covered by ZD Business Week...
[15:23] <Redb3ard> toad, somewhat so is positive ;)
[15:23] <toad__> Addos: pirated?
[15:23] <Addos> toad__: pirated, what, mod? no
[15:23] <toad__> then why are they on Frost? :)
[15:23] <Addos> Redb3ard: if terrorists relied on freenet, attacks wouldn't happen
[15:24] <Redb3ard> bullshit
[15:24] <toad__> also what do I play them with on linux?
[15:24] <Addos> toad__: probably because they are hard to find
[15:24] <Redb3ard> they dont have a flurry of communications the day of the attack
[15:24] <toad__> cool... what do I play them with on linux?
[15:24] <Redb3ard> probably none at all then
[15:24] <Addos> Redb3ard: I dunno, there were some right before 9/11
[15:24] <Redb3ard> its one here, one there, in the months leading up to it
[15:24] <Addos> but no one suspected an attack of the scale of 9/11
[15:24] <Addos> since there wasn't much precedent for anything like it, other than the Cole
[15:24] <Redb3ard> addos, and those attacks were coordinated in a country that has less than 100 phone lines
[15:25] <Redb3ard> i read the account of one of the fucks
[15:25] <Redb3ard> he had to wait 2 hours, for a call to go through
[15:25] <Addos> yeah, but comparing phone lines to freenet, they are a hell of a lot more reliable
[15:25] <Redb3ard> when the operator answered at the other end, in pakistan...
[15:25] <Redb3ard> it took another half hour to find someone that spoke his language
[15:25] <Redb3ard> so, saying freenet isnt fast or reliable enough, thats just dumb
[15:25] <Addos> a terrorist wouldn't have the patience to fuck with freenet, they would grab something secure, and reliable, like waste or some other encrypted variant which ensured private communications
[15:26] <Addos> hell, even gpg would owrk
[15:26] <Redb3ard> haha
[15:26] <Addos> waste still guarantees anonmity, and it works
[15:26] <Redb3ard> any traffic that isnt mixed in with non-terrorist communication, runs the risk of an intelligence agency flagging it
[15:26] <toad__> Addos: depends on what they want
[15:27] <Redb3ard> at which point, doesnt matter what keysize you use.. you might as well consider it read by the CIA
[15:27] <Addos> Redb3ard: unless the communication is so obscured, they can't tell what is non terrorist
[15:27] <Redb3ard> theyre more likely to use hotmail, than waste
[15:27] <Addos> waste can send steady streams of data to mask real communication
[15:27] <Addos> and make it even harder to tell where the REAL communication occured
[15:27] <Redb3ard> addos, so 15 terrorists set up a waste
[15:27] <Addos> yes, which each link to 15 others
[15:27] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[15:27] <Addos> it adds up quickly
[15:27] <Redb3ard> everything on that waste network is terrorist related, CIA is very interested in all of it
[15:28] <Addos> if the CIA can manage to get on
[15:28] <Redb3ard> you mean if the CIA can manage to cajole uunet into letting them sniff a backbone the packets travel over?
[15:28] * toad__ running Frost to see what it does to my node...
[15:28] <Addos> since it uses public key encryption to authenticate, that will be difficult if none of the terrorists accept the cia's public key
[15:28] <Redb3ard> because its at least plausible, at that point
[15:28] <supermannn> i just installed waste to see what it is. do i have to setup a server on my lan? there doesnt appear to be a public server
[15:29] <Redb3ard> dude, you dont get it
[15:29] <Redb3ard> not even close
[15:29] <Addos> Redb3ard: anybody who uses the word "dude" doesn't get it
[15:29] <Redb3ard> assuming that they have tech we wont know about for at least 5 years, and maybe as long as 15 years...
[15:29] <Addos> supermannn: you exchange keys
[15:29] <Redb3ard> then why the fuck would they need a public key?
[15:29] <Redb3ard> more so
[15:29] * robilad (~topic@mpiat2313.ag2.mpi-sb.mpg.de) has joined #freenet
[15:29] <Redb3ard> even just gleaning info from encrypted stuff is possible, and dangerous
[15:30] <Addos> Redb3ard: there are technologies out there, that are FAR more reliable, and at most very required to pull off a sophisticated attack, than using something like freenet
[15:30] <Redb3ard> "gee, we dont know what they said, but mohammed and abu are talking up a storm the last 2 days"
[15:30] <jay> what the hell are you 2 arguing about?
[15:30] <Addos> hell, they probably are using something more secure than public key encryption, probably symmetric ciphers using one time pads
[15:30] <jay> what software terrorists prefer to use?
[15:30] <Redb3ard> and you dont understand that they dont want technologuy
[15:30] <Redb3ard> theyre not geeks
[15:30] <jay> who cares
[15:30] <Addos> then they sure as hell won't be using freenet
[15:30] <Addos> the best you could expect would be email
[15:31] <Redb3ard> yes
[15:31] <Redb3ard> which is exactly the kind of communication theyd prefer
[15:31] <Addos> I'm sure they would
[15:31] <Redb3ard> duh
[15:31] <supermannn> has freenet been used for anything serious yet, besides entertainment?
[15:31] <toad__> Addos: the point is, if they find the WASTE network they can instantly track all nodes
[15:31] <jay> Addos: you don't understand the basics behine asymetrical warfare
[15:31] <Addos> toad__: no they can't
[15:31] <supermannn> are those murder things real or fake?
[15:31] <Redb3ard> toad, what do you know?
[15:31] <Redb3ard> addos here is an expert and a genius
[15:31] <Addos> toad__: waste indirectly routes data
[15:31] <toad__> Redb3ard: huh?
[15:31] <toad__> Addos: yes you can
[15:32] <Addos> only if you are directly connected
[15:32] <toad__> Addos: the ONLY nodes on a WASTE network are the ones actually run by terrorists
[15:32] <Redb3ard> addos, explain to toad why he's an idiot
[15:32] <toad__> because it's all private networks
[15:32] <Addos> toad__: how would they know they are terrorists?
[15:32] <Redb3ard> freenet is not only more secure, but far more reliable than most current terrorist communications
[15:32] <toad__> Addos: you don't, but if you find 1, you find them all
[15:32] <jay> terrorists use snail mail since it can't be scanned or sniffed.. how do you defend against that?
[15:33] <toad__> that's the point
[15:33] <jay> so what if they can use freenet
[15:33] <Addos> toad__: no, you find some
[15:33] <toad__> jay: it can actually
[15:33] <Addos> toad__: you don't find all of them
[15:33] <toad__> Addos: how come?
[15:33] <Redb3ard> theyre used to trying to connect to third world country telephone systems from satphones in the desert
[15:33] <Addos> because like freenet, stuff is routed
[15:33] <Addos> passively from node to node
[15:33] <toad__> if it's a private network the only nodes are those on that specific private network, right?
[15:33] <jay> toad__: scanned and OCR'ed ?
[15:33] <toad__> so therefore all the nodes are run by terrorists
[15:33] <Addos> they are private, but when you connect, you don't know ALL the nodes
[15:34] <Addos> you only know a subset
[15:34] <toad__> Addos: the point is, you use a larger network, so your traffic is obscured
[15:34] <Redb3ard> i say freenet is safe because of osmosis... most of us here were using the internet heavily in 95
[15:34] <toad__> Addos: Freenet, Kazaa, anonymous remailers
[15:34] <supermannn> osmosis?
[15:34] <Redb3ard> the terrorists still dont use it heavily, maybe only lightly
[15:34] <toad__> all these things provide cover traffic
[15:34] <Redb3ard> so its unlikely theyll have absorbed the ideas of things like freenet yet
[15:34] <toad__> WASTE does not provide cover traffic
[15:34] <Addos> toad__: waste can be setup such that it is one long daizy chain
[15:35] <Redb3ard> addos
[15:35] <Addos> so you can only attack one node at a time, and you'd be busy trying to compromise one after the other
[15:35] <toad__> anyway where was I?
[15:35] <Addos> by that time
[15:35] <Addos> they'd be gone
[15:35] <Redb3ard> do you think the terrorists will take time to invite a bunch of non-terrorists?
[15:35] <toad__> Addos: why do you need to crack them?
[15:35] <Addos> they'd change the keys
[15:35] <toad__> all you have to do is see them and watch their traffic
[15:35] <Addos> toad__: because you can't find the other nodes otherwise
[15:35] <toad__> you don't need to decrypt it
[15:35] <Addos> it is passive
[15:35] <Addos> if I send data to you
[15:35] <toad__> what does passive mean in this context?
[15:35] <Addos> you send it to Redb3ard
[15:35] <Addos> Redb3ard sends it to microsoft
[15:35] <Redb3ard> "hi, my name is achmed, and id like to blow up the statue of liberty, will you please trade mp3s on our network for cover traffic?"
[15:35] <Addos> how do you know my data is going straight to microsoft?
[15:36] <toad__> because you can see both links
[15:36] <Addos> the point is, you don't
[15:36] <Addos> no, you see the link between me and you
[15:36] <toad__> because you are The Man and you can passively surveil the entire US internet
[15:36] <jay> Addos: if someone installs a sniffer on a backbone-level path then they observe everything
[15:36] <Addos> not between you and Redb3ard and Redb3ard and microsoft
[15:36] <jay> Addos: freenet isn't trying to hide the fact messages are moving through the network
[15:36] <Redb3ard> passively surveil the US, maybe even the globe, is certainly possible even in some large corporations
[15:36] <Redb3ard> the major telecom carriers, for instance
[15:37] <sinner123> hey! is mute safe???
[15:37] <jay> Redb3ard: totally feasable with current technology, and not just by the US
[15:37] <toad__> okay, thread usage is reasonable... there is idle time...
[15:37] <supermannn> bah its too complicated. privacy is impossible, forget it. why bother
[15:37] <toad__> sinner123: mute doesn't scale
[15:37] <jay> supermannn: it's definitely complicated
[15:37] <toad__> mute does a broadcast search to find the data
[15:37] <jay> 1 irc conversation can't solve it all
[15:38] <toad__> okay, running Frost... idle time is reasonable... so why is routingTime so high?
[15:38] * KlirKer (~ZeuXrty@117.Red-83-33-225.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("? IRcap [7.51] ? http://www.ircap.net ?")
[15:38] <supermannn> jay why do we even need privacy
[15:38] <jay> supermannn: privacy is not the same as freedom of communication
[15:38] <sinner123> can the riaa find me when i download something from mute
[15:38] <supermannn> then why does freenet care so much about privacy?
[15:38] <jay> supermannn: i would argue free information is the foudnation of any so-called 'democracy'
[15:39] <supermannn> i dont live in a democracy, i live in a republic
[15:39] <jay> supermannn: what do u mean why?
[15:39] <sinner123> hey!
[15:39] <sinner123> can the riaa find me when i download something from mute
[15:39] <Addos> not easily
[15:39] <jay> sinner123: ask the riaa
[15:39] <toad__> supermannn: because the right to anonymous free speech is basic part of the idea of free communication
[15:39] <supermannn> why
[15:40] <supermannn> whats the difference if im anonymous or i say something where people could find my identity
[15:40] * TLF (francisco@115.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc || Adi?s a todos y a todas y que les vaya bien.")
[15:40] <jay> supermannn: you must ponder this thought young supermann
[15:40] <toad__> supermannn: well, if you say something and they can trace you, they can kill you
[15:40] <toad__> and that may prevent you from saying the rest of the stuff you wanted to say
[15:40] <jay> supermannn: why would someone feel free to publish information if they feared their actions would lead to their injury?
[15:41] <jay> supermannn: not just physical, but economic hardship as well
[15:41] <greycat> jay: is that a reverse troll?
[15:41] <supermannn> toad__ yes, but merely giving me some anonymity for a moment wont prevent them from killing me. do you expect me to live in silence for my entire life? i want to have freedom of speech, if it means people killing me then id better invest in some defense
[15:41] <sinner123> what is better mute or freenet
[15:41] <sinner123> what is better mute or freenet
[15:41] <jay> supermannn: like, the IRC seizing your house because you published documents on how to save taxes by moving accounts offshore, for example
[15:41] <mikeDOTd> sinner123: chill out
[15:41] <Addos> sinner123: mute works better for file transfer
[15:41] <jay> greycat: what's a reverse troll? :)
[15:42] <jay> sinner123: this is a freenet developers channel
[15:42] <greycat> jay: like... trying to provoke people into civil disobedience, or voting, or something else good.
[15:42] <sinner123> okay!
[15:42] <jay> greycat: heh exactly
[15:42] <jay> greycat: my brain couldn't figure that out
[15:42] <jay> err IRC=IRS
[15:42] <jay> bad typo
[15:42] <supermannn> jay ya but freenet is just a temporary solution. we need to get rid of the threats to freedom
[15:43] <toad__> supermannn: LOL
[15:43] <toad__> yeah, sure
[15:43] <jay> supermannn: freenet cannot address all that
[15:43] <toad__> I hate to disappoint you, but we are LOSING
[15:43] <jay> supermannn: it can provide free communication.. without that you have nothing
[15:43] <supermannn> toad__ no we arent
[15:43] <jay> supermannn: the threats to freedom are monetery greed and selfishness.. how can freenet fix that?
[15:44] <Addos> yeah, but what good is free communication if you can only talk and have other's hear you 50% of the time or less?
[15:44] <supermannn> haha Addos
[15:44] * Hadaka_ (naked@naked.iki.fi) has joined #freenet
[15:44] <jay> Addos: that's why it's 0.5 genius
[15:44] <Addos> it seems worse than 0.1
[15:44] <jay> Addos: when it's 1.0 treat it like a release
[15:44] <jay> Addos: until then it's in development
[15:44] <supermannn> jay i didnt say freenet is the answer... i said it isnt. we need to get rid of the threats to freedom. freenet wont do it
[15:44] <toad__> 0.3 sucked, actually
[15:44] <toad__> if you don't remember that that's your problem
[15:45] <greycat> 0.3 was better than the early 0.4 (with monolithic data store)
[15:45] <toad__> supermannn: freenet will help. freenet is used by chinese students who don't like their state's censorship policy, for example.
[15:45] <greycat> 0.5 has, most of the time, been better than both of them
[15:45] <jay> greycat: ugh the DSB.. recall?
[15:45] <greycat> yes.
[15:45] <Addos> this feels like a white whale
[15:45] <toad__> greycat: it has?
[15:45] <Addos> something that will never hit 1.0
[15:45] <toad__> if you say so :)
[15:45] <supermannn> yes it can help........ if it were anywhere near usable. we need something that feels like the regular net, but offers protection of identity
[15:45] <jay> Addos: at least we're not as optomistic as you
[15:45] <Addos> hahaha
[15:46] <toad__> Addos: possibly but even if we fail, we will have learned a lot about how to build such things
[15:46] <Addos> true
[15:46] <Addos> ok, I'll give you that much
[15:46] <toad__> supermannn: freenet DOES work for some uses even now
[15:46] <Addos> entropy seems to have done things differently, but in some ways better
[15:46] <supermannn> toad__ not for me
[15:46] <greycat> it's really good at eating up bandwidth
[15:46] <toad__> entropy won't scale and uses crypto algorithms invented by its creator i.e. easily crackable crypto algorithms
[15:47] <Addos> hmm, yeah, but those can be swapped out
[15:47] <toad__> supermannn: well, what's your SPECIFIC complaint?
[15:47] <Addos> the crypto could easily be replaced in a final version
[15:47] <toad__> argh, sorry, I need to bbiab
[15:47] <toad__> Addos: sure but the lack of scalability is pretty serious
[15:47] <Addos> hmm
[15:47] <toad__> as is the fact that Entropy's SSKs aren't actually SSKs
[15:47] <supermannn> toad__ i need a platform where i can reach lots of people, with reliable communication. can freenet ever do anything like you can do with PHP?
[15:47] <Addos> yeah, they did that for compatibility
[15:47] <Redb3ard> haha
[15:47] <toad__> which suggests its security is a problem
[15:47] <Addos> hmm
[15:48] <Redb3ard> there are people out there that still want to invent their own crypto?
[15:48] <toad__> supermannn: huh?
[15:48] <jay> Freenet would be real easy if it 1) didn't have to scale and 2) nobody turned their machines off and 3) it had a central server
[15:48] <toad__> you want scripting over freenet? any anonymous scripting is ALWAYS going to be a MAJOR headache
[15:48] <jay> heh
[15:48] <toad__> lol, yeah
[15:48] <toad__> bbiab
[15:48] <Addos> Redb3ard: anyone using public key encryption runs the risk of having their stuff broken, and not only broken but easily proven what the content was
[15:48] <supermannn> toad__ exactly, everything other than basic text will be a headache..... but even that doesnt always work and people cant always get my messages. its not usable
[15:49] <toad__> Addos: anyone using any encryption short of one time pads runs that risk eventually
[15:49] <Addos> yeah
[15:49] <jay> freenet needs to use one time pads
[15:49] <toad__> however you can't brute force a 256-bit key
[15:49] <Addos> one time pads, if the key isn't truly random, also runs the risk
[15:49] <toad__> not without one hell of a quantum crypto system
[15:49] <jay> how long will that take toad?
[15:49] <Addos> otps with freenet probably aren't possible
[15:49] <Addos> at least not truly random, and unique otps
[15:49] <toad__> jay: know any one-time-pad-based asymmetric crypto systems?
[15:49] <Redb3ard> toad, who says the spooks dont have quantum computers?
[15:49] <jay> Addos: i am kidding
[15:50] <Addos> isn't RC4?
[15:50] <jay> toad__: nope
[15:50] <Redb3ard> they could even be primitive at this point, and give them an edge
[15:50] <supermannn> toad__ i want to send video messages..... if i used freenet id have maybe 100 viewers max. if i was very lucky theyd share them with the regular internet on popular p2p networks. but if i use a web server, i can instantly hit 10s of thousands of viewers
[15:50] <Redb3ard> supermann, you must not have anything very intersting to say
[15:50] <Addos> toad__: is any work going to be done to simplify seednodes.ref?
[15:50] <Redb3ard> i mean, that you'd consider using a web server
[15:50] <Addos> wayyyy too much information per ip
[15:51] <Redb3ard> besides, you're also being highly optimistic, my own website gets maybe 500 unique visitors per month
[15:51] <Addos> also, does freenet have a way to rate the quality of a node?
[15:51] <supermannn> Redb3ard i dont care anymore. there are no good anonymous platforms and the time to talk is now. i understand the risk of death in pissing the majority off, but whats the option, silence?
[15:51] <jay> supermannn: put it up on the web.. but if it's controversial then internic will pull your dns from their root servers and BOOM no more website
[15:52] <Redb3ard> the option then, is not just an anonymous network, but a well thought out one
[15:52] <Redb3ard> i prefer my own, but freenet is a viable alternative
[15:52] <jay> supermannn: well this is the wrong place then.. all we do is work on freenet
[15:52] <Redb3ard> some though, waste in particular, seem like toys
[15:52] <jay> supermannn: the revolution channel is elsewhere
[15:52] <supermannn> jay exactly. theres no good solution right now and thats what disturbs me. the time is ripe RIGHT NOW for such a medium, for all of the freedom oriented people to get together. but we're going to lose our window because the medium isnt ready yet
[15:53] <jay> supermannn: the time is in the past
[15:53] <jay> supermannn: you're way too naive.. perhaps it's youth talking
[15:53] <jay> supermannn: to think that we're in the "middle" of this war on privacy is wrong
[15:53] * sinner123 (~fg@p5080D3C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ()
[15:53] <jay> we lost the war years ago
[15:53] <supermannn> jay yes but in the past it wasnt so easy because there was no external noise. and things were different, for instance when you dialup to a bbs you are physically connected, theres no hope of anonymity
[15:54] <supermannn> jay youre wrong, theres still some window left. the time is NOW because the window is almost closed.
[15:54] <jay> supermannn: do you understand tier I and II backbones?
[15:54] <supermannn> jay what bout them
[15:54] <supermannn> a
[15:54] <jay> all traffic is passed over the backbones
[15:55] <supermannn> yes and?
[15:55] <jay> that's a chokepoint
[15:55] <jay> you can't hide the fact you're making a connection on such a system
[15:55] <supermannn> comparing data passing through a backbone is nothing like comparing a phoneline entering someones house connected to a specific phone #
[15:56] <jay> supermannn: and now the technology exists (it didn't exist 30 years ago) to continuously monitor backbone traffic
[15:56] <jay> supermannn: which includes ALL phone conversations, radio, and even IRC
[15:56] <jay> so you have *no* privacy.. just as Scott McNeely said back in the mid 90's
[15:56] * Redb3ard puts on his tinfoil hat
[15:56] <Redb3ard> they're probably watching us even now!
[15:56] <jay> supermannn: you can even search certain .gov sites on the net and find out about it
[15:57] <supermannn> jay i said that, so why are we bothering. why dont we all say fuck it and use public forums for our free speech.
[15:57] <jay> supermannn: i didn't say the situation is hopeless
[15:57] <Redb3ard> i think chinese dissidents who use public forums, end up disappearing
[15:57] <Redb3ard> dont they?
[15:57] <Addos> chinese people using freenet might also
[15:57] <Addos> just for using freenet
[15:57] <jay> but you have to understand the current threat in order to even attempt to build a system (like Freenet)
[15:58] <Addos> the fact you are using anything like freenet might be enough to incriminate you, regardless of what you may be using it for
[15:58] <Redb3ard> jay, i had just started to appreciate your cycnicism
[15:58] <Redb3ard> this hopeful thing doesnt sit well
[15:58] <jay> heh
[15:58] <jay> Redb3ard: im both
[15:58] <Redb3ard> addos, there is no metanet
[15:58] <supermannn> jay i think it is hopeless right now. if all else fails and the window closes we will have to start a new network, not dependant on the backbones. but what good is something like freenet when the entire environment it exists in goes towards control. its like trying to think an anarchist community could exist within a dictatorship country. sure it could try and last for a bit, but eventually itd be destroyed.
[15:59] <jay> first cynical tho
[15:59] <Redb3ard> i just like experimenting with off-the-shelf VPN software
[15:59] <jay> supermannn: freenet doesn't attempt to hide the fact you are making *network connections* even on the backbone
[15:59] <jay> supermannn: it attempts to provide plausable-deniability among other things
[16:00] <Addos> yes, which is why the very fact you are using it will draw attention to you as a possible threat
[16:00] <Addos> even if you aren't
[16:00] <jay> Addos: yes authories will know you are using Freenet
[16:00] <jay> Addos: but that in itself (currently) is not a crime
[16:00] <supermannn> jay i understand, it doesnt matter, once the entire net is locked and the will of the people is distorted with propaganda psychological influence, then freenets schemes will be pointless. it WILL be removed
[16:00] <Addos> but they will be watching you for the moment you do commit a crime
[16:00] <Addos> the eyes will be pointed at you
[16:00] <jay> supermannn: we have that world now; propaganda and psychological influence
[16:01] <Addos> so that even if you weren't intending to do anything illegal, you may just do something foolish because so much attention is on you
[16:01] <Redb3ard> supermann, whose to say we wont have something even more revolutionary then, in the tech sense of the word?
[16:01] <jay> supermannn: just turn on Fox News or ABC to see it
[16:01] <supermannn> Redb3ard we will, we will have a high speed network not connected to Internet 1
[16:01] <jay> supermannn: all you've warned us that will happen is happening now
[16:02] <jay> supermannn: that's still a dream
[16:02] <Redb3ard> superman, who says it needs wires or fibers?
[16:02] <jay> P2P off the grid
[16:02] <Addos> the media had been doing it now for at least 10 years
[16:02] <jay> Addos: some in Europe did it back in the 30's and 40's too :)
[16:02] <Addos> damn
[16:03] <Addos> why is my node collecting information
[16:03] <Addos> but no one is retrieving any of it
[16:03] <Addos> oh, nm
[16:03] <Addos> someone is getting something from my node
[16:03] <Addos> still a ton of broken links
[16:03] <Addos> why can't I get more than 12 connections
[16:03] <supermannn> jay yes, and i see it happening... ive seen it happening for a long time. ive been bbsing since the 80s, and got heavy into the net since the early to mid 90s, and ive witnessed the amazing shift from a small community to the massive commercial wasteland. but theres still hope.... theres hope because the internet right now provides you and me with an EQUAL platform comparable to huge corporations and authorities. with the right marketing, we can do some
[16:04] <jay> supermannn: the equality of the internet is a myth
[16:04] <Redb3ard> commercial wasteland?
[16:04] <Redb3ard> yes, they did clearcut all the domain names, now didnt they
[16:04] <supermannn> no its not
[16:04] <jay> supermannn: if the internet were equal we wouldn't need freenet
[16:04] <Addos> it does make me wonder why so much of the internet is out of the people's own hands
[16:05] <supermannn> jay no, whitehouse.gov cant post threats to kill the president and neither can i. its equal
[16:05] <jay> Addos: it's evolved towards centralization, the very thing it was created not to be
[16:05] <Redb3ard> because they saw that they could make money at it
[16:05] <Addos> the people should start an internet2
[16:05] <Addos> and say fuck it to this commercialization
[16:05] <supermannn> Addos internet2 is already there. itd be internet3
[16:05] <jay> Addos: it evolved this way under pressure from corporations in the interest of profit
[16:05] <Redb3ard> whitehouse.gov posted threats to kill iraq's "president"
[16:05] <Addos> supermannn: I know
[16:06] <Addos> supermannn: internet2 should be the people's internet
[16:06] <jay> there is an Internet2
[16:06] <Addos> yep, we should have control over it
[16:06] <jay> and it's for researchers
[16:06] <Addos> well, they should call it MAN or something
[16:06] <jay> that's what the internet was originally built for in the first place
[16:06] <Addos> not internet
[16:06] <Addos> hehe
[16:06] <Addos> really, effort should be put into internet3
[16:06] <Addos> and migrating people over to it
[16:06] <Redb3ard> addos, where will you find money for it?
[16:06] <supermannn> Addos we will, the hardware isnt quite read and cheap enough
[16:06] <Redb3ard> internet2 cost alot
[16:06] <Addos> hahaha
[16:06] * Hadaka_ (naked@naked.iki.fi) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:06] <Addos> hmm
[16:07] <Addos> so who controls internet2?
[16:07] <Redb3ard> if they cant seel it, they dont want to pay the startup costs
[16:07] <jay> yeah at least into the billions
[16:07] <mikeDOTd> call me crazy, but maybe "the people" should get politicly active so "the government" represents "the people"
[16:07] <jay> Addos: same people who control Internet1
[16:07] <Addos> wow
[16:07] <Addos> wtf
[16:07] <jay> MCI, Sprint, UUNet, etc.
[16:07] <Addos> all this tax money we pay
[16:07] <Addos> and we can't all pitch in to buy internet3
[16:07] <jay> Addos: lol
[16:07] <Addos> and make somethign free
[16:07] <Redb3ard> haha
[16:07] <jay> Addos: you need more cynicism
[16:07] <Redb3ard> they wont even use tax money to build out residential internet connections
[16:07] <supermannn> mikeDOTd the government will never represent the people. they will only do so much as to allow themselves to stay in power so they can feel special and get benefits only afforded to the elite
[16:07] <jay> taxes are a wealth-transfer
[16:08] <Addos> we can start a shadow government
[16:08] <Redb3ard> what makes you think theyll build us a new one?
[16:08] <jay> probably even illegal
[16:08] <Addos> and make internet3
[16:08] <Addos> taxes are illegal
[16:08] <Redb3ard> texas is not illegal
[16:08] <jay> taxation without representation
[16:08] <Redb3ard> it became a state legally in 1849
[16:08] <Addos> yeah, texas is
[16:08] <jay> Redb3ard: heh
[16:08] <Addos> but taxes are
[16:09] <mikeDOTd> supermannn: i disagree. shorter, limited terms would help defeat the creation of a political class
[16:09] <Addos> let's axe the tax
[16:09] <Addos> wtf
[16:09] <Addos> we gotta get Bill Gates to build the internet 3
[16:09] <Addos> and give it to the people
[16:09] <Redb3ard> shorter limited terms just shifts things a little
[16:09] <Redb3ard> instead of running yourself, you become party chairmen
[16:09] <Redb3ard> and field puppets
[16:09] <Redb3ard> doesnt change anything
[16:09] * Hadaka_ (naked@naked.iki.fi) has joined #freenet
[16:10] <jay> special interests and corporations run government; politicians are just their hands
[16:10] <supermannn> mikeDOTd nope elected representation is flawed at its roots
[16:10] <jay> u can swap out everybody in congress and it wouldn't change a thing
[16:11] <greycat> well, your mistake was swapping new ones back *in*
[16:11] <jay> of course the only way to true freedom is to abolish the idea of money but nobody wants that ;)
[16:11] <mikeDOTd> supermannn: what would you suggest as an alternative?
[16:11] <mikeDOTd> supermannn: a pure democracy would allow for mob-rule
[16:11] <Addos> direct representation wouldn't work
[16:12] * rgm (bmbxjo@d-216-195-134-34.metrocast.net) Quit ()
[16:12] <supermannn> mikeDOTd ya, democracy sucks. id be burned by christians
[16:12] <Addos> wtf
[16:12] <Addos> how do I get freenet to connect to more nodes
[16:12] <Addos> 12 nodes ain't cutting it
[16:12] <greycat> Addos: keep inserting things, and be patient...?
[16:12] <Addos> I've waited 4 hours now
[16:12] <Addos> hehe
[16:12] <Addos> I have to insert stuff to make it connect to more nodes?
[16:13] <jay> Addos: either insert or retrieve but do something
[16:13] <Addos> yeah
[16:13] <Addos> I am trying to retrieve
[16:13] <Addos> and it gives me route not found
[16:13] <greycat> inserting is usually easier to do because you have the stuff already, you don't have to go hunting for valid keys
[16:13] <mikeDOTd> Addos: just run frost or try loading TFE from the main page
[16:13] <jay> greycat: ah true
[16:13] <Addos> yeah
[16:14] <Addos> tfe is about the only thing that loads
[16:14] <Addos> yoyo doesn't work
[16:14] <Addos> does it work for anyone else?
[16:14] <mikeDOTd> TFE's a good start
[16:14] <Addos> hmm
[16:14] <Addos> nothing loads off tfe though
[16:15] <jay> i got YoYo
[16:15] <jay> Addos: your node needs to learn more
[16:15] <Addos> Couldn't retrieve key: SSK@Sc6qV%7eD6iFhaYord6HtbjJ8MaEYPAgM/YoYo//
[16:15] <mikeDOTd> Addos: periodicly refresh the TFE page, that should get your node talking and connecting to more and more nodes
[16:15] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-245-038.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[16:15] <greycat> jay: does it have anything new on it *at all*? :)
[16:15] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-240-161.arcor-ip.net) has joined #freenet
[16:15] <jay> Not many new sites being added due to poor state of the network - but I'm not dead and I am trying.
[16:15] <jay> (from the site)
[16:16] <greycat> hmm
[16:16] <supermannn> ya it seems pretty dead
[16:16] <supermannn> :(
[16:16] <Addos> why would it die?
[16:16] * greycat should try to run a node again whenever the number of active connections drops by an order of magnitude, but this isn't a good week for me... moving to a different house.
[16:17] <jay> supermannn: it's stale.. dead is something else
[16:17] <supermannn> stale ok
[16:17] <supermannn> boring id say
[16:18] <jay> subjective
[16:18] <supermannn> well theres not much i couldnt find way faster on the regular net
[16:19] <supermannn> so you get this feeling like why bother surfing at 10KB when i could be surfing at 300
[16:19] <jay> supermannn: you obviously haven't searched very long
[16:19] <jay> supermannn: ive found things in Freenet i didn't know existed
[16:20] <greycat> I've seen things in Freenet that I *wished* didn't exist.
[16:20] <jay> lol
[16:20] <Addos> I'm finding that it would be nice if I were connected to more hosts, so I had a better experience, but it is taking so damn long
[16:20] <Addos> lots of RNFs
[16:21] <supermannn> jay things you didnt know existed?
[16:21] <supermannn> really?
[16:21] <jay> supermannn: i wouldn't have found it on the web
[16:21] <supermannn> tell me more
[16:21] <supermannn> what was it
[16:22] <jay> supermannn: it was a site that was removed from the Web and hence *dead*
[16:22] <jay> someone inserted it into Freenet
[16:22] <greycat> church of scientology stuff comes to mind
[16:22] <supermannn> hmm
[16:22] <supermannn> what site
[16:23] <jay> that's all the details ill provide
[16:23] <jay> this is IRC by the way
[16:23] <supermannn> oh god
[16:23] <supermannn> im using tor
[16:24] <supermannn> the most interesting thing i see is murder stuff, but it wont load
[16:24] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> and?
[16:24] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> what site?
[16:25] <jay> a) this is irc and public b) this site is logged
[16:25] <Addos> now if you were a terrorist, you'd want that site, but I guess you'd be SOL
[16:25] <Addos> hehe
[16:25] <jay> err this channel is logged
[16:25] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has left #freenet
[16:25] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[16:25] <jay> oops
[16:26] <supermannn> well i did a search for .com and mirror thinking id find it
[16:26] <supermannn> linux chicks, xbox-linux, letfreedc.org, insex.com
[16:26] <supermannn> all boring stuff so far
[16:26] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> what are you guys talking about?
[16:27] <jay> noone really cares that you're bored with the content
[16:27] <supermannn> no idea, he said theres something good on freenet
[16:27] <jay> Newsbyte: read the logs
[16:27] <greycat> insert something interesting and then tell us about it :)
[16:27] <supermannn> greycat i would if i knew everyone would have quick access to it
[16:27] <jay> yeah post a message to frost, since lots of the interesting content is gotten there
[16:28] <supermannn> frost bores me, most of the boards are empty and people just complain about bush all day
[16:28] <Addos> don't those people have something better to do?
[16:28] <Addos> heh
[16:29] <supermannn> i want something fun. like someone using freenet to coordinate a political movement, or something, anythings better than this kind of stuff, "A collection of Big Top comics."
[16:29] <Addos> ha
[16:29] <Addos> well, that is the thing with freenet, you can technically find anything
[16:30] <Addos> but most likely a lot of things aren't catalogged
[16:30] <jay> supermannn: frost is boring? that's where much of the interesting content is
[16:30] <jay> supermannn: mpg's and stuff that you won't find publicly
[16:31] <Addos> why is frost necessary to get it?
[16:31] <Addos> can't that stuff be found using regular old freenet?
[16:31] <jay> Addos: that's where the CHK's are posted
[16:31] <jay> how else will you find the CHK's if you don't know what they are?
[16:31] <Addos> why make a seperate application to find them?
[16:31] <Addos> why not just post them on a freenet page?
[16:31] <jay> Addos: frost is anonymous freenet-based messaging (like usenet)
[16:31] <jay> Addos: it's more dynamic
[16:32] <jay> why to people post URL's on Usenet?
[16:32] <jay> because they can
[16:32] <Addos> heh
[16:32] <jay> to=do
[16:33] <jay> it's a little easier than creating a freesite *and* getting it listed on one of the index pages
[16:33] * greycat (~wooledg@192.35.79.70) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
[16:33] <Addos> well, why isn't that capability merged into freenet?
[16:33] <Addos> why couldn't freenet, accomplish the same goals, in some of its vast html?
[16:34] <jay> freenet's intent is to provide an avenue for all kinds of things
[16:34] <jay> not specifically usenet messaging
[16:34] <supermannn> jay the only mpgs i see being posted on frost that arent normal commercial videos are underage porn
[16:34] <jay> supermannn: look more
[16:34] <supermannn> jay well i tried, but with hundreds of empty/dead boards i got tired
[16:35] <jay> supermannn: make sure frost is on autoupdate and let it run for a day
[16:35] <jay> messages will come piling in eventually
[16:36] <jay> CHK@u0bX53uXCMMvcQcCs6TgVn9H4aYOAwI,ueVRkkz5Ca3sH-qVD8Ex8w/End of suburbia.avi
[16:37] <jay> Are today's suburbs destined to become the slums of tomorrow? And what can be done NOW, individually and collectively, to avoid The End of Suburbia ?
[16:37] <jay> there's an example
[16:37] <Addos> should I change my htl?
[16:38] <supermannn> ok ill try to download it
[16:38] * Ash-Fox (Hal-9000@aac136.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
[16:38] * Ash-Foxeus (Hal-9000@aah249.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) has joined #FreeNET
[16:38] <jay> supermannn: don't expect it to work immediately
[16:39] <supermannn> damn 93mb
[16:39] <jay> that's boring
[16:39] <jay> where are all the 300 Terabyte mpgs?
[16:40] <supermannn> well at 10KB itll take awhile :)
[16:43] <supermannn> actually i could probably live with the speed... barely... if i knew it was 100% reliable
[16:43] <supermannn> then i could walk away and come back in a day
[16:44] <Addos> hehe
[16:45] <Redb3ard> bah
[16:50] <supermannn> are there any projects like freenet that might get to the end goal faster?
[16:50] <Addos> maybe entropy
[16:50] <supermannn> i thought they basically just copied freenet
[16:50] <jay> they did
[16:51] <jay> forked it specifically
[16:51] <supermannn> oh so it even uses some of its code
[16:51] <Addos> I think it is written in C++
[16:51] <jay> not the code
[16:52] <supermannn> have you tried it
[16:52] <jay> supermannn: no but the developer used to hang around here
[16:54] * guido^pe (~unknown@dsl-213-023-240-161.arcor-ip.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[16:54] <supermannn> http://f27.parsimony.net/forum66166/messages/6150.htm
[16:55] <supermannn> "I decided that I'm not actually willing to continue to work on Entropy - for a simple yet important reason: I can't tell anyone anything definite about the security or insecurity of the algorithm(s) incorporated in Entropy. There's so much lies (and secrets), it might just as well be possible that the whole McEliece stuff is a zero-function."
[16:55] <Addos> well, it definitely is faster
[16:56] <jay> Addos: yes with a 20 node network it will be
[16:56] <jay> it doesn't scale
[16:56] * kers (~kers@14.ppp145.rsd.worldonline.se) has joined #freenet
[16:56] <supermannn> does freenet scale
[16:56] <jay> supermannn: on a relative measure it scales more than entropy
[16:57] <jay> freenet ran great when it was small just like entropy
[16:57] * Hory` (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) has joined #FreeNet
[16:57] <jay> Hory`: hello
[16:58] <jay> is miranda a jabber client?
[16:58] <kers> jay: i think miranda got jabber support
[16:59] <jay> Hory`: hello?
[16:59] <kers> it got irc/icq/msn so it would be pretty stupid not to support the best protocol :D
[16:59] <jay> the clients never respond here from irc
[16:59] <kers> don't worry, i'm sure they just got you on /ignore ;D
[16:59] <jay> there's a guy running Miranda with my nick here on freenode
[16:59] <jay> im always killing him to get my nick back
[17:00] <jay> and he never responds to my messages
[17:00] <jay> so i wonder if the irc transport is even working
[17:00] <kers> kk, perhaps it's some cloaked bot
[17:02] <jay> i enjoy nick-killing him tho :)
[17:03] <supermannn> what are the odds that freenet will be amazingly different within a year
[17:04] <jay> free software isn't easily predictable
[17:04] <KenMan> isn't that a bit like asking a weatherman what the weather will be on this day next year ?
[17:04] <jay> hey ken
[17:04] <KenMan> hi
[17:04] <supermannn> no, you have an idea as to how much work is left
[17:05] <jay> heh
[17:05] <jay> supermannn: the rule with free software is; it will be done when it's finished
[17:05] <KenMan> well, that is true, we have a better understanding than ever before...
[17:05] <jay> we can't predict the unforseen problems we will encounter in 1 year from now
[17:06] <KenMan> oh yeah... :(
[17:06] * KenMan assumed that there would be no future problems
[17:06] <jay> and when sun releases Java 1.6 im sure there will be incompatibility problems ;)
[17:06] <jay> heh
[17:07] <KenMan> it's too bad really, as we have enough already to keep busy for a long time
[17:07] <supermannn> that sucks
[17:07] <jay> the whole P2P field of research is relatively new
[17:08] <supermannn> java is yucky, too bad he started with it
[17:08] <jay> at least the current ideas being thrown around.. they're not that old
[17:11] <jay> bbl
[17:33] * Hory` (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[17:38] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) has joined #FreeNet
[17:48] * TLF (francisco@100.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) has joined #freenet
[17:54] <toad__> <jay> CHK@u0bX53uXCMMvcQcCs6TgVn9H4aYOAwI,ueVRkkz5Ca3sH-qVD8Ex8w/End of suburbia.avi
[17:54] <toad__> <jay> Are today's suburbs destined to become the slums of tomorrow? And what can be done NOW, individually and collectively, to avoid The End of Suburbia ?
[17:54] <toad__> ummm
[17:54] <toad__> is that (legally) safe for me to fetch?
[17:54] <supermannn> i think so
[17:54] <supermannn> it doesnt sound illegal
[17:54] <supermannn> sounds commercial
[17:55] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@82-133-111-67.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("Lost terminal")
[17:55] <toad__> <supermannn> toad__ i want to send video messages..... if i used freenet id have maybe 100 viewers max. if i was very lucky theyd share them with the regular internet on popular p2p networks. but if i use a web server, i can instantly hit 10s of thousands of viewers - how, exactly? How are you going to pay the enormous bandwidth costs without advertising?
[17:55] <supermannn> bandwidth is cheap as hell
[17:57] <toad__> <Addos> chinese people using freenet might also
[17:57] <toad__> <Addos> just for using freenet
[17:57] <toad__> sure
[17:57] <toad__> so what?
[17:57] <toad__> supermannn: no it isn't
[17:57] <toad__> supermannn: not for large files
[17:57] <toad__> try running a major Sims mod site sometime
[17:57] <toad__> bandwidth is a big deal
[17:58] <toad__> OSS has no bw problems because of a) megacorps and b) universities
[17:58] <toad__> I'
[17:58] <toad__> I
[17:58] <toad__> I'm not saying freenet is perfect for chinese dissidents. I'm saying it's better than the alternatives!
[17:59] <toad__> as in "democracy is the worst of all possible systems... except for all the others!"
[17:59] <supermannn> get an unmetered server
[17:59] * ninja_ (~im10ninja@82-133-111-67.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #freenet
[18:00] <toad__> <jay> Addos: yes authories will know you are using Freenet
[18:00] <toad__> <jay> Addos: but that in itself (currently) is not a crime
[18:00] <supermannn> no, democracy is complete crap. it is mob rules, if i lived in a democracy id run away
[18:00] <toad__> IMHO Freenet has a better chance of being adapted to really hostile environments than most other options do
[18:00] <toad__> supermannn: okay, parliamentary democracy then :)
[18:00] <toad__> supermannn: it's a quote IIRC from Churchill
[18:00] <jay> there are no democracues
[18:00] <jay> spell
[18:00] <jay> whenever i use that word i surround it in quotes
[18:01] <jay> the US isn't technically even a Republic
[18:01] <jay> it's an Aristocracy
[18:01] <toad__> <supermannn> jay i understand, it doesnt matter, once the entire net is locked and the will of the people is distorted with propaganda psychological influence, then freenets schemes will be pointless. it WILL be removed - once the whole of cyberspace is so heavily regulated and licensed that we need to, we will build, buy, and traffic in, contraband hardware, and we'll use heavy stego
[18:02] <toad__> <supermannn> jay yes, and i see it happening... ive seen it happening for a long time. ive been bbsing since the 80s, and got heavy into the net since the early to mid 90s, and ive witnessed the amazing shift from a small community to the massive commercial wasteland. but theres still hope.... theres hope because the internet right now provides you and me with an EQUAL platform comparable to huge corporations and authorities. wit
[18:02] <toad__> marketing, we can do some
[18:03] <toad__> not quite
[18:03] <toad__> bandwidth costs major $
[18:03] <toad__> and there are major issues of freedom/money tradeoffs just like in realspace
[18:05] <toad__> <mikeDOTd> call me crazy, but maybe "the people" should get politicly active so "the government" represents "the people" - LOL. that's the problem. half of them don't vote, 99% of them disagree with us, and 90%+ of them follow the mainstream right wing defence contractor owned authoritarian media :). Revolution comes from the transforming of minds. </otflame>
[18:06] <supermannn> anyways, lets say you released a 100mb of video weekly, and each was downloaded around 10,000 times
[18:06] <supermannn> 4,000,000 mb a month
[18:06] <supermannn> thats cheap
[18:06] <toad__> ugh, woolly libertarian tax evading idiots alert...
[18:06] <jay> or troll
[18:06] <jay> brb
[18:06] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) Quit ("Client exiting")
[18:06] <toad__> supermannn: 4TB/mo is cheap?!
[18:08] <toad__> <supermannn> mikeDOTd ya, democracy sucks. id be burned by christians - uh, not by me. And not by any actual xtians. But by a lot of assholes who use it as a convenient political rallying cry, perhaps.
[18:08] <supermannn> sure, 1 tb is around a hundred bux
[18:09] <toad__> <Addos> I'm finding that it would be nice if I were connected to more hosts, so I had a better experience, but it is taking so damn long
[18:09] <toad__> <Addos> lots of RNFs
[18:09] <toad__> I told you, give it 24 hours... at least...
[18:11] <toad__> hmmm... why don't people run CHK indexes that pick up all valid keys posted on a frost board?
[18:12] <supermannn> why
[18:13] <toad__> <supermannn> well at 10KB itll take awhile :) - splitfiles move faster than regular pages...
[18:13] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #freenet
[18:13] <supermannn> well the indicator on the freenet stats says im getting 3KB for splitfiles
[18:14] <supermannn> 12KB total download though
[18:15] <toad__> <supermannn> it doesnt sound illegal
[18:15] <toad__> <supermannn> sounds commercial
[18:15] <toad__> uhhh, that's the same thing...
[18:16] <toad__> supermannn: well you could stop the splitfile
[18:16] <toad__> and restart it with 90 threads...
[18:16] <supermannn> does it lose the data?
[18:16] <toad__> supermannn: have you tried to run a high traffic non profit no adverts website lately?
[18:17] <toad__> supermannn: 400 bucks a month? who's going to be able to afford that if they don't make significant dosh from it?
[18:17] <supermannn> i try to make all my sites non profit, but no one goes to the non profit ones. its like they want commercial stuff with gimmics
[18:17] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> who hasn't?
[18:17] <toad__> supermannn: no
[18:17] <supermannn> no what
[18:18] <toad__> supermannn: they don't want BANNER ADVERTS
[18:18] <toad__> if you're sellling something maybe they want to buy it
[18:18] <toad__> but they don't want banner ads
[18:18] <supermannn> i think they do want ads
[18:18] <toad__> if you're running a 100GB/mo site for your hobby, you will have some financial issues with it, which result in adding banner ads
[18:19] <toad__> probably nasty obtrusive ones
[18:19] <supermannn> 100gb is real cheap
[18:19] <toad__> if freenet ever works really really well and has 100,000 users+, then we may be able to help people in that sort of market
[18:19] <supermannn> doesnt sound like that will be soon though
[18:19] <toad__> supermannn: not that cheap. you called 400 bucks a month cheap. suppose somebody's 100MB/week of video is produced in their free time?
[18:20] <toad__> supermannn: they can't afford 400 bucks a month for it, generally. now some of us may be able to, but many of us won't.
[18:20] <toad__> anyway
[18:20] <toad__> lets get back on topic
[18:20] <toad__> freenet sucks for new users...
[18:20] <toad__> have you restarted that splitfile with 90 threads?
[18:20] <supermannn> can i hit cancel without losing the data? is it in the local store?
[18:20] <toad__> it should move a bit faster, although it'll DoS your node a bit...
[18:21] <toad__> yes, you can cancel, some of the data will be cached
[18:21] <toad__> not all of it but the increase in speed will compensate
[18:21] <KenMan> it takes time for new users to adapt to the network, no ? And I don't mean their nodes...
[18:21] <toad__> and it should help it learn
[18:21] <toad__> KenMan: LOL
[18:21] <toad__> KenMan: well, that's our fault
[18:21] <toad__> how do we make new nodes work better faster?
[18:21] <KenMan> it will all get better in time...
[18:22] <toad__> IMHO reducing # conns will make it take LONGER for new nodes to bootstrap...
[18:22] <toad__> because conns will be rejected...
[18:22] <KenMan> but they have more data concentrated on them over a period of time, no ?
[18:22] <KenMan> oh, i get you
[18:24] <toad__> KenMan: IMHO one of the biggest things (apart from making conns faster) is improving routing
[18:24] <toad__> routing bootstrapping
[18:24] <toad__> and my preferred way to do this is fixed small filesizes
[18:27] <KenMan> do you mean, preferred over using fewer connections, or compared to something else ?
[18:27] <toad__> of course we need to implement premix routing first :)
[18:27] <toad__> KenMan: the one that seems to make most sense to me
[18:28] <KenMan> but you still plan queueing before key-fixing, or are you rethinking that ?
[18:28] <jay> toad__: what key in mutt brings you to the "mailboxes list" ?
[18:28] <toad__> KenMan: definitely
[18:28] <toad__> jay: c i think
[18:29] <jay> toad__: that works.. ty
[18:29] * kers (~kers@14.ppp145.rsd.worldonline.se) Quit ("Leaving")
[18:30] <jay> toad__: my kde install is temporarily hosed so im using mutt in an xterm
[18:31] * Overand (common@80.103.252.64.snet.net) has joined #freenet
[18:31] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> "I'm not totally ignorant of the needs of the users,
[18:31] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> *cough* -*cough*
[18:31] <Overand> yikes.
[18:31] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> ;-)
[18:31] * joltrush1oon (josh@mir.stevecole.org) has left #freenet
[18:31] <Overand> Well, seems a lot's changed since I was here last.
[18:36] <toad__> Overand: it has?
[18:41] <Overand> toad__: the experimental for being terminated, for example
[18:41] <Overand> there was a lot of talk about that fork when i was here last
[18:41] <Overand> and talk about a complete network reset
[18:41] <toad__> ah
[18:42] <iip_i2p> <lucky> toad: should the seednodes really be 25 mb in size?
[18:42] <jay> lotta traffic on frost
[18:42] <iip_i2p> <lucky> toad: should the seednodes really be 25 mb in size?
[18:42] <jay> lucky: it should not be that big, but it should contain all the same info
[18:43] <Overand> hm
[18:43] <Overand> i still get a lot of Couldn't Retrieve Key (couldn't connect to the network)
[18:43] <Overand> node's only been up for an hour or so though
[18:43] <jay> run frost for a while until messages start coming in
[18:44] <jay> not the best way but it works
[18:44] <supermannn> post to frost too
[18:44] <Overand> hm, never used frost
[18:44] <toad__> hmmm
[18:44] <toad__> where was i?
[18:44] <toad__> going through some logfiles...
[18:45] <leex> any one mide me been mody
[18:46] <leex> left me car keys in my boot of me car :(
[18:46] <jay> heh
[18:46] <jay> so you're moody then?
[18:46] <leex> yes
[18:46] <leex> more yes
[18:46] <Overand> not to get into flatform wars, but my god, firefox w/ "all-in-one gestures" is *great*
[18:46] <Overand> so ergonomic
[18:46] <iip_i2p> <lucky> cuz a new install is going to be downloading a 25 mb file...
[18:46] <iip_i2p> <lucky> cuz a new install is going to be downloading a 25 mb file...
[18:46] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> what the f- is wrong with the freenet-website?
[18:46] <jay> Overand: that won't start a flamewar
[18:47] <jay> Overand: freeBSD is useless to me.. linux is so much better
[18:47] <iip_i2p> <lucky> cuz a new install is going to be downloading a 25 mb file...
[18:47] <jay> that *could* start one
[18:47] <leex> becoes the spare keys is at an other house and thay have gone north somewhare
[18:47] <jay> leex: the "boot" of your car?
[18:47] * leex is now known as leex-key-less
[18:47] <leex-key-less> yes
[18:48] <leex-key-less> fiat Puntos have an stuped boot
[18:48] <jay> leex-key-less: i mean what is the boot?
[18:48] <toad__> lucky: no it isn't, it's compressed
[18:48] <leex-key-less> fs
[18:48] <leex-key-less> lol
[18:48] <leex-key-less> the back of the kay?
[18:48] <leex-key-less> car
[18:48] <jay> leex-key-less: ah
[18:48] <leex-key-less> lol
[18:48] <jay> who says "the boot" ?
[18:48] <jay> heh
[18:48] <leex-key-less> what you call yours
[18:48] * jay says, "it's in the trunk"
[18:49] <jay> im a new yorker
[18:49] <leex-key-less> USA
[18:49] <jay> or.. "it's in the back"
[18:49] <jay> leex-key-less: yeah that one
[18:49] <supermannn> boot? wow thats retarded, its called the slipper
[18:49] <leex-key-less> lol
[18:49] <leex-key-less> stioll not happy
[18:49] <leex-key-less> still
[18:50] <jay> leex-key-less: u can't jimmy your own car?
[18:50] <leex-key-less> lol
[18:50] * toad__ is tempted to declare a policy of kicking anyone who gossips about cars...
[18:50] <iip_i2p> <lucky> what about freeBSD? useless? >=|
[18:50] <toad__> still it's been extremely off-topic so far today...
[18:50] <leex-key-less> lol
[18:50] <toad__> lucky: eh?
[18:50] <jay> toad__: im all for it.. but do the same for space travel conversations
[18:50] <Overand> hm, is the java 1.3.1 VM too old?
[18:50] <toad__> Overand: yes
[18:50] <Overand> ah
[18:50] <toad__> jay: that's the problem ;)
[18:51] <Overand> Yeah
[18:51] <Overand> THat's odd.
[18:51] <leex-key-less> i still getting timed out msg in stable
[18:51] <Overand> I could have sworn I upgraded that.
[18:51] <toad__> anyway i wasn't aware of any complaints at the time
[18:51] <Overand> ugh
[18:51] <jay> the latest 1.3.x will work yes?
[18:51] <Overand> sun's site is terrible
[18:51] * toad__ registers a complaint: I don't have a car and I don't give a ribbit how to jerry them
[18:52] <toad__> jay: no
[18:52] <Overand> the network is the computer, but the web designer is 13.
[18:52] <toad__> 1.4.1 or later ONLY
[18:52] <jay> Overand: lol
[18:52] <jay> Overand: their site was never really slick
[18:52] <Overand> and *never* go to java.sun.com
[18:52] <Overand> "YOU ALREADY HAVE JAVA!"
[18:52] <Overand> 'really.'
[18:52] <jay> well toad, i use a small screwdriver to jimmy me wrangler
[18:53] <leex-key-less> (bit stuped as well as it has all my driveing stuffin there like drivers card as well :( )
[18:53] <leex-key-less> and i am parting with it in 3 days omg
[18:53] <jay> it's tea-time
[18:53] <leex-key-less> getting an blue one
[18:53] <leex-key-less> :)
[18:53] <jay> leex-key-less: would u like some tea?
[18:53] <jay> heh
[18:53] <Overand> /n/n
[18:53] <Overand> ugh
[18:53] * leex-key-less is now known as leex-backto-free
[18:54] <leex-backto-free> toad__
[18:54] <leex-backto-free> i got the timeout msg in me stable but it seems to be working
[18:54] <jay> toad__: ah right 1.4.1 or later.. forgot about nio
[18:54] <leex-backto-free> k
[18:55] <leex-backto-free> so its not an bug
[18:55] <leex-backto-free> www.sun.com ?
[18:55] <leex-backto-free> :)
[18:55] <jay> leex-backto-free: i think he knows about that bug.. it's not critical but shows something isn't perfect
[18:55] <toad__> jay: what bug?
[18:55] <Overand> man
[18:55] <jay> sun.com is a bug?
[18:55] <toad__> leex-backto-free: which timeout?
[18:55] <leex-backto-free> www.java.com
[18:56] <Overand> the JRE installer really drags ass
[18:56] <Overand> I love windows installers.
[18:56] <leex-backto-free> 17-Aug-2004 00:17:50 (freenet.support.io.NIOInputStream, YThread-131, NORMAL): waited more than 120000ms in NIOIS.read() tcp/connection: 2441>213.215.153.37:2222,freenet.transport.tcpConnection@a22267:freenet.support.io.NIOInputStream@80a4d3- closing
[18:56] <leex-backto-free> java.lang.Exception: debug
[18:56] <toad__> ahh, that one
[18:56] <toad__> not quite sure what causes it...
[18:56] <Overand> I don't even know why I still use windows. my mail client and browser are available on linux, and the app i spend most of my time in is 'putty'
[18:56] <jay> Overand: that was quick.. hey you're really not a noob ;)
[18:56] <toad__> LOL
[18:56] <Overand> jay: no, i'm not
[18:57] <toad__> no, you're thinking of klirker
[18:57] <jay> i joked.. it's obvious
[18:57] <jay> toad__: lol
[18:57] <Overand> heh.
[18:57] <jay> yeah
[18:57] <leex-backto-free> its an shit way to install programs makeing an installer that looks like an windows install of the hdd
[18:57] <leex-backto-free> but its installing it of the internet
[18:57] <jay> today was a weird day in this channel.. im glad the logbot caught it all
[18:57] <leex-backto-free> hmm
[18:57] <toad__> jay: highlights?
[18:57] <jay> heh
[18:58] <jay> ill get some in a sec
[18:58] * toad__ makes a diff for his latest trivial log-driven changes to unstable...
[18:58] <toad__> the volume of NORMAL|ERROR messages has decreased significantly...
[18:59] <Overand> hm
[18:59] * Overand downloads new node references
[18:59] <toad__> btw is everyone here who does unstable on 60197? I need it tested, and I need it tested SOON
[18:59] <toad__> so that I can merge it
[18:59] <leex-backto-free> :)
[18:59] <leex-backto-free> i am here
[19:01] <jay> show-off
[19:01] <leex-backto-free> lol
[19:02] <toad__> okay, /me commits 60198... nothing major...
[19:02] <toad__> hmmm
[19:02] <toad__> anyone got an unstable node I could peer with for push/pull tests? it occurs to me that I haven't done any in ages...
[19:03] <leex-backto-free> is it just NGRT that i need to delete
[19:03] <leex-backto-free> i will in an min
[19:04] <jay> [14:56] <supermannn> KlirKer may i ask what made you want to install freenet?
[19:04] <jay> [14:56] <supermannn> this is like geek type stuff, but you seem too clueless to be a geek :)
[19:05] <leex-backto-free> fs stuped bug with log viewer
[19:05] <jay> [15:09] <supermannn> why is that doubtful? people have already used the anti terror laws for all kinds of wacko things. if the terrorists make a nice little home on freenet and its allowing them to progress, and expand, and freenet is an obstacle for law enforcement to get to them, then theyll do whatever is possible
[19:05] <jay> [15:09] <oylerj> are you some kind of rainman, that you could read the encrypted packets in tcpdump as they arrived at your node?
[19:06] <leex-backto-free> that is an big stuped but in freenet.exe
[19:06] <leex-backto-free> bug
[19:06] * Overand wonders what his friends who accuse him of being 'paranoid' for liking to use SSH and not wanting to send passwords plaintext would think about freenet
[19:07] <jay> Overand: my non-techie friends think one day ill just disappear
[19:07] <supermannn> why are you paranoid
[19:07] <toad__> LOL jay
[19:07] <toad__> are they libertarian lunatics
[19:07] <toad__> ?
[19:07] <jay> [15:22] <Addos> freenet wouldn't be worth the effort for a terrorist, if 50 to 75% of the time, the content weren't available
[19:07] <supermannn> are you osama?
[19:07] <jay> paranoid?
[19:07] <jay> supermannn: you're back
[19:07] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:08] <toad__> jay: the channel logs should be inserted into freenet on a regular basis!
[19:08] <toad__> perhaps a DBR!
[19:08] <leex-backto-free> grr how do i kill an prosses that will not kill
[19:08] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[19:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[19:08] <jay> toad__: lol
[19:08] <toad__> that would IMHO help to involve the community... :)
[19:08] <jay> toad__: some of it is real funny
[19:08] <supermannn> im back? i havent left
[19:08] <toad__> :)
[19:08] <toad__> of course the pages are bigger than a meg each, right?
[19:08] <toad__> so I suppose it probably couldn't be easily done - but it could be done with some work...
[19:09] <leex-backto-free> grr stuped the java freenet is locked open
[19:09] <jay> toad__: average page is aroung 300K uncompressed
[19:09] <toad__> jay: cool
[19:09] <leex-backto-free> how do i KILL IT
[19:09] <toad__> jay: perhaps put each in its own zip manifest?
[19:09] <toad__> leex-backto-free: ummm
[19:09] <jay> leex-backto-free: killall -9 java
[19:10] <leex-backto-free> win2k ?
[19:10] <supermannn> end process tree?
[19:10] <jay> toad__: perhaps but someone else will have to do *that*
[19:10] <leex-backto-free> it says you cant do it
[19:10] <toad__> leex-backto-free: task manager?
[19:10] <toad__> jay: which?
[19:10] <jay> ill make sure the logger actually gets the data
[19:10] <toad__> okay
[19:10] <leex-backto-free> freenet is working but i want to stop it
[19:10] <jay> toad__: i thought about inserting the logs into freenet with an elaborate plan but not yet
[19:10] * toad__ has a bunch of on-freenet-stuff that he might get around to some day
[19:11] <toad__> e.g. I have a couple things to add to the flog
[19:11] <toad__> the rest I could tell you about but I'd have to kill you afterwards ;)
[19:11] <jay> toad__: oh i got some plans
[19:11] <leex-backto-free> toad__ the Binding handle is invaid
[19:11] <jay> they all rest on fcplib
[19:11] <toad__> the question is, does adding already written stuff to my flog count as $work?
[19:11] <toad__> leex-backto-free: eh?
[19:11] <jay> toad__: doubtful
[19:12] <leex-backto-free> stuped Freent LOG was open when i told it to restart ffs
[19:12] <Overand> Just out of curiosity, has anyone used waste? what are your opinions on blowfish (pbcb)
[19:12] <toad__> Frost has had surprisingly little effect on my node's thread usage...
[19:12] <toad__> blowfish is reasonable
[19:12] <toad__> twofish is better
[19:12] <toad__> AES is even better... perhaps
[19:12] <jay> [15:24] <Addos> but no one suspected an attack of the scale of 9/11
[19:12] <Overand> yeah
[19:12] <jay> [15:24] <Redb3ard> addos, and those attacks were coordinated in a country that has less than 100 phone lines
[19:12] <verl> toad: how do we test the things you want tested on unstable?
[19:12] <Overand> I would love to see AES get rolled into Waste, but the current maintainer seems convinced that blowfish is 100% adequate
[19:13] <verl> just general usability?
[19:13] <toad__> okay
[19:13] <toad__> how do I increase the number of boards in my Frost client rapidly?
[19:13] * TLF (francisco@100.Red-81-40-113.pooles.rima-tde.net) Quit ("http://www.vitaliano.esp.cc || Adi?s a todos y a todas y que les vaya bien.")
[19:13] <toad__> verl: just use it, do whatever it is you think will test it
[19:13] <toad__> report any wierdnesses
[19:14] <jay> toad__: just add boards by clicking on the Globe up top
[19:14] <jay> then let it auto refresh
[19:14] <jay> u can select multiples actually
[19:14] <leex-backto-free> any one know how to hard kill an prosses on WIN2k with out A. rebooting the computer (start shut down) B.not useing taskman
[19:15] <toad__> leex-backto-free: why cna't you use taskman?
[19:15] <Ash-Foxeus> leex-backto-free, I use proccess explorer
[19:15] <jay> there's a kill command
[19:15] <leex-backto-free> becoes freenet.exe has locked it out
[19:16] <jay> leex-backto-free: nah freenet didn't do that
[19:16] <toad__> it has? I doubt it...
[19:16] <jay> spyware perhaps
[19:16] <leex-backto-free> and it will not get to it to send the kill switch to it
[19:16] <leex-backto-free> you want to bet
[19:16] <jay> no
[19:16] <jay> anything is possible
[19:16] <leex-backto-free> open up the log and open up config and chage soemthing
[19:16] <Ash-Foxeus> leex-backto-free, got sp2 for winxp?
[19:16] <jay> just doesn't seem likely
[19:17] <leex-backto-free> and say yes to restart freenet
[19:17] <leex-backto-free> with the log open
[19:17] <leex-backto-free> the freenet.exe one
[19:17] * Ash-Foxeus wounders if leex-backto-free is even listening
[19:17] <leex-backto-free> there is an command to kill it by cmd
[19:18] <toad__> hmmm
[19:18] <toad__> do even the small files go through the push/pull process now? eeek
[19:18] <jay> leex-backto-free: i would if i wasn't in linux right now
[19:18] <leex-backto-free> supose i have to log out so windows does its magic on end tasking it
[19:19] * Ash-Foxeus notes that freenet may freeze up on winxp sp2, due to the socket limits imposed
[19:19] <toad__> woah, cell phreaking howto's on Frost... there's some actual content...
[19:19] <Redb3ard> yes
[19:19] <jay> toad__: i told u :)
[19:19] <toad__> apparently ORIGINAL content too
[19:19] <leex-backto-free> brb
[19:19] <toad__> unless the guy renamed it...
[19:19] <toad__> or cloned his name :)
[19:19] <leex-backto-free> (OS) Windows 2000 Enterprise Server, Service Pack 4 (5.0 - 2195), (installed for) 78w 1d 16h 53m, (uptime) 5w 2d 1h 50m 22s, (record) 10w 1d 42m 38s (set on 06.02.2004 23:34 using Win2K)
[19:19] <Redb3ard> if you want more than 10 packets leaving the interface per minute, you need to contact a windows sales rep
[19:19] <jay> the frost program sucks sort of.. but theres decent content
[19:19] * leex-backto-free (~bbtt@cpc2-warr1-5-0-cust27.bagu.cable.ntl.com) Quit ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )")
[19:20] <jay> leex-backto-free: a simple "im running 2K" would suffice
[19:20] <toad__> the guy who wrote it isn't doing much to stay anon though
[19:20] <jay> toad__: most people just repaste stuff
[19:20] <jay> toad__: they've repasted your emails a few times
[19:21] <jay> "south philly cru" is taking over frost apparantly
[19:22] <iip_i2p> <lucky> boooo hisss. Windows.
[19:22] <supermannn> [09:34] <toad__> im gonna send you some donkey porn
[19:22] <supermannn> [09:35] <supermannn> cool
[19:23] <Ash-Foxeus> is the stable network useable?
[19:23] <supermannn> no
[19:23] <supermannn> almost, sometimes
[19:23] * |UK-Monster| (~bbtt@cpc2-warr1-5-0-cust27.bagu.cable.ntl.com) has joined #freenet
[19:23] <jay> supermannn: u even know where im getting this crap from?
[19:23] <|UK-Monster|> lame bug
[19:23] <supermannn> jay what?
[19:24] * |UK-Monster| is now known as lexx
[19:24] <Redb3ard> guys, you probably hate to compare freenet to the internet itself...
[19:24] <jay> the channel logs
[19:24] <toad__> supermannn: uh, whatever
[19:24] <supermannn> jay ya i know
[19:24] <Redb3ard> but just what internet services are most analogous to whats possible with freenet?
[19:24] <toad__> Redb3ard: freenet runs on top of the internet itself
[19:24] <toad__> Redb3ard: lots
[19:24] <Redb3ard> you were talking about a usenettish thing
[19:24] <Redb3ard> frost, was it?
[19:24] <toad__> web browsing
[19:24] <toad__> file sharing
[19:24] <toad__> usenet
[19:25] <toad__> email
[19:25] <jay> Redb3ard: frost is the usenet-over-freenet app
[19:25] <Ash-Foxeus> trolling
[19:25] <jay> not actual usenet, usenet like
[19:25] <Redb3ard> email should be pretty doable too, right?
[19:25] <toad__> probably lots of stuff we haven't thought of yet
[19:25] <jay> Ash-Foxeus: heh
[19:25] <Redb3ard> hah
[19:25] <toad__> jay: there was one that did actual usenet proxy...
[19:25] <Redb3ard> wouldnt be usenettish without trolling
[19:25] <Redb3ard> i assumed that was a given
[19:25] * Hory (~Miranda@81.196.25.110) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
[19:25] <toad__> Redb3ard: there is FreeMail...
[19:25] <iip_i2p> <lucky> redb3ard: yea, it's been done
[19:25] <Ash-Foxeus> the one that takes 100% cpu :D
[19:25] <iip_i2p> <lucky> freemail, never did work well for me, but i didn't try to get it working too hard
[19:25] <toad__> :)
[19:26] <toad__> I don't use it much because I rarely run a stable node and there's little point running freemail over unstable...
[19:26] <Redb3ard> so of all the core services, irc is the only one that cant be done so well?
[19:26] <toad__> when I have 2 CPUs I'll run FreeMail...
[19:26] * Ash-Foxeus adds iip_i2p to ignore
[19:26] <toad__> Redb3ard: yeah
[19:26] <jay> toad__: i heard of that gateway but never tried it
[19:26] <toad__> anything that requires real time response, rather than cached content, is not feasible for 1.0
[19:26] <supermannn> irc over freenet would be funny
[19:26] <toad__> perhaps not feasible at all
[19:27] <Redb3ard> i still like my approach
[19:27] <Redb3ard> but a 75% score for freenet isnt so bad at all
[19:27] <supermannn> score?
[19:27] <jay> i guess turn-based games would kinda work on freenet
[19:27] <toad__> hmmm
[19:27] <supermannn> jay but whats the point
[19:27] <toad__> KenMan said Frost messes your node up
[19:27] <Redb3ard> hmm
[19:27] <toad__> my experience so far does not reflect that
[19:27] <Redb3ard> thats a thought
[19:27] <Redb3ard> freechess
[19:27] <supermannn> heh
[19:28] <Redb3ard> hell, not just chess, even something like master of orion
[19:28] <toad__> Redb3ard: empire?
[19:28] <jay> toad__: it could starve the node of routes for splitfile-type data i recall someone saying
[19:28] <jay> Redb3ard: yeah
[19:28] <supermannn> freenet is for freedom, not games!
[19:28] <Redb3ard> that could be cool
[19:28] <jay> anything non-realtime
[19:28] <toad__> jay: well i'm not downloading any splitfiles atm...
[19:28] <Redb3ard> bah
[19:28] <Redb3ard> i have an idea supermann..
[19:29] <Redb3ard> lets make sure we only use freenet for truly important, revolutionary stuff
[19:29] <jay> toad__: frost might train a node to become great at finding little tiny files only
[19:29] <jay> toad__: i think u mentioned that once
[19:29] <supermannn> Redb3ard just a little bit of focus is all i ask
[19:29] <Redb3ard> that way, when they try to legislate it out of existence, we wont have any mundane uses as an excuse
[19:29] <toad__> Redb3ard: LOL
[19:29] <jay> heh
[19:29] <Redb3ard> any anonymous network that is going to work, has to be at least 50% mundane stuff, in my opinion
[19:30] <supermannn> Redb3ard we dont need excuses. freedom of speech, in theory, is supported by the majority of my country
[19:30] <jay> ugh more trolling
[19:30] <toad__> supermannn: except for freedom of speech for People We Don't Like
[19:30] <toad__> such as terrorists, paedophiles, and so on
[19:30] <toad__> but lets not troll :)
[19:30] <toad__> take it to #freenet-chat, or #freenet-politics, I'm auto-logged-in there as well on startup
[19:30] <jay> freenet is not giving birth to some stupid revolution.. get over it Che
[19:31] <Redb3ard> heck, even i dont think terrorist should have the absolute freedom of speech as others
[19:31] <supermannn> toad__ ya, so.. no ones stopping people from joining in and bitching about those they hate
[19:31] <Redb3ard> you wanna know what i worry about?
[19:31] <jay> it stores and serves files anonymously and that's it
[19:31] <Redb3ard> someone in the armed forces not being able to be a whistleblower
[19:31] <supermannn> jay its entire existence is for 1 reason, freedom through obscurity
[19:31] <Redb3ard> there are those that would take away their freedome of speech too
[19:31] <jay> Redb3ard: currently the penalty for blowing the whistle as a military person could be death
[19:32] <jay> supermannn: not intangible "freedom", privacy and anonymity
[19:32] <jay> supermannn: you've blown Freenet's purpose way out of proportion
[19:32] <jay> supermannn: and if i had to guess you sound like a mole
[19:32] <Redb3ard> jay, the incursion of censorship goes much farther than terrorists and paedophiles, in my opin
[19:32] <toad__> I have observed that when multiple search requests are made for the same
[19:32] <toad__> key before the earlier ones have finished searching then if the earlier
[19:32] <toad__> request finds and returns the data, but the later requests fail then
[19:32] <Redb3ard> thats all im trying to say
[19:32] <toad__> the key is apparently removed from the datastore and the key has to be
[19:32] <toad__> searched for all over again the next time it's required.
[19:32] <supermannn> jay a rodent?
[19:33] <toad__> Redb3ard: of course it does, but they justify it for the masses
[19:33] <jay> Redb3ard: i agree with the idea
[19:33] <toad__> CofE's bug report...
[19:33] <toad__> I don't know how to attack this... I suppose I need to reproduce it...
[19:34] <toad__> on a non-full datastore...
[19:35] <Redb3ard> anyone want to tell me what they think of bridging 2 dissimilar anonymous networks?
[19:35] <toad__> Redb3ard: how?
[19:36] * lexx allswitch to freenet ?
[19:36] <Redb3ard> toad, for instance, if everyone on metanet, setup a freenet node on his metanet box, but just one (probably mine) connected to greater freenet
[19:36] <Redb3ard> thats just one example
[19:36] <Redb3ard> not necessarily the best
[19:37] <lexx> set upload to 1k heh
[19:38] * toad__ attempts to reproduce CofE's thingy...
[19:38] <lexx> thingi?
[19:38] <jay> eww that's gross
[19:38] * jay makes a face at toad
[19:38] <toad__> yay, a freesite for FreeMail
[19:38] <toad__> jay: his bug report
[19:38] <jay> toad__: duh really? :)
[19:38] * lexx makes an more of an look at jay
[19:41] <lexx> me thinks i made him jump
[19:41] <jay> he always jumps.. he's a frog
[19:41] <lexx> lo love this one
[19:41] <lexx> 17-Aug-2004 01:04:23 (freenet.node.states.data.EatData, YThread-12, NORMAL): Connection died while eating data,
[19:41] <toad__> hmmm
[19:41] <toad__> Usually the easiest way to get it to happen is to try accessing TFE on
[19:41] <toad__> a clean node and then monitoring the 'Current Downloads' display as you
[19:41] <toad__> launch several attempts. Because ALL keys seem to be moving through Freenet
[19:41] <toad__> incredibly slowly ATM for some reason, it's suddenly a lot easier to
[19:41] <toad__> watch for a partial transfer of the final TFE container key and then
[19:41] <toad__> initate a new request before the earlier one has a chance to complete.
[19:41] * Hadaka (naked@naked.iki.fi) Quit (Ping timeout: 14400 seconds)
[19:42] * Hadaka_ is now known as Hadaka
[19:42] <toad__> any suggestions as to big container freesites to try this on?
[19:44] <jay> Newsbyte: u there?
[19:44] <lexx> dono
[19:44] <toad__> Imagine my surprise when I found on a number of tests that without the
[19:44] <toad__> distribution servlet causing those RNFs my initial attempts to access
[19:44] <toad__> freesites were suddenly a lot more successful. Oh, I still got the instant
[19:44] <toad__> RNFs, but certainly not even half as many as before.
[19:44] <toad__> The end result of all this was a new node that seemed to visibly integrate
[19:44] <toad__> into Freenet a LOT faster than before. I suggest you should look into
[19:44] <toad__> changing the way the distribution servlet works so that it doesn't place
[19:44] <toad__> such a strain on the rate limiting logic of new nodes.
[19:44] <toad__> hrrm...
[19:44] <toad__> well queueing will of course improve it significantly...
[19:45] * Ash-Foxeus watching freenet with his firewall... so far it doesn't seem to be connected anywhere... the newunstable doesn't have a working network?
[19:45] <lexx> got 50 here
[19:46] <lexx> ops
[19:46] <lexx> 55
[19:46] <Ash-Foxeus> lots of "17-Aug-2004 02:04:34 (freenet.node.Main$InsertARK, YThread-8, NORMAL): RouteNotFound Inserting ARK" messages in the log
[19:46] <Redb3ard> hmm
[19:46] <Redb3ard> FreeMoo
[19:46] <Redb3ard> the freenet master of orion game
[19:46] <toad__> Ash-Foxeus: strange
[19:47] <toad__> I thought I'd got rid of that
[19:47] <toad__> what build number running?
[19:47] <supermannn> oh man i just thought of a great use for freenet
[19:47] <supermannn> porn!
[19:47] <toad__> Ash-Foxeus: the newunstable was ditched remember?
[19:47] <Ash-Foxeus> Build: 60158 Load: 2 %
[19:47] <toad__> supermannn: you're not the first person to have that thought...
[19:47] <toad__> sadly
[19:47] <supermannn> i know its a joke
[19:47] <Ash-Foxeus> toad__, uhm, I just got it off the http://freenetproject.org/snapshots/ page
[19:47] <toad__> Ash-Foxeus: upgrade...
[19:48] <toad__> hmmm which file?
[19:48] <lexx> hmm i am seeing 60198 nodes
[19:48] <Ash-Foxeus> freenet-newunstable.jar
[19:48] <supermannn> make a freenet voting machine
[19:48] <toad__> Ash-Foxeus: get freenet-unstable-latest.jar instead :)
[19:48] <toad__> supermannn: eeeeee
[19:48] <Ash-Foxeus> okay
[19:48] <supermannn> lol
[19:49] <lexx> i need sleep any way
[19:49] * lexx is now known as lexx-ZZzz
[19:50] <toad__> does CofE insert into unstable?
[19:50] <lexx-ZZzz> lol like like what you have done
[19:50] <lexx-ZZzz> Open ConnectionManager Contents
[19:51] <lexx-ZZzz> do ot think so
[19:51] <lexx-ZZzz> it mite be cached from some nodes (as i have moded from stabe agane)
[19:51] <lexx-ZZzz> moved!!
[19:52] <lexx-ZZzz> F i need sleep
[19:52] <lexx-ZZzz> nn
[19:52] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:52] <supermannn> make a freesite called, "confession booth" where people can insert some text of their most embarrassing secret
[19:53] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[19:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[19:53] <toad__> supermannn: sounds like a plan...
[19:54] <jay> supermannn: heh
[19:54] <toad__> okay, should I a) go to bed, b) make a start on queueing, c) continue trying to reproduce CofE's bug, d) build a client-cache, e) look into making fproxy fetches die when the conn does, f) look into request coalescing?
[19:54] <jay> it's too early for bed
[19:54] <jay> even for u
[19:54] <toad__> i see no evidence of CofE's bug on unstable...
[19:55] <toad__> there are remarkably few NORMAL or ERROR messages in my log...
[19:55] <jay> well im going to work on my mutt send-hooks
[19:55] <jay> kmail hates me
[19:55] * toad__ wonders why people use GUI mail clients
[19:56] <lexx-ZZzz> i use web based
[19:56] <toad__> so you can read the pornographic spam, yay!
[19:56] <lexx-ZZzz> lol
[19:56] <lexx-ZZzz> ..
[19:56] <jay> exactly
[19:56] <jay> kmail is great when kde isn't being rolled out
[19:56] * Ash-Foxeus wounders why javaw.exe is taking 80% cpu
[19:56] <jay> like last weekend
[19:59] <jay> toad__: do you have multiple identities in mutt ?
[19:59] * toad__ enables Hide unsigned messages and Hide messages flagged BAD
[19:59] <jay> send-hooks are for replying to certain ppl
[19:59] <toad__> hopefully that will get rid of the KP brigade...
[20:00] <toad__> heh, it does too... partly anyway
[20:00] <jay> the unsigned kp
[20:01] * toad__ hmmm
[20:01] <toad__> how much effort is involved in implementing queueing?
[20:02] <toad__> for a first draft i don't need the heavy optimisations...
[20:02] <toad__> ah I know
[20:02] <toad__> the precursor rate limiting mods...
[20:03] <toad__> hmmm
[20:03] <toad__> what are the drawbacks in quantising the MRI?
[20:03] <toad__> I mean rounding down to the nearest millisecond?
[20:04] * Diablo-D3 (diablo@dialup-4.156.87.170.Dial1.Boston1.Level3.net) has joined #freenet
[20:05] <Redb3ard> bah, whats the preferred java vm for a 2.4 linux box?
[20:06] <Redb3ard> slackware here, and its not in by default
[20:06] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: people have done well with sun's 1.4
[20:06] <Diablo-D3> well, 1.4.2_05
[20:07] <Redb3ard> thats at java.sun.com?
[20:07] <Diablo-D3> yeah
[20:07] <Diablo-D3> j2re
[20:09] <jay> i might switch to mutt permanently
[20:09] <Diablo-D3> mutt rocks
[20:09] <jay> im sure everyone is relieved
[20:09] <jay> Diablo-D3: it does quite a lot once the muttrc stuff makes sense
[20:09] <Redb3ard> christ sake
[20:10] <Redb3ard> sun of all people only have RPMs available?
[20:10] <jay> Redb3ard: they have tarballs
[20:10] <jay> a .tgz or .tar.gz
[20:10] <Diablo-D3> no
[20:10] <Diablo-D3> sun has tarballs too
[20:11] * Diablo-D3 uses them to make debs
[20:11] <Redb3ard> i cant find them
[20:11] <toad__> okay
[20:11] <toad__> I'm going to deal with the log messages
[20:11] <toad__> and then restart with the MRI changes
[20:11] <toad__> and then commit
[20:11] <toad__> and then go to bed
[20:12] <jay> im going to let the cat outside..
[20:12] <Redb3ard> anyone kind enough to toss me a url, if they know it?
[20:12] <jay> since she can't reach the handle
[20:13] <Diablo-D3> I've asked this question before, but I forgot the answer...
[20:13] <jay> http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html
[20:13] <Diablo-D3> what incoming ports do I need to allow? just listenport?
[20:13] <jay> Redb3ard: you have to choose J2SE v 1.4.2_05 SDK and accept the license
[20:13] <Diablo-D3> jay: he doesnt need the sdk
[20:14] <Diablo-D3> just the runtime
[20:14] <jay> Redb3ard: it starts a session, so you have to do that part or it won't download (ie accept the license)
[20:14] <jay> oh wait
[20:14] <jay> erm
[20:14] <jay> J2SE v 1.4.2_05 JRE
[20:14] <jay> same page
[20:14] <Diablo-D3> J2RE you mean
[20:14] <jay> "Download J2SE JRE"
[20:14] <jay> the JRE is part of J2SE
[20:14] <Diablo-D3> yes, but he doesnt need the entire SDK
[20:14] <jay> it's all on this page: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/download.html
[20:14] <Diablo-D3> just the runtime
[20:15] <jay> Diablo-D3: i know
[20:15] <Redb3ard> no tarballs there
[20:15] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: want me to get you a direct url?
[20:15] <jay> Redb3ard: listen to my instructions
[20:15] <Redb3ard> if you could please, google isnt turning any up either
[20:15] <jay> Redb3ard: go to that page and select "Download J2SE JRE"
[20:15] <Redb3ard> jay, im there
[20:15] <jay> Redb3ard: then accept the license
[20:15] <Redb3ard> and ive accepted the license
[20:15] <Redb3ard> and now im at the download part
[20:15] <jay> under Linux Platform..
[20:15] <Redb3ard> and its offering .rpm and .bin
[20:16] <jay> self-extracting file ...
[20:16] <jay> DL that one
[20:16] <jay> the .bin is what u want
[20:16] <Diablo-D3> no I dont think it is jay
[20:16] <jay> you run it and it *again* asks you to accept the license
[20:16] <Diablo-D3> oh wait it is
[20:16] <jay> Diablo-D3: i *know* it is
[20:16] <jay> i can't debate that
[20:17] <jay> the KRE is *part* of J2SE
[20:17] <Diablo-D3> yeah, I had to look at my own to check
[20:17] <Redb3ard> why not let me run tar fvxz myself?
[20:17] <jay> i've compiled the source myself ;)
[20:17] <Redb3ard> its dumb
[20:17] <Diablo-D3> j2re-1_4_2_05-linux-i586.bin
[20:17] <Diablo-D3> ^ thats what I use
[20:17] <toad__> Minimum
[20:17] <jay> Redb3ard: it's the license thingie
[20:17] <toad__> request interval violated!: Average interval = 2390.1662378049323ms, actual=15,
[20:17] <toad__> but limit is 2692.9178798086036ms
[20:17] <toad__> curious...
[20:17] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: because its kind of lame
[20:17] <jay> Redb3ard: and u have to chmod 700 it too
[20:17] <Redb3ard> bah, like clickthrough licenses mean anything
[20:17] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: if you ran debian, you could deal with that easily
[20:17] <Redb3ard> even if they did, i did that to download it
[20:17] <jay> Diablo-D3: that's the file i directed him to
[20:18] <Diablo-D3> http://192.18.97.50/ECom/EComTicketServlet/BEGINjsecom16.sun.com-11eb9%3A412154ec%3Afdc61caff7a9f8c8/-2147483648/483752679/1/489806/489710/483752679/2ts%2B/westCoastFSEND/j2re-1.4.2_05-oth-JPR/j2re-1.4.2_05-oth-JPR%3A4/j2re-1_4_2_05-linux-i586.bin
[20:18] <jay> how is it easier on debian?
[20:18] <Diablo-D3> tada!
[20:18] <Diablo-D3> jay: theres a program that rips apart java self install bins and turns them into debs
[20:18] <Redb3ard> i think ill do the same, and offer a tarball
[20:18] <Diablo-D3> dont bother
[20:19] <Diablo-D3> freenet hopefully soon will support gjc
[20:19] <jay> Redb3ard: the "ball" is inside the .bin
[20:19] <jay> it's like a self-extracting zip file sort of
[20:19] <jay> i dont think it's hard to do
[20:20] <jay> debian has rules that forbids certain practices according to licenses
[20:20] <Diablo-D3> yeah, thats pretty much what it is
[20:20] <Redb3ard> its not that its hard
[20:20] <Diablo-D3> jay: yeah, thats why it isnt in deb =/
[20:20] <Redb3ard> its that they think they need to make it easy for me
[20:20] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: you wanna help?
[20:20] <Diablo-D3> make freenet work with gjc
[20:20] <jay> Diablo-D3: :) there redistribution clause isn't compatible
[20:20] <Redb3ard> plus, i dont like running binaries that i didnt compile myself
[20:21] <Diablo-D3> jay: no, but they _can_ redistribute the ->deb program
[20:21] <Redb3ard> this thing is smart enough to create its own directory, before unzipping, isnt it?
[20:21] <jay> Diablo-D3: yeah i know.. ive been running debian for years
[20:21] <Diablo-D3> http://z42.de/debian/
[20:21] <Diablo-D3> use j2se-package from there
[20:22] <jay> Diablo-D3: i have 3 jdk's installed
[20:22] <jay> id rather manage them manually
[20:22] <Diablo-D3> and just do "j2se-package j2re-someversion-linux-arch.bin" and *poof* you have a deb.
[20:22] * lolo-laptop (~lostlogic@68.251.84.226) Quit ("Client exiting")
[20:22] <jay> i do something like that with the kernel
[20:22] <Diablo-D3> yeah, so do I
[20:22] <jay> make-kpkg
[20:22] <Diablo-D3> make-kpkg
[20:22] <Diablo-D3> hah
[20:23] <jay> heh
[20:23] <Diablo-D3> this is make-jpkg ;)
[20:23] <jay> sounds like itr
[20:23] <jay> i've been here all day.. i need a break
[20:23] <jay> my eyes hurt
[20:24] <jay> until next time..
[20:24] * jay (jcl@ool-18bf6dac.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (".")
[20:24] <Redb3ard> great
[20:24] <Redb3ard> no INSTALL file
[20:24] <Diablo-D3> um, Redb3ard?
[20:24] <Redb3ard> :/
[20:24] <Diablo-D3> install for what?
[20:24] <Redb3ard> java runtime enviro
[20:24] <Diablo-D3> you dont need one
[20:24] <Diablo-D3> just run the bin file
[20:27] <Redb3ard> nope
[20:27] <Redb3ard> didnt fix it for mozilla
[20:28] <Redb3ard> nice going sun
[20:28] <Redb3ard> no wonder you're a hasbeen
[20:29] <toad__> Redb3ard: you need to install the plugin..
[20:30] <toad__> there's a howto file on that somewhere...
[20:30] <Redb3ard> found it
[20:30] <Redb3ard> a symlink
[20:30] <Redb3ard> this is why it would be nice for the asshats to include an "install" file
[20:30] <Redb3ard> i thought that was fairly standard
[20:30] <Redb3ard> even my shitty software has such
[20:31] <Diablo-D3> yeah well
[20:31] <Diablo-D3> java is dead
[20:31] <Diablo-D3> and freenet sucks because its written in java
[20:31] <Diablo-D3> did I mention I hate java?
[20:31] <toad__> java is very much alive. whether it should be is another question. however eventually freenet will run on GCJ
[20:31] <Redb3ard> well, the idea of crossplatform by emulating a non-existent machine is pretty hair-brained
[20:32] <Redb3ard> GCJ is ?
[20:32] <toad__> is it? it's very old...
[20:32] <toad__> Redb3ard: GNU Java Compiler (to native code)
[20:32] <Redb3ard> ah
[20:32] <Redb3ard> thats interesting
[20:32] <Redb3ard> whats with the out of order consonants?
[20:32] * supermannn (~kdfjk@216.32.201.125) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[20:32] <toad__> GNU Compiler for Java?
[20:33] <Redb3ard> GNU finally decided it needed to be even snootier, so its doing french-style acronyms?
[20:33] <Diablo-D3> gcj rocks
[20:33] <Diablo-D3> the compiler, not the acronym
[20:33] <Redb3ard> le compilier java de GNU
[20:34] <Redb3ard> gnu does do kickass compilers
[20:34] <Redb3ard> everyone ridicules them about hurd.... but damn, a good c compiler is 50% of a unix, in my opin
[20:35] <toad__> well, they're not as fast as intel's
[20:35] <Diablo-D3> 25%.
[20:35] <toad__> i mean optimization wise
[20:35] <toad__> even on AMD chips :|
[20:36] <Diablo-D3> icc has issues though
[20:36] <Diablo-D3> it borks on some code that gcc works fine on
[20:36] <toad__> the main issue is it's commercial :)
[20:36] <Redb3ard> :/
[20:36] <Diablo-D3> except its free for linux non commercial use
[20:36] <Redb3ard> the java bin "installer" didnt install
[20:37] <toad__> Diablo-D3: the conditions are pretty strict, that's not very useful
[20:37] <toad__> anyway it's not OSS, and you don't get the source
[20:37] <toad__> it's not free software by any stretch of the imagination
[20:37] <Redb3ard> the only place i can find the stupid .so is in the directory it created
[20:37] <Diablo-D3> well, the restrictions arnt so bad
[20:37] <toad__> Diablo-D3: they are... we couldn't use it, for example, because we make money
[20:37] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:37] <toad__> we handle money
[20:37] <Diablo-D3> its basically, "if you develop or compile foss, you can use it, otherwise, fuck off"
[20:38] <toad__> nah, it's worse than that
[20:38] <toad__> if you develop or compile FOSS and you never handle any money for it, you can use it
[20:38] <Diablo-D3> its not like it matters, btw
[20:38] <Diablo-D3> its only useful for x86
[20:38] <Diablo-D3> and it borks some code
[20:38] <Diablo-D3> so it's actual use is quite limited
[20:39] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) has joined #freenet
[20:39] <Redb3ard> guys, shouldnt the bin have installed everything?
[20:39] <Diablo-D3> hey its greycat
[20:39] <iip_i2p> <Newsbyte> http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=FDBB4BE8-5400-4244-8D83-2183E3E9E425
[20:40] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: yup
[20:40] <Diablo-D3> Redb3ard: cant find 'java'?
[20:41] <Diablo-D3> ln -s /usr/lib/j2re1.4-sun/bin/java /usr/bin/java
[20:41] <Diablo-D3> (or whatever your path is)
[20:41] <Redb3ard> it didnt create a /usr/lib directory
[20:42] <Diablo-D3> maybe /usr/lib/local
[20:45] * tyesinclair (~tyesincla@170.252.64.1) has left #freenet
[20:46] <toad__> /opt ?
[20:46] <Diablo-D3> Im pretty sure not /opt
[20:47] <Redb3ard> nah, hasnt done anything except extract all the src files
[20:47] <Redb3ard> did i grab the wrong package?
[20:47] <Diablo-D3> I dont think so
[20:47] <toad__> Redb3ard: is this the bin?
[20:47] <toad__> put it somewhere
[20:47] <toad__> and then make the link...
[20:48] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[20:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[20:50] <Redb3ard> so the thing doesnt even install itself?
[20:50] <Redb3ard> nice
[20:50] <Diablo-D3> man
[20:51] <Diablo-D3> I wish freenet used gjc
[20:52] <greycat> 1) get java*.bin thing. 2) cd /usr/local; sh java*.bin 3) lie to the EULA. 4) ln -s /usr/local/j2whatever/bin/java /usr/local/bin/java
[20:52] <Diablo-D3> hey greycat
[20:53] * greycat waves
[20:53] <toad__> Diablo-D3: well, it's a matter of priorities
[20:53] <toad__> I haven't managed to find the time and neither has dalibor
[20:53] <toad__> to fix freenet-on-kaffe
[20:53] <greycat> toad's got way more work than he can handle without adding "fix kaffe and gcj"
[20:53] <Diablo-D3> what does kaffee have to do with it?
[20:53] <toad__> Diablo-D3: Kaffe and GCJ share the same class library
[20:54] <toad__> if it works on Kaffe very soon it will work on GCJ
[20:54] <Diablo-D3> ahh
[20:54] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:54] <Diablo-D3> I didnt know that
[20:54] <toad__> greycat: IMHO it's important that we eventually fix it though
[20:55] <Diablo-D3> yeah, its important that 'we' move away from sun's jvm as coon as possible
[20:56] <toad__> not just ideologically; it affects deployment, and our userbase
[20:57] <greycat> <troll> of course, you could move away from sun java very easily by moving away from Java... </troll>
[20:57] <Diablo-D3> greycat: I wanted to say that soo bad.
[20:58] <toad__> lol greycat, "very easily" - sure :)
[20:59] <toad__> yeah, freenet is needed yesterday, and changing languages will not make it work. so we abandon development for a year just to port it to c++. really great idea.
[20:59] <Diablo-D3> eww
[20:59] <Diablo-D3> c++ sucks
[21:00] <toad__> Diablo-D3: we need a popular language, and IMHO freenet is suited to OOP
[21:00] <greycat> you weren't supposed to take it *seriously*!
[21:00] * lostlogic (~lostlogic@node-402418b2.mdw.onnet.us.uu.net) has joined #freenet
[21:00] <Diablo-D3> 3681 1 0:53.73 0.0 43.4 27 10 S 323m 228m 94m 1000 java
[21:00] <Diablo-D3> ^ jesus christ
[21:00] <toad__> what's the -Xmx ? also ignore the virt
[21:00] <Diablo-D3> 323m virt, 228m swap, 94m res for freenet
[21:00] <toad__> the RSS is what matters
[21:00] <Diablo-D3> toad__: yeah I know
[21:00] * toad__ unsure what swap means
[21:00] <Diablo-D3> I only listen to res.
[21:01] <Diablo-D3> swap means how much can be swapped
[21:01] <Diablo-D3> its sort of a useless number
[21:01] <toad__> 94M res isn't that bad
[21:01] <Diablo-D3> -Xmx is default
[21:01] <toad__> java default or start-freenet.sh default?
[21:01] <Diablo-D3> start-freenet.sh default
[21:01] <Diablo-D3> 128m I think
[21:03] * sanity (~ian@81-178-89-164.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #freenet
[21:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o sanity
[21:04] <Diablo-D3> so, which ports do I have to forward? just listenport?
[21:04] <greycat> yes
[21:06] * toad__ commits 60199
[21:09] <toad__> oh
[21:09] <toad__> anyone running unstable?
[21:09] <toad__> I want to do some push/pull tests...
[21:10] * verl is willing...
[21:10] <toad__> verl: node address and port?
[21:11] <toad__> it's open to me?
[21:11] * Diablo-D3 gives up on freenet again
[21:11] <toad__> Diablo-D3: when we can deliver instant gratification we'll tell you :)
[21:11] <greycat> yet... you're still here. so it's just a temporary separation, not a divorce...
[21:12] <toad__> but as I said, best results come after a few days
[21:12] <Diablo-D3> few days? of what?
[21:12] <toad__> running
[21:13] <Diablo-D3> running!?
[21:13] <Diablo-D3> Im on dialup =(
[21:13] <toad__> ah
[21:13] <toad__> :<
[21:13] <toad__> where are you, africa?
[21:13] <toad__> :)
[21:13] <Diablo-D3> Yes, I am the son of a now deceased wealthy buisness man.
[21:14] <toad__> bbl zzz
[21:14] <Diablo-D3> Could I send you several million dollars?
[21:14] <toad__> heh
[21:14] * Diablo-D3 lives in Maine, btw.
[21:15] <toad__> in the countryside?
[21:15] <verl> toad: sorry was away. now, you mean this: 217.208.51.165:27719? i think i am open to everyone :)
[21:16] <toad__> verl: hi
[21:16] <toad__> verl: what's the FCP port?
[21:16] <toad__> 27719 is the FNP port, right?
[21:17] <verl> clientPort is 8481
[21:17] <toad__> and btw i get conn refused on it :)
[21:17] <verl> and listenPort 27719
[21:17] <toad__> you need fcpHosts=127.0.0.1/8,82.32.16.91
[21:17] <Diablo-D3> *poof*
[21:18] <toad__> and if necessary forward 8481
[21:18] * Diablo-D3 (diablo@dialup-4.156.87.170.Dial1.Boston1.Level3.net) has left #freenet
[21:18] * toad__ awaits confirmation...
[21:19] <verl> toad: need to restart after change?
[21:19] <toad__> verl: yes
[21:19] <toad__> then wait until you have 30+ open conns
[21:19] <toad__> then tell me
[21:20] * oierw (mathew@cpe-69-75-112-240.hawaii.rr.com) has joined #freenet
[21:21] <Addos> toad: I can't get more than 12
[21:21] <toad__> Addos: hmmm
[21:22] <Addos> 3 connections
[21:22] <verl> toad: i tell you now
[21:22] <toad__> verl: is up, with lots of conns?
[21:22] <toad__> Addos: can you receive DCC?
[21:22] <verl> yes, 60, but not many transfers
[21:22] <Addos> toad: nope
[21:22] <Addos> can you email me?
[21:22] <toad__> Addos: sure
[21:24] <toad__> verl: connection refused
[21:24] <toad__> 217.208.51.165:8481
[21:24] <toad__> you firewalled?
[21:24] <verl> hm, maybe winxp has its internal one on...
[21:25] <toad__> you sure of your ip?
[21:26] <verl> yes
[21:26] <toad__> verl: any idea what the problem is?
[21:27] <verl> toad: winxp :)
[21:27] <toad__> verl: any chance of fixing it?
[21:28] <verl> toad: not sure i'll make it tonight
[21:37] <Addos> ok
[21:37] <Addos> loading your seed node
[21:37] <Addos> already have 5 connections
[21:43] <verl> toad: the internal firewall is not turned on, and since i have no other such software, there is no need to forward the port?
[21:46] <toad__> no need to forward the port
[21:46] <toad__> but still conn refused
[21:47] <verl> and there is no % in line i altered to give you access
[21:48] <verl> perhaps if i install a firewall i will get better overview of ports and such
[22:06] * verl (~verlverl@h165n2fls33o877.telia.com) Quit ()
[22:14] * greycat (rfc1413@wooledge.org) Quit ("Lick Bush in '04")
[22:16] * verl (~verlverl@h165n2fls33o877.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[22:29] * FoxFire (scgmille@user-0ccsu98.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #freenet
[22:49] * FoxFire (scgmille@user-0ccsu98.cable.mindspring.com) has left #freenet
[23:06] * verl (~verlverl@h165n2fls33o877.telia.com) Quit ()
[23:11] * verl (~verlverl@h165n2fls33o877.telia.com) has joined #freenet
[23:18] * hirvox (~hirvox@cs181027153.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
These logs were automatically created by Jay Oliveri with his gimp hapi on irc.freenode.net.